2407 réponses à ce sujet

[dorktainian]

Because Shepard is alive? I am be ok with Shep dying, if the tradeoff was worth it and/or meaningful. Actually I choose Control in my first playthrough, because it would minimize further casualties and you could rebuild the galaxy faster (let the Reapers repair what they smashed to bits and pieces). Or that was my thought at the time. After the Shepalyst opened his mouth and talked about thisgreat future of his, I became horrified and reloaded.

don't get me wrong, shepard dying for something worth dying for would be great.  control and synthesis are not worth dying for.

[Dantriges]

Ah ok. That was my take on it as well. I think I can get when some people say, my Shep wouldn´t turn into the omnipotent space dictator, Shepalyst is still my Shep and everything´s ok with some headcanon thrown in. For me, his speech was too jarring and too far away from anything I could stil label as this person is still my Shep in the inner core. And well, considering that your uploaded mind jumped from mushy brain in skull into supercomputer, it´s really unlikely.

[GalacticWolf5]

I'd like to pick apart your assumption that Shepard can control the reapers after his death.  Shepard is.... dead.  How is he meant to control anything?  Tis a reaper trap and you would fall for it?

 

Uhm, have like seen the epilogue or what? Control clearly works. As the Intelligence explains, Shepard's mind is pretty much uploaded and replaces the Intelligence as the Reaper master consciousness.

 

I'd like to pick apart Synthesis.  The catalyst/reaper wants synthesis.  It is a part of it's solution and should not be trusted.  Once again why would you choose the mass genetic re-write of every sapient creature in the galaxy?  Thanks for dooming us all, just like happened to the protheans.

 

You speak as if the Intelligence did this only to be evil xD That's foolish and also that's proof that you don't understand the Reapers or the Intelligence. Synthesis doesn't doom anyone, it actually makes them better and achieves lasting piece between Organics and Synthetics.

 

Self determination not withstanding, I'd blow the reapers to kingdom come and not even think about it.  Anything else and YOU are indoctrinated, and that is a fact.

 

Suuuure. The only fact I see in what you said is that you don't understand the Reapers/Intelligence.

 

By the way, the Intelligence tells you that you have shoot a tube to make it blow up to then kill the Reapers and you believe it right off the bat? That's pretty hypocritical of you. What if it's trying to trick you? That tube seems important to the Crucible, what if shooting it breaks the Crucible? You could doom the entire galaxy. You'd take that chance?

 

The only ending choice which has you survive is Destroy.

 

 You can die in Destroy too. You only live if your EMS is higher than 3100.

[dorktainian]

Uhm, have like seen the epilogue or what? Control clearly works. As the Intelligence explains, Shepard's mind is pretty much uploaded and replaces the Intelligence as the Reaper master consciousness.

 

 

You speak as if the Intelligence did this only to be evil xD That's foolish and also that's proof that you don't understand the Reapers or the Intelligence. Synthesis doesn't doom anyone, it actually makes them better and achieves lasting piece between Organics and Synthetics.

 

 

Suuuure. The only fact I see in what you said is that you don't understand the Reapers/Intelligence.

 

By the way, the Intelligence tells you that you have shoot a tube to make it blow up to then kill the Reapers and you believe it right off the bat? That's pretty hypocritical of you. What if it's trying to trick you? That tube seems important to the Crucible, what if shooting it breaks the Crucible? You could doom the entire galaxy. You'd take that chance?

 

 

 You can die in Destroy too. You only live if your EMS is higher than 3100.

 

I = Shep.  Roleplaying is ace.

 

all the above points would be fine.... if you believe anything the so called intelligence says.. Which I don't.  I went in there to blow the reapers to kingdom come and low and behold one of the options is just that.  Now if my EMS is not up to scratch then I die, but I die doing what I wanted. I'm fine with that because the reapers die.  If my EMS is OK then I survive, which is a bonus.  None of the other endings apart from refusal has me surviving or destroying reapers at all.  Control?  Yes of course shep was uploaded, became the human reaper (which is what the reapers wanted), lost all traces of his humanity and went on to lead the reapers in their course of mass murder and genocide.  Synthesis?  Again Shep becomes the human reaper, but this time every creature is synthesised.  You do realise that Synthesis is also a term that could be used for the creation of a false reality don't you?  

