2565 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Sentience and Sapient are two different things.
 
Sapience is often defined as wisdom, or the ability of an organism or entity to act with appropriate judgement, a mental faculty which is a component of intelligence or alternatively may be considered an additional faculty, apart from intelligence, with its own properties. Robert Sternberg^%5B23%5D has segregated the capacity for judgement from the general qualifiers for intelligence, which is closer to cognizant aptitude than to wisdom. Displaying sound judgement in a complex, dynamic environment is a hallmark of wisdom.
 
https://en.wikipedia...Wisdom#Sapience

Get thee to a scientific journal if you're going to claim sapient plant life. You can't just throw around terms that you read on a Yahoo News article. Sapience, by definition, has to be of, or related to, humans. The root word itself is an identifier of humans. Now, if you want to claim that plants are capable of some kind of thought process then I'd be okay with that, but it's different from any kind of thought process that we're aware of simply by fact of plants not having brains.

And I've completely forgotten what this has to do with anything, except your outrageous claim that throwing away a rotten banana was somehow equivalent to murder. Is it your contention that I committed murder when I ate a banana for breakfast this morning?
 

Monica was continually claiming that Control Shep can't enforce one species or other species ideas on another. So internal slavery is ok with Batarians because that is how their society developed.  They have a very strict chaste system that includes slavery.  By her reasoning and her logic the galaxy at large can not force the batarains to abandon slavery because it is enforcing a different ideology on them then their own. So internal slavery would be find because it is just Batarians.

I hate it when I'm misrepresented. I never claimed that Control Shep can't enforce one species' laws onto another. What I did say is that we have international rules of combat presented in various forms, from treaties to conventions, and the Mass Effect universe has something similar in having Council Space. You're the one who claimed that walking into a Wal-Mart and shooting everyone is the same thing as conquering, and that's when I corrected you and said that under U.S. law you would be committing first degree murder.

The reason you're having so much trouble with simple comprehension is that you're the one who keeps moving the goalposts. Shepard absolutely can impose his view of law onto every galactic species. You made the comparison that the Krogan killing millions of people is murder only under the modern legal definition.

Where it gets hazy for you is that you can't comprehend that murder isn't murder everywhere. You don't understand that murder is a strictly legal definition and not a moral or ethical one. We came to this definition because of moral and ethical consequences of shooting people, but that doesn't mean that every species has evolved to reach the same conclusion we did. "He killed her" is a statement of fact. He could have killed her in any number of ways. He might have waited in the bushes and shot her, or he might have hit her with his car when she was crossing the street, or he might have killed her to prevent her from killing him. Or, "her" could be a goldfish that he forgot to feed. "He murdered her" is a legal charge against someone for the purposes of trying them in a court of law.

And this is why arguing with you is so annoying. You keep changing what your definitions mean, you keep changing your argument, and you failed to even acknowledge that a Control Shepard could be problematic. Again, you continue to describe him as an angry but kind parent and absolutely refuse to see even the negatives of a Renegade Control Shepard. Your reasoning is unsound and illogical, and you willfully misunderstand even the simplest things, like whether or not a plant has human-like qualities.

[Dantriges]

 
Well I'm glad you established this because it (and my ensuing response) kind of answers the OP title question. Different people have different preferences. In my case, status-quo is all well and good, but if the opportunity exists for taking more then I will generally go for it. I go Green.

 

Ok, I have to admit going green sounds pretty good in theory. But well, green and blue sound a bit iffy. I don´tthnik that establishing a galactic overlord, whatever his/her intentions might be, is such a good idea and Green is too much out there for my tastes. Not the really impossible parts like beam changes DNA, but the part where you have the feeling, they should have looked into their old highschool textbooks.

I acually liked the approach of SR Hong Kong where you talked a lot about transhumanism, danger and opportunities of the merging of man and machine  with one of your team mates. But well it raised questions and possible answers, but not a definite one.

[Quarian Master Race]

That is a sad excuse to use. The Quraians new there would be damage. They knew what starting a fight would entail. So to claim they didn't outfit their ships with the best they could out of fear of them being damaged is stupid in the extreme.  Seriously you need a better reason then that.

 

The Geth out matched the Quraians in every way shape and form. It was only the Quarian's ability to blind the geth did they gain the advantage. When the Reapers ended that advantage the Geth started slaughtering the Quarians.

Who said anything about the quarians not bringing the best they could? They brought everything they had. The Liveships and their dreadnought scale weaponry were both a military weapon and strategic (food production) resource to the quarians. They couldn't afford to lose even one of them without half their population starving to death, let alone all 3, fortunately without Reaper help the geth can't threaten them. In fact, if you choose to genocide the quarians, the reason they are defeated is because the Reaper upgraded geth find and target the Civilian ships including the Liveships (according to the "Battle of Rannoch" codex entry) because those ships start firing on the geth after the Reaper is destroyed, not knowing that the geth have been upgraded again (because no one on the ground tells them). Similarly, if the Reaper code is not upgraded, the quarians obliterate the entire geth fleet (your vaunted Dreadnoughts and all) quite easily by simply sniping them from the other side of the system, using Tikkun as a gravitational slingshot to arc shells at the geth fleet, which with their bandwith clogged with garbage data are unable to find and retaliate

Haha, no. That's not how it went down at all. The geth were being obliterated by the quarians and lost four entire solar systems twice as fast as Hitler was able to take France alone in WW2. The Migrant Fleet in ME3 is objectively superior to the non upgraded geth, that is not up for debate. So superior in fact that Legion/ VI states the geth lost intelligence they were being schlonged so badly, and their survival was dependant upon the Reapers. The quarians quite literally beat them stupid.

