2707 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

sorry but how is turning off a toaster in any way connected to genocide.  
 
Edi said she would rather die than become a reaper puppet, as i believe did legion (the geth).  They were prepared to sacrifice themselves to defeat the reapers, so how is allowing that to happen genocide?

Life in the game goes beyond this opinion of it. EDI, Legion, the Geth, and even the Reapers are all sapient, sentient beings. This is what Destroy option chooses to kill; not a household appliance. And if they and Shepard are willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of another, that is their choice. But in Destroy, Shepard chooses genocide of a species to save his own kind when Synthesis saves many more.

And I am certain that this same Destroy mindset was utilized in such past occurrences in our own history, even when those being slaughtered were not synthetic forms of life; simply different.

[themikefest]

The reapers are just giant robots. They store what they believe is the memories of organics they killed or as they claim, harvest. The goo could be thick maple syrup for all I care. The catalyst believes its preserving life in reapers form. Yeah right. If its preserving, it wouldn't put the reapers in harms way. But again. Its a machine programmed to do what it does. Until that programming is changed, it will continue to believe that crap.

 

With destroy, there is no genocide. The geth and the edibot are things. Nothing more. No big loss when picking destroy especially if the quarians destroy the flashlights

[Natureguy85]

Life in the game goes beyond this opinion of it. EDI, Legion, the Geth, and even the Reapers are all sapient, sentient beings. This is what Destroy option chooses to kill; not a household appliance. And if they and Shepard are willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of another, that is their choice. But in Destroy, Shepard chooses genocide of a species to save his own kind when Synthesis saves many more.

And I am certain that this same Destroy mindset was utilized in such past occurrences in our own history, even when those being slaughtered were not synthetic forms of life; simply different.

I would like to know when a specific people group was killed off to stop a legitimate threat to the entire planet.

[Elhanan]

The reapers are just giant robots. They store what they believe is the memories of organics they killed or as they claim, harvest. The goo could be thick maple syrup for all I care. The catalyst believes its preserving life in reapers form. Yeah right. If its preserving, it wouldn't put the reapers in harms way. But again. Its a machine programmed to do what it does. Until that programming is changed, it will continue to believe that crap.
 
With destroy, there is no genocide. The geth and the edibot are things. Nothing more. No big loss when picking destroy especially if the quarians destroy the flashlights

While The Reapers may or may not be defined as life, the rest are by the game lore itself. Believe what you will, but closing one eyes tight is already defined in another Bioware title....

[Obadiah]

...
With destroy, there is no genocide. The geth and the edibot are things. Nothing more. No big loss when picking destroy especially if the quarians destroy the flashlights

*Cough*
And this is why I hate defending Destroy. Not because I can't justify AI as collateral damage, but because I always end up in a crowd saying dehumanizing stuff like that.
*Goes back to work*

[Natureguy85]

While The Reapers may or may not be defined as life, the rest are by the game lore itself. Believe what you will, but closing one eyes tight is already defined in another Bioware title....

That's not true. The game poses the question and I think it does want you to accept synthetics as life, but it doesn't force that view, to its credit.

[dorktainian]

Life in the game goes beyond this opinion of it. EDI, Legion, the Geth, and even the Reapers are all sapient, sentient beings. This is what Destroy option chooses to kill; not a household appliance. And if they and Shepard are willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of another, that is their choice. But in Destroy, Shepard chooses genocide of a species to save his own kind when Synthesis saves many more.

And I am certain that this same Destroy mindset was utilized in such past occurrences in our own history, even when those being slaughtered were not synthetic forms of life; simply different.

yes, but where you are not making the connection is that Edi, Legion & the Geth all accepted death was preferable to serving the reapers.  They have already accepted their fate.  They accept they are a part of the problem, and they accept their deaths may be needed.

[Elhanan]

That's not true. The game poses the question and I think it does want you to accept synthetics as life, but it doesn't force that view, to its credit.

You are correct; indicative of life are the words used, I believe. True intelligence is another term, as well as the discussions of individuality, freedom of choice, self-sacrifice, love, duty, altruism, etc.

Killing an entire species is still not the best answer presented when Synthesis is a viable choice. Destroy may have been the objective to get Shepard to the switches, but then other options are presented.

[Elhanan]

yes, but where you are not making the connection is that Edi, Legion & the Geth all accepted death was preferable to serving the reapers.  They have already accepted their fate.  They accept they are a part of the problem, and they accept their deaths may be needed.