 

Again I went in there to wipe out the reapers.  Nothing TIM said changed my mind.  Nothing starjar said changed my mind.  The reapers were the problem and I was the solution.  Goodbye reapers.

[gothpunkboy89]

You want to save the reapers?  Really?  they are worth saving at our expense?  

Didn't read the rest of my posts did you?

[dorktainian]

Didn't read the rest of my posts did you?

it's a query.  You could have always answered with..... oh what's that word i'm looking for?

 

No.

[gothpunkboy89]

it's a query.  You could have always answered with..... oh what's that word i'm looking for?

 

No.

 

I have a few post conversation with a player regarding that initial statement that you seemed to have ignored. I could have told you the answer you wanted but it was right there waiting for you.  The replies that answered your question were even on the same page.

 

Literally 1 post separated the post you quoted with my second post that says if given no other choice I'd still kill off the Reapers. And it wasn't even like it was separated by a long multi paragraph post either. The guy said like 7 words.

[GalacticWolf5]

I = Shep.  Roleplaying is ace.

 

all the above points would be fine.... if you believe anything the so called intelligence says.. Which I don't.  I went in there to blow the reapers to kingdom come and low and behold one of the options is just that.  Now if my EMS is not up to scratch then I die, but I die doing what I wanted. I'm fine with that because the reapers die.  If my EMS is OK then I survive, which is a bonus.  None of the other endings apart from refusal has me surviving or destroying reapers at all.  Control?  Yes of course shep was uploaded, became the human reaper (which is what the reapers wanted), lost all traces of his humanity and went on to lead the reapers in their course of mass murder and genocide.  Synthesis?  Again Shep becomes the human reaper, but this time every creature is synthesised.  You do realise that Synthesis is also a term that could be used for the creation of a false reality don't you?  

 

Again I went in there to wipe out the reapers.  Nothing TIM said changed my mind.  Nothing starjar said changed my mind.  The reapers were the problem and I was the solution.  Goodbye reapers.

 

I like how you completely ignored everything I said about shooting the tude XD

 

So, in Control, Shepard becomes a Human-Reaper and starts mass murdering people?

 

Spoiler

 

So, in Synthesis, Shepard becomes a Human-Reaper?

 

Spoiler

 

Did we play the same game?

 

all the above points would be fine.... if you believe anything the so called intelligence says.. Which I don't.

 

(Again) But you blindly believe it when it tells you that shooting a tube would destroy every Reaper?

[rossler]

So, in Control, Shepard becomes a Human-Reaper and starts mass murdering people?

 

So, in Synthesis, Shepard becomes a Human-Reaper?

 

EDI as well.

 

This was actually foreshadowed quite well in the previous games.

 

EDI (ME2): Reapers are sapient constructs. A hybrid of organic and inorganic material. They may be facilitating the Reaper equivalent of reproduction.

 

EDI (ME3): As the line between synthetic and organic disappears, we may transcend mortality itself.

Harbinger (ME2): Thank us, beg us for immortality.

EDI (ME3): To reach a level of existence I cannot even imagine.

Harbinger (ME2): Your species will razed to a new existence. That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction.

 

Shepard: Eternal, immortal, infinite

Saren: We are the pinnacle of creation. Immortal, infallible, perfect. (in a Reaper voice, like Shepard)

Shepard: I will destroy those who threaten the future of the many

 

In ME1, the Reapers are referred to as Legion. In ME3, they refer to themselves as Many. It essentially means the same thing. A very large indefinite number.

 

Anyone who tries to destroy the Reapers (the galaxy which you helped forge all those alliances to help destroy the Reapers) will be destroyed themselves. Shepard essentially switched sides and is now working as an agent of the Reapers under their control. Not as the savior of the galaxy you thought he was.

[Dani86]

Control 'works' until a few hundred years from now when everyone Shepard has every cared about is dead (except Liara maybe) so he decides that he is really bored and he decides to make everyone worship him as a God and dance for his amusement or else. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. 

 

Synthesis 'works' but how?! Can Edi now bear children even though she has a metal body? Can the people formerly known as organics still have kids or is 'reproduction' now just a matter of downloading into a new platform? If these synthesized 'people' are truly individuals with their own individual thoughts, then the next war between them (and there will be other wars because individuals fight over stuff) will just be even nastier. 

 

Destroy puts the galaxy back to square one like before the stupid, arrogant Leviathan began their experiment with everyone in the galaxy. It gives every species that exists or who will exist the chance to determine their own future and maybe, just maybe, not make the same mistakes as those who came before them.  

