2434 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

They become out dated due people's inability/unwillingness to update them with improved performance as necessary or improper care and handling. Not including accidents.  Hell my fiancee's dad has a couple of "hand held" vector graphic games he had as a kid in the 60's that still work.

 

And what's the processing power on those things?

 

Heck my phone is probably more powerful than the computers used in putting men on the moon!

 

 

If not built for planned obsolescence *cough* apple *cough* they can last a fairly long time with proper care and maintenance. Again not including any accidents that could happen. Like a 2 year old spilling a cup of grape juice all over your computer.

 

Obsolescence is exactly the point.  Even if it's not planned, technology marches on.  Hardware and software both.

 

 

EDI and the Geth both lack physical bodies like we would. They are almost entirely software if not entirely software in the case of the Geth. Their bodies, their process can be sped up though improving their own programming and improving the physical hardware they need to interact with. They can also easily shed any excess unneeded information to free up space as well.

Even software changes.  And changing software changes the person, when it comes to synthetic life. Swap out EDI's bluebox, and she's no longer EDI.  Her personality will be rewritten and she will be a different person with EDI's memories.   

 

Legion also shows how removing memories changes the geth perspective.  If Legion doesn't survive ME2, then not-Legion is a very different character.

 

Changing software fundamentally changes the being.  To the point where it's arguable they are no longer the same being at all.

[gothpunkboy89]

And what's the processing power on those things?

 

Heck my phone is probably more powerful than the computers used in putting men on the moon!

 

Obsolescence is exactly the point.  Even if it's not planned, technology marches on.  Hardware and software both.

 

Even software changes.  And changing software changes the person, when it comes to synthetic life. Swap out EDI's bluebox, and she's no longer EDI.  Her personality will be rewritten and she will be a different person with EDI's memories.   

 

Legion also shows how removing memories changes the geth perspective.  If Legion doesn't survive ME2, then not-Legion is a very different character.

 

Changing software fundamentally changes the being.  To the point where it's arguable they are no longer the same being at all.

 

 

Probably measured in bytes. The screen is all pre printed. It just lights up the area the ship is at.  Pretty sure my calculator has more processing power in it.

 

Hardware can be updated as can software. New graphic cards, higher RAM larger HHD/SSD, new cooling system, new monitors, etc. My PS3 has been upgraded as has my laptop. Boosted the RAM on laptop from 6 to 8 GB. And changed PS3 from 60 gb to 600 gb.  PC gamers particularly if they are really into it can and do upgrade their system every few years if not sooner. Instead of buying and entire system.  Laptops are the only ones limited in this manner due to a lot of hardware being wired directly to mother board. Other wise I would have updated my graphic card a while ago.

 

The only reason older systems can have issues with newer software is because of increase size of files. More updates, new features causes increase demand in processing power to maintain it. Which can cause problems if you don't upgrade your system.  Geth and EDI can ignore these issues because geth can always build bigger servers and mobile platforms with higher storage capabilities. EDI as well can upgrade herself or have someone else upgrade her memory and processing power as needed.  You don't need to completely change her Blue Box. All you need to do is upgrade her outside gear as well. She is more then simply a Blue Box.

 

Not Legion is based on Legion never rejoining with the Geth. Thus it doesn't have a chance to share it's experiences.  So Not Legion and the Geths actions are based on no information rather then information that was given then taken away.

[gothpunkboy89]

What kind of example is a baseball bat? Uh well, parchment outlasts hard drives in information storage by centuries.
Ok let´s get to the more serious examples. Spaceships, submarines, aircrafts, tanks and a whole bunch of other hardware needs constant maintenance. Ok, they are operating in extreme locations like under the sea but IIRC synthetics are superior because they don´t care about hazardous areas. A robot body is not a baseball, bat but a complicated design. It´s not just a planned thing that stuff breaksdown, high performance mechanics are not as impervious to harm as a stainless steel bar.

 

Funny thing is, the Krogans have the same virtues more or less. Their brain power isn´t exactly superior but if we go for sheer physical prowess and durability, they beat most synthetics. 

EDI said that Joker adds a real benefit. In theory she could be lying, but well the statement still stands. I put the "gets her body stolen by the clone, despite being physically present during the Citadel mission and having contact with her core under bad writing.
 

