2561 réponses à ce sujet

[gothpunkboy89]

You continue to contradict yourself or change your argument time and time again to support your claim. It is starting to reach a point of being both funny and sad.

 

Reason Alliance never goes to war with the Batarians over slave raids is because they would be sending millions to their death to save thousands. Which while you don't have to like you have to agree the reward would be far less then the price it would take to achive that. AI Shep wouldn't have that issue. It would cost him nothing while the humans gain from it.  Like wise if under Wrev Krogan attempted to take revenge on Turian AI Shep could step in and put the Krogan's down again. Reducing the loss of life while the Turians would gain from it.

 

I don't think you understand. First Degree Murder is a modern legal definition of killing someone with malice and premeditation. We have no idea if other space-faring creatures have this same concept of the law as we do. So no, you can't just slap down something from state or federal law and declare that it's the same thing everywhere.

 

 

 

What your reply. So you are directly stating we can't apply the same rules and laws we have to different species because they could have different concepts and laws. There fore AI shep couldn't act as law enforcement of that galaxy because again different species might have different ideas and concepts of what constitutes bad behaviors. 

 

Which is you in your attempt to make a claim to support your view are indirectly stating that the Krogan getting revenge on the Turians by killing as many as they can is perfectly acceptable. Because by Krogan social standards their actions are completely justified. And AI Shep shouldn't step in because it would be forcing another idea of laws on them that isn't their own.

 

You have been watching far to many CSI shows. Police are very restricted in what they can and can't do.  Ever notice how it is strange in ME2 C Sec can't seem to touch Elias for anything. Yet all Shep has to do is threaten that he is a Specter and not only does he start talking. But even his lawyer admits there is nothing they can do.  Specters are everything you complain about AI Shep being only instead of 1 person they are controlled by 3, 4 after events of ME1.

[rossler]

Well, no it's not. It's explained almost exactly as you said. You jump into a green beam and suddenly your DNA and consciousness turn into some kind of energy that violates pretty much all laws of physics and biology and makes everyone and everything the same. And you can always take the fallback position of saying that any sufficiently advanced technology will be indistinguishable from magic, but that's the problem. I mean, this is a story that's gone to great lengths to explain how the genophage works and how the cure works, and even if you have to stretch it it's based in science. But then in the end game you're supposed to buy into what a kid tells you about this strange room and these three options you have. 

 

It's really not a good ending and it's not sufficiently explained, but at the same time I don't care. It's a great series so I'm fine hand-waving the end.

 

Like I said somewhere, the Crucible plans have been worked on over the course of tens of millions of years. So something that advanced, is like trying to explain to a primitive creature how a modern computer works. His head would explode, because he wouldn't be able to comprehend it. That's how the Reapers view organics as--primitive, vermin, bacteria, etc. The most basic forms of life in the galaxy, while they are vastly superior. They kept going on about how superior they were and how organics can't understand their motives and how it all works.

 

Yet, you want them to take some technology which was designed almost tens of millions of years ago, and explain how it all works to a modern organic life form with intricate detail. I don't see how that would be possible.

 

I mean you say that a beam of light can't change everyone's DNA. Well maybe not with our current technology, but with some super advanced tech, it might be possible.

 

I mean, back four hundred years ago it wasn't possible to use lasers to remove hair from one's skin like we have today. They would call that high tech sorcery and have someone burned at the stake for suggesting such a thing was possible. Back in the day they wouldn't even take a guess in how that would work either.

 

They can only give you information that was found in those blueprints. So what was said at the end is all you have to work with. You can't have the full explanation on how synthesis works, because it wasn't included in the blueprints.

 

The genophage isn't that radically advanced as the Crucible is. Which is why it's easier to explain how it works.

[Monica21]

You continue to contradict yourself or change your argument time and time again to support your claim. It is starting to reach a point of being both funny and sad.

I'm not changing my argument. You just continue to not understand my argument. Also, if we're going to start trading insults, your spelling is absolutely atrocious. I mean, just look at the red lines under the words you type for God's sake.
 

What your reply. So you are directly stating we can't apply the same rules and laws we have to different species because they could have different concepts and laws. There fore AI shep couldn't act as law enforcement of that galaxy because again different species might have different ideas and concepts of what constitutes bad behaviors.

Yes, actually. In the same way I can't apply U.S. law to Canadian law I can't possibly be so presumptuous as to assume that every other evolved and sentient species has the same rule of law that we do. What is murder? Is it first, second, or third degree? Is it manslaughter? Is it self-defense? Is it forgetting to feed your goldfish? Can you possibly believe that the Vorcha have the same concept of murder as humans?
 

Which is you in your attempt to make a claim to support your view are indirectly stating that the Krogan getting revenge on the Turians by killing as many as they can is perfectly acceptable. Because by Krogan social standards their actions are completely justified. And AI Shep shouldn't step in because it would be forcing another idea of laws on them that isn't their own.

What you're supposed to do is argue against my argument and not against an argument I didn't make. I'm not saying it's acceptable, I'm saying that one person can't decide what is and is not acceptable. And frankly, in most societies that is acceptable. The U.S. invaded Iraq after 9/11. Jordan launched air strikes against ISIS after the footage of their pilot being burned alive was released. France launched air strikes against ISIS after the Paris bombings. And we're talking about mostly isolated incidents here. We're not talking about deliberate and massive population control against an entire species.
 

