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[Fearsome1]

The forum is often like a minefield that one must gingerly pick your way through. Each time that I try to understand the position of others invariably the effort dies aborning with me staggering off in a fugue state.

 

There may seem to be consensus but only on basics; there are just a wild variety of wants, needs, desires, goals, etc. expected or preferred by our diverse fanbase. So, par for the course within a human community!

 

If I had to break down my own few issues with the franchise, it would have to be the reversals that come from time to time. I've long gotten past Leliana's miraculous recovery from the death blow that I dealt her in the Temple of Sacred Ashes. I mean surely some of those ashes could have wafted up as her corpse hit the ground and she huffed it in her final moment or something (which is as good an explanation as anything, I suppose)?  I would say that the only remaining changes from Dragon Age: Origins that really sting are twofold. The Dark Ritual as explained by Morrigan in Origins was clearly not intended to be sloughed off as it has been in Inquisition, and Kieran should not have been left as basically a cypher? Sadly, the legendary Grey Wardens have been minimized, marginalized, and utterly reinvented as something less than honorable. Hell, at this point one has to wonder what the high degree of regard and esteem the Wardens were afforded in the first game was all about and why the hell that had to change over the course of the sequels??

 

I'm not mad about it, but those are just weird and they each defy the explanations offered thus far. I think that only one thing missing from DA2 really bugs me: Bodahn and Sandal. Again, it was very CLEARLY stated that the Empress of Orlais [that would be Celene, since Bioware forgot that fact] offered them a position in her court. Now, we've been in and around the vicinity of Orlais through a large portion of Inquisition, and even met the Empress and everyone else vying for her throne, plus our old apostate friend Morrigan; but the dwarven merchant and his "enchantment" spouting offspring are nowhere to be found? I don't know about anyone else, but that diary located in the Vir Dirthara was a token nod at best, and even being generous, I'm loathe to view it that way. To date, I've not seen any statement from the devs detailing just WTF happened with these characters? Like these guys or not, that's just wrong!

[jedidotflow]

Dragon Age Origins truly is objectively the strongest game in the series

 

LOL, no it isn't.

[Evamitchelle]

The forum is often like a minefield that one must gingerly pick your way through. Each time that I try to understand the position of others invariably the effort dies aborning with me staggering off in a fugue state.

 

There may seem to be consensus but only on basics; there are just a wild variety of wants, needs, desires, goals, etc. expected or preferred by our diverse fanbase. So, par for the course within a human community!

 

If I had to break down my own few issues with the franchise, it would have to be the reversals that come from time to time. I've long gotten past Leliana's miraculous recovery from the death blow that I dealt her in the Temple of Sacred Ashes. I mean surely some of those ashes could have wafted up as her corpse hit the ground and she huffed it in her final moment or something (which is as good an explanation as anything, I suppose)?  I would say that the only remaining changes from Dragon Age: Origins that really sting are twofold. The Dark Ritual as explained by Morrigan in Origins was clearly not intended to be sloughed off as it has been in Inquisition, and Kieran should not have been left as basically a cypher? Sadly, the legendary Grey Wardens have been minimized, marginalized, and utterly reinvented as something less than honorable. Hell, at this point one has to wonder what the high degree of regard and esteem the Wardens were afforded in the first game was all about and why the hell that had to change over the course of the sequels??

 

 

That was actually addressed in Trespasser's epilogue. 

[Abyss108]

The Grey Wardens were never honourable... They took in criminals and did whatever was needed to stop the blight no matter how bad it was. "Honour" was NEVER something they had.

[Avejajed]

Dragon Age Origins: Origin Harder

Dragon Age Origins: Groundhog Day

Dragon Age Origins: Again

Dragon Age Origins: The Origin

[TobyJake]

One huge shift that gets very little attention is the complete absence of interaction between main character and companions.

That set origins apart from DA2 and DAI. Party banter is one thing, but having only predetermined locations to communicate is something else.

That is why DA2 and DAI feels so sterile. There was a huge issue with banter as I recall. You could go through entire zones without hearing a thing.