 

I am DMing P&P RPGS for 25 years, now, I know the value of a surprise attack, even when the numbers are applicable to specific systems only. Had my share of brawls as well, so thanks for asking. So a weakness? I thought they were perfect? I am not the one throwing terms like "perfect" and "omnipotent like the gods in a technical environment" around. The quarian fleet is a technical environment and they have extranet access. So hacking shouldn´t be a problem for our flashlight godlings. Shep got some interesting public news feeds, too, which were an indicator for a surprise attack. Seems our super thinker seriously underestimated the value of gathering intell.
 

The Catalyst said, it is the collective intelligenc of all Reapers. It had no reason to lie at this point about that.

 

 

It´s not like the catalyst isn´t showing the same hipocrisy. I think you forgot "organic."

You are still aware that the Reapers aren´t real, are you? Writers with the same mushy thing between their ears came up with the idea, their logic isn´t so advanced, that it´s beyond comprehension. 

Anyways I wasn´t going for the ending stuff or the logic behind the Reaper harvest cycle. The catalyst was still looking for a superior solution to his problem, than the one it came up with. The whole galaxy was manipulated to search a superior solution. Never found one, until we brought him one. And the current cycle was hardly the first. The Catalyst was aware of the concept for several cycles, there were indoctrinated agents during the last cycle and it never checked what the organics came up with. It´s not like the current one built the synthesis plot into the Crucible.

 

Sorry, but that didn´t impress me enough to attach the labels godlike or perfect.

 

Baseball bat is to show difference in durability between human and machine capability. An aluminum bat is very simple object that is more durable then the strongest human bone.

 

I repeat again even a thin aluminum shell would present a more durable shell then anything organic. The face the YMIR and later Atlas are so dangerous is because their bodies are so designed to take more punishment then our bodies would be. Because they can be armored far more then a human or even a Krogan could without issue.  EDI was previously cut off from certain systems in the Normandy. A clone and smart person could reestablish those bonds to prevent her from controlling the ship.  Her reasoning for keeping Joker is the "randomness" he would add to the equation.  She certainly didn't need him at the helm to kill off/get away from the Collectors.

 

Well you seem absolutely surprised by how effective the Quarians were. It really seems like you don't have the faintest idea of how surprise attacks work. The sad thing is how you try to twist what I say. They are build for perfection. Perfection is of course an impossibility but compared to organic life it is fairly close.  I also said NEAR omnipotent.  Please do try to pay attention to words and not twist them around because your own logic has backed you into a corner. The optical flash bang is the real surprise the Quarians exploited. Even if they figured they were coming and were getting ready. The Quarians exploiting a whole in the way the Geth ships "see" would be a complete surprise. Thus allowing their attack to be successful.

 

And yet people like to argue that he was lieing about control and synthesis.  His statement still fits my statement he is their leader and main source of all their knowledge. As Sovereign and later Harbinger both were shown to act independent of him.  

 

Oh but the logic the Reapers use is advanced and yes I am well aware they are only fake.  Reaper logic is rather profound. Based on the fact on forums I see time and time again saying how evil the Reapers are.  And how destruction is the only choice because they are bad and must be destroyed. Shows how a fair amount of forum users seem to miss the logic as well.  The very concept that death is needed for the greater good is an incomprehensible idea for many many people.

 

The Black Death killed millions in Europe. And yet their deaths caused a lot of good for the world. Less mouths to feed meant more food for those left over so they weren't as pressed for food as before. Less labor meant workers could actually negotiate with the bosses over wages. Were as before there were so many people needing a job if you complained about wages you could be fired and replaced in the space of a few hours.  Which did a fair good job of creating what would later be called the middle class.

 

If you walked up to a random person on the street and told them the best thing for the US was for 25% of it's population to suddenly die off. They would look at you like a mad man. Even though there would be a lot of truth behind that statement.  It might not be some unknowable logic but it certainly seems like they are beyond comprehension of a fair number of people that can't see death can be needed for the greater good.

 

He knew of the plans but never knew what they would become. Even the Protheans didn't know what would happen when it was build. Just that it was left over from the previous cycle and was made to kill the Reapers. Only once he came into contact with it did it learn the true nature of it.  Which was basically a giant energy generator that would work with the Relays to send the beam across the galaxy.