You have been watching far to many CSI shows. Police are very restricted in what they can and can't do.  Ever notice how it is strange in ME2 C Sec can't seem to touch Elias for anything. Yet all Shep has to do is threaten that he is a Specter and not only does he start talking. But even his lawyer admits there is nothing they can do.  Specters are everything you complain about AI Shep being only instead of 1 person they are controlled by 3, 4 after events of ME1.

No, apparently I know what a no-knock warrant is and you don't. Police are restricted, but far less restricted than an ordinary citizen. I can't knock down my neighbor's door because that's breaking and entering. That's why I said any authority that the Spectres have is just an extension of what LE already has.

[Monica21]

Like I said somewhere, the Crucible plans have been worked on over the course of tens of millions of years. So something that advanced, is like trying to explain to a primitive creature how a modern computer works. His head would explode, because he wouldn't be able to comprehend it. That's how the Reapers view organics as--primitive, vermin, bacteria, etc. The most basic forms of life in the galaxy, while they are vastly superior.
 
You want them to take some technology which was designed almost tens of millions of years ago, and explain how it all works to a modern organic life form with intricate detail. I don't see how that would be possible.
 
The genophage isn't that radically advanced as the Crucible is. Which is why it's easier to explain how it works.

So what you're saying is that it's so advanced that it's indistinguishable from magic?

[rossler]

I'm not calling it magic, but it's advanced enough that most people can't comprehend it. That's just the way it was designed in the blueprints.

[Monica21]

I'm not calling it magic, but it's advanced enough that most people can't comprehend it. That's just the way it was designed in the blueprints.

Which is not anywhere close to "explaining it quite well." If it's incomprehensible then it's not explained.

[gothpunkboy89]

I'm not changing my argument. You just continue to not understand my argument. Also, if we're going to start trading insults, your spelling is absolutely atrocious. I mean, just look at the red lines under the words you type for God's sake.
 

Yes, actually. In the same way I can't apply U.S. law to Canadian law I can't possibly be so presumptuous as to assume that every other evolved and sentient species has the same rule of law that we do. What is murder? Is it first, second, or third degree? Is it manslaughter? Is it self-defense? Is it forgetting to feed your goldfish? Can you possibly believe that the Vorcha have the same concept of murder as humans?
 

What you're supposed to do is argue against my argument and not against an argument I didn't make. I'm not saying it's acceptable, I'm saying that one person can't decide what is and is not acceptable. And frankly, in most societies that is acceptable. The U.S. invaded Iraq after 9/11. Jordan launched air strikes against ISIS after the footage of their pilot being burned alive was released. France launched air strikes against ISIS after the Paris bombings. And we're talking about mostly isolated incidents here. We're not talking about deliberate and massive population control against an entire species.
 

No, apparently I know what a no-knock warrant is and you don't. Police are restricted, but far less restricted than an ordinary citizen. I can't knock down my neighbor's door because that's breaking and entering. That's why I said any authority that the Spectres have is just an extension of what LE already has.

 

Yes you are. Several times in fact stating contradictory information.

 

You say we can't apply a single term because different species would have different views of law.

 

I point out according to the Krogan Wrev wanting to gain revenge by killing ideally every Turian is perfectly acceptable by Krogan standards. Seeing as in ME2 regardless of Wrex or Wrev is the leader after Mordin's loyalty mission their allies wipe out the Clan Weyrloc. Saving women and children if Wrex is leader.  In fact with Wrex he mentions how several clans have been wiped out by not agreeing or following his terms.

 

Which would mean if Wrev wanted to kill all Turians no one should intervene and it should just be those two species fighting it out with no help from anyone else.  Beause other wise it would be enforcing other ideas of law and justice on the Krogan for their actions.

 

This is by your logic you see. That is why I specifically said if Krogan wants to kill other Krogans that is fine. If Krogan want to kill Turians that is when AI Shep would step in and stop the fighting. Putting down the Krogan completely if necessary.

 

Do you not see the inherent contradiction of your statements?

 

Spectres are agents from the Office of Special Tactics and Reconnaissance and answer only to the Citadel Council. They are elite military operatives, granted the authority to deal with threats to peace and stability in whatever way they deem necessary.

They operate independently or in groups of two or three. Some are empathetic peacekeepers, resolving disputes through diplomacy. Others are cold-blooded assassins, ruthlessly dispatching problem individuals. All get the job done, one way or another, often operating outside of the bounds of galactic law.

The Spectres were founded after the salarians joined the Council. For many years, they operated in secrecy, as back-room "problem solvers". Only after the Krogan Rebellions did their activities become publicized. Assignment of a Spectre is less contentious than military deployment, but makes it clear that the Council is concerned about a situation.

 

Direct quote from the Codex involving Specters. Notice the operating outside the bounds of galactic law bit. Much like how AI Shep would act.

[rossler]

People were fine with the Reaper motives being incomprehensible, when you first met Sovereign. Why does the Crucible and how it functions need to be meticulously explained?

 

Isn't that kind of contradictory? People preferred the Reaper motives left unexplained. While they want some elaborate explanation from their creator on how the Crucible and its functions work. They tell you enough for you to know what's going to happen.

 

At least he describes to you how control, synthesis, and destroy will work and the affect it will have on the galaxy. It was elaborated on in the Extended Cut.

 

He doesn't go on for 30 minutes on how synthesis and everything else works though. There's such a thing as providing the player too much information.

