141 réponses à ce sujet

[Korva]

He's not a person because he's a mind reading fade spirit. Duh.

 

This still doesn't make sense.

 

Compassion does not a human make. My dog showed freaking compassion and I wouldn't claim it was a person anymore than I would claim spirit cole was.

 

Show me a dog who is self-aware and articulate and I would say it should be regarded as a person as well. I certainly wouldn't call it a thing or revile it so vehemently.

 

And you're making the decision for Cole to become more spirit like than human, something he expressly tells you he doesn't want. He clearly sets out on the path to kill that man, and you interfere with that. I don't see the difference between you making the decision for cole to reject his humanity and the templars severing emotions from a mage.

 

BOTH choices prevent Cole from doing what he wants in that moment. That is the one thing Solas and Varric explicitly agree on. And it is a damn good thing, too, because he would have broken himself into a demon otherwise.

 

Cole never says anything about wanting to be human. He wants to help. If anything, he speaks about being a spirit and wanting/hoping to be a spirit (rather than a demon) several times.

 

He cannot love, because he is only compassion. He cannot be angry, because he is only compassion. He cannot be happy, because he is only compassion.

 

Where does that impression even come from? He is explicitly happy. He feels joy, relief, curiosity, friendship, gratitude, regret, defiance. He plays cards with his friends. He begins to grasp humor for the first time. He harshly psychs himself up for combat because of how hard it is for him to fight and kill. His nature influences most of what he says and does, but it's not a simplistic tiny box: it plays into so many other emotions, and he resolves conflicts within himself about what needs to be done when his purpose pulls him in different directions.

 

And yet Solas could not bind Cole, which says more about how little Solas actually knows about the nature of spirits.

 

Did you even play the quest? Solas angrily and vehemently refuses to even consider binding Cole. Far from being either ignorant or incompetent, Solas knows exactly what will help. The amulet we acquire exists to protect Cole from being bound, even by a mage of Corypheus' power. The reason why it doesn't work at first is that "our" Cole is not whole: all this time, he's been shackled to the suffering caused by the original Cole's death. When he realizes how deep that suffering runs in the templar, he lets go of the anger and hate, of the desire for revenge. His forgiveness frees them both.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Not being hostile towards you, just expressing my viewpoint and how I view your decision. If you think it is hostile, then it is a reflection of how hostile I feel your decision is. 

 

And you're making the decision for Cole to become more spirit like than human, something he expressly tells you he doesn't want. He clearly sets out on the path to kill that man, and you interfere with that. I don't see the difference between you making the decision for cole to reject his humanity and the templars severing emotions from a mage. You're both destroying their identities as entities. Cole is now, as you say, just the embodiment of an emotion. He cannot love, because he is only compassion. He cannot be angry, because he is only compassion. He cannot be happy, because he is only compassion.

 

 

 

 

And yet Solas could not bind Cole, which says more about how little Solas actually knows about the nature of spirits. What really matters here is Cole's will. Not how Solas defines Cole. And he wanted to kill that man. He made the decision, and you make Solas interfere with that. 

 

Ask yourself if Cole actually enjoys the possibility of being bound. He doesn't. 

 

 

 

Cole is not a spirit of compassion at that point in the game. It's why Solas cannot bind him, because he has "special qualities" that prevent him from doing so. 

I've gone over this previously in this post, but you've already perverted Cole's will by not letting him kill that man. By not respecting that decision, you've taken agency away from him. So you're not actually letting Cole do what he wants. You're deciding who he is for him. 

 

You do realize that Varric interferes with Cole's murder just as much as Solas does, right? In a different way, but that is not an argument at all. Cole wants to change so that he can't be bound by a hostile mage anymore. It is not a change forced on him.

 

The Inquisitor ends up deciding how he changes, either by letting Varric hand him a jammed Bianca or having Solas make him forgive the man. The plan is never to let Cole go through with the murder because ''that's what he wants''. The plan is to ensure Cole lets go of such sentiments and is unable to be bound against his will anymore. Both making him human and making him spirit achieves this goal, quite explicitely, and he never states a clear preference for either states of being. 

 

Using your flawed logic, doing the quest at all robs Cole of his agency, because in both cases you stop him from killing the ex-Templar. Except Cole actually asks you to change him, quite passionately at that. So what is one to do, in order to make him keep his agency according to you?

[Ryzaki]

This still doesn't make sense.

 

Show me a dog who is self-aware and articulate and I would say it should be regarded as a person as well. I certainly wouldn't call it a thing or revile it so vehemently.

 

Not sure why you insist on referring to spirit Cole as a person when he of all would be the first to say he isn't. He's a spirit. Justice wasn't a person. Cole isn't a person. Wynne's faith spirit wasn't a person. It's a spirit.

