272 réponses à ce sujet

[Pallando]

So you're annoyed because I was right? Because you didn't witness all the people that got blown to bits at the Temple of Sacred Ashes, despite walking through all the burnt up corpses, it didn't happen? This is to be expected, considering the OP opens up stating "You don't see any Wardens sacrificed to raise demons", despite the fact that we do indeed see that, not once, but twice. "But it wasn't gory enough, so it doesn't count", right?

 

If I may...

 

I think the main difference between the Joining in DAO and the deaths in DAI (burned corpses at the temple or sacrificed wardens) is the attachment you have for the characters. 

 

In DAI, you see plenty of deaths, but they're anonymous, it often has less impact, especially in a brutal world like Thedas. In the game, you come across multiple lovers who were probably slaughtered by some creature (Hinterlands, Emerald Graves, ...) but you rarely meet a relative: you mostly get those "mini-quests" through notes found on the ground. 

 

In DAO, one of the first quest you get after Ostagar is a child looking for his mother. You go to look for her and find she has been killed by a beast. Then in the Brecilian Forrest, there's the elf asking you to find his lover, but she's already turned to a Werewolf... 

 

I liked the chateau d'Onterre in the Emerald Graves, some compared it to the orphanage at the end of DAO. But for me, part of what made the orphanage memorable was the blind templar who was trying to do good but got eventually killed from behind. What happened to the children was awful, but seeing a good man like him get killed like that was shocking too. 

 

What happens to Leliana in the alternate future is horrible. The fate of Fiona is not much better either. But then again, it's a future you don't belong to. In the end, it's no more different than some dream/illusion only you (& Dorian) witnessed. As Solas would say: "these are not people". :-p

 

So yes, terrible things happen on screen in DAI, but you rarely have the occasion to relate to those events in such a ruthless world. 

[TheRevanchist]

If I may...

 

I think the main difference between the Joining in DAO and the deaths in DAI (burned corpses at the temple or sacrificed wardens) is the attachment you have for the characters. 

 

In DAI, you see plenty of deaths, but they're anonymous, it often has less impact, especially in a brutal world like Thedas. In the game, you come across multiple lovers who were probably slaughtered by some creature (Hinterlands, Emerald Graves, ...) but you rarely meet a relative: you mostly get those "mini-quests" through notes found on the ground. 

 

In DAO, one of the first quest you get after Ostagar is a child looking for his mother. You go to look for her and find she has been killed by a beast. Then in the Brecilian Forrest, there's the elf asking you to find his lover, but she's already turned to a Werewolf... 

 

I liked the chateau d'Onterre in the Emerald Graves, some compared it to the orphanage at the end of DAO. But for me, part of what made the orphanage memorable was the blind templar who was trying to do good but got eventually killed from behind. What happened to the children was awful, but seeing a good man like him get killed like that was shocking too. 

 

What happens to Leliana in the alternate future is horrible. The fate of Fiona is not much better either. But then again, it's a future you don't belong to. In the end, it's no more different than some dream/illusion only you (& Dorian) witnessed. As Solas would say: "these are not people". :-p

 

So yes, terrible things happen on screen in DAI, but you rarely have the occasion to relate to those events in such a ruthless world. 

 

You didn't really know Daveth or or Jorey either, spending a few measly minutes with them is not enough to add "weight" to the scene of the Joining. The example provided is imo poor, because they were obviously red shirts from the get go.  

[Darkly Tranquil]

Unfortunately, I don't think Bioware will ever go back to an Origins type of game again. Since Inquisition was rather successful they will keep making future Dragon Age games like it, not Origins.

Yeah, I predict they will double down on action combat and awesome button. If the next game has Tactics or TacCam at all, I will be surprised. The reason being that action combat works much better on console than the more traditional CRPG style combat of Origins, and since EA are far more console focused than old Bioware, I've no doubt PS4/Xbone will continue to be lead platform. At least next time we will know that Bioware's claims of caring about the PC community are lies, so we can go in with our eyes open.

[Erstus]

Yeah, I predict they will double down on action combat and awesome button. If the next game has Tactics or TacCam at all, I will be surprised. The reason being that action combat works much better on console than the more traditional CRPG style combat of Origins, and since EA are far more console focused than old Bioware, I've no doubt PS4/Xbone will continue to be lead platform. At least next time we will know that Bioware's claims of caring about the PC community are lies, so we can go in with our eyes open.

Origins combat was fine for me on Console. I prefer it over the flashy, clipping mosh pit combat of DAI.

