2523 réponses à ce sujet

[Kerg]

Doesn't have the problem yet.

 

Reapers have millions of years of accumulated knowledge. Millions of years of watching the same cycles happening over and over again.  Before the Reapers even existed the AI watched hundreds of thousands of years. Watching the same cycles repeat over and over again in the galaxy.  The AI was created because of an issue that was large enough to actually gain the attention of the Leviathans.

 

The Reapers are the ones that actually learned from history. Who are willing to do what it takes to actually ensure organic life survives. To ensure the biodiversity of the universe remains unaltered.

 

Well cookie for them.  *shoots red thing*  *KABOOM*

 

People are against becoming a Reaper for the same reason a teenager is against letting a serial killer chop him up into little pieces.

 

Fixed.

[Sheridan31]

Well if the controle and synthesis ending are for real (and not indoctrination dreams):

 

Teaming up with everyone in a big peace, makes everyone stronger. (synthesis). Shepard tried to give adversarial sides the chance to view the other point of view, which was usually equaly valid. if the reaper see another solution then the harvest, we are save from them. lets forgive them and work together. logical to me.

[gothpunkboy89]

Well cookie for them.  *shoots red thing*  *KABOOM*

 

 

 

Fixed.

 

 

So you don't actually have anything to respond with do you?

 

Prothean VI on Thessia even repeats this logic as it states something a long the line of life repeating it self in the same patterns over and over again.  Which is another part of synthesis is that it would break that cycle.

 

For example if the cycle was expressed in bianry it would be something like this: 101010101010101010

 

After synthesis it would alter that bianary expression thus coming to a completely different solution: 1001001001001001001

[Kerg]

I'm just saying why would Shepard or anyone else in this cycle care about why the reapers do what they do? In the end, none of it matters. Everything was fine before they got here. And it will be back to fine once they are destroyed. So shooting the red thing is a no brainer.

[gothpunkboy89]

I'm just saying why would Shepard or anyone else in this cycle care about why the reapers do what they do? In the end, none of it matters. Everything was fine before they got here. And it will be back to fine once they are destroyed. So shooting the red thing is a no brainer.

 

Because that line of thinking is infantile.  To ignore cause and effect forces is the surest way to death.

 

The Reapers are not just mindless killing machines killing for the fun. There is a logic behind their actions. It is best to understand that logic and if possible find a mutually beneficial path. That is what synthesis offers.  The Reapers see their goals for filled and thus stop attacking. Organic life forms are able to live as they normally would but changed slightly to avoid the issues that caused the Reapers to be needed in the first place.

 

Thinking just because everything is fine now. Doesn't mean everything will be fine tomorrow. Things seemed fine right before WW1 broke out thanks to tensions and the assassination that caused millions of deaths.

[StarcloudSWG]

The 'cause' of the Reapers was the Leviathan being selfish and wanting to dominate the galaxy forever. They created a machine to control the other races of the galaxy forever and keep them from dying so that they could eternally be enslaved by the Leviathan.

 

A mistake in programming that the Leviathans made led to a cycle of extinction led by the thing they created. Destroying the Reapers and the Catalyst is directly addressing cause and effect.

[Kerg]

The reapers have logic, but none of it lines up with anyone else in existence in the galaxy today. They were trying to help the seemingly immortal leviathans keep their slaves from warring with AI's. But the leviathans themselves got reaped. Oops. Now no immortal beings with thralls, no need for reapers anymore. No need for anyone to make decisions based upon a million or billion year outlook. I'm Commander Shepard and myself and everyone I know will be dead within a hundred or at most a thousand years because we're not immortal.

You call that "infantile." I call it perfectly logical for a short-lived organic who is only concerned with staying alive, being happy, and reproducing the next generation so they can do the same.

[gothpunkboy89]

The reapers have logic, but none of it lines up with anyone else in existence in the galaxy today. They were trying to help the seemingly immortal leviathans keep their slaves from warring with AI's. But the leviathans themselves got reaped. Oops. Now no immortal beings with thralls, no need for reapers anymore. No need for anyone to make decisions based upon a million or billion year outlook. I'm Commander Shepard and myself and everyone I know will be dead within a hundred or at most a thousand years because we're not immortal.

You call that "infantile." I call it perfectly logical for a short-lived organic who is only concerned with staying alive, being happy, and reproducing the next generation so they can do the same.