Even when the geth were given upgrades to counter the quarian technological advantage, it only temporarily forces the quarians into a defensive strategy, using guerilla tactics against an enemy that outnumbers them nearly 1000:1 in terms of manpower until they successfully take the geth's Reaper endowed advantage right back away. There is no "slaughter" per the codex: 

"In an initial battle against the Reaper-upgraded geth ships, the quarians found their Heavy Fleet and a portion of the Patrol Fleet outmatched. To stave off defeat, the quarians retreated at FTL speeds to rally with the Civilian fleet on the far side of Rannoch's sun, Tikkun. Temporarily hidden, but with only minutes of advance warning should a geth scout spot them, the quarians planned counterattacks to disrupt the geth link with the Reapers. First preying on a damaged geth dreadnought, the quarians followed by sending strike teams to Rannoch's surface to destroy the Reaper that was transmitting improved software to geth forces."


The geth slaughter nothing without their Pinnochio code and without their enemy being lured out of concealment and into a trap by a potentially traitorous ally (Shepard), wherein victory is practically handed to them on a sliver platter through no ability of their own. The geth only outmatch the quarians (or any organic except possibly the Rachni or Krogan, for that matter) in one manner: numbers. Despite individual networked platforms being as dumb as or dumber than animals, they don't require rest, sleep or wages, don't physically cease to exist unless you destroy their servers and can work endlessly to build more of themselves and simply win via attrition no matter how many you reduce to scrap. From the wiki:

"In combat, geth units show little sense of self-preservation.  As geth programs are functionally immortal, they place little value on platforms and will expend thousands of units to take an enemy position, which was commonly experienced by the quarians during the Morning War."

Geth subscribe to the Zapp Branigan school of military tactics. There are plenty of examples of this in game. Shep and Co. slaughter thousands of them and singlehandedly push them off of 5 planets in ME1's Geth Incursions sidequest. Then we have Kirrahe, Kaidan/Ashley and a small STG squad obliterate an entire firebase worth of toasters on Virmire. Later on Haestrom, it takes a massive geth force with both armor and air support a huge amount of time to take on a single squad of "a dozen" quarian marines and Tali armed only with small arms. Kal'Reegar alone holds off a force described as "platoon strength" and supported by an armoured vehicle for an inordinate amount of time (A Rifle platoon in the US military is 42-43 men depending on whether you are talking Army or Marines), and with support from a little 3 man squad can obliterate them. The toasters again apply the "massive waves of geth" tactic on the Alarei, but are again defeated easily with only a few casualties either by Shep/Tali retaking the ship or the quarians simply destroying it after a small squad of marines fails to make inroads against the zerg rush of several dozen platforms. When going to evac Admiral Koris in ME3, you can come upon quarian civilian maintenence worker Dorn'Hazt, whom despite having never held a gun in his life singlehandedly takes out a dozen or so toasters before bleeding out (their platforms litter the ground near him).

Actually, this is referenced in banter between resident toaster deactivation specialists Tali and Javik if you take them on the same mission. Paraphrased:

Javik: "Quarian! You've fought these machines before. What are their tactics?"
Tali: "The same tactic as always: more geth"
Javik: "As I suspected, synthetics lack creativity. They think everything can be solved by numbers alone".

They're useless except as easily replacable, expendable cannon fodder (much like the krogan). The only geth that seems halfway capable in a fight pre-Reaper code is the prototype platform that Legion uses, which is capable of networking enough geth together to think of something other than "zerg the enemy until they run out of bullets or are crushed under the weight of our scrap metal". Apparently, they can't produce these en masse, though, because if they could there'd obviously be no point in continuing with the old models which are less than mindless, vicious animals. Even a pack of animals are capable of overwhelming the armed human hunter, given the numbers, but that doesn't make them superior in any other way to the superior human species.

By contrast the quarians are known in military terms for their impressive tactical, strategic and cyberwarfare and other technological capablities, which enable them to punch far above their weight, and are put on full display in using a population which is less than a single Earth city like New York to destoy an empire of billions of geth networked platforms spanning 5 star systems. This skill is referenced on multiple occasions. From the ME3 description

"A flotilla of 50,000 craft holding over 17 million quarians, the Migrant Fleet is the largest array of spacefaring vessels in the known galaxy. It is a testament to the quarians' strategic skill that these numbers have not dropped significantly during recent battles. The fleet is now on the far side of the star from Rannoch, the better to cloak its movement from the geth."

Specialist Traynor: "I'm networking the quarian combat data into ours, they've got amazing technical coverage. They might even have the salarians beat for strategic processing capability".

Commander Shepard also focuses on this doctrinal acumen when questioned about what the quarians are bringing to the fight by Diana Allers. From the War Asset description of the Heavy Fleet: "Commander Shepard's interview with Diana Allers about the quarians portrayed them as a highly skilled war force. The confidence in their fighting ability increased the quarian Heavy Fleet's morale."