They accept that death may be a possibility to battle the Reapers, and are willing to sacrifice themselves for Joker, their brethren, and their freedom. But I believe the dialogue dismisses the idea that organics should dismiss them casually.

[AlanC9]

I would like to know when a specific people group was killed off to stop a legitimate threat to the entire planet.

"Legitimate" in the sincere belief of the people carrying out the genocide, right?

[Natureguy85]

"Legitimate" in the sincere belief of the people carrying out the genocide, right?

 

For the sake of argument, sure. Though not really unless you want to suggest the Reaper threat was only an opinion.

[Natureguy85]

You are correct; indicative of life are the words used, I believe. True intelligence is another term, as well as the discussions of individuality, freedom of choice, self-sacrifice, love, duty, altruism, etc.

Killing an entire species is still not the best answer presented when Synthesis is a viable choice. Destroy may have been the objective to get Shepard to the switches, but then other options are presented.

Correct, "Indicative of life" is Legion's phrase when showering a visual representation of the upgraded Geth. Raan disagrees and Shepard can take either position.

If the Geth are a species or not is exactly the question. However, even assuming they are, their loss must be weighed against the problems the other options present. You like Synthesis l because you ignore its negative implications and see the proposed utopia at the end. I can't fault you for this as it is what was presented, but that's poor writing.

[Elhanan]

In the game, there are no negatives for Synthesis, other than eye color is now green.

[Iakus]

What data is this based on? You're equating the Collectors and the Reapers, but on what evidence? The Reapers we talk to in the series don't strike me as being merely drones, whereas the Collectors we talk to... oh, wait....
 

"I control the Reapers.  They are my solution"

[Iakus]

Life in the game goes beyond this opinion of it. EDI, Legion, the Geth, and even the Reapers are all sapient, sentient beings. This is what Destroy option chooses to kill; not a household appliance. And if they and Shepard are willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of another, that is their choice. But in Destroy, Shepard chooses genocide of a species to save his own kind when Synthesis saves many more.

And I am certain that this same Destroy mindset was utilized in such past occurrences in our own history, even when those being slaughtered were not synthetic forms of life; simply different.

I love how everyone calls Ashley Williams racist for her "bear and the dog analogy", when Destroy, the most popular canon ending, is in fact exactly that analogy.

[Iakus]

In the game, there are no negatives for Synthesis, other than eye color is now green.

And everyone's DNA has been rewritten against their will.

[Elhanan]

And everyone's DNA has been rewritten against their will.

True, but with no negatives except green eyes.

[Iakus]

True, but with no negatives except green eyes.

Rewriting someone's genetic code without their consent is about as big a personal violation as it gets.

[KaiserShep]

True, but with no negatives except green eyes.

That's part of my problem with it. Perhaps I'm a bit too cynical to buy into this kind of narrative, but everyone being rewritten and suddenly being happy is pretty unsatisfying.

[Elhanan]

That's part of my problem with it. Perhaps I'm a bit too cynical to buy into this kind of narrative, but everyone being rewritten and suddenly being happy is pretty unsatisfying.

I look at it as everyone is no longer at war, and is celebrating life going forward; pretty much like the end of wars.

[Obadiah]

In the game, there are no negatives for Synthesis, other than eye color is now green.

Synthesis cockroaches. Synthesis mosquitoes. Synthesis tapeworm. Think about it. Can't kill 'em. We are all connected.

[AlanC9]

*Cough*And this is why I hate defending Destroy. Not because I can't justify AI as collateral damage, but because I always end up in a crowd saying dehumanizing stuff like that.*Goes back to work*

Hey, this is what we signed up for. If you want to put moral issues in play, some folks are gonna be wrong.

[AlanC9]

Rewriting someone's genetic code without their consent is about as big a personal violation as it gets.

Agreed. You can go pure utilitarian or something there and say that freedom and dignity are just noise anyway, but I don't think Elhanan would be very convincing at advocating that position.

[Natureguy85]

I love how everyone calls Ashley Williams racist for her "bear and the dog analogy", when Destroy, the most popular canon ending, is in fact exactly that analogy.

I like how they call her racist despite humans being the dog in the analogy.

[Iakus]

I look at it as everyone is no longer at war, and is celebrating life going forward; pretty much like the end of wars.

 

Actually aren't they just standing around looking confused?