[fhs33721]

Destroy puts the galaxy back to square one like before the stupid, arrogant Leviathan began their experiment with everyone in the galaxy. It gives every species that exists or who will exist the chance to determine their own future and maybe, just maybe, not make the same mistakes as those who came before them.  

People actually learning to stop making the same mistakes over and over again? This seems more unrealistic than Synthesis ever could be.

[GalacticWolf5]

EDI as well.

 

This was actually foreshadowed quite well in the previous games.

 

EDI (ME2): Reapers are sapient constructs. A hybrid of organic and inorganic material. They may be facilitating the Reaper equivalent of reproduction.

 

EDI (ME3): As the line between synthetic and organic disappears, we may transcend mortality itself.

Harbinger (ME2): Thank us, beg us for immortality.

EDI (ME3): To reach a level of existence I cannot even imagine.

Harbinger (ME2): Your species will razed to a new existence. That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction.

 

No. Just no.

 

No one becomes a Human-Reaper in Control or Synthesis.

 

In Control, Shepard takes the place of the Intelligence. He isn't harvested into a Reaper or turned into a Reaper Husk, he becomes the master consciousness of the Reapers (just like the Intelligence was).

 

In Synthesis, the line between Organic and Synthetic disapears, but that doesn't mean they become Reapers. They clearly don't, as seen in the epilogue.

 

Saren: We are the pinnacle of creation. Immortal, infallible, perfect. (in a Reaper voice, like Shepard)

Shepard: I will destroy those who threaten the future of the many

 

In ME1, the Reapers are referred to as Legion. In ME3, they refer to themselves as Many. It essentially means the same thing. A very large indefinite number.

 

 

1) I'm pretty sure it's Sovereign who says that while assuming control of Saren, so of course it's gonna be in a Reaper voice. Shepard, however, does not speak in a Reaper voice in the Control epilogue.

 

2)That quote is only in the Renegade version of Control. Have you seen the Paragon version? It's much different.

 

3) The Reapers never refer to themselves as the Many. When Shepard speaks of the many, he means the species of the galaxy.

 

Anyone who tries to destroy the Reapers (the galaxy which you helped forge all those alliances to help destroy the Reapers) will be destroyed themselves. Shepard essentially switched sides and is now working as an agent of the Reapers under their control. Not as the savior of the galaxy you thought he was.

 

Shepard doesn't switch sides.

[Cooperb21]

Playing through the series again on ps3, i have to agree with the fact that destroy is the best ending. There is way to much risk in the other two main ending's. People just don't want to kill of there favorite characters at the cost of the greater good of the galaxy. All my playthroughs i do now renegade or paragon all end with destroy. As much i love alot of the other character's i hope they understand my choice's and need to do what i did. The reapers are to big a risk. Doing anything else denies the hole plot and story of the series which is all about stopping the reaper's there was a reason for it. 

[rossler]

People just don't want to kill of there favorite characters at the cost of the greater good of the galaxy.

This is war, there are going to be casualties. Some die for no good reason. The game says as much.

 

Some souls die in battle, some die in their sleep and some die for no reason at all.

[Dani86]

People actually learning to stop making the same mistakes over and over again? This seems more unrealistic than Synthesis ever could be.

 

 I agree, it's a long shot but it's one that I think everyone deserves. Maybe I'm showing my cultural biases here but I'll take chaos/self-determination (democracy) over order (dictatorship) any day of the week and twice on Sunday.  

[Iakus]

Playing through the series again on ps3, i have to agree with the fact that destroy is the best ending. There is way to much risk in the other two main ending's. People just don't want to kill of there favorite characters at the cost of the greater good of the galaxy. All my playthroughs i do now renegade or paragon all end with destroy. As much i love alot of the other character's i hope they understand my choice's and need to do what i did. The reapers are to big a risk. Doing anything else denies the hole plot and story of the series which is all about stopping the reaper's there was a reason for it. 

Saying Destroy is the best ending is kind of like saying a punch in the nose is better than a kick to the groin.  Technically true, but still not in any way desirable.

 

I'd call it the "least bad" option.  The best of a very, very  bad lot.

[Jeniva]

Ok I'm sorry if this has been brought up before. I've only ever done extended cut endings and in the extended cut destroy it's not really mentioned what  happens to the geth. I know all synths are meant to die...but I spotted a forum post before about geth being a network. So how could they all be truly destroyed? 