I can't find the actual interview (I guess very few people are smart enough to destroy the geth), but Shepard stress how the quarian campaign resulted in "very few casualties" for the quarians. Where is this supposed slaughter? The geth are capable of inflicting no such thing without either a trillion platforms or being handed technologies that they themselves were too stupid to invent. By contrast, everything the quarians bring to the table is due to their own ability. Without Reaper's saving their toaster brethren, they get scrapped all the same. 

Just to add insult to injury, the maximum war asset score for the quarians is also superior at 875 vs the geth's 815. Objectively, and even with the geth "buliding their own future" by begging Shep to save them from the wrath of their creators, and shamelessly stealing Reaper tech, it is undeniable: Bucketheads> toasters.

GETH= Garbage at Everything Toasters and their Huggers. They're just machines, and machines can be broken.

 

 

 

Quarians did not surpass the Geth. They exploited a flaw in their radar system. This rendered all their ships blind. Unable to see the Quarians Ships attacking they couldn't properly defend themselves.  Had they had windows on their ships this would be a problem. But they don't use windows.

 

LOL. Ignoring that this isn't how the geth weapon works at all (the technobabble indicates that it overwhelms their bandwidth, not that it breaks their optics), now the geth lost because they don't have windows? You are aware that Space Combat in the MEverse occurs at ranges from thousands to millions of kilometers far out of visual range, rule of cool cutsenes aside. Description of the Battle of Rannoch per the codex, version with Reaper meddling removed from the equation:
"After the quarians eliminated the Reaper, the geth's processing power dropped precipitously and their bandwidth became clogged with queries for new instructions. Quarian fighters reported the exact positions of geth ships so that the liveships could fire safely on the geth from the far side of Tikkun, using the star's gravity as a slingshot. The geth command-and-control network was now in tatters, their forces separated by vast distances. The quarians hunted them like animals. It was not a one-sided victory -- despite vast losses, the geth staged a tireless defense -- but it was final."

but you're telling me that if the geth had put windows on their ships that they'd be able to retaliate against the ships reducing them to scrap from half a solar system away? Does their fire control system consist of the Hubble Telescope with crosshairs scratched onto its mirrors or something?

 

[Natureguy85]

So you admit that a dictatorship can achieve desirable overall ends, then (which, in Wrex's case, involves subverting the will of the people rather than catering to it). Good.
 

 

Were there "mostly" truth to that, interventionism in the Middle East would be working out great.
 

I was responding to the claim that they would wipe out all organic life.

re: your sig -- drayfish is a complete jerk-off.

 

In fiction particularly. However like I said, what happens after Wrex? But where does Wrex subvert the will of the people? I don't remember that. I know there was dissent, but he talks about having other clans rally to him and his plan in ME2. What am I forgetting?

 

Your comment on the interventionism doesn't make much sense. The "democracy project" has failed to establish much democracy because you can't have it without a civil society. The preference to having kept the strongmen in place is only because they kept something worse at bay.

[gothpunkboy89]

Get thee to a scientific journal if you're going to claim sapient plant life. You can't just throw around terms that you read on a Yahoo News article. Sapience, by definition, has to be of, or related to, humans. The root word itself is an identifier of humans. Now, if you want to claim that plants are capable of some kind of thought process then I'd be okay with that, but it's different from any kind of thought process that we're aware of simply by fact of plants not having brains.

And I've completely forgotten what this has to do with anything, except your outrageous claim that throwing away a rotten banana was somehow equivalent to murder. Is it your contention that I committed murder when I ate a banana for breakfast this morning?
 

I hate it when I'm misrepresented.

 

Never claimed sapient plant life. Only that they had an awareness of sorts. And awareness is stretching the word of it. They have learned how to manipulate other life to further their protection or procreation. Tree's can flower and pollinate in near perfect synchronization regardless of age of tree to prevent minimize any wasted pollen and maximize their reproduction cycle.  Hell they even wage a sort of chemical warfare on other trees.  Pine needles when they decay raises the acidity level of the soil to levels only other pine trees can tolerate. eucalyptus tree are highly fire resistant and actually excrete a substance almost like napalm from their bark. They actually encourage fires to burn out any of their competition so they can grow more of themselves.

 

There is something going on there. Not quite aware but not completely unaware.

 

 

You aren't misrepresented nor do I change the goal posts. I stated very clear statements and you keep trying to change it. 

 

You stated you are against the concept of the Control Shep AI. Correct?  I stated there was no problem because he would act and only intervene when the peace or protection of the galaxy was in danger.  Which would mean rather important events happening not some Krogan stabbing a Turain in the back during a bar fight. That would be for local police forces to deal with. I gave you 2 examples from known possible in game events that AI shep would step in on. Batarian civilization rebuilding and starting back up the slave raids and Wrev trying to lead the Krogan on another Krogan Rebellion. Both issues if not solved would/could end up being solved on the battlefield.

 

 So, the colonies should learn to defend themselves. Why is GodShepard involved at all?
 
And this is how conquest works. It's the way it always worked. An army shows up with larger forces and better weapons and they win. If the Krogan can defeat all the armies of the galaxy, then they deserve the spoils of war.

