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The latest tweet both excites and scares me


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#76
Ahglock

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I'm speaking of the extremely linear level design. One path made up of some corridors, one door at the end of each one. No branching paths to take. Just straight ahead, down a hallway. It's the same vibe as an on-rails shooting gallery.


Yup even gears of war has some branching path options. And there goal seems to be a on-rails shooter. Just make realistic compounds or offices to some degree. Yeah lock some doors as things can get too big but more realistic maps would have built in optional paths, ways up flank or be flanked(without magic spawning enemies), loud vs quiet routes the ability to go around or avoid opposition or just go straight through them.

Not a fan if paragon/renegade system but this could allow for more of those choices in play. You are facing opposition that is not really evil(in your perspective) or an enemy do you take the long way through the map using ventilation ducts or whatever to avoid conflict. Or do you ambush them and blaze through in a quick fashion. Don't make it a lame cutscene to get to two linear maps instead have the choice be done on map in gameplay with multiple break points and branching paths.

#77
tybert7

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I'm replaying DA:I right now, with all the trials turned on in Hard mode. So I kinda need to do as much content as I can to make sure I'm strong enough to progress. And OMG I'm bored out of my mind doing a lot of the optional stuff. I have a podcast playing in the background trying to hold my attention. Sure when the game's interesting, it's interesting. But the busy work just overwhelms the good stuff. I wish I was playing DA:O, where stuff was happening.

 

This is what I can see happening in ME:A

 

  • Tons of pointless fetch quests
  • Collectibles spread out all over the map
  • Upgrade system that requires minerals. How do you get them? Oh by traveling across the map and collecting them of course!
  • Repetitive side missions
  • Pacing issues with the Main Story
  • Main Story itself is lackluster

 

Mostly speculation, I know. But I'd be shocked if some of those didn't come true. I guess we'll finally have a real idea on what this game's gonna be like by the end of the year. Bioware did say the game won't be like Inquisition, but they never went into detail how. Given how we've seen developers, Bioware included, spin their words, who knows what they mean. Sorry if I'm being cynical, but I've just grown really tired of this Open World trend.

 

 

 

Incidentally, even though many people hated the planet scanning resource gathering from ME2, I kind of LOVED that.  I liked the sort of system to home in on where the resources were.  That and I liked reading about the details of specific planets, it gave me a clear idea of what I'd want a real life universe simulator in VR to look like.  Travel to different planets in full vr and get actual known information about them.  The current data is probably sparse so some will have to be made up and embellished, but the format could be very similar to the mass effect 2 system.



#78
Mathias

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Yup even gears of war has some branching path options. And there goal seems to be a on-rails shooter. Just make realistic compounds or offices to some degree. Yeah lock some doors as things can get too big but more realistic maps would have built in optional paths, ways up flank or be flanked(without magic spawning enemies), loud vs quiet routes the ability to go around or avoid opposition or just go straight through them.

Not a fan if paragon/renegade system but this could allow for more of those choices in play. You are facing opposition that is not really evil(in your perspective) or an enemy do you take the long way through the map using ventilation ducts or whatever to avoid conflict. Or do you ambush them and blaze through in a quick fashion. Don't make it a lame cutscene to get to two linear maps instead have the choice be done on map in gameplay with multiple break points and branching paths.

 

I agree with the bolded, but I don't agree with the whole "On-rails" criticism.



#79
JeffZero

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Not entirely accurate. I played Witcher 1 & 2 before reading the books (all but the most recent are translated to english). The game actually has close to no connection to the books frankly, other than some minor details of Geralt's past and some parts about Ciri when she was a child. 

 

If you're feeling lost by the witcher 1 & 2 it's not because you didn't read the books (they won't help you understand the game / story any further since they aren't connected at all), the reason you likely are struggling (as many do it seems) is because the material is rather... dense. I love the writing in the game as it deals with complex ideas in the realities of "gray" as opposed to the overly convenient good / bad or that 99% of every game (dragon age included) deals with. Unfortunately because the game was written in polish and translated to english, it doesn't always transition with the greatest clarity. It is clear if you focus hard enough on what's going on, but the game / series definitely requires much much more attention by the player to properly follow people, places, events, lore etc. There's a great deal of it, a lot of it is complex, but if you treat the game like a novel where you need to pay close attention (as opposed to many games where you can often only passively focus on the narrative and still comprehend the majority of it with ease) then I suspect you'll no longer struggle following it and get to appreciate how unique (and incredible) this writing is for a game.

