80 réponses à ce sujet

[Fredward]

And to put it in perspective, the "more" they get is hardly positive unless you're completely willing to ignore the meta aspects for RPing purposes and treat everything Solas says as a bald-face lie [because, a proper Dalish should]. In fact, given all the revelations I'd say human PCs got off super easy given everything can still be waved off for them as the will of the Maker and there is absolutely nothing presented to directly challenge that. 

 

I mean it's not like Cole suddenly spilled the beans on the "true" origins of the fade and then pointed out the "Maker" was really just some really really eager faith spirit who decided creating things to worship it was the best idea ever.

 

I actually like how the revelations kick everything you thought you knew repeatedly in the crotch. Dat angst. My Lavellan is going to go from proud yet kind Dalish to bitter, disillusioned lady who really just wants to kill the man she loved/loves. Kinda like hardened Leliana but with pointy ears and an actual connection to (one of) her gods.

[Drasanil]

I actually like how the revelations kick everything you thought you knew repeatedly in the crotch. Dat angst. My Lavellan is going to go from proud yet kind Dalish to bitter, disillusioned lady who really just wants to kill the man she loved/loves. Kinda like hardened Leliana but with pointy ears and an actual connection to (one of) her gods.

 

Honestly, I don't mind the revelations either way. Given I have no problem playing meta-divorced characters [Elgar'nan FTW!]. It was more a question of how easy human-PCs got off with out really ever having a challenge to their faith, whilst Bioware went out of its way to explicitly dismantle elven religion.

[Ashaantha]

Humans are not native to Thedas (continent), elves and dwarves are, so I am finding the extra elven history stuff absolutely fascinating even though I generally only play human characters. Nothing wrong with appreciating the new lore changes if you don't play an Elf, certainly not hurting the elves in game.. too much.. either.

[LobselVith8]

The main game and the Trespasser DLC just seem to be meant to tear down the very pillars of Dalish culture.

Blessed be the Creators! Yeah, well, they aren't actual gods. Mythal and Fen'harel are still kicking, though. Ohh and by the way... Arlathan's downfall? Not Tevinter's fault.

"You ask what happened to Arlathan? Sadly, we do not know. Even those of us who keep the ancient lore have no record of what truly happened. What we have are accounts of the days before the fall, and a fable of the whims of the gods."

They specify that they have a 'legend', and even acknowledge 'whatever the case may be' in acknowledgement that this story may be wrong. As you can see, the story about the fall of Arlathan was already said to be a fable, and they acknowledge they could be wrong about the story they commonly know. As for the Creators, they were real, and there stories about their petulance prior to the revelation by Solas. Hardly the destruction of Dalish culture.

It feels wrong to have such privilege be wasted on someone from another race, to whom this means little beyond interesting fun facts. At least a Dalish Inquisitor is likely to share all this in the next Arlathvhen.

The Dalish have aspects to their culture that can transcend these revelations - their respect for magic, their kinship with one another, their resilience against the odds. I can see them discovering this and simply moving past it. Just look at Wycome, where Clan Lavellan leads and have an alliance with Viscount Varric. Or the possibility of Comte Lavellan at Kirkwall possibly having lands and gifting them to his people, especially if the Comte is already a hero at Kirkwall like Clan Lavellan is at Wycome (Annexing Kirkwall).

At the same time, I'm very attached to my (Qunari) first character, so this is a dilemma for me. Maybe it will take me some time to decide which of my Inquisitors should be canon in the Keep.

If you're thinking this will tear down the Dalish, I think you'll be disappointed.

[Ferretinabun]

I've just started a Dalish fem Inquisitor run now to see how involved I'll feel.

 

And honestly, I'm expecting to feel torn. On one hand, the lore is obviously very elf-centric. But on the other, I expect the lack of reactivity to all this lovely lore is going to really grate on me. It's bad enough that I'll have to run around the Temple of Mythal relying on Morrigan for exposition about my own culture (for which there is, at least, a mod), but if I don't get much in the way of "WHAT?! Everything I believed is a lie?! Woe is me..." dialogue options then I'm going to be disappointed. I'll have to imagine my Lavellan just meets every revelation with silent shock.