 

 

Was your responds.  Which is were your own logic started to slip. Because you seem to contradict yourself in 2 ways.

 

1. Your statement makes it clear you accept guy with larger force and better weapons wins. And if they win they deserve all the spoils of war. Yet "GodShepard" as you call it would follow the same logic here. He has the largest force he controls the better weapons. His spoils of war is the ability to protect and eliminate any threat to galactic peace.  Yet you are against the idea of him doing that. Even though his every action will be following the rules of Conquest.

 

2. You certainly seem to not like the Reapers nor the AI and their harvesting of advance life. But each cycle they attack and beat the life in said cycle. Their spoils of war is harvesting all advanced organic and synthetic life into a new Reaper body.  Yet you don't like the idea. To quote you:

 

And this is how conquest works. It's the way it always worked. And army shows up with larger forces and better weapons and they win. If the Reapers can defeat all the armies of the galaxy then they deserve the spoils of war.

[themikefest]

Having better weapons and a larger force doesn't always mean victory. Its how you use those better weapons and larger forces that leads to victory

[Quarian Master Race]

Yeah, there is no reason to do anything right now. It's a "break in case of emergency" solution.

 

 

 

 

 

I really wish they had, though I wouldn't want to automatically frame Xen in such a negative light. The reason I wanted her to stay prominent is that in ME2, she is in favor of Control. The three Admirals: Xen, Korris, and Garrel, would frame the ending choices and make all three seem viable, legitimate options. Synthesis in particular would still need some work, but Control would feel less out of place.

 

The Reason the Quarian/Geth peace is an argument against the Catalyst is because he says that the Created will always destroy the Creators. While Xen raises valid concerns about the peace option, and I really wish they were in the game, it doesn't mean that those fears will come to fruition.

 

 

 

Cool! Thanks for that

 

 

 

 

This is a great point considering Legion's whole thing in ME2 was that the Geth want to create their own future and rejected the "gifts" of the Old Machines.

 

However, I don't think that you can put too much stock into War Asset totals. While you can argue that it is indeed there, EMS is just a score and some values are ridiculous. You have some named people being worth half as much as a fleet, for example.

 

 

 

 

For this, it depends on how much you bought the idea of Synthetics being alive and as valuable as Organics. It sounds like you did not, and I can't fault that as it's really going to depend on the person. However it's clear the writer's did want you too, so I find it somewhat hard to generally criticize the options from that view. If you do buy that idea, then there's no reason to kill the Geth off just because they might be a problem. So could any Organic race. You could still make that "few for the many" argument though.

There should have been way more options to be in Xen's corner (i.e. any at all). It'd be thematically consistent. The Renegade persuasion on Rannoch should have involved killing Legion and Shep/Xen convincing Gerrel to force the geth into submission due to their utility. This would provide an alternative that acquires both geth and quarian war assets but doesn't require threatening with genocide and enslaving the organics to their machines, and threatening the entire galaxy with geth domination and the inevitable extinctions of advanced organic species resulting from it.

Sadly, Bioware's writers were more interested in vilifying the opinion that synthetic technologies are extremely useful but not entitled to any moral consideration, and your only options with Xen are to deride her as "crazy" for expressing such an opinion (along with Tali's forced idiocy in criticizing her for how she used to play with her childhood toys). Apparently, being a toaster hugging neo hippie or a toaster hating moronic Luddite are both reasonably acceptable ideologies, but Xen's or TIM's isn't (It's apparently ok for Shep tho, provided s/he turns their neural pathways into a toaster to do it first). In Biowriter world, you are either smart and thus think toasters are people entitled to the same rights as sentient lifeforms, or you are dumb and want to smash them like an ignorant racist caveman. Other opinions are clearly derived from some sort of insanity no matter if they are well informed. 

You're taking the Catalyst's statement out of context. It never states that all synthetics will always destroy their creators, merely that organics will eventually create synthetics that destroy them. It's logic need not apply to every single example of synthetic technology ever created, LOKI mechs obviously aren't posing much of a threat to humanity, for example. Without Reaper intervention, neither did the geth to their creators. Whether or not the organics can occasionally or even frequently succeed against less advanced synthetics isn't really relevant if they are just going to build more advanced ones that finish the job, which despite being flawed logic according to what we know of human (and by extension humanlike alien) nature is apparently a fact of organic behavior in the ME universe. Ultimately, your sample size is a single example of independent synthetics over a mere 300 years. The Catalyst has over a billion years and thousands of cycles to the contrary.

Xen's prediction really isn't up for debate in the MEverse. You're speculating that the "peace" (read: forcible enslavement of an organic species to synthetics) will last for any meaningful length of time despite no evidence that such a situation has ever resulted in the past, and evidence that Xen's prediciton or something like it has (the zha'til, the Leviathan's experiences with its thralls, and the Catalyst's experiments).

War asset totals are what they are. I agree that it seems to place inordinate importance on seemingly superhero individuals (nothing new in this series with one guy apparently saving the galaxy singlehandedly), but it seems reasonable enough for comparing fleets to other fleets (such as the quarians to the geth). Until someone can actually source that "5%" stat I'm going to continue to conclude that it is bollocks, and that rather the Heretics are actually a significant minority if not equal to the baseline geth, given that the Heretics are shown to be a huge threat capable of force projection all over the galaxy, and their existence (or lack therof) has a massive effect on the outcome of the Battle for Rannoch in terms of how many quarians are still breathing and how much material the geth can bring to the fight.

