The thing with the DA series is that, so far, each game has more or less been an 'experiment'--something that BioWare has admitted on several occasions. What I think this means for the future of the series is it will continue to present something new each time a major entry is released. In other words, you will never see another Origins or Inquisition from BioWare.
I also never thought DA:I was 'light'. Far from it. It just never quite managed to excel at what it tried to achieve as an RPG.
Actually, I never said we don't see enough people dying on screen. What I'm saying is that I felt like in DAI, **** only happens to people we never get to know. Or nearly. I'd say the problem is not the lack of death - there is plenty of that - it is the lack of contact with people.
We do get to talk a bit with people in the game, but the most horrible things always happen to people who never talked. Those who talk mostly need us to deliver or fetch items elsewhere on the map (or fight groups of enemies).
Ah, yes. See this is more clear in objection. Indeed this all links back to the game lacking actual side quests, or Radiant NPCs that actually DO stuff. For all the crap ppl like to give Skyrim, at least their NPCs actually DO stuff on a daily basis.
Hmmm... So your argument is "a few more minutes than what we get in DAI doesn't count". I'm sorry, but yes it does.
Knowing the backstory of Daveth and especially Jory, as well as going on a mission with them, facing your (potentially) first darkspawn together and meeting Morrigan does add weight to their death.
Also, I mentioned other examples you find in the game. But there's also the case of Mhairi who you get to know at the beginning of Awakening while cleaning up the keep. She's the only other individual we see dying because of the Joining...
I really dislike these character-specific gear restrictions.I'll just be happy with hats that don't totally blow. Three and a half games we've had god awful hats. The only good hat is Vivienne's and it would only look good with her aesthetic. lack of good helmets too. Seems head-gear in general is just a problem for them. Shame because all the actually good ones are restricted to companions.
Actually, I never said we don't see enough people dying on screen. What I'm saying is that I felt like in DAI, **** only happens to people we never get to know. Or nearly. I'd say the problem is not the lack of death - there is plenty of that - it is the lack of contact with people.
We do get to talk a bit with people in the game, but the most horrible things always happen to people who never talked. Those who talk mostly need us to deliver or fetch items elsewhere on the map (or fight groups of enemies).
Exactly. And most of the deaths or tragic events which occurred in DAI we learn about through the codex. Doesn't mean it's not interesting or poignant, but when your only interaction with the characters is reading an old journal, you are automatically one step further removed from the emotional narrative than if you interacted with someone.
For example, in the Emerald Graves there's the quest where you find the note about the lovers going on a picnic, then a giant spider attacks at the site of the picnic. The spider has an engagement ring on it. So yes, this is kind of sad, seeing two people trying to ignore the war around them and have a life together, but then the quest just ends when you kill the spider. It would be improved if you had to return the ring to a family member or had some other follow up after this. So many of the sidequests just end abruptly once you've completed the objective set out from reading a scrap of paper (almost all of the Hinterlands quests like the feuding brothers, lost shipments, bear claws, etc.) and have no actual impact or real conclusion.
Exactly. And most of the deaths or tragic events which occurred in DAI we learn about through the codex. Doesn't mean it's not interesting or poignant, but when your only interaction with the characters is reading an old journal, you are automatically one step further removed from the emotional narrative than if you interacted with someone.
For example, in the Emerald Graves there's the quest where you find the note about the lovers going on a picnic, then a giant spider attacks at the site of the picnic. The spider has an engagement ring on it. So yes, this is kind of sad, seeing two people trying to ignore the war around them and have a life together, but then the quest just ends when you kill the spider. It would be improved if you had to return the ring to a family member or had some other follow up after this. So many of the sidequests just end abruptly once you've completed the objective set out from reading a scrap of paper (almost all of the Hinterlands quests like the feuding brothers, lost shipments, bear claws, etc.) and have no actual impact or real conclusion.
Yes, I was thinking about those quests too. It was sad, and the few times we did get to talk to a relative, they didn't say much except "thank you"...
Also, that's something I preferred in DAO: the UI. It's so damn difficult to browse through the codex!
I wish it could be accessed from the journal, and that we could go to other categories without going back...
People keep bringing up demons in DA:I to prove a point that the game was still just as dark as DA:O.
Guys....no...
It's more than just what enemies you face. I played DA:O recently. There is a major difference in tone, art style and in presentation between DA:O and DA:I. Origins was a lot darker and brutal than Inquisition was. There was always this sense of dread and sadness throughout the game, as if these characters were carrying only a little candlelight of hope while they're chest deep in a dark and horrible swamp. That feeling is completely absent in DA:I.
