41 réponses à ce sujet

[Rynas]

UPDATE:

 

It appears that in some games (possibly saves where your mage had Chaotic Focus before installing Trespasser), Flaming Array/Searing Glyph does damage as if you had Chaotic Focus and full barrier, even if you have dropped Chaotic Focus.

 

For other games, Chaotic Focus adds no bonus damage to Flaming Array.

 

In both cases, Chaotic Focus has no effect on Flaming Array.  Casting Flaming Array also does not consume any barrier, even when you have Chaotic Focus.

 

Original post below:

 

I just did a bunch of testing, and I'm hoping someone else can confirm if this is happening or if my game is borked.  The TL;DR version:

 

1. If you don't have Chaotic Focus, then Flaming Array and Searing Glyph both hit as if you had Chaotic Focus and full barrier.

 

2. If you do have Chaotic Focus, the Flaming Array always hits as if you had full barrier, but Searing Glyph does less damage if you don't have an active barrier.

 

3. Both spells can do only 1 damage if the enemy is very close to you when it detonates.

 

My tests were done with a level 17 KE vs. Snoufleurs in Emprise du Lion.  Nightmare Mode, some trials on (Even Ground, Walk Softly, Rub Some Dirt on It, Grizzly End).  I reset all skills and then took only Barrier and enough of the Inferno tree to get Fire Mine + upgrade.  For the Chaotic Focus tests, I just added Chaotic Focus.

 

I tried each combo 4-8 times.  Excluding the times when Fire Mine did only 1 damage, here were my results:

 

No Chaotic Focus, no barrier:

Flaming Array: 4k non-crit, 9-10k crit

Searing Glyph: 4k non-crit, 9-10k crit

 

No Chaotic Focus, full barrier:

Flaming Array: 4k non-crit, 9-10k crit

Searing Glyph: 4k non-crit, 9-10k crit

 

Chaotic Focus, no barrier:

Flaming Array: 4k non-crit, 9-10k crit

Searing Glyph: 1.7k non-crit, 4k crit

 

Chaotic Focus, full barrier:

Flaming Array: 4k non-crit, 9-10k crit

Searing Glyph: 4k non-crit, 9-10k crit

 

Based on these results, it looks like Chaotic Focus can only make things worse for Fire Mine, and that's only if you use Searing Glyph.

 

Also, I was able to reproduce the "1 damage" bug pretty consistently, by staying as close as I could to the mob when it detonated.  This seems like it would be more of a problem for Flaming Array, since you often cast Searing Glyph at a distance.

 

I can't recall noticing anything like this before Trespasser, especially the 1 damage bug.  Can anyone else please check this to see if I'm going nuts?

[PapaCharlie9]

Well that sucks! I'll try to repro your key results today. I'll do with all Trials off and with all 3 alternatives of Barrier, to see if that makes a difference. I'll do with an RM instead of KE also (happens to be handy).

[tcun44]

I just did a bunch of testing, and I'm hoping someone else can confirm if this is happening or if my game is borked.  The TL;DR version:

 

1. If you don't have Chaotic Focus, then Flaming Array and Searing Glyph both hit as if you had Chaotic Focus and full barrier.

 

2. If you do have Chaotic Focus, the Flaming Array always hits as if you had full barrier, but Searing Glyph does less damage if you don't have an active barrier.

 

3. Both spells can do only 1 damage if the enemy is very close to you when it detonates.

 

My tests were done with a level 17 KE vs. Snoufleurs in Emprise du Lion.  Nightmare Mode, some trials on (Even Ground, Walk Softly, Rub Some Dirt on It, Grizzly End).  I reset all skills and then took only Barrier and enough of the Inferno tree to get Fire Mine + upgrade.  For the Chaotic Focus tests, I just added Chaotic Focus.