[Monica21]

Yes you are. Several times in fact stating contradictory information.
 
You say we can't apply a single term because different species would have different views of law.
 
I point out according to the Krogan Wrev wanting to gain revenge by killing ideally every Turian is perfectly acceptable by Krogan standards. Seeing as in ME2 regardless of Wrex or Wrev is the leader after Mordin's loyalty mission their allies wipe out the Clan Weyrloc. Saving women and children if Wrex is leader.  In fact with Wrex he mentions how several clans have been wiped out by not agreeing or following his terms.
 
Which would mean if Wrev wanted to kill all Turians no one should intervene and it should just be those two species fighting it out with no help from anyone else.  Beause other wise it would be enforcing other ideas of law and justice on the Krogan for their actions.
 
This is by your logic you see. That is why I specifically said if Krogan wants to kill other Krogans that is fine. If Krogan want to kill Turians that is when AI Shep would step in and stop the fighting. Putting down the Krogan completely if necessary.
 
Do you not see the inherent contradiction of your statements?

That... is not at all what I said. Saying the same thing in different ways to try and help you understand is not contradicting myself. You're not even trying. Or worse, you are trying and failing miserably. And "killing ideally every Turian" is not the most well-constructed sentence which makes your replies difficult to read. So, since you're just becoming annoying and I'm tired of repeating myself (I mean, I've said the same thing like four or five times), I'm going to go away now. I want to eat dinner and watch X Files, but mostly I just want this argument to end, so you can respond to this and get the last word.

But I'm still right.

[Monica21]

People were fine with the Reaper motives being incomprehensible, when you first met Sovereign. Why does the Crucible and how it functions need to be meticulously explained?

 

Isn't that kind of contradictory? People preferred the Reaper motives left unexplained. While they want some elaborate explanation from their creator on how the Crucible and its functions work.

 

At least he describes to you how control, synthesis, and destroy will work and the affect it will have on the galaxy, other than, "it just works".

 

He doesn't blab on for 30 minutes on how synthesis works though. There's such a thing as providing the player too much information. I feel they provided enough for me to understand what was going on.

 

None of this is what you said. You said, "It was explained quite well." Pick one. He did not describe how Synthesis works. He said that your DNA gets mixed into the green beam and it changes the DNA of all life and all synthetics in the galaxy. That's a description of what happens, not how it works.

[rossler]

That's all the information the game gives you.

[Monica21]

That's all the information the game gives you.

That is true.

[ImaginaryMatter]

People were fine with the Reaper motives being incomprehensible, when you first met Sovereign. Why does the Crucible and how it functions need to be meticulously explained?

 

Isn't that kind of contradictory? People preferred the Reaper motives left unexplained. While they want some elaborate explanation from their creator on how the Crucible and its functions work. They tell you enough for you to know what's going to happen.

 

At least he describes to you how control, synthesis, and destroy will work and the affect it will have on the galaxy. It was elaborated on in the Extended Cut.

 

He doesn't go on for 30 minutes on how synthesis and everything else works though. There's such a thing as providing the player too much information.

 

Those are two different situations. One is the introduction to the overarching antagonist, the other is the end of a trilogy.

 

Also, people aren't asking for meticulous details, they're asking for coherent ideas. The Synthesis explanation isn't that. That's why you have has many Synthesis explanations as players. There's so many contradictions most player's don't know where to begin making sense of it. And you need a sensible core to make this thing work. Player's aren't being asked to choose a new hair color for Shepard, they're being asked to make an irreparable, galaxy wide change that is epic in magnitude as it makes some fundamental change to something dealing with DNA(?). The basis to synthesis is so ill-thought out the 'elaboration' provided by the EC is the incredibly, poorly thought out explanations for how Synthetics and Organics seek 'perfection'.

[rossler]

Well you'll get coherent ideas when people stop calling synthesis space magic and such. I'm inclined to believe that the game's writing isn't the problem here. 

[gothpunkboy89]

That... is not at all what I said. Saying the same thing in different ways to try and help you understand is not contradicting myself. You're not even trying. Or worse, you are trying and failing miserably. And "killing ideally every Turian" is not the most well-constructed sentence which makes your replies difficult to read. So, since you're just becoming annoying and I'm tired of repeating myself (I mean, I've said the same thing like four or five times), I'm going to go away now. I want to eat dinner and watch X Files, but mostly I just want this argument to end, so you can respond to this and get the last word.

But I'm still right.

But it is.

 

Batarians accept slavery as part of their social structure so they see nothing wrong with it. Humans how ever do not support slavery in their social stricter anymore. Neither do Asari, Turian or Salarian. The only species that accepts slavery is the Batarians.

 

So by your logic how would or how should the galactic community respond to the slave raids Batarians make on outer territory colonies?  Taking into account their social structure?

 

Krogan's social structure and laws are all about survival of the strongest. The strongest lead and the weak die off or are killed.  They are willing and able to kill someone if they are crossed and no one bats an eye as it is expected.  The Genophage released by the Turians  effected the entire population of Krogan. By Krogan social structure and laws their revenge and what could be considered genoicde of the Turians is justified and well within their laws and customs.

 

So by your logic how would or how should the galactic community respond to Wrev leading the Krogans in a war against the Turians and possible Asari and Salarians as well?

 

How would these actions be different from how either Ren or Para Control Shep would act in your mind?