 

I'm hoping to be wrong, of course...

[LobselVith8]

I've just started a Dalish fem Inquisitor run now to see how involved I'll feel.

And honestly, I'm expecting to feel torn. On one hand, the lore is obviously very elf-centric. But on the other, I expect the lack of reactivity to all this lovely lore is going to really grate on me. It's bad enough that I'll have to run around the Temple of Mythal relying on Morrigan for exposition about my own culture (for which there is, at least, a mod), but if I don't get much in the way of "WHAT?! Everything I believed is a lie?! Woe is me..." dialogue options then I'm going to be disappointed. I'll have to imagine my Lavellan just meets every revelation with silent shock.

I'm hoping to be wrong, of course...

There's also the issue that the protagonist uses Andrastian terminology throughout the narrative, rather than Dalish terms (due to the VO).

[vertigomez]

It's because it "means so little" to non-elves that I like playing them . >____>

My dwarves and qunari are reeeaally not torn up about whether Solas's shiny happy world is for the better. It's very much LOLNO, GTFO. I think elves in general might be... more conflicted.

[Qun00]

I've just started a Dalish fem Inquisitor run now to see how involved I'll feel.

And honestly, I'm expecting to feel torn. On one hand, the lore is obviously very elf-centric. But on the other, I expect the lack of reactivity to all this lovely lore is going to really grate on me. It's bad enough that I'll have to run around the Temple of Mythal relying on Morrigan for exposition about my own culture (for which there is, at least, a mod), but if I don't get much in the way of "WHAT?! Everything I believed is a lie?! Woe is me..." dialogue options then I'm going to be disappointed. I'll have to imagine my Lavellan just meets every revelation with silent shock.

I'm hoping to be wrong, of course...

The Inquisitor doesn't sit in a corner crying, if that is what you're expecting. But yes, s/he does react to it.

Which is fine- what's not fine is essentially discrediting everyone else's playthrough choices and slamming/minimizing other Inquisitors because they like one race the best. Personally, I find playing a Lavellan a trial because of how much there is in the game- the writing does a great deal to make the Dalish look like idiots, their "gods" look like monsters, and it turns out that the thrill of smooching one of those "gods" is only a thrill if you're okay with him viewing you as less than a person and planning to kill you and everyone you know. However, I understand why people like all of that stuff and why Inquisitor Lavellan is their favorite, and I don't give a ****. It's when players act as if their version of events should be The One True version that I get frustrated.

I don't "like" it best. The Qunari are my favorite race.

You assume the thread comes from shallow reasons like a simple matter of better and worse or playing an elf just like someone that wants a pair of matching socks.

It's a little deeper than that. These revelations mean everything to the Dalish, as it is their people's ultimate goal. Just imagine a group of men who've sought the Holy Grail their entirely lives and when an unique opportunity to travel to its location appears, that chance is handed to someone else who cares little for it.

[MrMrPendragon]

I am unable to make a handsome elven male Inquisitor so I'm sticking with human.

[Qun00]

I am unable to make a handsome elven male Inquisitor so I'm sticking with human.

It is tough, I will give you that. Just make sure to try every preset before you give up, as they do give different results.

[Wulfram]

I've just started a Dalish fem Inquisitor run now to see how involved I'll feel.
 
And honestly, I'm expecting to feel torn. On one hand, the lore is obviously very elf-centric. But on the other, I expect the lack of reactivity to all this lovely lore is going to really grate on me. It's bad enough that I'll have to run around the Temple of Mythal relying on Morrigan for exposition about my own culture (for which there is, at least, a mod), but if I don't get much in the way of "WHAT?! Everything I believed is a lie?! Woe is me..." dialogue options then I'm going to be disappointed. I'll have to imagine my Lavellan just meets every revelation with silent shock.
 
I'm hoping to be wrong, of course...

That does get frustrating sometimes. You get a ton more opportunities to reflect on "am I the Herald of Andraste" despite having basically no reason to think that you are.