 

I tried each combo 4-8 times.  Excluding the times when Fire Mine did only 1 damage, here were my results:

 

No Chaotic Focus, no barrier:

Flaming Array: 4k non-crit, 9-10k crit

Searing Glyph: 4k non-crit, 9-10k crit

 

No Chaotic Focus, full barrier:

Flaming Array: 4k non-crit, 9-10k crit

Searing Glyph: 4k non-crit, 9-10k crit

 

Chaotic Focus, no barrier:

Flaming Array: 4k non-crit, 9-10k crit

Searing Glyph: 1.7k non-crit, 4k crit

 

Chaotic Focus, full barrier:

Flaming Array: 4k non-crit, 9-10k crit

Searing Glyph: 4k non-crit, 9-10k crit

 

Based on these results, it looks like Chaotic Focus can only make things worse for Fire Mine, and that's only if you use Searing Glyph.

 

Also, I was able to reproduce the "1 damage" bug pretty consistently, by staying as close as I could to the mob when it detonated.  This seems like it would be more of a problem for Flaming Array, since you often cast Searing Glyph at a distance.

 

I can't recall noticing anything like this before Trespasser, especially the 1 damage bug.  Can anyone else please check this to see if I'm going nuts?

 

I can confirm the 1 damage also happens with Flaming Array. Happened a bunch as I made my way thru Trespasser. Damage on Flaming Array was wildly inconsistent. Had a few times where it hit over 17k and a bunch of times where it hit as '1'.  I had Chaotic Focus turned on- if I get time- I'll try an old save and drop chaotic focus.

[Rynas]

Thanks both of you - would be great to be able to confirm/deny this.

[stop_him]

Edit. (I assumed it was Flaming Array. Turned out to be the warrior skill)

Modifié par stop_him, 09 octobre 2015 - 04:17 .

[PapaCharlie9]

Well, I got different results, and some are just as bizarre.

I ended up using KE (Vivienne) after all, Level 26, Emerald Graves L19 Bronto, NM with no Trials. On PC. KE had max 600 health.  NONE of the KE passives or skills were purchased. Only barrier and the necessary Inferno skills/passives to get FM. Also a low tier 20 base damage staff with no buffs was used.

I could not repro the "don't have Chaotic Focus" effect. CF added the expected amount of extra damage if Barrier was active. If no CF, damage was the expected lower amount. (Looking at my notes, I do not think I tried Barrier active with no CF, though. All of these tests with no CF were also with no Barrier.) EDIT: I retested with Barrier active, no change, still could not repro.

I could not repro the "Flaming Array damage as if CF + full Barrier, but without Barrier" effect. Flaming Array behaved exactly the same as FM with no upgrade and no CF, insofar as damage amount without Barrier went. I'm going to have to redo this test, I don't think I had CF enabled.

EDIT: I redid the test and made sure CF was bought and no barrier and I still could not repro. Damage level was the same as non-upgraded FM with no CF and no Barrier.

I sort of reproduced the 1 damage effect, but it only happened sometimes, and in one instance, I got both expected damage and the 1 damage at the same time. Two different numbers showed, the same way two numbers show for the Searing Glyph, one for FM damage, one for burning. The second number was 1 in one trial only.

In many trials, standing practically on top of the target, I got full expected damage for both SG and FA. I tried all four facings (front, back, left, right), no consistent result though.

Of about 10 trials, the cases where I got a "1" were:

* Both full damage and a "1" as mentioned
* One when the Bronto came back and stepped on an old Flaming Array mine. It had triggered the first two for full damage, but upon coming back to the third, it only did 1. I was right next to it on all 3 cases.
* One time when I cast Flaming Array directly onto the target while standing next to it. I was right behind it and it was the middle mine that went off.

Repeating all of the above got full damage.

 

EDIT: Nevermind the rest.

BONUS: There was one additional effect which is actually a good one!

KE had Searing Glyph and Chaotic Focus.

I first cast Barrier on myself, then cast Searing Glyph on the target, and I did not get close. Casting the mine only took 50% of my barrier! But I still got the full damage amount.

I repeated the test with Energetic Defense, the Barrier upgrade that gives you 5 secs of full barrier, then a more rapid decay. When I cast FM immediately after barrier, only 50% of barrier was consumed (was true regardless of whether Barrier was upgraded or not and which upgrade). Next time, I waited until the barrier started to decay before casting FM.  In that situation, everything was as expected. All of barrier was consumed by CF and Searing Glyph did full damage.