Dragon Age has evolved into something different, the same way Mass Effect did. Mass Effect started off as a very subtle and Star Treky type of story, but then as the new games came out it turned into more of an action adventure story set in space.
People keep bringing up demons in DA:I to prove a point that the game was still just as dark as DA:O.
Guys....no...
It's more than just what enemies you face. I played DA:O recently. There is a major difference in tone, art style and in presentation between DA:O and DA:I. Origins was a lot darker and brutal than Inquisition was. There was always this sense of dread and sadness throughout the game, as if these characters were carrying only a little candlelight of hope while they're chest deep in a dark and horrible swamp. That feeling is completely absent in DA:I.
Dragon Age has evolved into something different, the same way Mass Effect did. Mass Effect started off as a very subtle and Star Treky type of story, but then as the new games came out it turned into more of an action adventure story set in space.
I'm not sure I agree, DA:I had it's very dark moments, and not just in the big ways. The dead family you found, the dead lovers eaten by a spider, the scout who is fighting off the Templars who just killed her lover, as they where enjoying a stolen moment together. These are very dark, and yet not over played. The tales are different through, in Origins your the lone survivor trying to fight against impossible odds, in Inquisition your the people restoring hope to the land. It can't be all dark or else the tale would be borked. For example if your restoring hope yet never seeing that hope be restored.
See the Hinterlands. It goes from War Torn hell hole with refugees camped out in the wilderness worried about their next meal, or the cold nights to people who are being fed and clothed, because of your actions. That direct impact of restoring hope changes the feel of the Hinterlands, and this is good, this is the point of the story. If the Hinterlands stayed dark with Refugees still struggling to survive the night then the tale would have been ruined and your achievements would have meant nothing
What I see more often in threads like this is people not getting that the games are different and that is a good thing, if Inquisition was Origins 3 then it would suck. Origins is not a perfect game far from it, and I hate to say it, but not only do I prefer replaying Inquisition to it, but I prefer replaying Dragon Age 2 to it.
All in all, no they do not need to recreate Origins, they need to press on into the future telling new stories in new ways, not trying to recapture some Rose tinted glasses glory days gone by. Simply because, you can never do that, you can't make a game that will compete with the rose tinted glasses of nostalgia.
No, it is not a matter of semantics, and even if it was, then there's no reason for this debate to even be happening. DAI has plenty of moments that make you go "wow that is f'd up". They simply don't beat you over the head with it with a blunt object because they, apparently, believed their audience was intelligent enough to understand subtly and subtext. Clearly due to the reactions in this thread that is not the case, anything other than overt, gratuitous squick-like scenes will simply be dismissed as a sanitized Disneyland. Personally I think that says more about the people who are demanding it than it does anything else since there is literally NO difference between the "Joining" scene and the Ritual scene, none. A Warden kills another Warden who does not wish to die, that is literally all those two scenes contain aside from Daveth dying, which is not really dark at all. You are seeing something that is simply not there. There is nothing about the "tone" of the Joining scene that makes it unique, or darker, than the other.
Yup, I agree.
It's more than just what enemies you face. I played DA:O recently. There is a major difference in tone, art style and in presentation between DA:O and DA:I. Origins was a lot darker and brutal than Inquisition was. There was always this sense of dread and sadness throughout the game, as if these characters were carrying only a little candlelight of hope while they're chest deep in a dark and horrible swamp. That feeling is completely absent in DA:I.
No, in fact the terrible graphics took me out of the atmosphere of the game quite a bit. The fantastic graphics of Inquisition actually made me feel more like I was "in" Thedas than Origins ever did. Both stories have their dark moments, innocents caught in the crossfire, tragic waste of life, the cruelties of civilization crushing the poorer... it's all still there.
So many of the sidequests just end abruptly once you've completed the objective set out from reading a scrap of paper (almost all of the Hinterlands quests like the feuding brothers, lost shipments, bear claws, etc.) and have no actual impact or real conclusion.
Ironically ending abruptly is more "true to life" than neat little stories tied up with neat little closure bows. Real life is messy and often our stories are cut off abruptly with no real sense of a satisfactory ending. This makes me sad and it makes these little stories even sadder.
I really dislike these character-specific gear restrictions.
Everyone should be able to wear any gear, and it should look mostly the same regardless of who's wearing it.
Agree partially.
Superstrong beings and endgame PC should probably have custom gear as many of our real world greatest warriors had. Being superspecial grant you uniqueness. Which fits some of Inquisition characters like Vivienne and Dorian since they are noble and powerful. Also recluse/hermit/other characters with exotic background stories sometimes do not fit with "normal gear" like Morrigan for instance.