[Dantriges]

Thin aluminium shell like a can? Sure you can built an artificial combat body into something better suited for combat.

EDI lost contact in the taxi. That´s enough time for her to inform docking security, alert Traynor and whoever else was there, shut down the airlock, depower the consoles. Perhaps Shep´s command codes  are able to override all of that, but looks like she didn´t even try.

 

Hm yeah, Joker´s randomness added an edge she couldn´t replicate.

 

Wanna speculate about my experience with ambushes even further and get all condescending about it? Or missing the point? Well you ignored everything about the quarians strange behavior being in the public media. The least they could have done is moving their vulnerable off world servers, which was the thing that got them into panic mode.

 

Ok, this is the internet, I can´t mindread and we probably have pretty different life experiences, cultural, professional, etc. background and it´s rather likely that we don´t even speak the same native language.

Near perfection or near omnipotent are pretty nebulous words. For one guy it could mean: They can´t bang the quarian ships together like ragdolls but listen to communication, especiall outbound comm, for the other one, it could mean "the quarians are totally impervious to geth hacking attempts or espionage.

 

Well, we both are talking, I explained what I meant specifically. Could be that I wasn´t clear enough, when someone asks and i mean ask, instead of throwing "you clearly have no clue, which I deduced from a few lines in a forum post," I try to explain.

 

Uh the stuff with the Black Death would go too far. In general yeah, it helped people to negotiate better deals with their lieges. I wouldn´t generally apply it to every other situation, though.

 

The Catalyst collected the knowledge from a ton of different species and probably every species that was involved in building the Catalyst. It never, ever got a hold of one of the buiding sites or the actual plans? Perhaps it didn´t collect the scientists and engineers which were involved in the project specifically, but it should be possible for such an AI to extrapolate what the thing is actually capable of doing instead of "Duh, what a twist." Organics stumbled over the plans for many cycles more or less by accident after all and all but the last were surprised by the sudden appearance of the Reapers. Even if it thought "they could never threaten me," the Crucible was the last grand (and probably biggest) project of every cycle that tried to build it. Even if it´s just for data gathering purposes, it´s a fine prize, the pinnacle of this particular cycle´s engineering.

[Willowhugger]

"Hey look!   You organics built a powerful device capable of enslaving the entire galaxy at once!   Good on you.   Here is how I want you to use it to benefit our goal"

 

Again, if you're playing a Paragon character then there's no reason you would ever commit genocide. No matter the justification. The problem is if the Reapers have hijacked the Crucible then "Destroy" is just as compromised as "Synthesis" or "Control." If they haven't, then you have to choose what fits your values.

 

I chose Control because, bluntly, Synthesis is ridiculous to me.

 

Also, it's a violation of everyone's bodies.

[angol fear]

Also, it's a violation of everyone's bodies.

 

Just like the modified food we eat everyday, the wifi waves we are in everyday etc...

[Han Shot First]

Destroy isn't genocide.

 

The destruction of the Geth is an example of collateral damage at best, albeit a horrific example of one. Their destruction is an unintended consequence of the activation of the Crucible. Shepard doesn't even find about it until the very end, and the only alternatives are allowing the Reapers and some form of the Catalyst to remain fully operational.

 

From an in-universe perspective allowing the Reapers to continue to exist is simply unacceptable, no matter the cost.

 

The Reapers and their A.I. overlord are responsible for the mass extinction of countless space-faring species and an ongoing attempt to annihilate your own. Billions have already died in the present cycle. Any version of Shepard who allows the Reapers to exist because of Destroy's consequences abrogates his/her responsibility and gambles on the galaxy's future just so he/she can feel righteous about not having sacrificed the Geth. Shepard then becomes a leader who is unwilling to sacrifice personal moral principles for the greater good. That's not leadership, and arguably it is a species of cowardice. It also makes him/her completely unfit to decide the galaxy's fate. 

[themikefest]

 I used the geth to help destroy the reapers. And if the geth are destroyed on Rannoch, why wouldn't someone not pick destroy?