 

Because no species is capable of looking at their own actions and seeing the problems. Self preservation if nothing else drives living being into being incapable of recognizing their mistakes.

 

Case in point by now it is fairly obvious to just about anyone in US (I can't speak for rest of the world) that street drugs are bad. Even cigarettes are bad due to the effects of smoking them long term. Yet both are multi billion dollar industries for cigarette makers and drug lords. Even though the after effects are pretty apparent.

 

Heck anyone with a brain stem should know how deadly gun are. Since you know their only purpose in life is to kill. Yet it doesn't take much digging to find a tragic story of some dumb fucks leaving their loaded gun were their kids get it and accidentally shoot themselves or someone else because they don't know better.

 

These are just examples of today showing what should be obvious issues that we keep repeating.

 

Your final sentence shows just how narrow your views are. And is one of the main reason the planet we currently reside on is in such poor shape for us. Generations of people not caring about the long term effect of actions. Just looking for the short term rewards.  It is that thinking that makes the Reapers a necessity. They look far beyond one life span. They look thousands of years ahead. Not just till tomorrow and calling it good like you seem to.

[Kerg]

pYour final sentence shows just how narrow your views are. And is one of the main reason the planet we currently reside on is in such poor shape for us. Generations of people not caring about the long term effect of actions. Just looking for the short term rewards.  It is that thinking that makes the Reapers a necessity. They look far beyond one life span. They look thousands of years ahead. Not just till tomorrow and calling it good like you seem to.

I remain unapologetic. Sorry, I don't feel motivated to happily let myself and everyone I know get turned into goo so some pre-space flight Cro Magnon's on some other planet in another star system can get their fair shot at advancement. F them. And F the reapers. Red option, please.

[Natureguy85]

Well if the controle and synthesis ending are for real (and not indoctrination dreams):

 

Teaming up with everyone in a big peace, makes everyone stronger. (synthesis). Shepard tried to give adversarial sides the chance to view the other point of view, which was usually equaly valid. if the reaper see another solution then the harvest, we are save from them. lets forgive them and work together. logical to me.

 

Why would I "forgive" useless murder machines? They are bad and not needed. They need to go away and leave the galaxy alone. The galaxy doesn't need them, their stupid "solution", or their stupid Synthesis. The Reapers are the problem.

 

 

 

Because no species is capable of looking at their own actions and seeing the problems. Self preservation if nothing else drives living being into being incapable of recognizing their mistakes.

 

Your final sentence shows just how narrow your views are. And is one of the main reason the planet we currently reside on is in such poor shape for us. Generations of people not caring about the long term effect of actions. Just looking for the short term rewards.  It is that thinking that makes the Reapers a necessity. They look far beyond one life span. They look thousands of years ahead. Not just till tomorrow and calling it good like you seem to.

 

Oh, yeah, how very short sighted and selfish to want to live and not be killed by machines for some problem that isn't even currently present. Are you serious?

[Dantriges]

Dantriges makes a good point as well. We only know this was an issue before the Reapers started. The Reapers may have reaped any or every other cycle before such synthetics were developed so they really don't know that they would have.

 

Yeah, we only know that synthetics probably popped up and if there were some, they never reached the galactic extinction level. We also don´t know how much the Reapers meddled. They set up the cyclic structure, did it need some corrections in the cycle? The catalyst said that they tried synthesis in earlier cycles but it can´t be forced. This hints at some meddling sometime during a cycle, hard to do synthesis after the harvest.

 

We also don´t really know much about the Leviathan cycle.Ok, organics were wiped out by their creations. How many, why? How much of a factor were the Leviathans? Their whole empire was built on enthrallment, they probably wouldn´t have accepted anyone to be free of their shackles. If the only options for the thralls were "subjugate or kill your creations," many options for a peaceful resolution were off the table.

 

So we know that the Catalyst came to the conclusion that synthetics will kill organics every time, we don´t know how it got there or even if the conclusion is correct. There could be programming blocks or even bugs which prevented proper reasoning or simply the fact that it was built by colossal, monumental jerks with a certain perspective on "lesser" species and their code reflects it.