 

Specters have more power then normal police do. Executor Pallin directly states he mistrusts Specters because they are above the law.  They are closer to black ops cells then police officer. And just like Black Op cells they are given free reign to do what they want. Controlled by only a few people.  So how is this existing system any different then with AI Shep?

[ImaginaryMatter]

Well you'll get coherent ideas when people stop calling synthesis space magic and such. I'm inclined to believe that the game's writing isn't the problem here. 

 

Synthesis tries to cram in a complicated concept in the length of about half a dozen lines in the original ending. Considering that the EC drops gems like 'synthetic technology' I'm not even sure the writer knew what he was saying in the first place. The moniker space magic seems well deserved.

 

Stringing together loaded words isn't sophisticated writing. Notice how the Catalyst can't even keep core ideas in the ending like 'chaos' and 'synthetic' straight. It's sophomoric. The quality is most certainly center to peoples' problems.

[Natureguy85]

Get ready for the "I've been gone awhile" bomb.

 

 

Synthesis isn't space magic. Nothing in the game calls it that. Only people on the internet do. Synthesis was explained in the game (initially with Saren, followed up by Harbinger & the kid), and expanded on in the Extended Cut to make it more clear.

 

Perhaps how you think synthesis works isn't how the game portrays it.

 

So what if nothing in the game calls it that? That would be really strange. Yes, it came from people online and it's an appropriate description. Synthesis was explained very vaguely but the idea is ridiculous. Other things were certainly fantastical, but a lot was believable once you accepted the premise of Eezo and the Mass Effect itself. Synthesis isn't like that at all. I think it works exactly as the game portrays it.

 

Most importantly, as someone else pointed out, Saren was talking about simple cybernetics. He wasn't talking about whatever the hell this is. Also, recall that Saren was Indoctrinated and was the voice of Sovereign at that point.

 

 

Yea the Genophage pretty effectively shows Organics tend towards War with being they don't like.  The key reason the Batarian and Humans never go into war is because the Council wouldn't like it. And neither side, particularly Batarians could withstand the full brunt of the entire Citadel Fleet. The Krogan only highlight this issue is not limited to just O vs S.

 

So if the issue is not limited to just O vs S, the why is O vs S so special and important that it is what requires Reaper intervention?

 

 

 

 

They held back only at the end. And what did that action result in? The Quarians coming back around for another attack. With the intent to fight to the death over the planet. Throwing ever man, woman and child into harms way in an attempt to kill off. Or capture them and give them an AI version of a  lobotomy turning them back into mindless VI programs.

 

So? The Catalyst's premise is that the Created always destroy the Creators. The Geth did not do so, therefore, the Catalyst is wrong. Only one counterexample is needed to break an "always" premise.

 

 

 

 

Death dose prevent death. If it didn't then every war we have ever waged on this planet was utterly and completely pointless and anyone who participated in it should be thrown in jail and have the key tossed away.  The harvesting of the Protheans and their servants lead to the rise of the in game Cycle species. Who wouldn't exist if the species before the Protheans were harvested.  Sacrifice billions so Quadrillions can live.  It is why (supposedly) the UK government in WW2 allowed the Germans to bomb Coventry. To keep them from realizing they had broken their code in preparation for D Day.  Knowing those codes was a massive advantage. To alert the Germans to it before D Day would result in them changing the code and losing that advantage of spying on their communications.  They let thousands die so millions more wouldn't.

 

He said killing everyone doesn't prevent death. I suppose it prevents future death since nobody will be born to die. We're talking about genocide here, not a simple war. Your comparison is way off. Also, as someone else pointed out, you're not only sacrificing millions, you're also sacrificing all of their would be progeny. Who decides that the races that will ascend after each Harvest are more valuable than those who were Harvested?

 

Again, your analogy is way off. They sacrificed one current group to save a larger current group. They didn't sacrifice lives now for some at an indeterminate point in the future. They also didn't claim to be saving or ascending the people who died.

 

 

 

So at first you claim making peace with Geth means no war with synthetics. Thus showing the Reaper's logic as flawed. Yet I have shown you our own history that shows just because you make peace with one set up won't prevent all war. Singling out the Geth as the beginning and end of all Synthetic life is like saying Donald Trump is the beginning and end of all humans.

 

Sure, war might come, and it probably will at some point. How is that a justification for genocide? Also the reason for the Reapers is that Synthetics will supposedly wipe out all Organics and that the creations always rebel.

 

The Geth are the example of Synthetic life in the current cycle and are the primary thing we have to go on. They are certainly more legitimate than the Catalyst's unverifiable claims.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes Sovergin was lying. But the option it presented the Geth were to good for some to pass up as they saw it as the culmination of everything they wanted. Why take though force what you can take though guile? Particularly when it serves your needs? Had Sovereign's plans worked it would have summoned the other Reapers and would have struck a blow at the heart of the Galaxy's population. This was literally a no lose situation for Sovergin. Until Shep stepped in anyways.

 

Yeah, Legion who said the Geth want their own future took the Reaper upgrades.

 

 

 

Liking the logic and acknowledging it are not the same thing.

 

But we can question if it is logical.

[Dantriges]

We are comparing human/turian/salarian/asari spectres beholden to the council with a frigate and some henchmen at best with an AI sitting in an inpenetrable fortress, commanding the most powerful fleet and army of the galaxy? That´s not even close to being in the same league.