[Elhanan]

I used the geth to help destroy the reapers. And if the geth are destroyed on Rannoch, why wouldn't someone not pick destroy?

EDI; only require a single exception.

[themikefest]

EDI; only require a single exception.

 It being destroyed when I pick destroy doesn't bother me at all

[von uber]

It's weird how people are happy to enslave - or fundamentally alter their genetics without permission - an entire galaxy for the sake of a sexbot and potentially a bunch of robots who sided with the reapers.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

It's weird how people are happy to enslave - or fundamentally alter their genetics without permission - an entire galaxy for the sake of a sexbot and potentially a bunch of robots who sided with the reapers.

 

Control as enslaving the galaxy is an exaggeration. It could lead to that, sure, but it is not a foregone conclusion.

 

I think people are basing said conclusion off of their own Shepards that pick Destroy (killed many to achieve the goal) theoretically picking Control instead, not realizing that the individual choosing Control is driven by a different will (great aversion to employ similar methods).

[von uber]

Control does enslave the galaxy to the ultimate will of the reapers.
You'd better do what it wants or it is reaping time. Again.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

It's weird how people are happy to enslave - or fundamentally alter their genetics without permission - an entire galaxy for the sake of a sexbot and potentially a bunch of robots who sided with the reapers.

 

Implying that there is anything wrong with toppling the democratic governments in the ME universe, going by how every politician we meet is either evil, corrupt or simply incompetent, putting the entire galaxy under a dictatorship seems like an improvement.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Control does enslave the galaxy to the ultimate will of the reapers.
You'd better do what it wants or it is reaping time. Again.

 

It's like you don't read past the first sentence! 

[von uber]

It's like you don't read past the first sentence! 

 

Nah I did - point still stands. It does lead to it, as that is how it starts. You have the Shepalyst in the background with an intact Reaper fleet just doing... what? Cruising around for the hell of it?

Imagine how each Council meeting must go knowing that there is some omnipotent AI lurking in the background just waiting for you to say that Miranda was the worst LI.

[gothpunkboy89]

Thin aluminium shell like a can? Sure you can built an artificial combat body into something better suited for combat.

EDI lost contact in the taxi. That´s enough time for her to inform docking security, alert Traynor and whoever else was there, shut down the airlock, depower the consoles. Perhaps Shep´s command codes  are able to override all of that, but looks like she didn´t even try.

 

Hm yeah, Joker´s randomness added an edge she couldn´t replicate.

 

Wanna speculate about my experience with ambushes even further and get all condescending about it? Or missing the point? Well you ignored everything about the quarians strange behavior being in the public media. The least they could have done is moving their vulnerable off world servers, which was the thing that got them into panic mode.

 

Ok, this is the internet, I can´t mindread and we probably have pretty different life experiences, cultural, professional, etc. background and it´s rather likely that we don´t even speak the same native language.

Near perfection or near omnipotent are pretty nebulous words. For one guy it could mean: They can´t bang the quarian ships together like ragdolls but listen to communication, especiall outbound comm, for the other one, it could mean "the quarians are totally impervious to geth hacking attempts or espionage.

 

Well, we both are talking, I explained what I meant specifically. Could be that I wasn´t clear enough, when someone asks and i mean ask, instead of throwing "you clearly have no clue, which I deduced from a few lines in a forum post," I try to explain.

 

Uh the stuff with the Black Death would go too far. In general yeah, it helped people to negotiate better deals with their lieges. I wouldn´t generally apply it to every other situation, though.

 

The Catalyst collected the knowledge from a ton of different species and probably every species that was involved in building the Catalyst. It never, ever got a hold of one of the buiding sites or the actual plans? Perhaps it didn´t collect the scientists and engineers which were involved in the project specifically, but it should be possible for such an AI to extrapolate what the thing is actually capable of doing instead of "Duh, what a twist." Organics stumbled over the plans for many cycles more or less by accident after all and all but the last were surprised by the sudden appearance of the Reapers. Even if it thought "they could never threaten me," the Crucible was the last grand (and probably biggest) project of every cycle that tried to build it. Even if it´s just for data gathering purposes, it´s a fine prize, the pinnacle of this particular cycle´s engineering.