No doubt the writers wanted to push the "toasters are people too" ideology and frame all opposition to it as a metaphor for actual racism, but in my mind they failed laughably when they refused to provide the technical reasons why the machines were supposedly anything more than just that. They also made the very in universe experts on these technologies like Xen, Kahlee Sanders, Gavin Archer and Dr. Shu Qian some of the most ardent opponents of the idea that they were anything but toasters. In absence of knowledge (which the writers provided virtually none of in relation to the supposed sentience and therefore moral worth of their synthetics), I tend to take the opinion of elites, deferring in the matter of boots to the authority of the shoemaker as Bakunin once put. I need more than a couple talking toasters and the opinions of some grunt without a college education to go against in universe authorities talking about their own life's work as well as my own understandings of science and morality.

It'd have been better if they'd written it where scientific elites were the one fighting for synthetic rights against the ignorant masses, but in the absence of that it's a bit like claiming global warming or evolution doesn't exist in spite of the consensus of the scientific community. It's likely I could never be fully convinced on this issue, given that with my understanding of the sciences I'm of the opinion that AI's like we see in fiction are a scientific impossibility, as fantastical as other elements of such settings such as FTL travel.

People here do understand the value of surprise attacks, they just don´t follow you to every harebrained conclusion you jump at. We had that debate. For me it looked like this:
Gothboy: Surprise attack, really awesome will result in-> x -> y ->z, irrefutable truth, tada.
Me: Hm yeah, it´s really good when you get the drop on your enemies, but I don´t think that would result in x without other factors, nor y or z.
Gb: X results in Y because of surprise attack.
Me: Why?
Gb: because of surprise attack you dumbie. A surprise attack will result in x, because there was some example in history where that happened.
Me: You ignore other factors like A,B,C?
Gb: Surprise attack, really awesome will result in-> x -> y ->z, irrefutable truth, tada.

Or in short, whenever you use surprise attack it sounds like a surprise attack results in x, because x is the result of a surprise attack.

Glad I'm not the only one seeing dude's laughably childish logic. I guess all that Luxemborg has to do to conquer the Earth is to not tell anyone that they're going to attack before they do it!

Lets just ignore that a huge number, if not the vast majority of surprise attacks in the past century of warfare (Pearl Harbor, Operation Barbarosa, North Korean invasion of the South, Yom Kippur, Sept 11) have resulted in the side that employs them losing quite badly. Apparently, you can't win a war in the first week or so unless your enemy is just utterly inept and probably would have lost regardless. It can provide a temporary advantage, done properly, but it's in no way some kind of trump card to military strategy.

 

They had to wipe out the geth to survive, heh? Did the peace for both option got cut out recently? 

yes, insofar as "survival" as a slave race of their own machines isn't desirable. You can convince some of their more spineless leaders to accept this Faustian bargin, for at least a few months, but to say that means that the quarian species will last very long given the body of evidence that organics get destroyed by allowing their synthetics to operate unchecked is wishful thinking, at least without the knowledge of what the Crucible does.

There's also the fact there are more permuations of Rannoch where even this form of coexistence are impossible than not, though admittedly all are predicated on Shepard and Tali/Raan being inept morons who for some reason can't relay simple tactical information like "the geth have their Reaper tech again, surrender or you'll lose" to Gerrel all being tied to a bunch of videogamey reputation checks. The result is contriving the only options into scrapping the geth or betraying and essentially duping the quarians at a critical moment, entrapping them in a situation they had no knowledge of that gets nearly the entire species exterminated.

[Monica21]

Never claimed sapient plant life.

You claimed exactly that. But I'll watch you try and back out of it.
 

You stated you are against the concept of the Control Shep AI. Correct?  I stated there was no problem because he would act and only intervene when the peace or protection of the galaxy was in danger.

And this is fine if this is your personal headcanon. You can't state it as fact. There's nothing in the language Control Shep uses or in any real life instance that you can point to that states that this is unequivocally the way an all-powerful and all-knowing entity would behave. Refusing to even acknowledge that there are potential problems with a being that has that much power is ignorant.
 

1. Your statement makes it clear you accept guy with larger force and better weapons wins. And if they win they deserve all the spoils of war. Yet "GodShepard" as you call it would follow the same logic here. He has the largest force he controls the better weapons. His spoils of war is the ability to protect and eliminate any threat to galactic peace.  Yet you are against the idea of him doing that. Even though his every action will be following the rules of Conquest.

This is your premise, not mine.
 

2. You certainly seem to not like the Reapers nor the AI and their harvesting of advance life. But each cycle they attack and beat the life in said cycle. Their spoils of war is harvesting all advanced organic and synthetic life into a new Reaper body.  Yet you don't like the idea.

One has nothing to do with the other. I can still be opposed to subjugation and have an understanding of how conquest works. That's how the British Empire was built. That's Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great and the Roman Empire. That doesn't mean that I would welcome being decimated by an race of machines.