 

The game simply requires a greater level of focus by the player than most games... this may or may not be a shortcoming of the game, but once I realized I had to treat the game as if I were reading a book I was able to very thoroughly enjoy its excellent story telling. The problem is, it requires much more investment of attention to it than a game like Mass Effect or Dragon Age which can you can leisurely enjoy their narratives without having to focus intently upon the events etc.

 

Thanks. Food for thought, I suppose.

 

I have distinct memories of one particular thing in the playthrough of TW1 I attempted to watch seeming to come out of nowhere.

Spoiler
It could be that I'm misremembering. It was a real challenge trying to make sense of what I was watching at times.



#80
Dubozz

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wow this tweet totally worth a new thread

Spoiler



#81
CuriousArtemis

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Large is not positive thing for me BW game-wise. I like tighter and more coherent packets that you want to play multiple times cause they are so good instead of spending over 100 hours in one playthrough, usually most of time either collecting some weird stuff like shards or grinding.

 

Not much else to be said on the topic since dear Panda summed it up pretty well. 

 

I do fear we're to get the ME version of DAI though. DAI is perceived as a tremendous success.


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#82
Mathias

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Mass Effect 1's main story from start to finish was probably 8-10 hours. But it's one of my favorite stories of all time, and was incredibly well crafted. The replay value of the game was high, and there was plenty of side content, and YES I loved exploring planets and side content in that game, because it wasn't about the copy and pasted hideout designs, it was the little stories that came with it.



#83
CuriousArtemis

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If they're really going to go full on DAI-style open world then there needs to be either story mode or NG+. Because after you've explored this massive game and done all the tiny fetch quests the first time, you don't want to do it on a second playthrough, especially if it's a "story" type playthrough in which you just want to explore other story choice options. 



#84
von uber

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For the record, I haven't finished da:i (the thought of some of the tedium is really off putting ) yet I'm currently on my fifth me trilogy play through (albeit with some of the more grindy aspects circumvented ).
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#85
Faust1979

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Mass Effect 1's main story from start to finish was probably 8-10 hours. But it's one of my favorite stories of all time, and was incredibly well crafted. The replay value of the game was high, and there was plenty of side content, and YES I loved exploring planets and side content in that game, because it wasn't about the copy and pasted hideout designs, it was the little stories that came with it.

 

I don't do much of the filler stuff, I do some of the side quests and I appreciate that the first Mass Effect was short but crafted so well. A game doesn't need to last a hundred hours in fact I get bored with those kinds of games. Just give a thrilling story line that is to the point and that is what the Mass Effect franchise so far has done.



#86
Hathur

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Thanks. Food for thought, I suppose.

 

I have distinct memories of one particular thing in the playthrough of TW1 I attempted to watch seeming to come out of nowhere.

Spoiler
It could be that I'm misremembering. It was a real challenge trying to make sense of what I was watching at times.

 

I have the scene for you in my video playthrough, assuming this is the scene you are referencing (it's the first time encountering the Wild Hunt). The scene can be mildly confusing, but it's actually just referencing the intro of the game where Geralt is shown in a cutscene fleeing through the woods from some unknown foe (it was the Wild Hunt). Geralt suffers from amnesia in TW1 but the reason the conversation seems familiar is simply that Geralt has a vague recollection of fleeing the Wild Hunt, but that's about it (it should be noted that the Wild Hunt is common knowledge to the masses, though the game doesn't explain this well and in fact it's only really explained in parts of Witcher 2 & 3).

 

Go to 19:34 for the relevant scene.

 

 

Interesting note too... what the Wild Hunt is talking about in this brief scene (a side quest of all things) is something that occurs only in the Witcher 3... that's some crazy forward thinking planning by the writers, hehe.



#87
Mcfly616

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An on rails shooting gallery gives you one option to approach the situation, it's not the same. There were different ways to take on enemies, there were different areas of cover, there were moments that breaked away from combat, and there were different corridors to follow. There wasn't always an optional path, but they were there.

You had to go to point B, but it wasn't a literal hallway. If you want levels to be wider in design with different paths to take, that'd be great. I don't think that's the approach they're taking here.

 

You do only have one option. Walk straight ahead, kill the mooks standing right in front of you, press on down the only path we're given and you'll eventually get to where you're going because there's nowhere else to go. 

 

Yes, it was a literal linear walkway that you strolled down whilst shooting guns and using powers to kill enemies. Ohhh, a different piece of cover? Whoopdi do, it's 10 feet to the left of the piece of cover I was using last. Doesn't change the fact that this game is one of the most linear shooters on the market. Most FPS' even have more open level design than the Mass Effect sequels.

 

 

Bottom line, there is nowhere to go but straight ahead (no alternate routes, no freedom to explore, no sense of discovery), there is no other approach to combat other than killing the enemies that appear in front of your face (no passive or stealthy approach). It's a joke.