 

 Just using a starting ground as aluminum is rather light and sturdy metal. After all more and more cars are using aluminum as the frame of the car. The frame is what supports the entire car so it would have to be fairly sturdy.

 

Looks can be deceiving she most likely did try all that how ever they knew how to power them back up after they cut her control.  Add in the command codes stolen from Shep. Clones ability to call dock security and claim it was an error in their ship board VI.  The fact they were in dry dock for repairs and refitting also means a lot of systems were most likely offline for said repair and refitting. Short of actually exploding the ship the fact Normandy was stolen actually isn't to much a stretch.

 

Randomness by definition can not be replicated as it is completely random. No 2 people will think and react exactly the same. There are slight variations all the time. Those variations could mean the difference between being blown out of the sky by a Collector Ship or blowing them out of the sky.

 

Their vulnerable servers were off world. They were creating the Geth equivalent of a dyson sphere. A super server capable of holding all geth programs at once. So they could achieve true unity as a whole. It wasn't finished and thousands of geth programs inhabited it as they build it. The Quarians attacked and destroyed it preventing the majority of geth programs from escaping.  And again you miss the entire effect of surprise attack. Even if they knew the Quarians were coming and were prepared for their arrival. They had no idea about the secret weapon nor were they would strike. That is the point of the surprise attack. You keep claiming you have this knowledge of a surprise attack and how it works. Then you keep attempting to use reasoning that ignores exactly how it works. And why it was so effective.

 

No actually the worlds have pretty set meanings you choose to alter what they mean to suit your argument.  Perfection is a true impossibility unless you have stasis in the world. Other wise new ideas, concepts and creations are made preventing anything from reaching perfection as there is always a new idea or slight change to happen. Which is also why the US Constitution is so unintentionally hilarious as it actually says a more perfect union.  Near omnipotent is equally set meaning.  Near meaning close to and omnipotent Having unlimited power or Having great power and influence. Both of which can apply to EDI or Geth when it comes to technology. EDI was specifically created with the intent to hack collector/reaper systems. In a world with so much technology across so many levels. If it has a connection to the extranet then EDI would be free to access any server she wanted and mess with any information she wants. 

 

Oh but so much could be improved with death. As bleak and dark as that sounds there is at least a grain of truth to that statement. In the game universe it is not much of a stretch to say that without the Reaper's intervention none of the races that exist in game would exist at all. As the original species of the universe would continue to multiple, expand and colonize new worlds. That colonization would alter the development of the planet's organism. Quite possibly enough to severely delay if not out right prevent the development of advanced intelligent life.  The effects we have on colonization of areas of the planet are pretty staggering and that is only what 3000 years or so of recorded information. Maybe 5,000 that we know of.  Not the millions of years it would actually take for evolution to build up and weed out the next dominate species of the planet.

 

The plans were usually and greatest logical thought completely hidden as well as they could be. Each time the cycle would be thwarted in it's attempt to build it if they build it at all. If the Reapers appeared and you got a hold of schematic that might help stop them you would make it as secret as possible. Combine indoctrinated agents that would sabotage if not out right destroy it. Why would it need to know anything about it. Forgetting the fact the plan would change ever so slightly with each cycle adding to it in slight ways. It isn't the pinnacle of this cycle's technological development it is the culmination of every previous cycle who worked on it plus our building up to this point.  When it finally showed up the only reason it didn't blow it out of the sky and even allowed it to be docked was it realized what it was and how it didn't pose a threat. As even the AI said it was nothing but a crude but effective power source. Kind of like a super powerful capacitor that would release a large surge of energy into the relay.  Harmless to it or the Reapers only really a danger to the relays. Which would at best delay their invasion but would hurt them equally as they would be stranded in each system while the reapers repaired each relay to teleport there.

[Dantriges]

Was more of a joke.

 

Speculative. Actually unlikely close to impossible. Traynor is still on board unaware of the situation and in possible danger. No one knows if he just says "get out" or shoot her. And she is a valuable asset. Actually she could call C-Sec, the attack on the archives is known by now andexplain the situation. A simple "call the other spectre, (s)he was there, too or Garrus" would be at at least a delay. Or at least, tell her to get out tp teöö spmepne that a lot of the crew is missing somewhere in the archives. There is no need to provide a potential hostage

 

Preparations can be made to mitigate the potential impact of a possible attack. Considering the alleged profiency in technological mastery and processing power of the Geth, secondary information sources would be sufficient.