[Rynas]

Wow.  Ok, I just tried this with Vivienne (no gear equipped), and I actually see no effect from Chaotic Focus on Flaming Array.  Damage is ~300 with no barrier, ~300 with full barrier.

 

On my Inquisitor, also with zero gear equipped, I get ~800 damage with Flaming Array, with and without Chaotic Focus, and regardless of barrier.  The only time I get less than that is with Searing Array + Chaotic Focus + no Barrier.  Just to show I'm not completely crazy, here's a video, with no gear and no points except the bare minimums:

 

Do you have an Inquisitor you could use to test?  It might just be an Inquisitor problem.  Hell, it might just be a problem with MY Inquisitor.

 

[Edit] Here are the actual numbers:

 

FA, no CF: 834

FA, CF, full Barrier: 888

SG, no CF: 785

SG, CF, full Barrier: 894

SG, CF, no Barrier: 300

[Dabrikishaw]

This is really bizarre. Is Chaotic Focus bugged now?

[Rynas]

I first cast Barrier on myself, then cast Searing Glyph on the target, and I did not get close. Casting the mine only took 50% of my barrier! But I still got the full damage amount.

I repeated the test with Energetic Defense, the Barrier upgrade that gives you 5 secs of full barrier, then a more rapid decay. When I cast FM immediately after barrier, only 50% of barrier was consumed (was true regardless of whether Barrier was upgraded or not and which upgrade). Next time, I waited until the barrier started to decay before casting FM.  In that situation, everything was as expected. All of barrier was consumed by CF and Searing Glyph did full damage.

 

Wait, Chaotic Focus is supposed to consume all of your barrier?  Last I remember, it was just supposed to use up half of whatever you had left.

[PapaCharlie9]

 

Wow.  Ok, I just tried this with Vivienne (no gear equipped), and I actually see no effect from Chaotic Focus on Flaming Array.  Damage is ~300 with no barrier, ~300 with full barrier.

 

On my Inquisitor, also with zero gear equipped, I get ~800 damage with Flaming Array, with and without Chaotic Focus, and regardless of barrier.  The only time I get less than that is with Searing Array + Chaotic Focus + no Barrier.  Just to show I'm not completely crazy, here's a video, with no gear and no points except the bare minimums:

 

 

I don't think you are crazy, but to confirm, you should try different targets. Maybe there is something about Snoufleur?

 

I tried both the Bronto and Freemen of various ranks, got the same results, everything as expected.

 

I do have an IQ KE I could try.

 

Wait, Chaotic Focus is supposed to consume all of your barrier?  Last I remember, it was just supposed to use up half of whatever you had left.

 

I thought it was all, but honestly I never paid attention before Patch 10, so maybe it was always 50%?

[Rynas]

It's not the target that matters - I showed Snoufleurs because they're easy to target, but it's everything.

 

It's also just totally screwy that with the exact same gear and abilities, my inquisitor KE does completely different damage from Vivienne.  Did you manage to try with an Inquisitor?

[PapaCharlie9]

It's not the target that matters - I showed Snoufleurs because they're easy to target, but it's everything.

 

It's also just totally screwy that with the exact same gear and abilities, my inquisitor KE does completely different damage from Vivienne.  Did you manage to try with an Inquisitor?

Then it must be Trials. I did my tests with NO TRIALS enabled.

 

Not yet, might be a whlie.

[PapaCharlie9]

You are right. I looked up the description of CF. It says half your barrier. So all that's new is if you use the Energetic Defense upgrade on Barrier AND wait until the decay starts, you use the full barrier. It  might just be because the decay is so fast, you lose 50% in the same amount of time it takes to cast FM.

[Rynas]

One other thought: When did you start that playthrough?  Mine started around Patch 2-3, then upgraded directly to Patch 10 and Trespasser.  I wonder if something got corrupted because the saves were so old.

[Garry Leonard]

There are a few mage buggs.