 

Cole can be as articulate as he wants but doesn't make him a person and that doesn't change until he becomes human cole. Otherwise he's a spirit or something in between.

[Vordish]

I wouldn't have even known that Krem would get together with the bard(It is the bard that Cole gets with if he is human, right?) if Cole went spirit. No regrets on my part.

 

Besides, Krem is a female masquerading as a male and no amount of changing the outside will alter that fact. Genetics prove this. Krem essentially admits to this by the fact that if you ask "HER" if she would be willing to "CHANGE" all the way she tells you flat out that she would not. Give her a sock and shes happy.

 

She likes the appearance of acting like a male and she likes flaunting herself outside of the established norm of her own society. This is also why the Qun was liked by her.

 

Krem is a liberal/progressive issue that was put into the game and was frankly unneeded. This is also made apparent by the fact that the Inquisitor is unable to argue against her being such in any negative light. Its either "uhh...okay" or along the lines of "yeah, good for you/I agree".

 

After all, we want to include anything and everything right? We wouldn't want to make anyone feel like they weren't being represented. That would just be rude.

 

[Mr.House]

Seriously. The automatic equation of human = sex/romance = happiness is unpleasant.

 

 

How on Earth is he NOT a person -- and not only that, a person who embodies much of what is best about us? He is a sentient, self-aware, articulate individual. Equating "personhood" with "human like me" or at least with "like what i want" is an attitude that causes untold harm and ends up with monstrosities like Corypheus and Solas on the extreme end.

Cole does not identify as a person, he identifies as a spirit. Don't force him to be something he's not if you go down that route.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Why would Krem get with her? He's too busy dying in some hill.

[Mr.House]

Why would Krem get with her? He's too busy dying in some hill.

So we can make some melted bull.

[Korva]

Not sure why you insist on referring to spirit Cole as a person when he of all would be the first to say he isn't.

 

"Person" is a value judgement when you so vehemently oppose the mere notion of it applying to a "thing" you clearly loathe as "crap" and "garbage". If it was just a value-neutral description, I would have no issue with not applying it to spirits.

 

From what I have seen of the new lore spirits were regarded as people, even as kin in Solas' world. You would not have been. You would be regarded like you regard this side of Cole. What makes your definition right and the the old elves' wrong? Likewise with the qunari. You're bas, a literal thing, with all the ugly consequences. Any number of "reasons" can be and are used to deny someone's value as a person, usually just because they're different in some way, or because we want a handy excuse to trample them, or both.

 

Cole uses the language of the modern world he is surrounded by.

[Daerog]

More Spirit or More Human, Cole decided to go by a name. Cole. This separated him from others, it made him an individual, and so he is a person.

 

Is he human? No, even if you make him more human, he is not a human. He is more of an elf-like human, in that there is a spirit-like background to his humanity.

 

Anyway, if he is made more spirit-like, he seems to drift away from being "Cole" and starts to be just another spirit of compassion in the Fade (at least from what I've gathered, haven't seen the spirit like ending for him, yet). So, if he does go to the Fade and no longer differentiate himself from other compassion spirits, then one could argue that he is not a person, like how a robot that does not recognize itself as an individual is not a person (if we shift to sci-fi for an example).

 

If he stays human, he recognize his individuality, gives himself a name (well, he more keeps the name than gives it), and can start a romantic relationship. Being able to be in a romantic relationship supports him being a person, an individual, because he is not some software programmed companion bot, that wouldn't be a romantic relationship.

 

 

Perhaps it's just up to the individual's perspective, but by going by a name and differentiating himself from others, one can say he is an individual with his own thoughts and motivations, and that makes him a person (if he is more human-like, at least).

 

 

(I think Cole x Maryden is the best couple of the different Maryden x ? couples, it's just more uplifting, a bard and mystical person lifting people's hopes with song and hidden deeds.)

[Ryzaki]

"Person" is a value judgement when you so vehemently oppose the mere notion of it applying to a "thing" you clearly loathe as "crap" and "garbage". If it was just a value-neutral description, I would have no issue with not applying it to spirits.

 

From what I have seen of the new lore spirits were regarded as people, even as kin in Solas' world. You would not have been. You would be regarded like you regard this side of Cole. What makes your definition right and the the old elves' wrong? Likewise with the qunari. You're bas, a literal thing, with all the ugly consequences. Any number of "reasons" can be and are used to deny someone's value as a person, usually just because they're different in some way, or because we want a handy excuse to trample them, or both.

 

Cole uses the language of the modern world he is surrounded by.

 

Yep and Spirit!Cole does not consider himself a person probably because he's not and he's aware of that.