We should perhaps have the option to maintain unique looks for these characters, but why should that be forced on us?Agree partially.
Superstrong beings and endgame PC should probably have custom gear as many of our real world greatest warriors had. Being superspecial grant you uniqueness. Which fits some of Inquisition characters like Vivienne and Dorian since they are noble and powerful. Also recluse/hermit/other characters with exotic background stories sometimes do not fit with "normal gear" like Morrigan for instance.
You didn't really know Daveth or or Jorey either, spending a few measly minutes with them is not enough to add "weight" to the scene of the Joining. The example provided is imo poor, because they were obviously red shirts from the get go.
I disagree entirely. I remember many posting on the old Bioware threads (me included) that we wished Daveth would've survived the Joining to become a companion- very well-liked. And Jory was another "controversial" character in that many people had strong opinions about him- emphasizing his apparent cowardice or spinning his reaction as the only brave course to take against Duncan forcing him to drink darkspawn blood. See? They both left an impression and were memorable- remembered by name even. "Weight" is exactly what getting to know them lent for the Joining scene. Their deaths were the first shock for me prior to Duncan's and Cailan's.
By contrast there are far more such characters in DAI- maybe 5-10 times as many- both NPCs and antagonists (or somewhere between)- but they were seldom memorable and often got no lines at all. I haven't completed DAI, but I've finished all the areas and DLCs prior to "Wicked Hearts" and "Abyss," and in all that time and experience with side areas/ missions I found less than a handful of NPCs who spoke first before we end up killing them or, as in JoH's Grandin's case, getting the option to recruit them instead of battle. Nearly every area quest boss was just a straight-up fight, like the boss in the Fallow Mire who just bellows first or the boss in that remote fort in the Western Approach who I actually killed (defeated) before I even recognized he was the boss. No storytelling whatsoever, just hack-and-slash to the end. I mean, it's still fun, but it's not the same kind of memorable adventure or objective. Lots of "been there, done that." I so longed for a single spoken interaction with a Hakkon (other than the fight at the fisherman) or especially one of the ancient (and rare) dwarves I slaughtered so many of at the end of Descent. Then take the case of the DAO boss at the end of Denerim's blood mage warehouse: a long fight through plenty of non-speaking hostiles, lots of environments requiring tactics to survive- but when you get there you exchange words with the boss first and have the chance to "voice" a reaction before the inevitable combat. I remember instantly hating him and wanting to defeat him. This is the sort of difference DAO's approach made- making you feel the situation you're in rather than just weather it.
Non-hostile NPCs were everywhere in DAI with plenty of voiced lines- less so in cutscenes than OTS conversations, but I still enjoyed them- but no one really stood out despite talented voice acting and writing, most just relaying a note or two of relevant information to setup a quest or making the environment more lively- rather than seeming like full characters we might "bond with," so to say. No Daveth's or Jory's whatsoever. People on the forum rarely get worked up over anyone in DAI other than the companions- exceptions perhaps being Michel de Chevin (because of the DA novels), Gaspard de Chalons (?), and now Teagan (because of DAO). Which demonstrates the emphasis of DAI's development- a bit of a quantity over quality. Non-companion NPCs were pretty much minimized to give the Inner Circle the full gamut of face-time.
I'm not saying DAI's quests were lousy, mind you. I like DAI better than DAO, weighing a number of factors (not mentioning here). But DAI definitely relied more on visuals and scale than intrigue and character for creating an immersive gameworld. People complain about the size of the desert and wilderness in DAI the way they complained about the length of the Deep Roads and Fade in DAO, but I liked all of those... except that DAI's long treks did (after 100s of hrs) manage to start wearing on my patience at times. I'm not sure if I want to suggest that visuals and scale are mutually exclusive with intrigue and character, limited development resources being what they are in game design, but I have the feeling that if they had scaled back some and focused more on character-building, players would've enjoyed exploring the side areas more. Speaking for myself, yes, I would've.
Eh, Calpernia was more interesting then any of the "villains" in DAO aside from Loghain.
No, in fact the terrible graphics took me out of the atmosphere of the game quite a bit. The fantastic graphics of Inquisition actually made me feel more like I was "in" Thedas than Origins ever did. Both stories have their dark moments, innocents caught in the crossfire, tragic waste of life, the cruelties of civilization crushing the poorer... it's all still there.
Many points were raised but I would like to address the gameplay changes from origins to inquisition.
1. Gear is locked to certain classes in inquisition.
2. crafting > inquisition is broken due to crafting. craft the most simple gear and it will be 10 times better then anything you can find.