Also where are the quarians on the slide? They look to be in some super swanky super futuristic awesome place. Same as control slide. http://masseffect.ki...g/Control02.jpgSurely not their homeworld? Didn't look much like that when I was there!!

But yeah I've just completed again and I had to go with destroy AGAIN. I don't really care if Shepard dies, if there's a good enough ending. But I don't trust control, and Shepard doesn't really die she just turns into some weird reaper basically. And I'm on the fence with synth still...it's just a bit weird. 
I will with my thane-mancer shep go with synth though, I actually WANT her to die and should really try a different ending for once. Poor geth...

I'm curious what squad mates would choose. I even think if you told Joker who was romancing EDI about the endings he'd still choose Destroy, I mean Joker hates the reapears and he is not going to trust them under control or synth. 

[Han Shot First]

I think the majority of the squadmates would have chosen Destroy, with the exception of EDI, Legion, and Morinth. 

[gothpunkboy89]

 I agree, it's a long shot but it's one that I think everyone deserves. Maybe I'm showing my cultural biases here but I'll take chaos/self-determination (democracy) over order (dictatorship) any day of the week and twice on Sunday.  

Why is order equated with dictatorship?

 

Particularly when chaos/self determination leads to unnecessary suffering and death? Is the ability to cause pain to other people considered freedom to you? Because got to admit that is pretty mucked up when you equate that to good. And Order which would prevent that to bad dictatorship.

[Dani86]

Why is order equated with dictatorship?

 

Particularly when chaos/self determination leads to unnecessary suffering and death? Is the ability to cause pain to other people considered freedom to you? Because got to admit that is pretty mucked up when you equate that to good. And Order which would prevent that to bad dictatorship.

 

Just using real life examples here. We assume that the other races in the galaxy are like humans so we have to look at human behavior. Show me a place on Earth where there is order and I will show you a dictatorship. Freedom and chaos often go hand in hand. Likewise, forcing people to be good or siccing the reapers on them (Control--a literal dictatorship where the King/God can never be dethroned) or forcing them to become mutated synthetic hybrids 'for their own good' (Synthesis) is just about as dictatorial as one can get. 

[Dani86]

I think the majority of the squadmates would have chosen Destroy, with the exception of EDI, Legion, and Morinth. 

 

For very different reasons! Can you imagine Morinth in control of the reapers? I like to think that Edi would have chosen destroy as well. She saw the evil that the reapers did. She saw them as an 'abomination' and said they must be stopped at all cost. Shepard was willing to die to stop the reapers and she was Edi's role model. I don't think the Catalyst's speech about how they were really trying to do the right thing would have changed that. I think she would have taken that shot herself if she were there instead of Shepard, willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good. 

[dorktainian]

(Again) But you blindly believe it when it tells you that shooting a tube would destroy every Reaper?

No.  I believe shooting the tube severs shepards last connection to the reapers, and that this action allows him to 'wake up'.

 

The fun part of this is what shepard might have done under the reapers influence - things he and us might not find out about until MEA.

[gothpunkboy89]

Just using real life examples here. We assume that the other races in the galaxy are like humans so we have to look at human behavior. Show me a place on Earth where there is order and I will show you a dictatorship. Freedom and chaos often go hand in hand. Likewise, forcing people to be good or siccing the reapers on them (Control--a literal dictatorship where the King/God can never be dethroned) or forcing them to become mutated synthetic hybrids 'for their own good' (Synthesis) is just about as dictatorial as one can get. 

 

 

Every society that has ever and will ever existed is a dictatorship to you?  Because that is kind of how society works. A group of people agree to live near each other and abide by a set of rules. Anyone who breaks those rules gets punished. In a way again the society determines is the ideal way to punish them.  Now the laws might differ as well as method of punishment from society to society. How ever in every case the laws and repercussions for breaking those laws exist to impose order into the chaos of the world.  You are literally saying the entirety of human history has been a dictatorship some how.

 

Freedom is a meaningless term pure and simple. Chaos is part of the order of the universe how ever the counter point is always any being creating order to counter balance it. This can come in many different shapes and forms. Wolves live in large family packs for protection and increased efficiency in hunting with a pack hierarchy. Creating order from the chaos. Humans agree to live by set laws and punish people who break those laws. Creating order from chaos.