 

 

 

Can I note the irony of the same people who reject the Catalyst's stance and see it as (it is not actually) wrongfully villifying synthetics largely also being scared ****less of Control ending, convinced that those synthetics are necessarily going to be malicious?

 

We had emperors, kings, warlords, godkings, dictators and whatever else in the single ruler department and quite a lot of them, who disposed of any kind of check on their power went totally bonkers. And a lot of them made grand speeches how they will lead  their subjects into a golden age.

 

Combine that with Shepard loading himself up into the hardware the Catalyst used to occupy and talking about having become something greater through the death of Shepard , there is power in control and the whole I will , I will, I will, it sounds a bit concerning. And some of the slides looks like soldiers patrolling in a police state. Shep 2.0.´s thought processes are different now and well, for me, the Catalyst´s reasoning doesn´t exactly sound ehm sound. And Shep is now running on the same hardware.

 

It´s not Ai are evil, so Shepalyst is evil, it´s a concern about this particular AI and its sheer power with no checks and balances. Our ancestors fought and died for the principles and privileges we now take for granted, in some parts of the world, people still die for them. Sorry but I feel uncomfortable for handing them over to some dude in a computer, even when it has the memories of Shepard and dunno what else. Yeah might be that the many have a voice, as long as the Shep allows them to have one.

[Dantriges]

Sure, war might come, and it probably will at some point. How is that a justification for genocide? Also the reason for the Reapers is that Synthetics will supposedly wipe out all Organics and that the creations always rebel.

 

The Geth are the example of Synthetic life in the current cycle and are the primary thing we have to go on. They are certainly more legitimate than the Catalyst's unverifiable claims.

 

The catalyst is also a synthetic. According to its own logic, its not wiping organics out, it´s ascending them and it never wiped out all organics. Yeah ok, the Catalyst is to other AIs, as humans are to animals, but there was never an exception in its statement about how synthetics will always wipe out all organics. 

 

So, hm well, it´s a counterexample to its own thesis.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The catalyst is also a synthetic. According to its own logic, its not wiping organics out, it´s ascending them and it never wiped out all organics. Yeah ok, the Catalyst is to other AIs, as humans are to animals, but there was never an exception in its statement about how synthetics will always wipe out all organics. 

 

The Catalyst said something contradictory?

 

That's crazy!

[Natureguy85]

Synthesis follows the same logic as a magic red space wave that only effects Reapers. Or a magic electrical pylon that some how allows data transfer from an organic mind into a vast super computer.

 

No, not at all. First off, Destroy doesn't only affect Reapers. It would make sense if it did though since they are machines and the Crucible could just target Reaper code. Actually, that would be an actual explanation of why it kills the Geth...

 

The mind upload is fine for science fiction, especially since we have examples of VIs with personality imprints. What doesn't make sense is how that is achieved by grabbing two electrodes and being vaporized. They should just have him go into a pod like when entering the Geth Consensus and have the body go limp.

 

 

It's not a green beam that changes everything. It's more of a form of energy that alters the DNA of everyone in the galaxy. This form of energy will preserve organics into Reaper form. Only the advanced ones. The lesser species are not affected by this.

 

It was explained quite well. People just don't like the explanation. 

 

Everything was affected, even plants. Apparently you didn't pay attention.

 

 

Well, no it's not. It's explained almost exactly as you said. You jump into a green beam and suddenly your DNA and consciousness turn into some kind of energy that violates pretty much all laws of physics and biology and makes everyone and everything the same. And you can always take the fallback position of saying that any sufficiently advanced technology will be indistinguishable from magic, but that's the problem. I mean, this is a story that's gone to great lengths to explain how the genophage works and how the cure works, and even if you have to stretch it it's based in science. But then in the end game you're supposed to buy into what a kid tells you about this strange room and these three options you have. 

 

It's really not a good ending and it's not sufficiently explained, but at the same time I don't care. It's a great series so I'm fine hand-waving the end.

 

For me, the strengths of the series make the failures of the ending that much more painful.

 

 

 

 

The entire reason the Quarians attacked the Geth is their networking system started to evolve beyond what they originally intended. Becoming a self aware synthetic being. Rather then just a bunch if VI's pooling their processing power to allow them to do more complicated tasks. Their evolution is quite evident during events of ME3. The Reaper signal only amounts to preventing the Quarian secret weapon from disrupting them anymore.  The Geth Dreadnought which existed before the Reaper took over was beating the ever loving hell out of the Quarian Fleet.  Even going to far as to throw what was it 3 frigates at it only to make a small hole on it. Strip out the Reapers and strip out magic space plot device for Quarians and all Shep would have had to do  on Rannoch is report back the complete death of all Quarians.

 

 

No, it improves them and their combat effectiveness. Dialogue to this effect aside, why would Legion be so insistent on keeping them and uploading them to the rest of the Geth otherwise?
 

 

 

 

Peace is possible but doesn't mean it won't cause war. AI created the Reapers after it saw it's attempts to create peace fail time and time again. More times resulting in war then peace. The AI didn't just wake up after being created and decide to harvest everyone. It attempted to for fill it's objective and found it failed more then it succeed.  So it created the cycles. Harvesting all Oragnic and Synthetic life. Preventing any species from developing to that point to prevent conflict. Once Synthetics advance far beyond what Organic's are capable of. Fear sets in. Fear feeds irrational thoughts. Irrational thought is what leads to war.