 

Ice armor still doesn't proc consistently. Not that big and issue as no one uses the ice tree.

 

Energetic Barrier: If the target's barrier is already decaying than it wont stay

 

Charged Distrubtion for the disrubtion field does nothing. 

 

Winter's Ruin doesn't always proc

 

As stated above Fire Mine some times does 1 damage

[ottffsse]

Just a confirm: high teens level necro firemine hits as expected, I had about 4,2k +/- crits with fa upgrade , with chaotic focus I got it to go up to 5,5k+ on average. 1 damage was only dealt to stuff immune to fire with walk softly enabled on nm.

[PapaCharlie9]

Okay, I tried with IQ KE, no difference from my first test results. So I went to EdL and did the same tests on Snoufleur. I was not able to repro any of the effects in your video, except for 1 damage, which did happen more frequently, but still not all of the time.

I think it's Trials. I did my tests on NM with no trials enabled. All of my PTs were current as of Patch 9.
 
One thing I did notice when I went back and verified with Bronto vs. Viv, is that FA with CF and full barrier doesn't get any bonus, and, my barrier did not drop by 50% when FA was cast. I guess I tested FA only without barrier in the first set to see if I could get the bonus effect you were seeing. I had switched to SG when I did barrier on. That might be an intentional undocumented "balance" trade-off, since having 3 CF buffed fire mines is kind of gross.
 

Just a confirm: high teens level necro firemine hits as expected, I had about 4,2k +/- crits with fa upgrade , with chaotic focus I got it to go up to 5,5k+ on average. 1 damage was only dealt to stuff immune to fire with walk softly enabled on nm.

When you say "with chaotic focus", do you mean with or without a barrier active?

[ottffsse]

Barrier was active but I have to say it may NOT require barrier to be active but need further tests. What I definately can say is taking chaotic focus uped the damage as expected. Actually when I used barrier it increased the damage. But this is from actual gameplay not tests and I get factors like 50% flanking damage bonus and power of the dead to consider but those 2 thngs in my experiance just add to the 4,2/5,5k base I stated.

[Rynas]

If your damage with no barrier is 4.2k, your damage with Chaotic Focus and full barrier should be around 10k.  So it's likely that the increase to 5.5k is due to some other bonus, like Conductive Current or something.  Or you're casting FA when your barrier is low.

 

 

One thing I did notice when I went back and verified with Bronto vs. Viv, is that FA with CF and full barrier doesn't get any bonus, and, my barrier did not drop by 50% when FA was cast. I guess I tested FA only without barrier in the first set to see if I could get the bonus effect you were seeing. I had switched to SG when I did barrier on. That might be an intentional undocumented "balance" trade-off, since having 3 CF buffed fire mines is kind of gross.

 

Ok - that's the behavior I'm seeing with Vivienne.  I also loaded up a very old (pre-Skyhold) save before I ever took CF, and it's the same thing.

 

So it seems the latest story is:

 

1. The behavior in my video is possibly specific to my playthrough, since nobody else seems to be seeing it.

 

2. Flaming Array isn't affected by Chaotic Focus at all.

 

That kind of sucks...

[Rynas]

I should add that either way, Chaotic Focus does nothing for Flaming Array.  So if Flaming Array is your only fire spell, then don't take Chaotic Focus!

 

Do they test like, ANY of this stuff before they release it?

[ottffsse]

Wow. Ok, I just tried this with Vivienne (no gear equipped), and I actually see no effect from Chaotic Focus on Flaming Array. Damage is ~300 with no barrier, ~300 with full barrier.

On my Inquisitor, also with zero gear equipped, I get ~800 damage with Flaming Array, with and without Chaotic Focus, and regardless of barrier. The only time I get less than that is with Searing Array + Chaotic Focus + no Barrier. Just to show I'm not completely crazy, here's a video, with no gear and no points except the bare minimums:
https://www.youtube....h?v=uCrkjr3OOco

Do you have an Inquisitor you could use to test? It might just be an Inquisitor problem. Hell, it might just be a problem with MY Inquisitor.

