I really need to replay DAI and pay more attention to this bard! When she first showed up, I was trying to think of anything I know about her (other than her lovely songs).
More interaction with Cole about how he feels now would've been interesting. How the world is for him as a full spirit or how things have changed as a human-y spirit. But... I'm just glad the Cole is happy, regardless of his path. And he's still helping people. 
I really need to replay DAI and pay more attention to this bard! When she first showed up, I was trying to think of anything I know about her (other than her lovely songs).
Seems like you should pay some attention to her.... "songs". Krem seems to be pretty impressed.
Wait, I had Spirit Cole in my playthough, with The Chargers alive, and I still got the scene where he's with Maryden. Bug, I'm assuming? Or did I somehow fulfill some weird requirements where this outcome is possible?
Same. Maryden's sudden "importance" is rather random -- and after her war table mission I still have a hard time believing she's supposed to be all sweet and kind. But eh, for Krem's sake I'll accept it.
The war table mission showing how petty she was didn't go unremembered by me either, especially because it's practically the only indicator of her personality we have. Maybe Cole helped her overcome that though? Maybe when she said "She pulled my hair" it's shorthand for some heavy emotional (and physical) abuse that she understandably can't get over, and Cole helps her forgive or move on? I'll just go with that 
He's not a person because he's a mind reading fade spirit. Duh. Compassion does not a human make. My dog showed freaking compassion and I wouldn't claim it was a person anymore than I would claim spirit cole was.
Person =/= human. Just because humans have qualities that make us people doesn't mean we can be the only people. Legion is a person, Garrus is a person, Tali is a person, Merrill is a person, Alistair is a person, Varric is a person, the Arishok is a person, Cole is a person.
Cole thinking differently than you doesn't make him any less of a person just as me thinking differently than you doesn't make me less of a person.
Totally regret making Cole human. Maryden?? Do not like!!
I made such terrible choices, sacrificing the chargers being the main one. I also saved Loghain and made Gaspard the Emperor. I'm waiting to see how badly those will play out! lol
Same here, Krem x Maryden ftw. Cole is ew in general so I prefer him as a spirit.
@ElvishPenguin: Bug, yes. This DLC apparently has a ton of them, and many are issues with choices failing to import properly.
Anyway, this is a problem with text, I can't always get my meaning across.
I think we all know how that feels. I was super-tired when I wrote my last post, and looking back at it, I know I could have been clearer on some things.
One can have a name, which one has to give meaning and individuality, or one can have an identifier. People can have the same name or identifier, but it is how one perceives it that hints at personhood. A name is embraced, an identifier just is. That is what I was referring to with the name and how humans can perceive personhood, because if we go with other fictional species' definition of the term, that'll just cause confusion.
What if you don't embrace your name, and it just ... is, at best? Anyway, I see what you mean. The point I was trying to make with "humanocentric" is that only going by our definitions doesn't always do fictional species justice. Of course, we can't move from our POV altogether because that's what we have -- but keeping in mind that our perspective isn't the only one in such a setting, or the only "valid" one, is a good idea.
I don't know, these epilogues are just hearsay, anyway.
Yes, we do know Bioware does not exactly have a history of treating them as actual canon, and instead will change them or other previously established facts if they feel they need to for a new narrative (i.e. zombie Leliana).
If the Chant is right that the Old Gods were of the firstborn, then spirits can have individuality and don't have to necessarily fit into a simple idea.
I think we can be pretty sure of that by now, after the various appearances of or new lore about spirits. Solas once told Cole that it's contact with the physical world that lets a spirit learn and grow. I don't think he meant it requires a presence here (be it Cole's unique circumstances or a more "normal" manifestation), since his Wisdom friend and the spirit who posed as Justinia, for example, remained in the Fade but still were distinct beings. In the old days that Solas wants to bring back, such contact would have been easier of course. If the Veil he created is preventing more spirits from realizing their potential, that is probably an issue he blames himself for too.
I didn't say it was the only kind, I just said it supports my idea. Friendship can work, sure, but it is not at the same level, and one can be friends with an animal, or view a relationship as such, but that animal isn't a person (I'm not arguing against animal rights). I feel like I may be contradicting myself somewhere...