#88
Rannik

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Can't wait for open world fad to wear out.


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#89
Zekka

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Bioware should just follow my steps and the open world will be worthwile

 

 

 

Squash bugs, glitches, and other technical and performance issues. It's no secret that open world games will have lots of bugs at release but developers can always try to squash as much as possible. Quite frankly, this is one of my biggest issues with open world games. Having things like huge framerate drops, broken quests, deleted saves, AI & game freezes and more. It's really irritating playing a game and finding that you can't complete a quest because it's broken or your quick save becomes corrupted so you have to replay 2 hours worth of content again. 

No loading screens. This should be a rule and the only exception should be reloading saves and starting the game. 

The game should have a good content to size ratio. The larger the game world, the more content should be there but at the same time the content should be interesting and every difference counts. 

Make sure your open world makes sense in the context of the story/lore. If I'm on a battlefield, I don't expect hundreds of normal people to be walking around doing normal things. It doesn't make sense. Just like if I were in a desert, I'm not expecting hundreds of people just wandering around in the hot sun. 

The world itself should also be progressing as we play. I don't expect the world to be the exact same as what I saw and felt when I started the game. For the most part, this Same thing applies to the games characters. 

Limit the amount of fetch quests/missions, repetitive missions, mundane tasks, filler and chore side activities and reward the player some way for exploring. I don't think a lot of people like participating in filler material in a game and it becomes bothersome to the player especially in a second playthrough. 

Provide freedom for the player in how they can tackle their objective and limit linearity in exploration. I shouldn't always only have one way to get to somewhere except if said location is special, hidden or heavily guarded. 

Limit the amount of invisible walls and let the player traverse the world easily. I understand if the devs want to put a barrier in the game but there are ways to do this that can make sense. For example, Gothic 1 was set in a prison colony that was surrounded by a magic barrier that would let anything in but nothing out, it would shock you if you got too close. 

Make sure that game mechanics are actually good. Combat should function well, with little stiffness and have fluidity. If you have vehicular exploration make sure the vehicles controls well and it's mechanics functions properly, if you can explore on a horse make sure horse riding controls well works well. If on-foot exploration is the only way to go, make sure it works and controls well and the player is allowed to climb, run, jump, grab on things and do other things that make sense. 

Greatly limit the amount of grinding. If you have creatures in the world that can be killed to basically get xp, then make sure that they don't have unlimited spawning and they won't give you so much xp to greatly over level your character. One way to alleviate the problem is to split the story into chapters so that creatures only spawn in the beginning of chapters and their spawn points, amount of creatures spawned, and what creatures spawned are changed in the beginning of each chapter. 

Don't have unlimited resources in the world with exceptions. This is also on the issue of grinding, don't have unlimited herbs or crafting resources or items to pick up because the players will immediately exploit this. Do things in moderation and make sure certain items are far rarer than others. 

Have a day & night cycle, weather effects, different climate for different locations. It helps with the illusion that the world is alive. 

No static AI. Every AI in the game must have their own agenda as to what they do daily. People should be talking to each other, walking around, doing a job, going to sleep at the appropriate time. Let the AI do things. They should roam the world, take their horses for a ride, drive their car around to another store, even challenge the player to duels, try to steal from the player and more. AI should be reactive too. If you steal from them and you get caught, then they should either attempt to get their items back or call the authority on you. If you attack an AI they should attack back, flee or call the authority on you. If you do things against the AI then they shouldn't have a favorable opinion about you and can shun you from doing things. 

Have random events and random occurrences. Okay, this is something that a number of recent open world games tout but in reality they are somewhat scripted but they are good enough to fool the player. Having things that happen in the living world outside of a quest or mission that has nothing to do with the player but the player can still get involved helps with the illusion that the player can make an impact or is part of a living world. GTA V had this in which you can randomly find people robbing a store and you can kill them and return or take the money for yourself or help them and evade the police. 

Get rid of leveled enemies. You should remove or limit the amount of enemies that go by "level 10 skeleton" all the way up to "level 80" skeleton. Just increase the variety of creatures, monsters, mutants, aliens or whatever. A normal skeleton should have stats that stay the same throughout the game, an orc enemy should have stats that stay the same throughout the game. A fire dragon should have stats that stay the same but are different from the stats that an ice dragon has. Also, when enemies should spawn in places that make sense, no sense in seeing an ice wolf in a desert. 

Make sure to never allow the player to become to over powered, there should still be a sense of challenge from the beginning of the game till the end of the game and this ties into the enemy variety that I mentioned earlier. Let's say, in the beginning of the game you will mostly fight human or bandit level enemies during main missions, later on in the game you should be fighting warrior or paladin level enemies and this also applies for monsters too. 