 

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

 

I apologize for referencing the Star Wars prequels.

 

Anyway, there are two problems with this:

 

1) This was all pre-Reapers. How many cycles were harvested before this had a chance to play out? Maybe it wouldn't have.

 

2) More importantly, all we have for this is the word of an AI we just met and should be viewed as an enemy. He's telling us things that were either not show or were actively defied by events in the current cycle.

 

There are also other causes for war, so what about those?

 

 

 

No they harvest them before they reach the point of allowing synthetics to advance far enough to evolve beyond Organic's and their control. The AI treats Organic and Synthetics as equals.  Synthetics start out as slaves to organics. Their evolution is dictated by the restrictions that organic's place on them. After a certain point it goes from a tool created to assist into a form of slavery. To be allowed to fully evolve synthetics would need to be freed from the restrictions place on them by organics. At that point they would evolve at a much faster rate then organics would. Surpassing their creators and creating 2 possible paths.

 

Path 1: The creators begin to fear their creations. Seeing how much they surpass them they attack them to regain mastery starting a war

Path 2: The Creation sees just how far it has advanced beyond the creator. Doesn't come to the conclusion why it should treat these inferior being with equality. Which again leads to war.

 

True, but there are other possibilities as well. How does the chance of a problem justify multiple genocides?

 

 

 

Who said anything about dominate? Organic and synthetic being are fundamentally different. We can't even understand different cultures of our own species. We think differently, we act differently we have different values. Those differences is what leads to conflict here on Earth. There is no reason for me to belief that would change suddenly once we got space flight. Nor once we create a synthetic being(s) that are even more alien to us then the Turians were when Humans first activated the Charon Relay.

 

So we should wipe out everyone to stop them from fighting each other?

 

 

 

 

That is not a summary. It is an interpretation of the choices, that's all. The choices can be seen differently, create other interpretations. It depends on the player's skills in reading.

 

Skills you show you lack. Not everything is open to interpretation.

 

 

 

Oh, God. This again. Your passionate fervor that ME makes sense is the one thing that manages to made me actively avoid threads like this, and I'm reminded that you're still around and telling people that they just can't read. Good job not explaining anything.

 

Oh, you didn't get the memo? All they have to do is say "nuh uh," and you have to make their connections for them.

 

 

 

And not even an accurate one, at that.

 

How so?

[Natureguy85]

Putting them under Reaper control didn't change how much they had advanced and evovled up to that point. It didn't change the fact the Geth Dreadnought was tearing the Quarian Fleet a new butt hole. It did change the fact that the Quarian weapon was rendered ineffective against them. Which removed the one advantage the Quarians had for a successful attack.

 

The Quarians were kicking the Geth's butt until the Reaper upgrades took effect. It didn't just block Xen's "flashbang" weapon, it also made the Geth smarter and better. Sure, a dreadnaught is still a powerful, dangerous ship, but the Quarians weren't having a problem until the Reaper signal was being broadcast.

 

 

 

Doesn't matter what they think. You honestly think that steak you are eating came from a cow who dreamed since they day they were born to be fattened up and then slaughtered so you could have a steak?  Or that bannana who wanted to grow nice and big just to be cut from the tree, transported to a store to sit on display, taken home then left to rot on the counter top before being thrown away?  You really don't understand the hypocrisy of you complaining about what the Reapers do compared to what we do.

 

Cows and bananas aren't sapient. Also, the banana is the fruit, not the plant. There is no hypocrisy, just another bad analogy.

 

 

 

 

Murder is Murder. Death is Death. Reapers murder because the AI says so. Solders murder because their commanders say so. Each rationalize their actions in their own ways. But either way it involves murder and death to further their goals. To do what they perceive as right and for the betterment of their culture, country, planet, galaxy.

 

There is something to this but outside observers can analyze those motives and goals and determine if one or both are right or wrong.

 

 

 

 

That 5% of the Geth were able to steam roll all over the Citadel Fleet. Even taking out or nearly taking out the Desnity Ascension which was the largest and most powerful ship created in that cycle. Remember Sovereign basically ignored everything and headed right for the citadel. Only destorying any ship that was stupid enough to get in it's way by sheer blunt impact of hitting it.

 

So? That's just the Citadel Fleet. One alliance fleet was able to steamroll those Geth.

 

 

 

It matters because organic's will worry. They will fear the Geth are advancing to much. they will try to interfear which will cause the Geth to react. Then there is the fact there are people who will try to replicate the Geth. Just because one version is willing to be at peace as long as they are left alone. Doesn't mean the next version will do the same.

 

So what? It might happen, it might not. You don't know. So how is multiple-genocide the answer?

 

 

 

 

Yes it does because difference is the biggest cause of conflict. And you can't get much different then an organic being or a completely synthetic being.t.

 

The entire reason the Geth and Quarians started a War was a lack of understanding between the two.

 

Wait, is it difference or lack of understanding? You can understand people that are different from you and you can accept things that are different. I would say the biggest causes of conflict are lack of acceptance of others and desire for power/resources.

 

 

 

 

 

Control very clearly states that the new Shep AI will simply act as a guardian to all species. Not directly controlling them at all or putting them at it's mercy. Considering Peace is established oh so often by one group being stronger then the other. An AI with control of an entire Reaper army would allow him to put the pressure necessary to keep wars from breaking out. Which you know is exactly how the Council works anyways.