[Mr.House]

If Spirit Cole does not consider himself a person, he is not a person, it's that simple.

[Daerog]

If Spirit Cole does not consider himself a person, he is not a person, it's that simple.

 

Eh, I don't think it works that way. If he is able to reflect on his existence and differentiate himself from other existing things, and recognize his individuality, he is a person.

 

If he can or cannot, an outsider won't easily know, so perhaps one can take Cole's opinion as true, especially if he considers himself as just part of the Fade, and only exists as the Fade exists, not really alive and such. He seems to have trouble with reflection due to a lack of a reasoning process (he seems to go off of a "trial and error" approach before being more human)**, so if that doesn't change... maybe he isn't a person?

 

Still, someone just saying they are something doesn't make it true. Someone may consider themselves an orange, but that doesn't make that someone an orange. Not all identifiers are based on opinion alone.

 

Edit: **This can be seen in Trespasser. He just tells the Orlesian about the jewels, not really caring for the reason, it is just a known fact to him if he is more spirit. If he is more human, he wonders why that is, and so he is looking for "why?" and not just "what?" which means he is more reflective and can be more empathetic.

[FALCONGTX]

Well we don't need to go far away from Bioware on question which better Cole, person or cole spirit - just look at Legion from ME and we'll see that Cole Human is better choice for Cole him self.

[magic713]

I would prefer Krem be matched up mostly because I enjoy hearing Bioware's reasoning away the obvious glitch where Krem stands on his chair.

 

As for Cole as human or spirit, like they (Bioware) said, there is no wrong answer. I make Cole more spirit because he can help more people in that capacity and he is still content. If I saw that he was unhappy as a spirit, I would definitely make him human.

[Korva]

More Spirit or More Human, Cole decided to go by a name. Cole. This separated him from others, it made him an individual, and so he is a person.

 

That's a humanocentric view, though. A spirit's nature works fine as a name as well. It's descriptive, but many humans names are, too, and hardly anyone's name is unique ... or chosen by the person in question. Having five Janes and fives Joes in a room doesn't mean they lose their individuality somehow. At any rate, more-spirit-Cole does indeed still decide: he's fine with others still calling him by that human name, but is also fine with Compassion.

 

Anyway, if he is made more spirit-like, he seems to drift away from being "Cole" and starts to be just another spirit of compassion in the Fade (at least from what I've gathered, haven't seen the spirit like ending for him, yet). So, if he does go to the Fade and no longer differentiate himself from other compassion spirits, then one could argue that he is not a person, like how a robot that does not recognize itself as an individual is not a person (if we shift to sci-fi for an example).

 

There is no sign that he is giving up his individuality. Nor does such individuality depend on being outside the Fade -- spirits can be self-aware individuals without ever crossing the Veil.

 

Being able to be in a romantic relationship supports him being a person, an individual, because he is not some software programmed companion bot, that wouldn't be a romantic relationship.

 

That isn't the only kind of relationship that "supports being a person", though. Friendship works just as well, and he has friends no matter what. Just pointing that out, because us asexual and/or aromantic folks do tend to get not merely overlooked but also slapped with attitudes of "broken" or "less human" at times.

 

 

@All:

 

"Person" has at least three different meanings, here.

 

1) A value judgement based on personal prejudice.

2) A synonym for "human" or more generally "mortal".

3) A sentient, self-aware individual being of any kind.

 

Obviously #2 does not apply to more-spirit-Cole, despite the fully functional human body. When I refer to Cole as a "person" I go by #3 in protest of #1 shutting Cole out, which is what happens when #2 denies the existence of other kinds of #3 via #1. And that's about all the patience and energy I have for semantics right now.

[Mr.House]

Well we don't need to go far away from Bioware on question which better Cole, person or cole spirit - just look at Legion from ME and we'll see that Cole Human is better choice for Cole him self.

Cole's nothing like Legion and the choice still has no "win" option. Both options still have pros and cons.

[Qunquistador]

I let the Chargers die for the cause and now I'm even more satisfied with that decision and encouraging Cole to be more human. Almost got misty eyed seeing my boy all grown up with a girlfriend, albeit a very obnoxious girlfriend. It was like the end of the jungle book...if Mowgli was a demon and the Inquisitor was a bear.

[megageeklizzy]

Cole isn't necessarily better off as a person.  Making him more spirit-like does make him less of a person, but I don't think that's a bad thing.  People are greedy and ambitious.  People have to struggle against temptations.  People don't live forever.  People can feel pain, emotionally and physically.  Why would you force a magical being into a mundane life?

[Andraste_Reborn]

The potential existence of Krem/Maryden has tipped me over into preferring Spirit!Cole to Human!Cole, at least in world states where Krem lives. If only because we finally get an explanation for his weird habit of standing on chairs and that glorious, groan-worthy pun from Bull.