3. healing was removed, in inquisition you can't heal with magic only with health potions which are limited. this hurts the flow of the game at the start but then you reach skyhold and get fade-touched silverite and game over.
4. in origins we had splendid tactical system. I could "program" each companion to do exactly what I wanted in the moment I wanted. In fact once I've set up my companions I didn't need any tactical cameras or anything they butchered everything easily.
In inquisition at the start you need to control all of your companions but then you get crafted gear and you don't need to bother.
5. while indeed in origins you had broken builds like master race BM\AW build in inquisition it's just... sad. Sera.... she can solo anything one nightmare using her flasks... or blackwall which can't die... c'mon...
6. the companions themselves in origins were also nicer imho because they weren't locked into specified build. they had base class and 1 advanced class. you could give them whichever build you wanted and whichever advanced class you wanted. in Inquisition due to the game mechanics of no heals and only damage mitigation combined with the lock(rogue) \ Barrier (mage) \ Walls (warrior) I had to mix each time 1 of each class and respec all my rogues as range dps, all my mages as spirit support and all my warriors as S&S tanks.
otherwise I could not use some of my companions due to needed classes to clear paths or the need for support and tanks.
7. Another change gameplay wise worth note is the crafting system in origins was much nicer. you had stores selling unlimited supplies and didn't need to fiddle with respawning mats to collect all over the place, much more simple and intuitive.
8. Also gameplay wise the maps on Origins were much better imho for this type of game. they take the classic single player approach where a map is static and nothing in it will respawn once you cleared it. the fact inquisition got mmo style open world just hinder the gameplay for no reason.
I would also like to address the execution of some mission in bioware games to show the difference,
1. NWN: HOTU - > Chapter 2. you are in the drow rebel city, you destroyed the allies of the valsharess and gained allies of your own. then there is a siege at the gates... according to how you prepared yourself then the battle with execute with multiple phases and interesting mechanics..... lots of fun!
2. DA:O > Gates of denerim. first we get speech with cutscene. then all of our companions joined by the leaders of our alliance zerg the gates and fight with you to capture it! glorious!
It continues with our team capturing each part of the city, saving people and destroying the darkspawn forces, bouncing back to the gates to do the "battle" our companions which were left behind are fighting. again it was made very well and lots of fun.
3. DA:I > Siege of the adamant. we got cutscene... looks promising. then small scale battles to "clear" the ladders... which is underwhelming... where are all our mighty black templars charging up the ladders? nothing. then we get to courtyard with 1 demon to fight.... then fade. bah... what kind of underwhelming execution of mass battle this is?
If I'm allowed to sin and compare this to another game which was not 100% made by bioware but still relevant it's NWN2,
you prepare your fortress of crossroad keep, in a long and in depth mechanic to raise mighty fortress and protect the land while building your forces to stand against the king of shadows.
then when hell break lose and the fortress is assaulted you got number of phases... from defending the wall and destroying the siege towers to holding the gates with your companions and holding out until dawn arrives to drive away the shadows... it's masterpiece of siege battle missions.
Again I must sin....
NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer
final act > siege on the wall of the faithless
no words needs to be said.. you are assaulting the heavens with hosts of mighty legendary beings... each part of that mission is beautifully made.
Mechanics, gameplay and execution of quest chains in Inquisition are step down in my opinion.
I agree with alot of your points but you also get a like just for mentioning neverwinter nights 2. In Inquistion I felt like the preparation for battle and upgrading skyhold were underwhelming.
First things first: Everything that doesn't matter is still there. Wow, I'm so happy!
2nd: Funny how what matters to some is not the same that matters to others right? Still you and your "friend" seem to think that liking "subtle darkness" in a colorful world is "superior" to liking it explicit and raw in a brown world. So funny.
DAI is more "imersive" for people like you and A LOT LESS for people like me. What makes me feel "inside" the game is not a well built world but precisely what you refered to as "terrible graphics", supposing you refered to the all brown locations and generic gear. This "lifeless" world is my world, DAI is a world created by JPOP fans.
After Trespasser I enjoyed DAI but like I enjoy things from Japan, Korea and other simmilar stuff. From DA2 onwards it is impossible to take Thedas seriously for me.
But subjectivity aside compare armor design and buildings design and tell me which one is closer to real life? Of course if you selectively pick the more sober armors and building from DAI it fits real world perfectly but go for the most absurd in each game and honestly tell me DAO is not more realistic. Look at the most gigantic weapons in each game, observe battle animations and so on and please, tell me it is normal a 7 feet high "human" being jump from the top of a building and crush you with a maul even bigger than him...