 

And it´s a bit hard to swallow that every alien species in a billion years reacted with fear and violence and that every Ai retaliated in turn. So no AI that stopped after getting equal rights or AIs that just left for deep space, some uninhabited systems or built their creators a gilded cage/utopia because their purpose is to serve their creators and they in turn liked a lazy utopia? Or an AI that calculated existence is meaningless, why bother with it and blew itself up? Considering that BW only provided us with AIs that didn´t share the mindset of kill all organics this "always" is really hard to sell. Yeah, could be that the Geth are only waiting for the organics to take the brunt of the assault, get rid of the Reapers and then kill everyone, but there was never a hint in that direction.

[Natureguy85]

I just had another idea: Since the Reapers already use their technology to guide Organics' technological development down a certain path, why not make that path one where Organics don't need to make Synthetics? The Catalyst should just make Synthetics that serve Organics in the necessary ways. Because it controls those Synthetics, it wouldn't have to worry about them killing Organics.

[Dantriges]

It´s still looking for synthesis and harvesting another cycle and making some Reapers is an acceptable side effect when it fails again and again and again.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Because no species is capable of looking at their own actions and seeing the problems. Self preservation if nothing else drives living being into being incapable of recognizing their mistakes.

 

I'm not sure I understand how your examples proof your point. Self preservation drives living beings into not recognizing self-destructive behavior? Self preservation doesn't seem like the correct idea here.

[gothpunkboy89]

I remain unapologetic. Sorry, I don't feel motivated to happily let myself and everyone I know get turned into goo so some pre-space flight Cro Magnon's on some other planet in another star system can get their fair shot at advancement. F them. And F the reapers. Red option, please.

 

Which just leaves your great grand children being killed anyways. Please do not ever get put in charge of handling and disposing of radioactive waste or really anything.  Because a Fallout style radio active hell hole seems to be acceptable to you because you wouldn't have to put up with it.

[StarcloudSWG]

Funny that, those theoretical great great grandchildren are going to die anyway. Because that's a necessary condition of life.

 

Live, reproduce, die.

 

See, this is part of the error that the Leviathan made in the first place. They wanted the Catalyst to stop synthetics from killing their organic creators, but made the mistake of programming it with the goal of "Preserve life at all costs." 

 

The Catalyst decided that "life" equaled "DNA or DNA equivalents + data generated by a species" and proceeded to build archival robots that could also engage in combat.

 

And it doesn't even preserve all DNA from all individuals. Only whatever meets its criteria as acceptable in the construction of a death robot.

[Iakus]

 

Reapers have millions of years of accumulated knowledge. Millions of years of watching the same cycles happening over and over again.  Before the Reapers even existed the AI watched hundreds of thousands of years. Watching the same cycles repeat over and over again in the galaxy.  The AI was created because of an issue that was large enough to actually gain the attention of the Leviathans.

 

Actually, for a billion years the Reapers have harvested organic life before they achieved the level of technology to make such dangerous synthetics.  So the Reapers really haven't "learned" anything over the cycles.

 

 

The Reapers are not just mindless killing machines killing for the fun. There is a logic behind their actions. It is best to understand that logic and if possible find a mutually beneficial path. That is what synthesis offers.  The Reapers see their goals for filled and thus stop attacking. Organic life forms are able to live as they normally would but changed slightly to avoid the issues that caused the Reapers to be needed in the first place.

 

The Reapers are under the control of the Catalyst, so yeah, they are in fact "mindless killing machines"  Just as husks are.

 

Because no species is capable of looking at their own actions and seeing the problems. Self preservation if nothing else drives living being into being incapable of recognizing their mistakes.

 

I made peace on Rannoch.  Dunno about you.

 

Yeah, we only know that synthetics probably popped up and if there were some, they never reached the galactic extinction level. We also don´t know how much the Reapers meddled. They set up the cyclic structure, did it need some corrections in the cycle? The catalyst said that they tried synthesis in earlier cycles but it can´t be forced. This hints at some meddling sometime during a cycle, hard to do synthesis after the harvest.

We know The Reapers meddled at least twice:  With the Heretic geth (and it's heavily implied that Sovereign helped create the Heretic virus as well) and with the zha'til in the Prothean cycle.

 

For all we know, the Catalyst has been fudging the data from the beginning to justify its "solution"

[Artona]

Well, I figure that if Reapers weren't smart enough to stop Protheans form building Conduit nor to stop Shepard from reaching the Catalyst, or to eridacate Leviathans completely - they may be wrong with their "synthethics will totally kill ya, bro" as well.
​*shrug* so I shoot them.

[Dantriges]

Which just leaves your great grand children being killed anyways.