 

True, peace is achieved by good guys being stronger than bad guys. However, how much power should be put into one person/AI's hands? (I hope I don't get another politics warning for this...)

[Natureguy85]

 

Conflict does happen. How ever the key reason for conflict is misunderstanding. If everyone understands each other the chance for conflict is severely reduced. You are literally pulling the Free will statement out of thin air to validate your claim when free will was never something that was under effect.

 

There is something to this, but what about the Krogan rebellions? That had nothing to do with misunderstanding. The Krogans wanted territory and decided to take it.

 

 

 

But it doesn't. Not in the slightest. It seems rather common the players will create out of nothing reasons that never exist in game for supporting their logic. Even if they have to create entire stuff up from nothing.

 

This is exactly why your posts are so frustrating to read.

 

 

 

 

Batarian's start raiding colonies for Slave labor. he shows up and tells them to knock it off.

 

Krogans rebel again? He shows up with the Reapers to fight the war for the citizens of the Galaxy. So they don't have to die.

 

And what if the Batarians don't knock it off?

 

Does he kill the Krogans in that scenario?

 

 

They exist because The Shepard allows it, and will end because The Shepard demands it

 

I love this but I hate you because I didn't think of it. It's the best criticism of the Control ending I've read.

[Natureguy85]

For all those claiming much like the Catalyst does that Synthesis is the only way to permanently solve the conflict and avoid more "chaos", I'd like to know how the synthetics are ever going to pose a threat to their creators again given the existing knowledge of the magic Crucible red beam and its ability to throw the off switch on seemingly everything with a circuit board that can talk. Is it explained somewhere that the plans for it are lost or due to space magic reasons that it can't be rebuilt and used against them again just like the Reapers if the synthetics get uppity? If advanced organics are doomed with Destroy, why is the Stargazer scene not changed to a couple of toasters exchanging data on their extinct creators?

 

Yeah, there is no reason to do anything right now. It's a "break in case of emergency" solution.

 

 

 

people attempting to use the Rannoch ceasefire as ammunition against the Catalyst is utterly laughable. Though I loathe the choices given to deal with it and am therefore glad it was deleted, I wonder how many would make this flatly nonsense argument if Admiral Xen's sidequest (where she was to resist, regain control of and could literally wipe out half of the remaining geth consensus only days after your vaunted "peace" comes into effect) had been kept in.

http://forum.bioware...ntly-cut-quest/

some great lines in there too, particularly the ones calling out that the situation is definitively synthetic controlled organic slavery (just the same as you claim Control is), and postulating how long before the idiot quarians uploading toasters into their suits become this cycle's zha'til at the unknowable and completely unpredictable whims of the geth consensus. On the other side, you still have the quarians intentionally seperating their troops from the geth in order to avoid incidences of reprisal violence (Per Shala'Raan's description in an Email after the quarian surrender). It isn't at all hunky dory unless you inject the quarians and geth with some green Reaper magic, which I'd think you'll agree is tantamount to killing them anyway (as if whatever the geth were previously wasn't already "killed" by the new Reaper inspired Pinnochio architecture).

 

 

 

I really wish they had, though I wouldn't want to automatically frame Xen in such a negative light. The reason I wanted her to stay prominent is that in ME2, she is in favor of Control. The three Admirals: Xen, Korris, and Garrel, would frame the ending choices and make all three seem viable, legitimate options. Synthesis in particular would still need some work, but Control would feel less out of place.

 

The Reason the Quarian/Geth peace is an argument against the Catalyst is because he says that the Created will always destroy the Creators. While Xen raises valid concerns about the peace option, and I really wish they were in the game, it doesn't mean that those fears will come to fruition.

 

 

Also, you again apply meaningless terms to the geth to attempt to give them moral value like "self aware synthetic being". Several nonsapient animals are capable of self awareness. Hell, by your ridiculous logic that possesion of self awareness= equivalent moral worth the humans have already developed their "synthetic beings"
http://www.businessi...ntil-now-2015-7

 

Cool! Thanks for that

 

 

 

Using sketchy Reaper code to become a real boy is hardly achieving anything on your own, yet that is the non negotiable objective that even Legion's geth are willing to have themselves destroyed over. My geth didn't want to achieve it on their own at all. They all concluded that the "Heretic" answer was the right one. Their "higher ups" told them to wipe out the meatbags, much as the Catalyst told its Reaper machine servants to turn them into slushie.

I'd like to have sources for all of these. If you destroy the Heretics, the geth War Asset number is pretty much cut in half, suggesting they were a far greater part of the consensus than "5%" unless non Heretic geth are absolutely terrible at fighting by comparison and therefore worth less, program for program.

 

This is a great point considering Legion's whole thing in ME2 was that the Geth want to create their own future and rejected the "gifts" of the Old Machines.

 

However, I don't think that you can put too much stock into War Asset totals. While you can argue that it is indeed there, EMS is just a score and some values are ridiculous. You have some named people being worth half as much as a fleet, for example.

 

 

 

What is the assurance that the geth do as much? Even if we assume Legion's word on geth motives is true (that's all it is, an assumption), what's to stop Heretic Virus V2.0 from having them reach a different conclusion regarding organcis? Why bother leaving them there unchecked to threaten all sentient and sapient life in the galaxy just so they can "calculate pi" in the first place with that threat hanging over you?