If I wanted to speak to Leliana or Morrigan all I had to do was click! Might not get the response I was looking for but what the heck.

In DA2 you only got to speak to Isabela a couple of times, then she was in your bed. But companions are more than banter.

That's why Scout Harding is such a favourite. Not a LI but you can talk to her outside of Skyhold. The only one that you can.

Even BG2 allowed it.

[TheRevanchist]

DAO is held up on a pedestal because it had 50 million different variations, variables and options. They did this because they wanted to make sure that in case the game was a One Off it would be a memorable experience. Had they known it would go beyond that one game, they would have never given us half of the stuff they did, because DAO is simply too massive, too varied, too unwieldy, and too customize-able for it to be properly adapted for future titles, because it wasn't designed with Sequels in mind. That is entirely Bioware's fault for making that design decision. That is why their design approach for this franchise has changed. They now see the series has staying power, and are moving to make it more manageable to adopt previous works into sequels. This is not a bad thing, it is frankly the opposite. Yes, Origins is a masterpiece, but even masterpieces have flaws. Unfortunately Origins primary flaw is that it was designed in a One Off fashion, not in a fashion that accommodates sequels. Same goes for the PC, this is why the HOF can never return. The options are too vast, too complex. The challenge could be met if they had unlimited time and budget, sadly they do not and thus we have this situation. Origins combat was slow, clunky, tactical (on PC, on Consoles not at all), and ultimately not fun to look at. DA2 was a typical Bioware response, they swung it too far in the other direction. Very fun to look at, not tactical value and totally ridiculous and over the top. They keep working at it, trying to find that sweet spot that eludes so many developers in the industry.

 

Origins also possess another problem (a problem as it applies to sequels). That problem is the blank husk PC. The old school style of PC that is designed to not be an actual character themselves, but instead be something the player projects themselves onto instead. This has it's own list of merits and drawbacks, and have been discussed to death. For the the purposes of this, and how it relates to the future of DA, it is a negative because they can never re-appear because of this. They were as silent as a graveyard, never had any facial expression of any kind, and for all intents and purposes, was just an avatar for you, the player. The Devs cannot possibly work with this. PC's such as this rely almost entirely on Head Canon and the players imagination. It is basically impossible for Devs to design around this and anyone who asks them to try that has no idea what they are actually asking. This is why Hawke and the Inquisitor are given voices, are given more "set" parameters to work with. There is less "fill in the blanks" for the players to do. This of course causes players who enjoy that to lash out and complain they can't RP the way they want. But many of these same people are the ones who want their PCs to return in some form in later Titles. These two things are mutually exclusive. If you want PCs to remain relevant to the IPs setting in some way in future titles, you have to accept some predefined aspects of the PCs. This is not a bad concept by default, contrary to what some fans might think of the issue. 

 

So basically, in conclusion. Bioware never decided to "move away" from Origins. They simply realized that, due to their own design decisions of the time, there is very little they can actually work with that won't be cheap, ridiculous, hand-wavy or whatever else. I will always love Origins, it will always be a masterpiece of the video game industry. But it's time we move past this, it really is. Origins has not aged as well as it would have, had they known the Franchise would be a smash hit. They were limited by their technologies and their inability to see the future and realize the game would be a massive success. Being ignorant of that fact does change how you approach designs, it changes how you think and look at things. People have a tendency to look at the First of anything, Books, movies, game series, w/e and decide "The first one is always the best one." Sometimes this is very true, sometimes it is not. Sometimes the first one of something was created in a way where a sequel does not work without extensive alterations. This is a very common thing, look at Empire Strikes Back. If you know anything about IV and V you would know that IV was basically a entirely different premise, the characters underwent extensive rewrites and alterations for V. Many people consider V the greatest of the 6 movies. This really isn't much different. Origins is good, just as A New Hope is good. But A New Hope is a very different thing from Empire and Return, just as Origins is a very different thing from 2 and Inquisition. In both cases it was done for the sake of building Franchises, rather than a One Off. I am sure there will be many of you who dispute this, who insist I am wrong or whatever else, but that is how I see it. I will take the Franchise, over the One Off any day, no matter how amazing that One Off is. Thank you to everyone who reads this entire thing, and to those who Like it. That is all I have to say.  