And ok, I agree that DAO also had SOME unwieldable armor but it is not even close to the number present in DAI (since in DAI it is how the design is directed, towards impossible anime fantasy) and most weapons are very realistic, even the two handed ones (unlike the JRPG extravaganzza of DAI, Suledin Blade for instance)...
It is hard to argue with a person denying the difference in tone with green, yellow, pink and other colors of dragons breathing lightning and ice against a party in blue, pink and purple fashion outfits... or impossible armors... Jesus! Just compare Iron Bull and Sten! I can picture my adventure and my character in a world with a big guy like Sten, Iron Bull is just ridiculous disney movie. Also if it wasn't enough an Avvar jumping from a building(DAI JoH) or a Harlequin with super jumps (DA2 and DAI) we also have Meredith with super speed, super jump and all spark creating transformers (DA2)... sorry, not the same tone. Oh yeah, and a dude making a flotaing island in the sky because he wanted to float huge rocks to fight you more epically, he just was in the mood.
It is VERY hard to understand you people denying the huge difference between the games, seriously, because it is way too obvious. Now I understand people being able to feel darkness in DAI, when I remove all disney nickelodeon stuff from my mind I can almost see some bloody scenes as "dark", almost, but deny the difference is impossible. You can do it by comparing armor models, number of colors used in the game and their vibrance (seriously), how the scenes were presented and so on.
It is not about someone being or not able to perceive the darkness or "anything other than overt, gratuitous squick-like scenes will simply be dismissed as a sanitized Disneyland" (specially because this sentence proves there is a difference in the tone), it is because the difference is HUGE, colossal, gigantic, gargantuan. Ask your fellow designer if you still need to deny it.
So you like subtle "darkness" (which I call the Disney Nickelodeon Land), ok, no problem as long as you admit there is a huge difference and that is 100% ok for people to not like the same "darkness" you like. Meaning you fight for your Disney Nickelodeon land, me and others fight for the true darkness land, and one will never try to persuade the other because both are intelligent enough to understand it is about preferences and that in no way one will accept what the other think "dark". Easy.
There is no reason at all to try and convince people that the darkness is still there. IT IS NOT. Not what I call darkness and it is not something you can talk peope into, it is your perception of reality, it is not up for debate, it is not phylosophical, not rational, is if something activates or not or brain as stimuli. Seriously, it is like trying to talk to a gay person to become hetero... just quit it. No the darkness is not there for me, it is there for you and this will NEVER change because what strikes you as "dark" for me is a puppet show for my daughter. In fact I'd rather she watches me playing DAI than to watch Victorious or Sam & Cat, Jeanette McCurdy and Elizabeth Gillies are way more violent than Inquisition's most violent scene.
All I have to say is "Point me to the Disney films you've been watching, because nothing I've seen even remotely compares".
Tinker Bell, any, from 2008 onwards.
But beware, if Inquisition has anything dark at all for you Tinker Bell will make you have nightmares for decades to come, specially The Pirate Fairy.
I disagree entirely. I remember many posting on the old Bioware threads (me included) that we wished Daveth would've survived the Joining to become a companion- very well-liked. And Jory was another "controversial" character in that many people had strong opinions about him- emphasizing his apparent cowardice or spinning his reaction as the only brave course to take against Duncan forcing him to drink darkspawn blood. See? They both left an impression and were memorable- remembered by name even. "Weight" is exactly what getting to know them lent for the Joining scene. Their deaths were the first shock for me prior to Duncan's and Cailan's.
By contrast there are far more such characters in DAI- maybe 5-10 times as many- both NPCs and antagonists (or somewhere between)- but they were seldom memorable and often got no lines at all. I haven't completed DAI, but I've finished all the areas and DLCs prior to "Wicked Hearts" and "Abyss," and in all that time and experience with side areas/ missions I found less than a handful of NPCs who spoke first before we end up killing them or, as in JoH's Grandin's case, getting the option to recruit them instead of battle. Nearly every area quest boss was just a straight-up fight, like the boss in the Fallow Mire who just bellows first or the boss in that remote fort in the Western Approach who I actually killed (defeated) before I even recognized he was the boss. No storytelling whatsoever, just hack-and-slash to the end. I mean, it's still fun, but it's not the same kind of memorable adventure or objective. Lots of "been there, done that." I so longed for a single spoken interaction with a Hakkon (other than the fight at the fisherman) or especially one of the ancient (and rare) dwarves I slaughtered so many of at the end of Descent. Then take the case of the DAO boss at the end of Denerim's blood mage warehouse: a long fight through plenty of non-speaking hostiles, lots of environments requiring tactics to survive- but when you get there you exchange words with the boss first and have the chance to "voice" a reaction before the inevitable combat. I remember instantly hating him and wanting to defeat him. This is the sort of difference DAO's approach made- making you feel the situation you're in rather than just weather it.