Yes, I just wanted to point it out because the attitudes to exist -- not a dig at you personally. Sorry if that was unclear. As for what is more meaningful, I think it depends on each individual relationship, and how a culture views different kinds of relationships. If friendships are considered secondary at best, people have less incentive and fewer opportunities to form meaningful platonic bonds, or to legally "protect" these bonds. Anyway. Both "aspects" of Cole are explicitly meant to be both positive and bittersweet, and that is a good thing. As much as I prefer the spirit-path, there's room for both ... and the character would lose quite a bit, IMO, if it was black-and-white.
Nah, she's best with based ZITHER.
"He is a mistake, but you will enjoy it."
And all three wrong cause person is not only sentient, self-aware individual being of any kind but also being who can: A} comprehend information - as experience and B} form opinions based on this experience - for pure spirits it is impossible because of A: in fade information is not static but dynamic thus making it impossible comprehend information - as experience cause of A, B impossible as well, so no pure spirits are sentient, self-aware individual being of any kind but not persons.
Well, that's one personal definition, but not all humans agree to that kind of definition of "person." Such a definition, of needing experience in order to reflect and form opinions, removes all beings that transcend time as we know it from being called persons. So, at least a billion people would disagree with that definition.
The war table mission showing how petty she was didn't go unremembered by me either, especially because it's practically the only indicator of her personality we have. Maybe Cole helped her overcome that though? Maybe when she said "She pulled my hair" it's shorthand for some heavy emotional (and physical) abuse that she understandably can't get over, and Cole helps her forgive or move on? I'll just go with that
I think it's possible to talk to her a bit as well, at Skyhold, but it must have been unremarkable because I honestly can't recall any more than the vague memory that I did talk to her after the tavern opened. As for the mission: I refused to ruin someone's life (seriously WTF, Leliana!) over what sounded like a schoolyard spat, she was not pleased, and I was left with a ... less than positive impression of my resident minstrel. It would have been good to see that resolved before she's randomly presented as this super-nice sweetheart. Or resolved, period, so I don't have two stab-happy bards in my keep to worry about 
So yes, that is my headcanon too: whatever old pain bubbled up, Cole felt it and helped her heal from it.
I do like the idea of him subtly helping with her songs, more-spirit and more-human alike. He's always going on about how people, places and things "sing", so it suits him to like "actual" music and the people who are able to use it to truly inspire posiitve feelings in others.
Person =/= human. Just because humans have qualities that make us people doesn't mean we can be the only people.
That sums it up better than I did, yes.
Well, that's one personal definition, but not all humans agree to that kind of definition of "person." Such a definition, of needing experience in order to reflect and form opinions, removes all beings that transcend time as we know it from being called persons. So, at least a billion people would disagree with that definition.
Not really, in your case you are referring to such beings they called entities(even though we zero records of such beings in real life - that transcends time) - pure spirits and spiritual Cole are leaning toward this definition. Person - by meaning of word it self must have be able to reflect all that comes to him in his own uniqe way -Roughly speaking we are can't differentiate(Differ their personalities) two spirits of same type if they can share their thoughts and memory and easily accept them as their own.
I think it's possible to talk to her a bit as well, at Skyhold, but it must have been unremarkable because I honestly can't recall any more than the vague memory that I did talk to her after the tavern opened. As for the mission: I refused to ruin someone's life (seriously WTF, Leliana!) over what sounded like a schoolyard spat, she was not pleased, and I was left with a ... less than positive impression of my resident minstrel. It would have been good to see that resolved before she's randomly presented as this super-nice sweetheart. Or resolved, period, so I don't have two stab-happy bards in my keep to worry about
I do like the idea of him subtly helping with her songs, more-spirit and more-human alike. He's always going on about how people, places and things "sing", so it suits him to like "actual" music and the people who are able to use it to truly inspire posiitve feelings in others.
I think the conversation went something like "Hi, what do you do here?" "I keep the troops motivated." "Cool, bye." Yeah, that was definitely one of the war table missions where I was disgusted at Leliana too. (The other one was when she said "What's one life?" in the mission to destroy the crops of someone who may or may not be able to make alchemical formulae on par with the Inquisition and may or may not sell them. For Maryden's mission, I chose Cullen. "No. This is ridiculous."
I agree, her being a supposed sweetheart came out of nowhere, even if we can headcanon Cole helping. Good point about the singing too.
That sums it up better than I did, yes.