[Pallando]

I wonder how people can say DA:O is not the strongest game of the series. 

 

I liked DA:I, its gorgeous environment, its fast-paced combat, and its overall gameplay. 

The story was nice and the characters are interesting.

 

However, there are many points where it fell short:

• The antagonist was bland: in DA:O, the real antagonist was in fact Loghain, and he was the kind of character you love to hate. 
• The pace of the story was not always appropriate: the ending in particular was a bit sudden. All I remember is people looking through windows at Skyhold, telling me to defeat Corypheus and then boom, credits roll. You never really felt the threat... Except maybe in Haven. 
• The companions were mostly useless: I don't know why I recruited 9 of them when I could only use 3 at the same time and never saw them all together.
• The tactics / AI was awful: some people may find that DA:O was too slow (although I really enjoyed the fighting animations, and killing blows) but why do we only have access to 8 abilities and why the hell is the AI walking in the fire from the dragon? Where are the tactics?
  With a game more focused on the action, it would have made more sense to be able to set tactics to better trigger combos. Now, if we want combos, we have to use the nice-but-a-bit-limited tactical cam (which is nice to have for the difficult fights). 

 

Bioware was aiming for a large game, but everything could not be used (non-customizable keeps, big maps with few important quests). Even the size of the Inquisition can be a bit off sometimes: you're (too) quickly put at the head of a newly formed organization, but you never get to know its size and how it works exactly. You're just asked to solve the problem, and "please go fetch that medicine for my wife, my son has it on the other side of the map". Why can't I send a scout for such a trivial matter?

 

We have a nice party of 9 companions, but we can only talk to them at Skyhold and we never see them fighting together. What's the point of having so many followers? Diversity, maybe, but it feels odd to leave 6 of them playing Wicked Grace while I go fighting the Big Bad with only 3 comrades.

 

So in the end, I didn't feel like I had a small party of adventurers, but I did not really feel the Inquisitor was really in charge of this big organization either. 

With Trespasser, I've finally found a worthy Nemesis though.

 

In the first game, the overall plot was standard (like ME3: recruit allies to defeat Big Evil), but it was perfectly done. Wherever you go, you know that you'll need to overthrow Loghain first, and that he's onto you. And when you finally confront him, you don't have to kick his ass, at least not at first. You can enjoy his humiliation before! And finally, the last part of the game lets you feel powerful against mobs and see the results of all your work (allies and companions fighting). 

 

 

Well, maybe what disappointed the most in DA:I was the final battle in the end... 

[The Baconer]

Subjective views and personal tastes set aside, Dragon Age Origins truly is objectively the strongest game in the series and yet [...]

Well, no.

[Abyss108]

Personally I don't like Origins as much because the plot was utterly predictable, the characters boring and the combat far too slow. It's still a good game (I'm currently replaying it), but I enjoy all these aspects more in Inquisition.

[Pallando]

Personally I don't like Origins as much because the plot was utterly predictable, the characters boring and the combat far too slow. It's still a good game (I'm currently replaying it), but I enjoy all these aspects more in Inquisition.

 

The plot was utterly predictable, unlike DAI?

 

The characters may have felt boring for some, but they all had a reason to be in your party, unlike most in Inquisition...

 

As for the combat, slower does not mean less enjoyable to every one, whereas stupid AI and no tactics often lead to frustration.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I only got into Dragon Age after finishing ME3 but holy sh!t was DAO amazing. Great characters, great PC, great story, great choices and an epic final battle. DAO is how the Reapers should have been dealt with.

 

Don't care if the main story was save the world. As a big fan of superheroes, saving the world is one of my favorite things to do in any game because it makes me feel like one.