Non-hostile NPCs were everywhere in DAI with plenty of voiced lines- less so in cutscenes than OTS conversations, but I still enjoyed them- but no one really stood out despite talented voice acting and writing, most just relaying a note or two of relevant information to setup a quest or making the environment more lively- rather than seeming like full characters we might "bond with," so to say. No Daveth's or Jory's whatsoever. People on the forum rarely get worked up over anyone in DAI other than the companions- exceptions perhaps being Michel de Chevin (because of the DA novels), Gaspard de Chalons (?), and now Teagan (because of DAO). Which demonstrates the emphasis of DAI's development- a bit of a quantity over quality. Non-companion NPCs were pretty much minimized to give the Inner Circle the full gamut of face-time.
I'm not saying DAI's quests were lousy, mind you. I like DAI better than DAO, weighing a number of factors (not mentioning here). But DAI definitely relied more on visuals and scale than intrigue and character for creating an immersive gameworld. People complain about the size of the desert and wilderness in DAI the way they complained about the length of the Deep Roads and Fade in DAO, but I liked all of those... except that DAI's long treks did (after 100s of hrs) manage to start wearing on my patience at times. I'm not sure if I want to suggest that visuals and scale are mutually exclusive with intrigue and character, limited development resources being what they are in game design, but I have the feeling that if they had scaled back some and focused more on character-building, players would've enjoyed exploring the side areas more. Speaking for myself, yes, I would've.
You make a good point in that, outside of main quests, there's generally less character interaction with NPCs in DAI than in the previous games, which can make the Inquisitor feel sort of detached from what they're doing. During main quests however, I think they did a rather good job at tying minor NPCs into the story. For example, as you make your way through Redcliffe castle in In Hushed Whispers, all of the named NPCs you encounter are people you could talk to in Redcliffe village (Lysas, Linnea, Hanley, Connor if he was saved in Origins, the Chantry mother).
Also I think you're overlooking a couple of important NPCs who have really captured the fandom's attention: Scout Harding (she even has her own song now), Barris, Abelas, Samson, Krem, Calpernia, Bianca (negative attention in her case), and probably a few more I'm forgetting.
No, in fact the terrible graphics took me out of the atmosphere of the game quite a bit. The fantastic graphics of Inquisition actually made me feel more like I was "in" Thedas than Origins ever did. Both stories have their dark moments, innocents caught in the crossfire, tragic waste of life, the cruelties of civilization crushing the poorer... it's all still there.
Believe what you like.
I disagree entirely. I remember many posting on the old Bioware threads (me included) that we wished Daveth would've survived the Joining to become a companion- very well-liked. And Jory was another "controversial" character in that many people had strong opinions about him- emphasizing his apparent cowardice or spinning his reaction as the only brave course to take against Duncan forcing him to drink darkspawn blood. See? They both left an impression and were memorable- remembered by name even. "Weight" is exactly what getting to know them lent for the Joining scene. Their deaths were the first shock for me prior to Duncan's and Cailan's.
By contrast there are far more such characters in DAI- maybe 5-10 times as many- both NPCs and antagonists (or somewhere between)- but they were seldom memorable and often got no lines at all. I haven't completed DAI, but I've finished all the areas and DLCs prior to "Wicked Hearts" and "Abyss," and in all that time and experience with side areas/ missions I found less than a handful of NPCs who spoke first before we end up killing them or, as in JoH's Grandin's case, getting the option to recruit them instead of battle. Nearly every area quest boss was just a straight-up fight, like the boss in the Fallow Mire who just bellows first or the boss in that remote fort in the Western Approach who I actually killed (defeated) before I even recognized he was the boss. No storytelling whatsoever, just hack-and-slash to the end. I mean, it's still fun, but it's not the same kind of memorable adventure or objective. Lots of "been there, done that." I so longed for a single spoken interaction with a Hakkon (other than the fight at the fisherman) or especially one of the ancient (and rare) dwarves I slaughtered so many of at the end of Descent. Then take the case of the DAO boss at the end of Denerim's blood mage warehouse: a long fight through plenty of non-speaking hostiles, lots of environments requiring tactics to survive- but when you get there you exchange words with the boss first and have the chance to "voice" a reaction before the inevitable combat. I remember instantly hating him and wanting to defeat him. This is the sort of difference DAO's approach made- making you feel the situation you're in rather than just weather it.