[TheRevanchist]

Yeah, I predict they will double down on action combat and awesome button. If the next game has Tactics or TacCam at all, I will be surprised. The reason being that action combat works much better on console than the more traditional CRPG style combat of Origins, and since EA are far more console focused than old Bioware, I've no doubt PS4/Xbone will continue to be lead platform. At least next time we will know that Bioware's claims of caring about the PC community are lies, so we can go in with our eyes open.

 

They can care about PC gamers without putting the PC version of the game up on a Pedestal as the one and only true version of the game, because PC Master Race. Simply allowing Mod support again would do wonders for PC. Sadly that is likely EA's call, not Bioware's. 

[Mr.House]

Origins combat was fine for me on Console. I prefer it over the flashy, clipping mosh pit combat of DAI.

Yeah, no it's not. DAO was **** on the consoles.

[leaguer of one]

If I may...

 

I think the main difference between the Joining in DAO and the deaths in DAI (burned corpses at the temple or sacrificed wardens) is the attachment you have for the characters. 

 

In DAI, you see plenty of deaths, but they're anonymous, it often has less impact, especially in a brutal world like Thedas. In the game, you come across multiple lovers who were probably slaughtered by some creature (Hinterlands, Emerald Graves, ...) but you rarely meet a relative: you mostly get those "mini-quests" through notes found on the ground. 

 

In DAO, one of the first quest you get after Ostagar is a child looking for his mother. You go to look for her and find she has been killed by a beast. Then in the Brecilian Forrest, there's the elf asking you to find his lover, but she's already turned to a Werewolf... 

 

I liked the chateau d'Onterre in the Emerald Graves, some compared it to the orphanage at the end of DAO. But for me, part of what made the orphanage memorable was the blind templar who was trying to do good but got eventually killed from behind. What happened to the children was awful, but seeing a good man like him get killed like that was shocking too. 

 

What happens to Leliana in the alternate future is horrible. The fate of Fiona is not much better either. But then again, it's a future you don't belong to. In the end, it's no more different than some dream/illusion only you (& Dorian) witnessed. As Solas would say: "these are not people". :-p

 

So yes, terrible things happen on screen in DAI, but you rarely have the occasion to relate to those events in such a ruthless world. 

Do you no how anonymou the deaths in dao were. What attachment do you have to most of the army in ostigard? Or lothering in general? the people of red cliff?The clan killed off by Branka?

 

Sorry but use a better point.

 

It's not like you don't have the story's of attachment in dai. It's all over the hartlands and orlias.

[leaguer of one]

Yeah, no it's not. DAO was **** on the consoles.

Correction: DAO was super **** on the consoles.

[Erstus]

Another example in regards to Shadowlord's point -

We hear about the horrid physical transformation of the Templars who are taking red lyrium but we never actually see it.

We hear about the upper ranks of the Order forcing other templars to ingest the lyrium but never actually see that.

Seeing those aspects would have put a lot more weight behind just how terrible and corrupt these Templars are.

[correctamundo]

Another example in regards to Shadowlord's point -

We hear about the horrid physical transformation of the Templars who are taking red lyrium but we never actually see it.

We hear about the upper ranks of the Order forcing other templars to ingest the lyrium but never actually see that.

Seeing those aspects would have put a lot more weight behind just how terrible and corrupt these Templars are.

 

Are you for real? You actually missed all the horrors and behemoths?

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't see anything about Origins' art style that made it seem more realistic or gritty than its sequels.

The armour design.

[TheRevanchist]

The armour design.

 

Those GIANT shoulders on the massive armor is more realistic? The exposed chest areas on the female leather is more realistic? 

[Sylvius the Mad]

You didn't really know Daveth or or Jorey either, spending a few measly minutes with them is not enough to add "weight" to the scene of the Joining. The example provided is imo poor, because they were obviously red shirts from the get go.

The marketing of the game suggested otherwise. There was a movie-style poster with credits, and it mentioned only 5 characters: Duncan, Morrigan, Alistair, Daveth, and Jory.

[TheRevanchist]

Another example in regards to Shadowlord's point -

We hear about the horrid physical transformation of the Templars who are taking red lyrium but we never actually see it.

We hear about the upper ranks of the Order forcing other templars to ingest the lyrium but never actually see that.

Seeing those aspects would have put a lot more weight behind just how terrible and corrupt these Templars are.

 

See, you see that as a missed opportunity. I see that as giving the player the chance to imagine it for themselves, because by having your own mind conjure how horrible the process it, it is by definition worse than whatever Bioware could probably ever show you themselves. Only your mind can conjure things that revolt you the most.  