 

Beside, characters like Loghain, Arl Howe, Zatharian/Lady of the Forest and Bhelen/Harrowment made great antagonists. Loghain is one of Bioware's best characters ever and easily my no.1 in Dragon Age.

 

The only thing I agree was that combat speed was too slow. I played a mage so it was all good (cuz a mage should be overpowered) but Warriors/Rogues were soooooooooo slow.

 

DAI is the step in the right direction compared to DA2, I just hope they bring back origins (among other things) in the next game because they're fun as hell.

[Andraste_Reborn]

The characters may have felt boring for some, but they all had a reason to be in your party, unlike most in Inquisition...

 

I think 'there's a big !@#$ing hole in the sky and we want to fix it' is a pretty good reason. But even beyond that:

 

- Cassandra is one of the founders of the organisation you start out working for and eventually lead.

 

- Varric feels partly responsible for the whole red lyrium situation and wants to make amends.

 

- Solas's plans have gone horribly wrong, and the only way he can see to get his orb back is to follow you around and hope you pick it up again.

 

- Dorian came south to see what was up with his mentor, fell in with you because things were exploding, and wants to stay because he's a good person who wants to prove himself.

 

- Vivienne has watched her power dwindle at court because of the breakdown of the Circles, and Morrigan's arrival probably didn't help. She wants to be close to a new power base. (Also, she wants to return stability to southern Thedas because she's actually more invested in helping people than she lets on.)

 

- Bull was sent to spy on you by the Qunari. Also, he's actually getting paid.

 

- Blackwall wants to redeem himself, and trying to help the Inquisition seems like a better way than fighting bandits in the Hinterlands.

 

- Sera wants stability returned to Thedas so she can get on with Red Jenny business (and also because she's invested in helping people. She and Vivienne have more in common than they'd admit.)

 

- Cole wants to help the helpless on both sides of the damaged Veil.

[TheRevanchist]

I think 'there's a big !@#$ing hole in the sky and we want to fix it' is a pretty good reason. But even beyond that:

 

- Cassandra is one of the founders of the organisation you start out working for and eventually lead.

 

- Varric feels partly responsible for the whole red lyrium situation and wants to make amends.

 

- Solas's plans have gone horribly wrong, and the only way he can see to get his orb back is to follow you around and hope you pick it up again.

 

- Dorian came south to see what was up with his mentor, fell in with you because things were exploding, and wants to stay because he's a good person who wants to prove himself.

 

- Vivienne has watched her power dwindle at court because of the breakdown of the Circles, and Morrigan's arrival probably didn't help. She wants to be close to a new power base. (Also, she wants to return stability to southern Thedas because she's actually more invested in helping people than she lets on.)

 

- Bull was sent to spy on you by the Qunari. Also, he's actually getting paid.

 

- Blackwall wants to redeem himself, and trying to help the Inquisition seems like a better way than fighting bandits in the Hinterlands.

 

- Sera wants stability returned to Thedas so she can get on with Red Jenny business (and also because she's invested in helping people. She and Vivienne have more in common than they'd admit.)

 

- Cole wants to help the helpless on both sides of the damaged Veil.

 

Thank you, exactly my thoughts. I swear people need to remove the Rose Tinted glasses they glued to their face. 

[Pallando]

I think 'there's a big !@#$ing hole in the sky and we want to fix it' is a pretty good reason. But even beyond that:

 

- Cassandra is one of the founders of the organisation you start out working for and eventually lead.

 

- Varric feels partly responsible for the whole red lyrium situation and wants to make amends.

 

- Solas's plans have gone horribly wrong, and the only way he can see to get his orb back is to follow you around and hope you pick it up again.

 

- Dorian came south to see what was up with his mentor, fell in with you because things were exploding, and wants to stay because he's a good person who wants to prove himself.

 

- Vivienne has watched her power dwindle at court because of the breakdown of the Circles, and Morrigan's arrival probably didn't help. She wants to be close to a new power base. (Also, she wants to return stability to southern Thedas because she's actually more invested in helping people than she lets on.)

 

- Bull was sent to spy on you by the Qunari. Also, he's actually getting paid.