[Daerog]

That's a humanocentric view, though.

 
That made me laugh. Humanocentric *snicker*.

Anyway, this is a problem with text, I can't always get my meaning across. One can have a name, which one has to give meaning and individuality, or one can have an identifier. People can have the same name or identifier, but it is how one perceives it that hints at personhood. A name is embraced, an identifier just is. That is what I was referring to with the name and how humans can perceive personhood, because if we go with other fictional species' definition of the term, that'll just cause confusion.
 
 

There is no sign that he is giving up his individuality. Nor does such individuality depend on being outside the Fade -- spirits can be self-aware individuals without ever crossing the Veil.

Never said he is or would give up his individuality, I was saying IF or that it sounds like it. I don't know, these epilogues are just hearsay, anyway. If the Chant is right that the Old Gods were of the firstborn, then spirits can have individuality and don't have to necessarily fit into a simple idea.
 
 
 

That isn't the only kind of relationship that "supports being a person", though. Friendship works just as well, and he has friends no matter what. Just pointing that out, because us asexual and/or aromantic folks do tend to get not merely overlooked but also slapped with attitudes of "broken" or "less human" at times.

I didn't say it was the only kind, I just said it supports my idea. Friendship can work, sure, but it is not at the same level, and one can be friends with an animal, or view a relationship as such, but that animal isn't a person (I'm not arguing against animal rights). I feel like I may be contradicting myself somewhere... meh, I prefer to see Cole as a person, anyway, and I prefer the human route.

(I'm not one for romantic relationships myself, not my calling.)
 

@All:
 
"Person" has at least three different meanings, here.
 
1) A value judgement based on personal prejudice.
2) A synonym for "human" or more generally "mortal".
3) A sentient, self-aware individual being of any kind.
 
Obviously #2 does not apply to more-spirit-Cole, despite the fully functional human body. When I refer to Cole as a "person" I go by #3 in protest of #1 shutting Cole out, which is what happens when #2 denies the existence of other kinds of #3 via #1. And that's about all the patience and energy I have for semantics right now.

Ya, for this I prefer #3, I don't see how #2 can work in a fantasy world.

[BSpud]

crap posting

 

[FALCONGTX]

Cole's nothing like Legion and the choice still has no "win" option. Both options still have pros and cons.

No cons at all he can return being spirit if he as person really wishes so or soon after he "dies", and on contrary it's not like any spirit can turn Human just by wish.
If you consider as pro that he as spirit is more for helping people - there is one little thing: It is pro for ones Cole helping not Cole himself - whereas is Cole mere tool for dealing with other people issues - they really should deal with it themselves.

 

tl;dr

 

Cole is already spirit to begin with after becoming Human he who has both experiences can prefers to stay as Human, and Cole who never turned into Human has no such experience. What you people saing is that it's not right to give Cole "meat" cause he is vegan from birth, instead of relying on Cole's own chose.

-----------

 

"Person" has at least three different meanings, here.

 

1) A value judgement based on personal prejudice.

2) A synonym for "human" or more generally "mortal".

3) A sentient, self-aware individual being of any kind.

 

Obviously #2 does not apply to more-spirit-Cole, despite the fully functional human body. When I refer to Cole as a "person" I go by #3 in protest of #1 shutting Cole out, which is what happens when #2 denies the existence of other kinds of #3 via #1. And that's about all the patience and energy I have for semantics right now.

And all three wrong cause person is not only sentient, self-aware individual being of any kind but also being who can: A} comprehend information - as experience and B} form opinions based on this experience - for pure spirits it is impossible because of A: in fade information is not static but dynamic thus making it impossible comprehend information - as experience cause of A, B impossible as well, so no pure spirits are sentient, self-aware individual being of any kind but not persons.

[Andreas Amell]

Yes I made Cole a real boy so he hooks up with the Bard.  But I think it is far more cute to have Krem and her hook up. 

It's all good. Krem still has the life he wanted with the Chargers. 

[Ieldra]

I didn't know in advance what would happen - I made Cole more human and he hooked up with Maryden - but I liked this result. Seeing them together made me smile. I see no reason to change my decision, even though my main Inquisitor doesn't have strong opinions about this and her decision could go either way without being out of character.

[The Oracle]

As Bioware said, their's no "right" option here, just one that follows the players preference. I mix and choose between the two depending on my playthroughs. With either option, Cole finds a form of happiness in being whole and he is still inherently compassionate.

 

I do like to imagine that, as human!Cole, his compassion on this side of the world conceives even more spirits of Compassion in the Veil, as they reflect and form from his actions.