[gothpunkboy89]

 

Admiral Xen's corps of research and development eventually create a means to cause massive white-noise jamming against the highly precise geth ladar scanning systems.

Geth ships rely on the Ladar Scanning systems to "see" with their ships. If the Quarians could target them from half a solar system away then the Geth under normal circumstances would be able to see them as well and target them back. The jammer how ever blinds the geth ships they can't see the Quarians like the Quarians can see them.

 

Remember under normal circumstances this is a fight between two equally advanced groups. This isn't Salarian Vs Humans Pre Relay.

 

The Geth lost intelligence because they Quarians targeted their Dyson sphere thing. What ever they called it wiping out thousands if not more geth programs. Despite the double handicap the Geth still kept themselves from being over whelmed.

 

Reaper upgrade when taken advanced the Geth back to full intelligence and eliminated the jammer from the equation. Ending both advantages the Quarians had.  Out matched is military term for getting rear handed to you.  So they retreated out of range of Geth Ships

 

The Geth Dreadnought I mention was disabled by Legion/VI Legion and destroyed by the Heavy Fleet after the mission.

[Bowlcuts]

I think all of the endings are painfully done and is a god-awful way you close a trilogy.

But at the very least, I feel as I continued onto my characterized path when choosing the Destroy ending.

Synthesis is illogically and morally stupid but can be justified as doing so whilst straying onto the Geth and the larger picture of negating future conflicts.

 

Dunno about Control, haven't finished my Renegade playthrough yet.

[gothpunkboy89]

You claimed exactly that. But I'll watch you try and back out of it.
 



And this is fine if this is your personal headcanon. You can't state it as fact. There's nothing in the language Control Shep uses or in any real life instance that you can point to that states that this is unequivocally the way an all-powerful and all-knowing entity would behave. Refusing to even acknowledge that there are potential problems with a being that has that much power is ignorant.
 

This is your premise, not mine.
 

One has nothing to do with the other. I can still be opposed to subjugation and have an understanding of how conquest works. That's how the British Empire was built. That's Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great and the Roman Empire. That doesn't mean that I would welcome being decimated by an race of machines.

 

Again I never claimed. Notice how I put a space between the first sentence and the next one that goes on about planets. The first one was about Cows. Which are clearly intelligent able to think and rationalize and have feeling of emotions.  The second paragraph (if you can call 3 sentences a paragraph) started up on plants. Which again I showed they have an awareness of sorts. But please do show how all those actions I list plants capable of doing are just sheer random coincidence. That has been observed time and time again. I can wait.

 

I'm just going to address this because I see huge red flags in the control ending. Shepard's dialogue does not support your conclusion that the GodShep will simply be a guardian. 

 

Paragon: To give the many hope for a future; to ensure that all have a voice in their future. / To right the wrongs of the past; to provide a voice to those too weak to speak for themselves. 

Renegade: To provide the many with a powerful leader; to put an end to the bickering of the many; to ensure the strongest are not feared or reviled for their strength. 

 

Paragon: I will rebuild what the many have lost; I will create a future with limitless possibilities; I will protect, and sustain; I will act as guardian for the many.

Renegade: I will restore what the many have fought for; I will lead an army that none will dare oppose; I will protect, defend; I will destroy those who threaten the future of the many. 

 

Yes, Shepard will act as a Guardian, but at what cost? What will that lead to? If Renegade Shepard plans to lead an army, who will he kill? Because he's already committed to destruction if need be. If Paragon Shepard plans to protect, who will he kill to protect those who have no voice? Because you can't conclude that Paragon and Renegade Shep won't be the cause of many deaths in order to protect one world view of what the galaxy should be. And if we assume that he doesn't actually kill people, we can assume that he will use fear and intimidation to subvert free will. There's no way not to draw those conclusions if you're paying attention. 

 

Was your quote. The lines from the game are pretty clear about how R or P Shep would act. You are against those actions because of possible ramifcations of their choices. Which I asked a direct question to you how would the Council handle the Batarian and Krogan examples. And how different would those actions be from  AI Shep. Which you never responded.  Natureguy85 responded to it but refused to answer the last question. How would AI Shep based on his statement in game respond any differently then the Council would.

 

3) They might not, but that is not the primary focus. The question is if one person/entity should have all the power and authority with absolutely no check or balance against it.

No my premise is that the Batarians would take up slave raiding again because their culture is a heavy class system that supports slavery.  That the Krogan particularly under Wrev would restart the Krogan Rebellion again.  My statement is that both of these are wrong and instances that AI Shep could and would step into solve and protect the galactic peace with out any loss of live save the instigator. In this case Krogan and Batarian.   You are the one that said if the Krogan can defeat the galatic community in the case of Control Shep not existing they deserve the spoils of wars. And the ensuing death toll of billions would be fine because that is how conquest works. I am firmly against it.  If control Shep ending was picked this is the very thing It would stop. The very protection the Galaxy would need and receive from it.

 

They both have everything to do with one another. They are both involving a stronger army defeating a weaker one and getting the spoils of war. A statmeent you support. The spoils of war varies depending on what faction you are dealing with. It can be land, money, women, or in the Krogan's case genocide of the Turians for what they did to them. Which your own statement makes clear you support. Again you said that if they won they deserved the spoils of war. In the Reaper's case their spoils are the harvesting.