 

- Blackwall wants to redeem himself, and trying to help the Inquisition seems like a better way than fighting bandits in the Hinterlands.

 

- Sera wants stability returned to Thedas so she can get on with Red Jenny business (and also because she's invested in helping people. She and Vivienne have more in common than they'd admit.)

 

- Cole wants to help the helpless on both sides of the damaged Veil.

 

 

What I meant was that while I was fighting Corypheus, Cole, Bull, Sera, Vivienne, Varric and Dorian just stayed at Skyhold.

 

Otherwise, yeah, I get it, they "wanted to help restore stability" or "fix their mistakes", just like all the agents I recruited. Still, I did more for my companions than most of them for the Inquisition.

I'm pretty sure Michel de Chevin was more helpful than half of them...

[TheRevanchist]

What I meant was that while I was fighting Corypheus, Cole, Bull, Sera, Vivienne, Varric and Dorian just stayed at Skyhold.

 

Otherwise, yeah, I get it, they "wanted to help restore stability" or "fix their mistakes", just like all the agents I recruited. Still, I did more for my companions than most of them for the Inquisition.

I'm pretty sure Michel de Chevin was more helpful than half of them...

 

And your point is? Whatever companions you didn't pick in DAO just stayed at Camp the entire game, only getting one scene where they actually did something. As for the Cory fight, they actually all came along, they were just behind you when Cory raised the ground up and they got stuck below except for the 3 that you selected. 

[Andraste_Reborn]

What I meant was that while I was fighting Corypheus, Cole, Bull, Sera, Vivienne, Varric and Dorian just stayed at Skyhold.

 

... and while my Warden was trudging through the Deep Roads, Leliana, Zevran, Sten, Shale, Wynne and the dog were all sitting around in camp. What's the difference?

 

ETA: .

[Beomer]

I think BW should really do one of their census things about who liked which game better but this time based on age.

Reason being I've always wondered what's the age group of the people who call a silent protagonist bland.

This is just for knowledge purposes though. Now that even Bethesda have moved onto a voiced protagonist, I doubt we're ever going back.

[Ieldra]

"No brothels."

I liked this... until that sentence.

While I can easily live without them, the change is indicative of the fact that DAI is sanitized compared to its predecessors, for which I blame the professionally offended among the fanbase who turn everything into a representation issue, for its not the dark as such that has been cleansed and at the very least, kept offline, but anything that could possibly make someone uncomfortable or offend someone. I don't care about the motivations for that, it resulted in a sanitized world and I don't like it one bit.  

[Pallando]

And your point is? Whatever companions you didn't pick in DAO just stayed at Camp the entire game, only getting one scene where they actually did something. As for the Cory fight, they actually all came along, they were just behind you when Cory raised the ground up and they got stuck below except for the 3 that you selected. 

 

... and while my Warden was trudging through the Deep Roads, Leliana, Zevran, Sten, Shale, Wynne and the dog were all sitting around in camp. What's the difference?

 

ETA:   .

 

In DAO, your party was there for the attack at night on the camp, and at the final battle!

 

I didn't see any DAI companion at the final battle. Only scouts.

 

Like if there's 1 place I expect my party to show up after 1 game-long build-up, it's the final confrontation...

 

 

Edit: 

Also:

 

Thank you, exactly my thoughts. I swear people need to remove the Rose Tinted glasses they glued to their face. 

 

 

What exactly makes DAI superior to DAO?

I mean, apart from "faster combat"...

[TheRevanchist]

In DAO, your party was there for the attack at night on the camp, and at the final battle!

 

I didn't see any DAI companion at the final battle. Only scouts.

 

The Camp is the camp, and was a handful of enemies, irrelevant. I already mentioned the Final Battle. And as I just told you, your companions all went to the Mountain with you, they got trapped below on the ground because they weren't fast enough. Since it was just Cory, allowing them to help would have broken the fight entirely.   

