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[BloodyMares]

They accept that death may be a possibility to battle the Reapers, and are willing to sacrifice themselves for Joker, their brethren, and their freedom. But I believe the dialogue dismisses the idea that organics should dismiss them casually.

You misunderstand. Every one of them is a soldier. EDI and all the Geth platforms. And soldiers by definition are ready to accept death for the victory. That's exactly what happens in Destroy. It's not genocide because genocide is a deliberate killing of a group. In Destroy ending, the only 'genocide' is against the Reapers, other synthetics are a small sacrifice. In Synthesis you sacrifice too much to save the little. You destroy both synthetics and organics and instead create some monstrosity.

[Elhanan]

If the enemy kills all the soldiers of one race, that is genocide: the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

This is not a willing sacrifice made by all synthetics; it is their extermination. Well, until the whole mess starts up again....

[BloodyMares]

This is not a willing sacrifice made by all synthetics

But it is. Everyone knows the stakes and accepts the price. They don't fight for themselves, they fight for everyone.

[Elhanan]

But it is. Everyone knows the stakes and accepts the price. They don't fight for themselves, they fight for everyone.

Soldiers know they may die in battle, but I doubt that all of one race would take a step forward to be sacrificed, esp if they knew it meant the extinction of their race. Well, at least until the next wave appears again.

[Obadiah]

How we ganna eat Synthesis shrimp now, huh? We are all connected to the shrimp.

[Natureguy85]

If the enemy kills all the soldiers of one race, that is genocide: the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

 

 Actually the killing itself has to be intentional, meaning the Geth in this case would have to be the target of the action. This is why i made the distinction between "genocide" and "collateral damage." You can still argue that the latter is too great a cost for Destroy, but let's not equate the two things. The mindset is different.

 

 

Soldiers know they may die in battle, but I doubt that all of one race would take a step forward to be sacrificed, esp if they knew it meant the extinction of their race. Well, at least until the next wave appears again.

 

Hey, new Synthetics won't be Geth, you space racist.

[Obadiah]

Just thinking about people's different ideas about Synthesis, how it was described by the Catalysts, and how it is depicted in the epilogue, which is just as an idea for an technological developmental jump, it would be difficult to accurately predict how that would look, and what it would mean for civilization. That's probably why its description is so non-specific (just thinking about how much our lives have changed over the last 20 years with tech explosion).

It really is a leap of trust, with our enemy. Its a bit unfortunate that the developers didn't give us more of a reason to trust the Catalyst. I suppose the biggest reason to trust it is that it is speaking to us at all, and not leaving us to flounder around in ignorance in that chamber, and much of its information is coroborated by Leviathan. But still, how much can you really trust an entity like that?

[Blood Mage Reaver]

Well...

 

The problem for me is how the choices are presented. Like some said, there is no reason for Shepard to trust the Catalyst in their first meeting and every option besides Destroy basically tells Shepard to commit suicide with no proof of what will happen if he does.

 

I mean, would you rather grab exposed wire, jump into a beam of anti-matter or just shoot something that will reliably explode?

 

BioWare should have made the Control and Synthesis choices less obviously suicidal so that Shepard doesn't need to have a death wish or be extremely stupid in order to choose them.

 

Control should have been more like when Shepard plugged into the Geth network, a complex interface which would digitalize the very essence into a virtual existence. You should connect to that interface instead of grabbing exposed wires in order to upload yourself.

 

Synthesis, likewise, should provide you with another high tech gizmo like a Synthesis core which Shepard must fuse with to complete instead of jumping into an energy beam that will vaporize the commander.

[Elhanan]

Just thinking about people's different ideas about Synthesis, how it was described by the Catalysts, and how it is depicted in the epilogue, which is just as an idea for an technological developmental jump, it would be difficult to accurately predict how that would look, and what it would mean for civilization. That's probably why its description is so non-specific (just thinking about how much our lives have changed over the last 20 years with tech explosion).

It really is a leap of trust, with our enemy. Its a bit unfortunate that the developers didn't give us more of a reason to trust the Catalyst. I suppose the biggest reason to trust it is that it is speaking to us at all, and not leaving us to flounder around in ignorance in that chamber, and much of its information is coroborated by Leviathan. But still, how much can you really trust an entity like that?

Enough trust to pull the switch it marked as Destroy, it seems. If one cannot believe it to go for Synthesis, there is also no valid reason to believe the other switches will do anything as described either.

The problem with the Catalyst and the Reapers are that they are running on an incomplete program. Synthesis fixes that oversight, end the War and between the races, and provides cooperation towards a peaceful future.

For myself, it is much the same as occurred on Rannoch when I told Loghain to stop firing on the Geth, and hold on to hope for peace. The admiral did not trust Legion and the Geth, but trusted Shepard enough to cease fire. On the Citadel, it is hope for peace that drives Shepard; not trust in the enemy.

[gothpunkboy89]

You misunderstand. Every one of them is a soldier. EDI and all the Geth platforms. And soldiers by definition are ready to accept death for the victory. That's exactly what happens in Destroy. It's not genocide because genocide is a deliberate killing of a group. In Destroy ending, the only 'genocide' is against the Reapers, other synthetics are a small sacrifice. In Synthesis you sacrifice too much to save the little. You destroy both synthetics and organics and instead create some monstrosity.

When you wipe out an entire race it is genocide.

[Obadiah]

When you wipe out an entire race it is genocide.