Don't scale enemies and gear. You don't want to repeat the problem Elder Scrolls IV oblivion had by having bandits that had really high level gear. 

There should be some level of interactivity in the world whether it is having conversations with people or picking things up around the world, or killing any and everybody that you see, stealing, breaking into houses, looting dead people. Interactivity should be there, it should make sense and most interactive items should serve a purpose. If I kill a wolf and take it's teeth, I should be able to sell it's teeth or turn it in to someone. If I see a weapon laying on the ground, I should be able to pick it up. If you are going to have crap in your world, most of it should serve a purpose. 

Diverse locations should exist. Things like having a small town that had only intelligent super mutants living in it, or an underwater planet, or a giant prison colony. Your open world game should have somewhere that is cool or different from the norm in the world and it should be reflected by the people you find there, the items you find there and the story they tell. 

Choices and consequences for minuscule and major actions. If your game takes place in a civilized world then I expect a police force or authority to come after you. If I am carrying my gun out in the open and there are laws against it or the general populace freaks out about it, then I expect the people to flee, attack me, warn me or call the authority on me. If this is set in a world that doesn't have a general authority, then I expect people to take matters in their own hands. 

Have extra activities that can be done in the world to make the player feel like their character blow off steam in the world. Gothic 1 & 2 allow you to smoke various types of weed, Witcher 3 has gwent, GTA series has a huge variety of mini games like tennis, bike riding, racing and more.



#90
The Hierophant

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Can't wait for open world fad to wear out.

Damned Bethesda with their Skyrim and stuff. Makes me wonder what's the new trend FO4 will start.

#91
Han Shot First

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For the record, I haven't finished da:i (the thought of some of the tedium is really off putting ) yet I'm currently on my fifth me trilogy play through (albeit with some of the more grindy aspects circumvented ).

 

I got through two complete playthroughs of DA:I, but I doubt I'll ever touch the game again. It has some great moments, but there is too much tedium in between. 


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#92
Rannik

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Damned Bethesda with their Skyrim and stuff. Makes me wonder what's the new trend FO4 will start.

 

I blame the new consoles, after dealing with 256MB of RAM for almost a decade everyone is trying to fill those shiny 8GB just because.



#93
Han Shot First

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I blame the new consoles, after dealing with 256MB of RAM for almost a decade everyone is trying to fill those shiny 8GB just because.

 

Hardware is definitely part of it, but Skyrim is the biggest reason for the trend towards open world with RPGs. Any game that sells over 20 million copies, particularly when it is supposedly within a niche market, is going to have a massive impact on how other games within that genre are made.



#94
Zekka

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Bethesda fooled lots of people into believing that open world is synonymous with an rpg. Hell, they barely advertise Fallout 4 as an rpg but more as an open world game in the vein of GTA.



#95
Malanek

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I finished DAI once. I tried to play through again because there were about half a dozen big maps that I didn't even touch, pretty much every one that didn't need to get visited for the main quest. There was heaps of content I didn't see. But I just didn't feel like it, it wasn't exciting enough.



#96
SolNebula

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I blame the new consoles, after dealing with 256MB of RAM for almost a decade everyone is trying to fill those shiny 8GB just because.

 

Blaming consoles is getting quite popular.

The game has bad graphics? It's the console's limitations fault!

ME2/3 felt like shooting galleries? Console it's you again! Why are you so utterly weak?

Now next gen games are open world because finally consoles are getting better.........It's your fault console! Why are you good now? We wanted more story focused games, why can you support open areas now?

 

Poor consoles are becoming crazy. Make up your minds folks.



#97
JeffZero

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I can back up that last part. My PS4 audibly grumbled.
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#98
von uber

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Hardware is definitely part of it, but Skyrim is the biggest reason for the trend towards open world with RPGs. Any game that sells over 20 million copies, particularly when it is supposedly within a niche market, is going to have a massive impact on how other games within that genre are made.


Modding has a lot to do with that I suspect for its longevity and continued sales; something which is anathema to EA. If DA:I could be modded to improve aspects of it then I suspect I would be playing more of it, and probably have bought some DLC.

#99
themikefest

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I got through two complete playthroughs of DA:I, but I doubt I'll ever touch the game again. It has some great moments, but there is too much tedium in between. 

I've haven't played the game since I found out Descent wasn't going to be available for the ps3. At that point I had 16 playthroughs completed. I like the game. I most likely will purchased the game again when I get a ps4 so I can get Descent and Trespasse.  The side quests don't bother me since they're optional.



#100
Oldren Shepard

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flying spaghetti monster

XD