[Pallando]

The Camp is the camp, and was a handful of enemies, irrelevant. I already mentioned the Final Battle. And as I just told you, your companions all went to the Mountain with you, they got trapped below on the ground because they weren't fast enough. Since it was just Cory, allowing them to help would have broken the fight entirely.   

 

I just watched the scene, I don't see anyone besides the 3 chosen companions, and Scout Harding falling.

 

Also, you can't discard the final battle like that. If there's one moment you expect to see everyone, that's it!

[Fearsome1]

The Grey Wardens were never honourable... They took in criminals and did whatever was needed to stop the blight no matter how bad it was. "Honour" was NEVER something they had.

 

This opinion is one of individual perspective and it resonates with a portion of Origins fanbase, but to me it is little better than a retcon. I suppose it could be that one persons understanding of honor is different from anothers, but I actually played through DA:O many, many times. Yes, the Wardens conscripted from all ranks of life, both gutter-trash and noble, but the organization was revered by all and sundry in the original game. Wardens who survived the joining received a new outlook and instantly understood what they would have to cede over for the greater good. The revelation of the events at Soldiers Peak and Sophia Dryden's involvement, didn't even paint Wardens like Duncan, Riordan, Alistair in a bad light. At worst - in that first game - the Grey Wardens were seen as a necessary evil, but not for demonstrated nefariousness; only because of what their presence signalled ["blight is upon us"]. It has been subsequent events that cast things awry, again which is why I commented the way that I did.

 

"In war, victory. In peace, vigilance. In death, sacrifice." (That sounds pretty honorable to me)

[TheRevanchist]

I just watched the scene, I don't see anyone besides the 3 chosen companions, and Scout Harding falling.

 

Also, you can't discard the final battle like that. If there's one moment you expect to see everyone, that's it!

 

They were right there on the ground when you came walking out, they all came back to Skyhold with you. They were there, this is pretty obvious. As for "discarding" the final battle. I am not. Cory had nothing left, it was just him. 8 guys fighting 1 enemy would be really dumb, that is why they get stuck down there. 

 

 

This opinion is one of individual perspective and it resonates with a portion of Origins fanbase, but to me it is little better than a retcon. I suppose it could be that one persons understanding of honor is different from anothers, but I actually played through DA:O many, many times. Yes, the Wardens conscripted from all ranks of life, both gutter-trash and noble, but the organization was revered by all and sundry in the original game. The revelation of the events at Soldiers Peak and Sophia Dryden's involvement, didn't even paint Wardens like Duncan, Riordan, Alistair in a bad light. At worst - in that first game - the Grey Wardens were seen as a necessary evil, but not for demonstrated nefariousness; only because of what their presence signalled ["blight is upon us"]. It has been subsequent events that cast things awry, again which is why I commented the way that I did.

 

The first game didn't really give you a perspective on how Warden's act and operate. You get a romanticized view of it because theres a whole 2 Wardens, 3 at the end. Riordan is more of an info dump than a character, and Duncan just butchers a guy because he wanted to back out of it. Sofia Dryden and Avernus were clearly horrible people at the time of the Rebellion, resorting to what the Wardens basically did at Adamant. Origins tells you almost nothing about Wardens at all, Awakening informs you how ineffectual the First Warden is, and how they aren't as politically neutral as they claim to be. 

 

Nothing about that game gives the impression that Wardens were "Honorable" or anything of the sort, because you never met them. You saw a whole 2 other Wardens and Visions of Wardens doing really stupid ****. 

[Darvins]

No just no, almost everything you listed is your personal subjective taste from skill trees to the appearance or even presence of desire demons to Brothels and to story line choices. None of them are Objectively superior, in anyway shape or form. It demonstrates the way of such things whenever anyone claims to be 'Objective' in mass media what they mean inevitably is '<y personal Taste' mistaking it for being clearly the superior and correct choice.

 

I mean seriously the 'There's no Brothel' as a sign of being objectively weaker? Then please tell me what would you take out of Inquisition to put the Brothel in, and what purpose would it serve in the game? What role does it fulfil in the inquisitors journey, I'm curious or is it just there because 'Sex!'