Stipulated. But like the designation "collateral damage" it is really just a label, and doesn't address the rationale behind the decision.

[themikefest]

Shepard doesn't wipe out any species

[gothpunkboy89]

Shepard doesn't wipe out any species

 

 

Destroy wipes out the Geth. Which are a unique group of life forms. Also wipes out the Reapers that equally fit that bill. And if you side with Geth or Quarians over the other you set it up and stand by for one race to commit genocide on another.

 

And that isn't even counting the Rachni in ME 1.

[themikefest]

Like I said, Shepard doesn't wipeout any species

[gothpunkboy89]

Like I said, Shepard doesn't wipeout any species

 

I would count pushing the button that releases an acid dissolving the Rachni Queen, Activating the purge button on Noveria as well as the many times you can hunt down and wipe out Rachni nests as genocide.
 

Purposefully setting either Geth or Quarian up to be slaughtered by the other counts as Genocide

 

Willing choosing to wipe out two very unique life forms because 1 is causing problems is genocide.

 

By your logic if I cut the breaks to someone's car and they die in an accident I didn't actually kill them. So I should be able to brag about it without consequences. Because effectively that is what Shepard does over and over again. I do have to say you certainly display an interesting mentality some times.

[themikefest]

Breaks? So you want to cut someone's break? What does that mean? Do they work for hours before having a few minutes of rest?

 

Or do you mean Brakes? You must mean that since you mention car.

 

Thanks for the laugh. Just what the doctor ordered. Another analogy about nothing

[Elhanan]

Weather ore knot one chooses to ridicule another over spelling is ear elephant, esp Wynne sew many hear have English as a second language.

And continuing to repeat something inaccurate does not make it true. While one may have played a game where Shepard did not exterminate the Rachni, Geth, Quarians, etc, (though I doubt it), selecting Destroy kills all Synthetic life which does appear to be in every version of the game; even if one does not hold them to be alive.

[gothpunkboy89]

Breaks? So you want to cut someone's break? What does that mean? Do they work for hours before having a few minutes of rest?

 

Or do you mean Brakes? You must mean that since you mention car.

 

Thanks for the laugh. Just what the doctor ordered. Another analogy about nothing

Actually it is in the statement of Shepard himself does not pull the trigger for the deaths to happen. Instead he sets up the situation to allow it to happen.

 

AKA instead of stabbing/shooting the driver of the car. By sabotaging the breaks Shepard sets up a situation were they will die.

[themikefest]

nevermind

[Natureguy85]

Actually it is in the statement of Shepard himself does not pull the trigger for the deaths to happen. Instead he sets up the situation to allow it to happen.

AKA instead of stabbing/shooting the driver of the car. By sabotaging the breaks Shepard sets up a situation were they will die.

I didn't know Shepard rigged Destroy purposely to kill the Geth. Here i thought that was just how it was designed.

[gothpunkboy89]

I didn't know Shepard rigged Destroy purposely to kill the Geth. Here i thought that was just how it was designed.

 

By picking that option it is setting the Geth up to be wiped out. Could be malevolent reasons why could be other reasons but the fact still is the choice leads directly to the death of the entire Geth race by his actions.

[corkyspetals]

BioWare should have made the Control and Synthesis choices less obviously suicidal so that Shepard doesn't need to have a death wish or be extremely stupid in order to choose them.

 

 

That's an interesting point.  Why DIDN'T they do that?  Aside from the destroy, control, synthesis choices, why did only one of them allowing Shepard to survive?  They could have let Shepard survive in all endings,  or die in all endings.

 

Either Bioware tried to influence us into thinking the right answer is destroy (and make paragons uneasy by choosing the red ending)  OR  they wanted it to be a face value decision and say that if we selfishly want to survive, we'd have to kill our friends in the process.  There is a lot of dialog near the end about synthetics being alive, and let us not forget:

 

Garrus: I'm starting to understand why the galaxy needs cold hearted dictators every now and then.
Shepard: They get things done?
Garrus: They don't give a damn about the consequences.
Garrus: Suppose that's what it's going to take, Shepard, the ruthless calculus of war. Ten billion people over here die so twenty billion over there live.
Garrus: Are we up for that? Are you?

Paragon response: If we reduce this war to arithmetic, we are no better than the reapers.
Renegade response: If all life in the galaxy vanishes because we hesitate, what chance do we have?

 

 

So far I've been comfortable with my Paragon/destroy approach.  I may try a control ending next time.   But I think Bioware wanted us to squirm while choosing.  They didn't want us to have a fairy tale ending.

 

 

Sacrifice yourself and spend eternity trying to control the monsters

 

Create peace and force a change in the nature of all living things through synthesis

 

Destroy your enemies as well as your friends

[Natureguy85]

By picking that option it is setting the Geth up to be wiped out. Could be malevolent reasons why could be other reasons but the fact still is the choice leads directly to the death of the entire Geth race by his actions.

That's true but the mindset and intent matter when we discuss the decision. It's only genocide if the intent was to kill the Geth.

[Elhanan]

That's true but the mindset and intent matter when we discuss the decision. It's only genocide if the intent was to kill the Geth.

The term may possibly change, but the extermination of an entire species remains the same.

[Natureguy85]

The term may possibly change, but the extermination of an entire species remains the same.

 

Not possibly, absolutely. The two are different and the distinction is important when discussing the morality of the choice. Your second half is correct, though I find it interesting that you again roll all Synthetics into one species as opposed to recognizing several distinct Synthetic species.