Non-hostile NPCs were everywhere in DAI with plenty of voiced lines- less so in cutscenes than OTS conversations, but I still enjoyed them- but no one really stood out despite talented voice acting and writing, most just relaying a note or two of relevant information to setup a quest or making the environment more lively- rather than seeming like full characters we might "bond with," so to say. No Daveth's or Jory's whatsoever. People on the forum rarely get worked up over anyone in DAI other than the companions- exceptions perhaps being Michel de Chevin (because of the DA novels), Gaspard de Chalons (?), and now Teagan (because of DAO). Which demonstrates the emphasis of DAI's development- a bit of a quantity over quality. Non-companion NPCs were pretty much minimized to give the Inner Circle the full gamut of face-time.
I'm not saying DAI's quests were lousy, mind you. I like DAI better than DAO, weighing a number of factors (not mentioning here). But DAI definitely relied more on visuals and scale than intrigue and character for creating an immersive gameworld. People complain about the size of the desert and wilderness in DAI the way they complained about the length of the Deep Roads and Fade in DAO, but I liked all of those... except that DAI's long treks did (after 100s of hrs) manage to start wearing on my patience at times. I'm not sure if I want to suggest that visuals and scale are mutually exclusive with intrigue and character, limited development resources being what they are in game design, but I have the feeling that if they had scaled back some and focused more on character-building, players would've enjoyed exploring the side areas more. Speaking for myself, yes, I would've.
I do not disagree that DAI lacks decent character interactions for side content. They could have scaled back a bit on the Area Design to make NPCs more fleshed out. I agree entirely that this is a serious issue with DAI. Even Skyrim's NPCs are better than this (granted I like Skyrim a lot, but that's not the point atm). However, I felt nothing for Jorey, or Daveth. I did not care at all when they died. So clearly this is not some Objective truth that it added weight and power to the scene, because that scene did nothing for me at all.
The Broodmother and Brankas House? Yes absolutely, which by the way, they tell you about, not show you. You only SEE the final result, as we often do in DAI, which seems to be the complaint here....The Broodmother is sold because of what is implied, they never show the woman being violated, ripping off her husbands face, eating their filth and bile. No, they never show any of this. It is ALL subtext. It is all told to you by Hesbeth. Even the almighty DAO did this this horrible crime of Telling rather than showing. Clearly the Broodmother must be a sanitized Tinkerbell plot because they didn't show us all the Squick and revolting violation.
I have no problems with a game showing horrible things on screen, and I'm sure most people arguing on our side feel the same way. The difference is it has to actually have a point, a purpose, not just be included for the sake of Grimdark. DAI follows the same pattern as the Broodmother, and everyone hails the Broodmother section as being gritty and disgusting. The reason for this is obvious, you actually see The Broodmother, and kill her. However, without Hesbeth being there to tell you the backstory of it's existence and how all this happened, 99% of us would have just dismissed her as a disgusting looking boss fight and called it a day. They Told you, and you bought it. They didn't need to show you the horrible gore to sell you on it. This is the point. It is not always necessary to go this route.
I do not disagree that DAI lacks decent character interactions for side content. They could have scaled back a bit on the Area Design to make NPCs more fleshed out. I agree entirely that this is a serious issue with DAI. Even Skyrim's NPCs are better than this (granted I like Skyrim a lot, but that's not the point atm). However, I felt nothing for Jorey, or Daveth. I did not care at all when they died. So clearly this is not some Objective truth that it added weight and power to the scene, because that scene did nothing for me at all.
The Broodmother and Brankas House? Yes absolutely, which by the way, they tell you about, not show you. You only SEE the final result, as we often do in DAI, which seems to be the complaint here....The Broodmother is sold because of what is implied, they never show the woman being violated, ripping off her husbands face, eating their filth and bile. No, they never show any of this. It is ALL subtext. It is all told to you by Hesbeth. Even the almighty DAO did this this horrible crime of Telling rather than showing. Clearly the Broodmother must be a sanitized Tinkerbell plot because they didn't show us all the Squick and revolting violation.
I have no problems with a game showing horrible things on screen, and I'm sure most people arguing on our side feel the same way. The difference is it has to actually have a point, a purpose, not just be included for the sake of Grimdark. DAI follows the same pattern as the Broodmother, and everyone hails the Broodmother section as being gritty and disgusting. The reason for this is obvious, you actually see The Broodmother, and kill her. However, without Hesbeth being there to tell you the backstory of it's existence and how all this happened, 99% of us would have just dismissed her as a disgusting looking boss fight and called it a day. They Told you, and you bought it. They didn't need to show you the horrible gore to sell you on it. This is the point. It is not always necessary to go this route.