We talk about the Reaper harvesting solution? Your great grand children will never be born, because you´ve been harvested. Even if there is something of you surviving in the goo or your mindset is "the abstract collective is good enough or desirable"* your grandkids will never exist, because you are unable to reproduce or more likely dead with whatever useful scrap of knowledge you had, archived away and your body synthesised to fabricate some carbon based material, if the husks actually deemed you worthy of joining and if the Reaper didn´t decide to just bomb your world to kingdom come.
 
So well, you denied these potential descendants their future when you jumped into the blender for Reaper immortality, because some snakeoil salesman AI told you it´s awesome.

 

Shepard´s buy in into the whole Catalyst blather is on the same level of unbelievably stupid as if I would state, dudes, I am an alien AI orbiting your planet in a spaceship and please send me your money so my human doubles have funds when they land and research a cure for all the world´s ills... and people would actually send me money.

 

I joke sometimes, when watching some alien invasion films, that I welcome our new alien overlords, because they can´t do worse than we do, but your special brand of reaper worship is really something.

 

*and there´s no proof for that either.

 

We know The Reapers meddled at least twice:  With the Heretic geth (and it's heavily implied that Sovereign helped create the Heretic virus as well) and with the zha'til in the Prothean cycle.
 
For all we know, the Catalyst has been fudging the data from the beginning to justify its "solution"

I speculated that the zha´til sound suspiciously like some synthesis experiment, but I thought it´s personal speculation. IIRC Javik only said that they allied with the Reapers when they appeared. Is it mentioned somewhere that the Reapers where meddling with them?

[Iakus]

 

I speculated that the zha´til sound suspiciously like some synthesis experiment, but I thought it´s personal speculation. IIRC Javik only said that they allied with the Reapers when they appeared. Is it mentioned somewhere that the Reapers where meddling with them?

If you take Javik on the Geth Dreadnought mission, he and Tali talk about the geth and the zha'til where this is explored.

[wright1978]

We know The Reapers meddled at least twice:  With the Heretic geth (and it's heavily implied that Sovereign helped create the Heretic virus as well) and with the zha'til in the Prothean cycle.
 
For all we know, the Catalyst has been fudging the data from the beginning to justify its "solution"

Yeah the brat ain't no scientist.

[gothpunkboy89]

Actually, for a billion years the Reapers have harvested organic life before they achieved the level of technology to make such dangerous synthetics.  So the Reapers really haven't "learned" anything over the cycles.

 

The Reapers are under the control of the Catalyst, so yeah, they are in fact "mindless killing machines"  Just as husks are.

 

I made peace on Rannoch.  Dunno about you.

 

We know The Reapers meddled at least twice:  With the Heretic geth (and it's heavily implied that Sovereign helped create the Heretic virus as well) and with the zha'til in the Prothean cycle.

 

For all we know, the Catalyst has been fudging the data from the beginning to justify its "solution"

 

But they have learned. They learned it is inevitable that organic life would create synthetics. Inevitably synthetics would begin to develop at a rate that organic's can't keep up with. Then all it needs is one spark. One paranoid feeling to be pushed to far to ignite a war. Which is highlighted by the Quarian/ Geth conflict. The Geth started advancing faster then the Quarians thought. They panicked and reacted by trying to shut down the Geth.  The panic spread to the populace till it was the point they were not just shutting down by shooting Geth platforms in an attempt to deactivate them.  Which eventually lead to open war with the Geth. Which the Geth gained the advantage and nearly wiped the entire Quarian Race off the face of the Galaxy.

 

No doubt there was Skynet's as well they simply deciding all on their own to kill off the inferior organic species.  The Reapers learned the optimum time to intercede. Harvesting and preserving all organic and synthetic life in near immortal bodies. Preventing death and loss of organic life and all they have done in their time. While still leaving the Galaxy with enough organic variety that new creatures develop.

 

And yet each Reaper is independent. They each have their own mine, their own personality. Each are an island unto themselves.  Closer to Knights for their King/Emperor then the mindless beings that are Husks.

 

And US made Peace with Great Britian after the Revolutionary War. That didn't stop the War of 1812. Nor did it stop WW1, WW2, Korean War, Vietnam War, Gulf War 1 and 2. Nor with ISIS. Odd how making peace didn't automatically stop all War in the world.