[TheRevanchist]

The marketing of the game suggested otherwise. There was a movie-style poster with credits, and it mentioned only 5 characters: Duncan, Morrigan, Alistair, Daveth, and Jory.

 

Well I totally missed this obviously poor marketing Campagin, because I had heard for years it was a PC exclusive game. I knew nothing about the game going in, and they felt entirely like Red Shirts from the moment you met them to me. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Those GIANT shoulders on the massive armor is more realistic? The exposed chest areas on the female leather is more realistic?

The edges of the metal were visibly finished. The pieces were thinner. There were no spikes that were liable to harm the wearer.

DAO's armour was designed with at least some understanding of metallurgy. DA2's was not.

[Evamitchelle]

Another example in regards to Shadowlord's point -

We hear about the horrid physical transformation of the Templars who are taking red lyrium but we never actually see it.

We hear about the upper ranks of the Order forcing other templars to ingest the lyrium but never actually see that.

Seeing those aspects would have put a lot more weight behind just how terrible and corrupt these Templars are.

 

All the red templars we see are in various stages of horrible body transformations, from slightly veiny dude all the way to 10-foot tall hunk of moving lyrium. How is that not seeing their physical transformation ? 

 

And IIRC the upper ranks are not forcing the templars to take red lyrium, they're deceiving them as to what it will do to them. 

[TheRevanchist]

The edges of the metal were visibly finished. The pieces were thinner. There were no spikes that were liable to harm the wearer.

DAO's armour was designed with at least some understanding of metallurgy. DA2's was not.

 

This wasn't an argument about the asinine DA2 armor styles. DAI's styles are imo better than DAOs, and worlds better than DA2s. 

[TheRevanchist]

All the red templars we see are in various stages of horrible body transformations, from slightly veiny dude all the way to 10-foot tall hunk of moving lyrium. How is that not seeing their physical transformation ? 

 

And IIRC the upper ranks are not forcing the templars to take red lyrium, they're deceiving them as to what it will do to them. 

 

That is exactly right, that is what they were doing. As for the first point, I guess he is under the impression the transformation is instant and explosive. It was not, all info suggests it is a slow, gradual change. They even explain this in the Codex entries. 

[Pallando]

You didn't really know Daveth or or Jorey either, spending a few measly minutes with them is not enough to add "weight" to the scene of the Joining. The example provided is imo poor, because they were obviously red shirts from the get go.  

 

Hmmm... So your argument is "a few more minutes than what we get in DAI doesn't count". I'm sorry, but yes it does.

Knowing the backstory of Daveth and especially Jory, as well as going on a mission with them, facing your (potentially) first darkspawn together and meeting Morrigan does add weight to their death. 

Also, I mentioned other examples you find in the game. But there's also the case of Mhairi who you get to know at the beginning of Awakening while cleaning up the keep. She's the only other individual we see dying because of the Joining...

 

Another example of how knowing a character makes his/her predicament more/less painful to witness can be found in DAO: you nearly always encounter characters from your origin story during the main quest (except the dalish maybe). If you play as a city elf, you'll know a bit more about Shianni and Bann Vaughan than say a dwarf commoner. So in any subsequent playthrough, you may not see them the same way. The same applies to Bhelen, Leske or Jowan... 

 

 

 

Do you no how anonymou the deaths in dao were. What attachment do you have to most of the army in ostigard? Or lothering in general? the people of red cliff?The clan killed off by Branka?

 

Sorry but use a better point.

 

It's not like you don't have the story's of attachment in dai. It's all over the hartlands and orlias.

 

What? How does that make what I said invalid? It's not because there are anonymous deaths in DAO that what I said was wrong. 

It's all about the "not-anonymous" deaths. You have more of that in DAO than in DAI. 

 

Also, at Ostagar, what was poignant was especially the betrayal of Cailan by Loghain. The deaths of thousands of soldiers is a sad thing, but the treason is the real kicker. 

The people of Redcliffe in general are not known, but you may get to know some. Those you recruit for instance: when one of them died (like Tomas), I really felt shitty for failing to protect them after having convinced them to fight... 

 

What happened to Branka's House was a shame, but the worst was meeting Hespith and listening to her story before meeting the broodmother...

 

 

Edit: I'd even say that the more you witness anonymous violence, the less you feel. When violence becomes too common but only strikes people you never talked to, you don't have this feeling of "doom". If something happens, it's going to happen to some unnamed soldier anyway...

 

It's like watching lightning bolts stiking the horizon while you're safely inside your house versus being out during the storm and seeing a tree being hit by thunder.

[TheRevanchist]

 

Hmmm... So your argument is "a few more minutes than what we get in DAI doesn't count". I'm sorry, but yes it does.