 

The only time freedom and chaos go hand in hand is when the jack asses like that giant gaping festering ass hole who walked into an abortion clinic then killed people.  Or that whole stupidity in Oregon were the "militia" decided they have the freedom to take a government building by force and threaten violence  to anyone who tries to remove them. Because of freedom.

[Dani86]

Every society that has ever and will ever existed is a dictatorship to you?  Because that is kind of how society works. A group of people agree to live near each other and abide by a set of rules. Anyone who breaks those rules gets punished. In a way again the society determines is the ideal way to punish them.  Now the laws might differ as well as method of punishment from society to society. How ever in every case the laws and repercussions for breaking those laws exist to impose order into the chaos of the world.  You are literally saying the entirety of human history has been a dictatorship some how.

 

Freedom is a meaningless term pure and simple. Chaos is part of the order of the universe how ever the counter point is always any being creating order to counter balance it. This can come in many different shapes and forms. Wolves live in large family packs for protection and increased efficiency in hunting with a pack hierarchy. Creating order from the chaos. Humans agree to live by set laws and punish people who break those laws. Creating order from chaos.

 

The only time freedom and chaos go hand in hand is when the jack asses like that giant gaping festering ass hole who walked into an abortion clinic then killed people.  Or that whole stupidity in Oregon were the "militia" decided they have the freedom to take a government building by force and threaten violence  to anyone who tries to remove them. Because of freedom.

 

I am saying that as freedom increases, so does chaos. Why are there so many shootings in the US? Why are armed men allowed to take over a federal building with assault weapons? Because, unlike other '1st world' countries, we have the freedom to own as many guns as we want with few practical restrictions. Why was the crime rate so low in communist Russia? Because it was a dictatorship with low levels of personal freedoms. The balance between freedom/chaos and control/order is along a sliding scale. Unlike our forced decision in ME3, in real life, it is not a dramatic choice between one or the other but the parallels are there none the less. 

[gothpunkboy89]

I am saying that as freedom increases, so does chaos. Why are there so many shootings in the US? Why are armed men allowed to take over a federal building with assault weapons? Because, unlike other '1st world' countries, we have the freedom to own as many guns as we want with few practical restrictions. Why was the crime rate so low in communist Russia? Because it was a dictatorship with low levels of personal freedoms. The balance between freedom/chaos and control/order is along a sliding scale. Unlike our forced decision in ME3, in real life, it is not a dramatic choice between one or the other but the parallels are there none the less. 

 

Incorrect on all accounts there. The ability to own guns isn't what causes gun violence.   If you removed guns from the equation the people that kill other people would still do it. They would just find alternative methods. If not shooting someone then stabbing them. If not stabbing them beating them in the head with a blunt object.  I could kill someone with an 8 lbs frozen turkey in the freezer section of the nearest grocery store. Time and time again Kings, Emperors, Presidents and Prime Ministers  and Dictators have restricted or limited access to weapons. And yet time and time again people still killed, raped and stole.

 

Got any statistics ti back up claim? Because countries like Japan skit around the edges some times. Like they some times won't record a crime if they can't solve it.  Or simply due to the more draconian rules for punishment more people can be considered criminals then other countries would consider.  Case in point if you get drunk and end up mooning a school you can be arrested and charged and treated the same way as someone who actually molested a child. Or in Germany people that find themselves attracted to children can willingly come forth to receive the mental treatment they need without fear of repercussion.  In US if someone goes to a psychiatrist and admits they are sexually attracted to children. They are legally required to report them and the person even though they were trying to correct the issue now gets treated by the system as if they actually sexually molested a child. Put on a child sex offender website and over all life ruined even though they never acted on their impulse and actively want to get treatment because they realize their feelings are wrong.

 

So if you are equating US to more "freedom" based with more personal freedoms. There seems to be some contradictions in that.

 

Chaos and freedom are not mutual or interchangeable.  You can have control and chaos at the same time. And you can have freedom and order. The Country Georgia fired almost all of their police force. In 2005 the newly elected President fired 15,000 cops.  Even though they were severely limited on police man power. When freedom was the greatest order prevailed. Crime took a massive nose dive. When those police were in power despite Order being at it's highest the result was Chaos with rampant crime and corruption.

 

 

Your attempt to connect the two is well kind of childish to claim one is directly linked to the other.