Thanks, but sometimes long-winded explanations are good too ![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
I like either outcome. Cole still is able to help people and simply learns a new way to do so. Given how awesome Maryden's tavern songs were, I found it fitting for a Human Cole; it was also a big shock,
So who/what the hell is ZITHER?
ZITHER! Virtuoso extraordinaire!
*cough* Dude's a MP character. Basically Dragon Ages version of a D&D bard.
Ok, first no need for the hostile tone, this is a video game forum. I didn't actually brainwash someone IRL.
Second, Tranquils aren't born this way. They are forcefully made into what they are, that is the monstrosity here. Spirits are created as manifestations of mortal emotions, Compassion in Cole's case. It's in him to be selfless at every opportunity and help people. It's what he likes to do, it's what he wants to do. His need to help is so strong he could empathize with Corypheus.
Solas says it clearly; spirits aren't humans. You can't judge them by the same metrics. They have singular purposes and enjoy fulfilling those purposes. And they weren't forced into this state; those that do become demons.
As such, it is not cruelty to entertain the possibility that a walking, talking embodiement of selflessness and compassion would prefer to help others form emotional bonds. And given that, well, this is precisely what happens in the actual game, I have a feeling there is little ''cruelty'' in letting Cole do what he wants in accordance with his nature.
There's also little cruelty in letting Cole do what he wants in accordance to his desires: Be more human.
Also I have the bad feeling spirit cole is going to become Solas morality pet which is barf worthy so even more reason for me to make Cole human.
There's also little cruelty in letting Cole do what he wants in accordance to his desires: Be more human.
They were not his desires. He can come to enjoy it after the fact, yes, and it is a valid choice just like the more-spirit path is -- but before then he never does anything to express a wish to be more human.
Yeah, that was definitely one of the war table missions where I was disgusted at Leliana too. (The other one was when she said "What's one life?" in the mission to destroy the crops of someone who may or may not be able to make alchemical formulae on par with the Inquisition and may or may not sell them. For Maryden's mission, I chose Cullen. "No. This is ridiculous."
Don't forget the very early mission with the noble demanding that you rid him of refugees, and Leliana is all for scaring them away with threats of assassins. I ... still can't make up my mind how fully in-character some of the advisor-suggestions are. Leliana is a Jekyll/Hyde powderkeg, but I had thought she'd never treat desperate refugees that way. 
Cullen all the way for both that mission and Maryden's.
I have a liking for Spirit Cole.
So do I, but I don't want Solas using him. I have another play-through with more human like Cole. I plan on keeping both just in case Solas hurts or uses Spirit Cole.
Don't forget the very early mission with the noble demanding that you rid him of refugees, and Leliana is all for scaring them away with threats of assassins. I ... still can't make up my mind how fully in-character some of the advisor-suggestions are. Leliana is a Jekyll/Hyde powderkeg, but I had thought she'd never treat desperate refugees that way.
I always thought she meant she'd scare the noble with the threats, but I admit I could be completely wrong. I agree, I like Cullen's suggestions most of the time even, but you're totally right about some options being out of character for all of the advisors. The one I have in mind is about the daughter of a noble who joined the Inquisition against her father's wishes. Josephine says to ignore the noble and let her follow her heart, and Cullen says she should be thrown out and made sure she knows she's not welcome. Whaaaaat? 
That's not like Cullen at all. Those are totally reversed, even if Josephine would phrase it in a more polite way. And Leliana is definitely Jekyll and Hyde. One mission, she doesn't want to even kill varghests and instead relocate them (which unfortunately resulted in your soldiers dying), and the next, let's cut out some bard's tongue or assassinate some farmer. But she's always been like that, so I'm not as bothered as when Cullen is out of character. Part of me jokes that they did that so we wouldn't choose him every time
On-topic: I'm always a it conflicted about Cole. I like his "human" path overall, but some parts of it bug me, like people saying he's a "person" now, or even himself saying he's more "real". But maybe he just meant real as in material? Because he comes from the immaterial? I'm also not sure exactly how I feel about Maryden, but I think I'd like it if he could take the human path and have Krem get with her instead.
No one deserves to be submitted to Maryden. That voice, that ham, that disgustingly obvious metered speech she has. Cole, you did a very bad thing. Krem deserves much better. Go to your Fade and think about what you did.
Essentially you want them to have a lesbian relationship?
What are you even talking about?
Essentially you want them to have a lesbian relationship?
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