 

[Quarian Master Race]

You claimed exactly that. But I'll watch you try and back out of it.

Just like he's now trying to back out of saying the only reason the geth lose to the quarians in ME3 is because their ships don't have windows to see out of in space combat. 

He was also arguing that breather masks would be enough to protect you in a vaccum, and that organizations like NASA/RSA/ESA are idiots for developing complex sealed spacesuits Here

I'm still not sure if it's trolling or just incredible levels of stupid, but if It's the former I have to say well done.

[gothpunkboy89]

Just like he's now trying to back out of saying the only reason the geth lose to the quarians in ME3 is because their ships don't have windows to see out of in space combat. 

He was also arguing that breather masks would be enough to protect you in a vaccum, and that organizations like NASA/RSA/ESA are idiots for developing complex sealed spacesuits Here

I'm still not sure if it's trolling or just incredible levels of stupid, but if It's the former I have to say well done.

 

So nice to see the team up effect going on again in this forum.  I love the strength of the inability for anyone with an idea or concept outside of the group to be accepted.

 

I shall ask again what would you define the actions of plant life as. I've already stated that awareness isn't a correct term.

 

https://www.scienced...90622055654.htm

http://news.softpedi...alk-45806.shtml

http://www.livescien...fs-victims.html

 

But please do explain what is going on here.

 

Never claimed they were idiots for sealed space suits. I acknowledged and fully agreed there are other hazards out in space besides vacuum. Space debris, radiation, etc. Only that is was possible though not practical. Thus not having full sealed suits is stupid. Very very stupid. I even went on to admit on planet side the boob armor was equally stupid due to atmospheric issues. Like the Chlorine gas side mission. So very stupid to walk around for any amount of time without a fully sealed suit in an environment like that.

 

Please do try to keep up with what is going on.

Modifié par gothpunkboy89, 16 février 2016 - 10:12 .

[Quarian Master Race]

At the risk of feeding what I'm pretty sure is a troll at this point......

I shall ask again what would you define the actions of plant life as. I've already stated that awareness isn't a correct term.

 

https://www.scienced...90622055654.htm

http://news.softpedi...alk-45806.shtml

http://www.livescien...fs-victims.html

 

But please do explain what is going on here.

Simple evolved stimuli responses, no different from a reflex. Plants aren't sentient or even conscious organisms. They lack entirely the neural architecture that makes subjective perception and response possible. 

Sapience can essentially be summarized as cognitive intelligence that is comparable to that of a modern human (etymologically derived from Hоmo Sapien). If you're going to claim that bananas (which isn't even a plant, but a seed bearing structure of one) are sapient, I'd like to see the civilization they've built, or a reason why they aren't using this vast intelligence to engage in any sort of fitness increasing behavior (such as doing something about those rival sapient evolved apes that keep eating them).

Intelligent bananas........I feel dumber having typed that.

[Monica21]

Intelligent bananas........I feel dumber having typed that.

But throwing them away is equivalent to murder, doncha know?

[themikefest]

Bananas? Hmm. Reminds me of my playthrough where I used bananas, at least in what I did today in ME thread, to defeat the reapers. I might do that again after completing my ME2 playthrough. hahaha

[Quarian Master Race]

But throwing them away is equivalent to murder, doncha know?

unless you are subect to their vicious attacks first. Then it's self defense

[gothpunkboy89]

At the risk of feeding what I'm pretty sure is a troll at this point......

Simple evolved stimuli responses, no different from a reflex. Plants aren't sentient or even conscious organisms. They lack entirely the neural architecture that makes subjective perception and response possible. 

Sapience can essentially be summarized as cognitive intelligence that is comparable to that of a modern human (etymologically derived from Hоmo Sapien). If you're going to claim that bananas (which isn't even a plant, but a seed bearing structure of one) are sapient, I'd like to see the civilization they've built, or a reason why they aren't using this vast intelligence to engage in any sort of fitness increasing behavior (such as doing something about those rival sapient evolved apes that keep eating them).

Intelligent bananas........I feel dumber having typed that.

 

Stimuli responds is still perception even if it is the most basic and simplistic form. An insect starts to eat it. In responds to that stimulation they release a pheromone into the air that attracts another insect that see's a meal and eats that one. Thus the plant protects it's self.

 

That is the point I was trying to get across. Most people I have brought this up to would think a plant being attacked by an insect would just sit there and take it. No way to respond to said insect. Different attackers can invoke different pheromones to attract different predators as needed to protect themselves.

 

If a plant can respond to outside stimulation to defend it's self. Is it much of a stretch to claim in the event of harvesting said plant for food would also elicit a stimuli responds in an attempt to prevent said harvesting?

[gothpunkboy89]

But throwing them away is equivalent to murder, doncha know

 

 

Lakus said:

 

And Reapers are created by murdering millions of organics and pouring them into a Reaper shell.  You think no one in all the thousands of cycles had a problem with that?

 

 

 

My responds was:

 

Doesn't matter what they think. You honestly think that steak you are eating came from a cow who dreamed since they day they were born to be fattened up and then slaughtered so you could have a steak?  Or that bannana who wanted to grow nice and big just to be cut from the tree, transported to a store to sit on display, taken home then left to rot on the counter top before being thrown away?  You really don't understand the hypocrisy of you complaining about what the Reapers do compared to what we do.