That's what is missing from DAI: Hespith.
The DAI way of introducing the Broodmother would not be to make some character tell you a story: it would be to eventually find a codex entry hidden in a corner of a room that you may not have time to read at that moment, and will most likely never read because of the clunky UI (which makes it boring to read codex entries).
A note that explains what has happened is ok though, and the world is not inherently less dark depending on the way the information is transmitted to you.
But that crescendo with Hespith reciting her weird "poem" while you were going through that corridor... That's an atmosphere you don't get with a note!
It makes it more personal.
But as it has already been said, I think it boils down to the fact that DAI has big areas with limited quality content, and that they mostly focused on the inner circle, leaving most NPCs with nearly no personality. In the main quest, the characters are better, but you don't play RPGs like you play Call of Duty: I like a well written story, but role-playing games are about deviating from the story, exploring the world and the people who live there (it doesn't have to be big, but it shouldn't be empty).
We often reference Skyrim/TES when talking about DAI. I've played a bit of Morrowind and Skyrim. I really loved the liberty you get there, however, when it comes to story-telling, I really preferred Bioware games (Mass Effect, Dragon Age, or Jade Empire that I played only recently). What's missing in DAI that gives a good immersion in the Elder Scrolls games is the sense of life you get with people doing their jobs every day: in DAI, we mostly have static NPCs.
However, in both cases, the characters you may talk to are relatively bland... And that's what makes me prefer DAO: it's the blind templar in Denerim, the boy who lost his mother in Lothering (and the crazy Chasind near the chantry), Shianni (especially with city elf), the lovers in the Dalish camp (both couples), Ser Landry, the Mad Hermit, Carroll, the two guys talking near the inn across the Circle Tower, Zerlinda, and many others. That's what I miss in DAI. People (normal people). (Although there are nice characters like the mayor in Crestwood or the guy with the horses you recruit in the Hinterlands, they are few though.)
Edit: All the notes I read in Inquisition about people dying, or the Wardens I see sacrificed, these are just NPCs, not people.
That's what is missing from DAI: Hespith.
The DAI way of introducing the Broodmother would not be to make some character tell you a story: it would be to eventually find a codex entry hidden in a corner of a room that you may not have time to read at that moment, and will most likely never read because of the clunky UI (which makes it boring to read codex entries).
A note that explains what has happened is ok though, and the world is not inherently less dark depending on the way the information is transmitted to you.
But that crescendo with Hespith reciting her weird "poem" while you were going through that corridor... That's an atmosphere you don't get with a note!
It makes it more personal.
But as it has already been said, I think it boils down to the fact that DAI has big areas with limited quality content, and that they mostly focused on the inner circle, leaving most NPCs with nearly no personality. In the main quest, the characters are better, but you don't play RPGs like you play Call of Duty: I like a well written story, but role-playing games are about deviating from the story, exploring the world and the people who live there (it doesn't have to be big, but it shouldn't be empty).
We often reference Skyrim/TES when talking about DAI. I've played a bit of Morrowind and Skyrim. I really loved the liberty you get there, however, when it comes to story-telling, I really preferred Bioware games (Mass Effect, Dragon Age, or Jade Empire that I played only recently). What's missing in DAI that gives a good immersion in the Elder Scrolls games is the sense of life you get with people doing their jobs every day: in DAI, we mostly have static NPCs.
However, in both cases, the characters you may talk to are relatively bland... And that's what makes me prefer DAO: it's the blind templar in Denerim, the boy who lost his mother in Lothering (and the crazy Chasind near the chantry), Shianni (especially with city elf), the lovers in the Dalish camp (both couples), Ser Landry, the Mad Hermit, Carroll, the two guys talking near the inn across the Circle Tower, Zerlinda, and many others. That's what I miss in DAI. People (normal people). (Although there are nice characters like the mayor in Crestwood or the guy with the horses you recruit in the Hinterlands, they are few though.)
Edit: All the notes I read in Inquisition about people dying, or the Wardens I see sacrificed, these are just NPCs, not people.
See, this is not the argument being made. The whole argument is DAI "Tells and does not show". That is the entire complaint. However the Broodmother does exactly this same thing, the only difference being an NPC that exists purely to serve as an info dump, which serves the same exact purpose as "that random note". I'll also have you remember, as you said. The Main Story NPCs in DAI are much better yes? Well guess what Hespith was....a Main Story NPC. The Broodmother is not a side quest. You HAVE to go through that section of the game.
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