Basically IIRC you get

Spoiler

An opportunity to go "WTF Mythal" to Flemeth
the conversation with Sera, which isn't much different from regular (unless she's romanced, anyway)
Potentially a romance conversation with Solas
Not much in Trespasser

[Qun00]

"You ask what happened to Arlathan? Sadly, we do not know. Even those of us who keep the ancient lore have no record of what truly happened. What we have are accounts of the days before the fall, and a fable of the whims of the gods."
They specify that they have a 'legend', and even acknowledge 'whatever the case may be' in acknowledgement that this story may be wrong. As you can see, the story about the fall of Arlathan was already said to be a fable, and they acknowledge they could be wrong about the story they commonly know. As for the Creators, they were real, and there stories about their petulance prior to the revelation by Solas. Hardly the destruction of Dalish culture.

The Dalish have aspects to their culture that can transcend these revelations - their respect for magic, their kinship with one another, their resilience against the odds. I can see them discovering this and simply moving past it. Just look at Wycome, where Clan Lavellan leads and have an alliance with Viscount Varric. Or the possibility of Comte Lavellan at Kirkwall possibly having lands and gifting them to his people, especially if the Comte is already a hero at Kirkwall like Clan Lavellan is at Wycome (Annexing Kirkwall).

If you're thinking this will tear down the Dalish, I think you'll be disappointed.

The Dalish have become something different, yes. As Abelas correctly points out, "You are not my people". But they do not desire to be different. They seek to become the same as the ancient elves and revive the past.

Now, what they do acknowledge isn't that they can be wrong about everything, but that they know little. And they have every confidence that this little they know is the truth. They pass it down to their children as if these were hard facts, as you may recall Hahren Paivel doing in the Dalish origin.

How would they receive these revelations? It is uncertain. Solas is witness to the arrogance of the Dalish, as he's tried to reason with them to no avail.

Assuming they'd listen, they wouldn't easily move past it and cannot transcend it. This is their very obsession.

[TK514]

My Inquisitor ended things with the mindset of "I don't believe a word the Dalish say from now on.  At this point, I wouldn't believe they ever lived in the Dales if someone else hadn't corroborated it."

[cami46]

Until I played Trespasser (twice so far with two different Lavellans) I never really felt disconnected when I played as a Human.  But now I am getting ready to take my Fem Human through Trespasser and I just have to wonder how I will feel when I am NOT in love with Solas and being all elfy.  My two Lavellans both had Sera with them the whole time so I might not take her and have no Elves in my party.  It will be weird. 

[Tielis]

I have pretty much only played elves from DAO, and that is the biggest reason why I dislike DA2 so much.  I love elves in every game, but DA lore is so unlike everything else out there.  I love Tolkien, but not every elf has to be like Tolkien elves.  And not every elf has to be Drow.  DA elves are kind of like an unholy marriage between the two.

 

Anyway, now that I've discovered that all the cool elven stuff you find in Trespasser (Abelas' armor, yes, please!) is available in the Golden Nug after you beat the game (which I haven't), I'm thinking of just rushing through with an assquisitor shem.

 

Or maybe make a dwarven worldstate.  Is there a thread for dwarf inquisitors?  Is it worth it to do a complete run for dwarf lore?

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish have become something different, yes. As Abelas correctly points out, "You are not my people". But they do not desire to be different. They seek to become the same as the ancient elves and revive the past.

They seek to uncover the truth about the past, but they can also adapt, as they always have; look at Clan Lavellan at Wycome as one example.

Now, what they do acknowledge isn't that they can be wrong about everything, but that they know little. And they have every confidence that this little they know is the truth. They pass it down to their children as if these were hard facts, as you may recall Hahren Paivel doing in the Dalish origin.

Actually, the codex about Arlathan mentions that they could be wrong. As for the stories told by the hahren, the enslavement of the Arlathan elves by the Imperium and the loss of the Dales, and the constant struggle to survive from day to day, come to mind. The life of the Dalish is an arduous one.

How would they receive these revelations? It is uncertain. Solas is witness to the arrogance of the Dalish, as he's tried to reason with them to no avail.