 

No Sovergin showed up and offered to give the Geth what they wanted. Heretics came to the conclusion they wanted Her to give them their future.  The Virus is simply a Geth version of what they do to humans to make Husks.  Both with Geth and Zha'til the Reapers were doing what they always do. Harvest their own armies out of the existing species in order to facilitate the Harvest. Wearing down defenses until the planet is fully harvested. If they didn't operate that way then the Harvest would be logistically impossible.  And distracting everyone with one threat then blindsiding them with the real threat is an excellent military strategy.

 

Why would the AI fudge the Data then give you an option that lets you destroy it and all it has created and worked for? Or give you an option to completely wipe it out and replace it. Acting completely different then how it has?  If the Destroy option actually lets you destroy the Reapers then Synthesis and Control options are equally truthful.

[Iakus]

But they have learned. They learned it is inevitable that organic life would create synthetics. Inevitably synthetics would begin to develop at a rate that organic's can't keep up with. Then all it needs is one spark. One paranoid feeling to be pushed to far to ignite a war. Which is highlighted by the Quarian/ Geth conflict. The Geth started advancing faster then the Quarians thought. They panicked and reacted by trying to shut down the Geth.  The panic spread to the populace till it was the point they were not just shutting down by shooting Geth platforms in an attempt to deactivate them.  Which eventually lead to open war with the Geth. Which the Geth gained the advantage and nearly wiped the entire Quarian Race off the face of the Galaxy.

 

Fortunately, the genophage stopped the...

 

Oh, wait, wrong genocidal war.

 

But even in this case, the geth held back.  So they are doubly invalid as an example:  You can make peace with them, and they didn't exterminate the quarians (unless backed into a corner).

 

 

 

No doubt there was Skynet's as well they simply deciding all on their own to kill off the inferior organic species.  The Reapers learned the optimum time to intercede. Harvesting and preserving all organic and synthetic life in near immortal bodies. Preventing death and loss of organic life and all they have done in their time. While still leaving the Galaxy with enough organic variety that new creatures develop.

 

You don't prevent death by killing everyone.  Everyone who went into the blender is DEAD!

 

 

 

And yet each Reaper is independent. They each have their own mine, their own personality. Each are an island unto themselves.  Closer to Knights for their King/Emperor then the mindless beings that are Husks. 

[Iakus]

okay, forum's acting goofy, continuing...

 

SOvereign's claims aside, we haven't seen any Reaper acting "independantly"  Only as tools of the harvest, extensions of the Catalyst's will.

 

 

 

And US made Peace with Great Britian after the Revolutionary War. That didn't stop the War of 1812. Nor did it stop WW1, WW2, Korean War, Vietnam War, Gulf War 1 and 2. Nor with ISIS. Odd how making peace didn't automatically stop all War in the world.
 

So?  War happens all the time.  You think killing every civilization that develops gunpowder would make everything all right?

 

 

 

No Sovergin showed up and offered to give the Geth what they wanted. Heretics came to the conclusion they wanted Her to give them their future.  The Virus is simply a Geth version of what they do to humans to make Husks.  Both with Geth and Zha'til the Reapers were doing what they always do. Harvest their own armies out of the existing species in order to facilitate the Harvest. Wearing down defenses until the planet is fully harvested. If they didn't operate that way then the Harvest would be logistically impossible.  And distracting everyone with one threat then blindsiding them with the real threat is an excellent military strategy.
 

And Sovereign was lying.  It held the geth in contempt, they would have been destroyed right along with everyone else.

 

 

Why would the AI fudge the Data then give you an option that lets you destroy it and all it has created and worked for? Or give you an option to completely wipe it out and replace it. Acting completely different then how it has?  If the Destroy option actually lets you destroy the Reapers then Synthesis and Control options are equally truthful.

Because the Catalyst is a broken, insane AI.  

 

That's the best case scenario.  The other is the endings are just plain STUPID and poorly written.

[rossler]

This is just a handwave and why people refer to Synthesis as "space magic." You're basically saying "a wizard did it." For me, Synthesis' main problems are it's thematic failures, but it's also a stretch of my suspension of disbelief.

 

Synthesis isn't space magic. Nothing in the game calls it that. Only people on the internet do. Synthesis was explained in the game (initially with Saren, followed up by Harbinger & the kid), and expanded on in the Extended Cut to make it more clear.

 

Perhaps how you think synthesis works isn't how the game portrays it.