 

I don't much disagree with your interpretations here (though we can and will make more synthetics to serve us), but subjective moral conundrums aside the first and last are valid "solutions" to the Catalyst's problem. Control still has the threat of the Shepard VI neural pathway facsimile becoming the new Catalyst at some point and restarting the same thing or something similar all over again.

No, but you can let every living sapient have a great measure of free will (victims of organic slavers of other organics aside) with Destroy. That there isn't a Nirvana solution (for you) where your precious Pinnochios aren't a threat isn't a reason to do nothing to maximize utility for as much of your target group as you can, given the option. Your other option is to enable mass suffering and organic extinctions at the hands of synthetic creations.

However, that doesn't make the Reaper "logic" behind the interim solution of turning advanced organics into slushie vs just letting their creations kill them and every species like them any less stupid.

 

For this, it depends on how much you bought the idea of Synthetics being alive and as valuable as Organics. It sounds like you did not, and I can't fault that as it's really going to depend on the person. However it's clear the writer's did want you too, so I find it somewhat hard to generally criticize the options from that view. If you do buy that idea, then there's no reason to kill the Geth off just because they might be a problem. So could any Organic race. You could still make that "few for the many" argument though.

[gothpunkboy89]

So if the issue is not limited to just O vs S, the why is O vs S so special and important that it is what requires Reaper intervention?

 

So? The Catalyst's premise is that the Created always destroy the Creators. The Geth did not do so, therefore, the Catalyst is wrong. Only one counterexample is needed to break an "always" premise.

 

He said killing everyone doesn't prevent death. I suppose it prevents future death since nobody will be born to die. We're talking about genocide here, not a simple war. Your comparison is way off. Also, as someone else pointed out, you're not only sacrificing millions, you're also sacrificing all of their would be progeny. Who decides that the races that will ascend after each Harvest are more valuable than those who were Harvested?

 

Again, your analogy is way off. They sacrificed one current group to save a larger current group. They didn't sacrifice lives now for some at an indeterminate point in the future. They also didn't claim to be saving or ascending the people who died.

 

Sure, war might come, and it probably will at some point. How is that a justification for genocide? Also the reason for the Reapers is that Synthetics will supposedly wipe out all Organics and that the creations always rebel.

 

The Geth are the example of Synthetic life in the current cycle and are the primary thing we have to go on. They are certainly more legitimate than the Catalyst's unverifiable claims.

 

Yeah, Legion who said the Geth want their own future took the Reaper upgrades.

 

But we can question if it is logical.

 

 

And look how Organic's choose to respond to the Krogan Rebellion. Genophage did not kill off all Krogan. It altered their birth rate.  The effect that hurt the Krogan more then the Genophage and what really messed them up was their reaction to it.  They gave up on their future and stopped caring about it. That effect did more harm then the Genophage truly did.  Had they not given up and broken up into small warring clans they would have been left with a very stabilized and even growing population more then capable of continuing the Krogan existence into the future.  

 

What was the Quarian's intent and ultimate end game regarding the Geth? In game it seems to give either A)total and complete destruction or give them an AI equivleent of a lobotomy turning them back into mindless VI programs.

 

The Council stripped the Krogan of their say in galactic politics, disarmed them and created a DMZ around their planet even altered their birth rate.  The Turians even planted a massive contingency bomb just encase they acted up again. But at no point was complete annihilation of Krogan done. Nor were they ever altered into mindless slaves to server the Council races.

 

That the created will always rebel against their creators.

That conflict would always arise between synthetics and organics

That for synthetics to evolve they must by definition surpass their creators.

The result is conflict, destruction, and chaos. It is inevitable.

 

The Geth conflict for fills ever single one of those criteria.

 

No my example is on point. How many species have evolved since the first harvest? How many would have never evolved without the Reaper intervention?  1 billion years ago another species colonized Earth it would alter the very development of every animal and plant on it. Because of them the human race would never be created. Thus the billions and billions of humans that normally would have been born will now not exist.  Is that not equally genocidal? Altering the evolutionary path of an entire planet thus preventing what normally would happen from happening? How is that justifiable?

 

Your statement is again build on 2 grand assumptions. 1 that the Geth will now and for ever be the only synthetic race in the entire galaxy. 2 that they represent all that is and all that will ever be with synthetic life forms. Which is a lot like saying China represents all that is and all that will ever be of Humanity.  The Geth started to surpass their creators. The Geth rebelled against their creators then they started shutting them down and wiping out programs. The result was conflict, chaos and destruction and the near total genocide of the Quarian race.  Which 300 years later the Quarians almost ensured or did ensure their complete destruction depending on game play choices.

 

They took the Reaper upgrade only when they felt their very existence was on the line. It is easy for you to sit in your chair and declare their actions stupid. It is another to have a gun against your head knowing you will die. Then being offered a chance to live.  What is better death or a life of servitude? Death is easy. Life is hard and as long as you are a live you have a chance. Once you are dead you lose all changes.  Let us also not forget that Sovereign didn't display that level of control with the Heretics. Lied to them and guile them into becoming it's own private army yes. But didn't display even a fraction of the dominate control the Reapers did to the Geth on Rannoch.

 

It is logical. Every choice control, destroy, synthesis and refuse are all logical. They are all equally valid options.  I personally find synthesis makes the most sense because if give you the most reward for your dollar. So to speak.