Considering how Keeper Hawen's clan accepts they were wrong about Red Crossing, and that both sides were to blame, perhaps the issue is with how the messenger delivered this information.

Assuming they'd listen, they wouldn't easily move past it and cannot transcend it. This is their very obsession.

I respectfully disagree; having the freedom to govern themselves and their own land is a goal for many Dalish, which is possible with Wycome, and possibly with Kirkwall due to the elven Comte.

[Pokemario]

I loved playing as a Dalish in DAO, especially if I romanced Morrigan. Being an elf in DAI is even more awesome!

Plus, I love DA's elven culture, so I'll always play as a Dalish if I have the chance.

 

Anyway, now that I've discovered that all the cool elven stuff you find in Trespasser (Abelas' armor, yes, please!) is available in the Golden Nug after you beat the game (which I haven't), I'm thinking of just rushing through with an assquisitor shem.

 

Wait, it is!? I thought that there wasn't a schematic for that armor!

[Ryzaki]

I had Melora as a champion sword and shield (yeah an elf tank )

 

I tried but those noodle arms make me unable to play any warrior class. I have a hard enough time watching her use a bow with those twigs. 

[Tielis]

Wait, it is!? I thought that there wasn't a schematic for that armor!

 

Someone in another thread said you get it from the "Investigate the Well of Sorrows" war table mission.  The wiki has it listed as just one set of armor that is level 15 for mages.

[Lazarillo]

That's exactly why I'm playing dalish inquisitor and likely to have it as my canon. Other races would be pleased to learn the history but for dalish its a complete world crash. 

 

I think it's pretty similarly crashing for humans, too, honestly.  Heck, I dare say it may be more of a shock to humans.  In the first couple of games, it never seemed like the Dalish actually believed any of the various myths they uncovered, while humans still have to deal with the fact that their religion of choice is pretty off the mark.  Imagine a modern day world where it's revealed Zeus and Apollo are real (but nothing like the myths)...who's going to be more shaken by such a revelation: a Christian American, or an agnostic Greek?

 

That said, I still do like the idea of an Elf as a canon Inquisitor, because I like the contrast it creates, someone who mourns the loss of what's past, but is still not willing to sacrifice everything good that has been done just to return to it.

[TheBlackAdder13]

I actually really enjoyed Trespasser with my female Vashoth rogue. The way I had played her throughout the game (extremely hard line against magic and anti-Qun -- yet saw its use and needed characters like Cole, Solas, Dorian, etc. to stop Corypheus -- and also extremely utilitarian and hypocritical in the sense that she uses magic for her own ends and overlooks the dangerous mark on her hand) made her the perfect foil to the Vidasalla.

[Guitar-Hero]

Playing as an elf would be great but they are too scrawny for me to overlook it.

[Kimarous]

In regards to the original question - "Is playing non-Dalish a disservice to elvenkind" - I'm going to answer "no" because that strikes me as needlessly judgmental of players who went into this game without knowing what the revelations were going to be.

 

Furthermore, while I do think the elven experience is enhanced by the sheer amount of elf-focused content, I don't think the other options are lessened. Heck, without intending to do so, my dwarven Inquisitor has a very rich experience that is wholly unlike that of a Solasmancer. Believing herself the Herald of Andraste, dismissing the religion of the Stone as bunk, growing curiosity of elven culture she's exposed to... only for the first to be proven wrong after the first act, the second proven to have grounding (no pun intended) in Descent, and all the elven stuff leads up to a horrible truth.

 

Just because one isn't playing an elf doesn't mean the various revelations are meaningless to them...

[KelaSaar]

All of the elfy stuff actually made me like playing a human inquisitor more.  It was fun playing a character who undercut all of the big angsty, dramatic world-changing lore stuff by being like "meh, it's a hokey ancient religion and it's probably not what it seems, oh look, I was right (high fives Sera)."  Plus, I think it shows a lot more growth on Solas's part if an non-elf is the one who makes him realize people are actually people, as opposed to someone from a direct descendant race he's probably sleeping with.