Knowing the backstory of Daveth and especially Jory, as well as going on a mission with them, facing your (potentially) first darkspawn together and meeting Morrigan does add weight to their death. 

Also, I mentioned other examples you find in the game. But there's also the case of Mhairi who you get to know at the beginning of Awakening while cleaning up the keep. She's the only other individual we see dying because of the Joining...

 

Another example of how knowing a character makes his/her predicament more/less painful to witness can be found in DAO: you nearly always encounter characters from your origin story during the main quest (except the dalish maybe). If you play as a city elf, you'll know a bit more about Shianni and Bann Vaughan than say a dwarf commoner. So in any subsequent playthrough, you may not see them the same way. The same applies to Bhelen, Leske or Jowan... 

 

 

 

 

What? How does that make what I said invalid? It's not because there are anonymous deaths in DAO that what I said was wrong. 

It's all about the "not-anonymous" deaths. You have more of that in DAO than in DAI. 

 

Also, at Ostagar, what was poignant was especially the betrayal of Cailan by Loghain. The deaths of thousands of soldiers is a sad thing, but the treason is the real kicker. 

The people of Redcliffe in general are not known, but you may get to know some. Those you recruit for instance: when one of them died (like Tomas), I really felt shitty for failing to protect them after having convinced them to fight... 

 

What happened to Branka's House was a shame, but the worst was meeting Hespith and listening to her story before meeting the broodmother...

 

 

Edit: I'd even say that the more you witness anonymous violence, the less you feel. When violence becomes too common but only strikes people you never talked to, you don't have this feeling of "doom". If something happens, it's going to happen to some unnamed soldier anyway...

 

 

Does it? because they were nothing but walking Neon signs that said "I'M GOING TO DIE SOON" to me. Them dying added nothing of significance to the game for me. Mhairi you get to know even LESS. If these were characters you spent several hours with, through a large swath of game, and THEN died. Sure I would be more sympathetic to this train of thought. As it stands your entire argument to me, sounds just like "People should die on screen, regardless of their significance, because Gritty Grim Dark." I know that is not what your actually implying, but thats just how I am interpreting it, by acting as if DAI is somehow ****** Disneyland because it lacks overt squick.

[Sylvius the Mad]

This wasn't an argument about the asinine DA2 armor styles. DAI's styles are imo better than DAOs, and worlds better than DA2s.

Granted.

I do DAI's use of bright colours makes it seem less believable. Those bright yellow of blue swaths if fabric under the plate armour shouldn't be that clean. DAO's browns were better for that.

I'll agree that DAI is miles ahead of DA2 in terms of the shapes of armours, though. But I do wish we had proper mage robes.

[Erstus]

All the red templars we see are in various stages of horrible body transformations, from slightly veiny dude all the way to 10-foot tall hunk of moving lyrium. How is that not seeing their physical transformation ? 
 
And IIRC the upper ranks are not forcing the templars to take red lyrium, they're deceiving them as to what it will do to them.

It was stated that in some situations they would use force if necessary

[Pallando]

Does it? because they were nothing but walking Neon signs that said "I'M GOING TO DIE SOON" to me. Them dying added nothing of significance to the game for me. Mhairi you get to know even LESS. If these were characters you spent several hours with, through a large swath of game, and THEN died. Sure I would be more sympathetic to this train of thought. As it stands your entire argument to me, sounds just like "People should die on screen, regardless of their significance, because Gritty Grim Dark." I know that is not what your actually implying, but thats just how I am interpreting it, by acting as if DAI is somehow ****** Disneyland because it lacks overt squick.

 

 

Actually, I never said we don't see enough people dying on screen. What I'm saying is that I felt like in DAI, **** only happens to people we never get to know. Or nearly. I'd say the problem is not the lack of death - there is plenty of that - it is the lack of contact with people. 

We do get to talk a bit with people in the game, but the most horrible things always happen to people who never talked. Those who talk mostly need us to deliver or fetch items elsewhere on the map (or fight groups of enemies).

[TheRevanchist]

Granted.

I do DAI's use of bright colours makes it seem less believable. Those bright yellow of blue swaths if fabric under the plate armour shouldn't be that clean. DAO's browns were better for that.

I'll agree that DAI is miles ahead of DA2 in terms of the shapes of armours, though. But I do wish we had proper mage robes.

 

I'll just be happy with hats that don't totally blow. Three and a half games we've had god awful hats. The only good hat is Vivienne's and it would only look good with her aesthetic. lack of good helmets too. Seems head-gear in general is just a problem for them. Shame because all the actually good ones are restricted to companions.