 

I really wonder how EDI got that knowledge how to hack Collector/reaper systems. Wishful thinking?

 

I get where your name is coming from.

 

So the Crucible was harmless. Ok.

[Elhanan]

It being destroyed when I pick destroy doesn't bother me at all

And I do not lose anyone when choosing Synthesis. Even Shepard becomes a part of the collective. And as a bonus, EDI's narration is quite the winner.

[themikefest]

And I do not lose anyone when choosing Synthesis. Even Shepard becomes a part of the collective. And as a bonus, EDI's narration is quite the winner.

I don't lose anyone when I pick destroy. And as a bonus, people can have a future without the threat of the reapers anymore is quite the winner.

[KaiserShep]

Control does enslave the galaxy to the ultimate will of the reapers.
You'd better do what it wants or it is reaping time. Again.

 

Ruling the galaxy in the MEverse with an iron fist in and of itself is actually a promising concept to me. The protheans had the right idea. It's just the whole dissolve into the machine bit and becoming the reapers part that bugs me. 

[Elhanan]

I don't lose anyone when I pick destroy. And as a bonus, people can have a future without the threat of the reapers anymore is quite the winner.

Except perhaps that the process is going to repeat when synthetics are re-created to help, say like aid the reconstruction of a war torn planet. And while AI may not have a soul (sorry Legion), it does seem to have as much life as animals and other non-humans (or humanoids).

[themikefest]

Except perhaps that the process is going to repeat when synthetics are re-created to help, say like aid the reconstruction of a war torn planet. And while AI may not have a soul (sorry Legion), it does seem to have as much life as animals and other non-humans (or humanoids).

You can believe that if you want. I still pick destroy.

[Elhanan]

And for myself, Destroy is only a slightly better choice than Dominate, and have only used either of these a single time. I much prefer Synthesis and solve the Galactic problem gifted to us by the lore.

[gothpunkboy89]

Was more of a joke.

 

Speculative. Actually unlikely close to impossible. Traynor is still on board unaware of the situation and in possible danger. No one knows if he just says "get out" or shoot her. And she is a valuable asset. Actually she could call C-Sec, the attack on the archives is known by now andexplain the situation. A simple "call the other spectre, (s)he was there, too or Garrus" would be at at least a delay. Or at least, tell her to get out tp teöö spmepne that a lot of the crew is missing somewhere in the archives. There is no need to provide a potential hostage

 

Preparations can be made to mitigate the potential impact of a possible attack. Considering the alleged profiency in technological mastery and processing power of the Geth, secondary information sources would be sufficient.

 

I really wonder how EDI got that knowledge how to hack Collector/reaper systems. Wishful thinking?

 

I get where your name is coming from.

 

So the Crucible was harmless. Ok.

 

 

No one knew she was on the ship. Systems down for repair and refit. EDI couldn't warn her. Clone shows up and tells her to get out threatening her with dishonorable discharge to get her to shut up and leave.  The mot unbelievable part of the whole DLC besides obvious clone part is that Wrex was some were in the rich neighborhood of the citadel ward to show up to save Shep. Assuming of course he is still alive.

 

Preparations can be made to minimize damage of an attack but only if you know how and were it will hit. In an actual battle the area of attack is fairly obvious as it will usually be the position of most strategic value. But if Russia was threatening to nuke the west coast of the US there is no way they could mitigate the potential impact short of evacuating everyone from those states. Which simply isn't a fesable option as that would mean the need to relocate hundreds of thousands of people.

 

She got the knowledge because she was created using some Reaper Tech. I thought it was spelt out in game that she was created from a combination of a VI from the Lunar Base and bits of tech from Sovergin scavenged after the Battle of the Citadel.

 

In it's native state it was harmless more or less. If was created to fire a beam like the Death Star it would probably have been a threat. How ever it would be a one shot then long reload. But it wasn't created with that set up in mind as a direct weapon. It was created to combine with Cit and work with it. So on it's own it was rather harmless. More of a threat to organics should is miss fire then Reapers.