[Edit] Here are the actual numbers:

FA, no CF: 834
FA, CF, full Barrier: 888
SG, no CF: 785
SG, CF, full Barrier: 894
SG, CF, no Barrier: 300

OK just keep in mind your barrier strength is based on your staff damage and with no high dps staff your barrier is tiny which means it does not add anything to a cf firemine.

[Rynas]

OK just keep in mind your barrier strength is based on your staff damage and with no high dps staff your barrier is tiny which means it does not add anything to a cf firemine.

 

Not true.  Fire Mine without CF does ~300 damage with no gear equipped.  Fire Mine with CF and full barrier does ~800.  It multiplies the damage by around 2.5-3x at full barrier.  When it's working properly, that is.

[PapaCharlie9]

OK just keep in mind your barrier strength is based on your staff damage and with no high dps staff your barrier is tiny which means it does not add anything to a cf firemine.

 

Not true.  Fire Mine without CF does ~300 damage with no gear equipped.  Fire Mine with CF and full barrier does ~800.  It multiplies the damage by around 2.5-3x at full barrier.

Also not correct. I'm pretty sure barrier is based on max health. The description pretty much says that, "an additional health bar". You don't have to take my word for it, do a before/after CF test where all you change is equipping an accessory that increases your max health. Just don't use Flaming Array.

 

The numbers I was seeing during tests proves this out.

 

Non-upgraded Fire Mine: 1600% = 16.0

Base damage: 20

Max health: 600

Chaotic Focus: 50% of max health = 300

 

Without CF: (20)(16.0) = 320

With CF: (20)(16.0) + 300 = 620

 

Those were very close to the numbers I was seeing. All damage gets a +/-5% variance, and the differences I was seeing are attributable to that or to crit.

[Rynas]

No.  Barrier is based purely on base weapon damage:

 

max_barrier = (base_damage + 10) * 48 - 300

 

I and a few others discovered this both through testing and looking at the game scripts, a long time ago (see "General Mechanics"): http://forum.bioware...mbat-mechanics/

 

[Edit] Maybe I misread what you were saying...just to clarify:

 

- Barrier magnitude is based on base weapon damage (no attack, etc. taken into account)

- Chaotic Focus bonus is based on barrier percentage, i.e. 2% bonus (stacks with attack) per 1% barrier you have at casting time.

 

If you had 0% attack (which I don't think is possible) and no research items turned in, Chaotic Focus would give you a 3x bonus at full barrier, regardless of what your max barrier amount is.  (Except with bugged abilities.)

[PapaCharlie9]

No.  Barrier is based purely on base weapon damage:

 

max_barrier = (base_damage + 10) * 48 - 300

 

I and a few others discovered this both through testing and looking at the game scripts, a long time ago (see "General Mechanics"): http://forum.bioware...mbat-mechanics/

 

[Edit] Maybe I misread what you were saying...just to clarify:

 

- Barrier magnitude is based on base weapon damage (no attack, etc. taken into account)

- Chaotic Focus bonus is based on barrier percentage, i.e. 2% bonus (stacks with attack) per 1% barrier you have at casting time.

 

If you had 0% attack (which I don't think is possible) and no research items turned in, Chaotic Focus would give you a 3x bonus at full barrier, regardless of what your max barrier amount is.  (Except with bugged abilities.)

 

 

I stand corrected about max barrier and fixed my post. It was  just a coincidence that +300 was close to 2x.

 

For CF bonus, that formula does seem to come close to my actual observed damage numbers. IQ KE only had 10% attack, so the numbers I saw were within the +/-5% variance.

 

barrier percentage at casting time = 100

CF bonus = 100/2 * 2% = 100% = 1.0

 

expected damage with bonus = (20)(16)(1 + (CF bonus + Attack%)) = (20)(16)(1 + (1.0 + 0.10)) = 672

 

That's a bit high from the observed 580-620ish, but I'm not sure what the armor rating of the targets were. They weren't zero (except the Snoufluer), so getting numbers lower than the theoretical would make sense.