 

 

 

Now we know for a fact cows are intelligent creatures. Able to solve problems, display emotions, etc. Now for the sake of argument lets give the humble banana the same set up the cow has. Just for the sake of argument.  Would the banana any more then the cow want to be grown for the singular purpose of one day being ripped off the tree before it's time. Cut into chunks and shipped off to be eaten?

 

forum users like Lakus complain about how the Reapers use each cycle. I rightly point out how we treat our food supplies hold many parallels to how the Reapers treat the species in a cycle.

[Dantriges]

Yeah yeah, after veganism we go more extreme and stop eating plants and please don´t forget the bacteria. They move and react to stimuli.

[gothpunkboy89]

Yeah yeah, after veganism we go more extreme and stop eating plants and please don´t forget the bacteria. They move and react to stimuli.

 

No I'm again drawing parallel to our own actions we take we take with intelligent life if it serves our purpose. Cattle, pigs or chicken/Turkey as the more common mean sources.

 

They can have pretty much ever definition of a being alive as humans can. Minus the obvious intelligence difference.

 

We dictate how they will live and develop. Just like the Reapers do in the ME universe.

 

We alter them to suit our needs at will.Even if it mutates them into forms they were not originally created for. Chickens and turkey's breasts have gotten so large in the past decade that they now have to artificially inseminate almost all females to get them to continue breeding.  French Bulldog's heads are so large all births have to be cesarean because their hips are not able to pass the large head. As one example. Just like the Reapers did to any species they captured, Husks, Marauders, Brues, Banshees.

 

When they reach their apex we kill them without remorse and without questioning them if they would want any part of it. To suit our purpose and our needs. They have no say in the matter. We use our superior intelligence and technology to force them to die because we demand it to happen. We some times even kill simply because we find enjoyment out of the action.  They begin by our will and so end by our will.

 

Just as the Reapers.

 

Part of my theme in this game that people over look. The blatant hypocrisy of advanced intelligent life. They have no problem treating lesser beings one way. But then throw a fit when another greater being treats them the same way.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Yeah yeah, after veganism we go more extreme and stop eating plants and please don´t forget the bacteria. They move and react to stimuli.

 

From now on I'm going to prefix eating a tomato with, "You existed because I allowed it. You end because I demand it."

[LineHolder]

They're useless except as easily replacable, expendable cannon fodder (much like the krogan). The only geth that seems halfway capable in a fight pre-Reaper code is the prototype platform that Legion uses, which is capable of networking enough geth together to think of something other than "zerg the enemy until they run out of bullets or are crushed under the weight of our scrap metal". Apparently, they can't produce these en masse, though, because if they could there'd obviously be no point in continuing with the old models which are less than mindless, vicious animals. Even a pack of animals are capable of overwhelming the armed human hunter, given the numbers, but that doesn't make them superior in any other way to the superior human species.

 

If one were to take ME3-Geth seriously, it's implied that Legion was an agrarian unit that first took up arms against the Quarians (in that mission). Not exactly 'advanced', I guess.

 

 

Between nonsense like this, claiming bananas are sapient (i.e. on a comparable level of intellect to humans), arguing that all you need to survive in a vaccum is your naked skin and a breather mask with no air tank attached to it, and the general verbal diarrhea you spew with every single post, I'm beginning to think you're literally retarded. Now I feel bad for argumentatively bludgeoning a disabled person. Operating a personal computer must be a huge achievement for you.

Please be quick with your response. This is a comedic goldmine.

 

That's harsh, Admiral.

[Dantriges]

Part of my theme in this game that people over look. The blatant hypocrisy of advanced intelligent life. They have no problem treating lesser beings one way. But then throw a fit when another greater being treats them the same way.

 

Your theme in the game? Hm yeah.

I don´t go about potential differences between animals and advanced intelligent life. First it´s rather pointless as I am pretty sure that you just answer with the same stuff again which you already posted multiple times. And well, animal rights are a topic debated today. Or even an ancient one, considering the amount of words religions like Zoroastrianism spent on the issue of treating your cattle respectfully and well other religions today.

 

Ok let´s start.

The species in game weren´t throwing a hissy fit or arguing morals with Reapers much, they were shooting them. not with much success but this wasn´t a philosophy debate.

I don´t expect more technologically advanced synthetic species to be saints, but at some point ask yourself, "is there a point in trating other beings like crap?" Especially if you are not competing with organics much.

Just because you think really fast, doesn´t mean that you think smart. It could also mean that you can whip out stupidity at an astonishing rate.

Hard sell that you are a superior species in the Reaper case when countless trillions of organics developed and a fleet of clever monkeys + friends delivered the solution you were looking for and in the end you are dependant on a stupid monkey to achieve your goals. 

 

The Reapers actively blocked the development of a solution millions of years ago and acted all smug about their idea. We don´t even know if this ascension thing is actually an improvement or something they indoctrinate themselves with to endure their horrible existence. We don´t know, it´s never shown.

This whole "we harvest advanced species, so others can grow" is just smoke and mirrors (or the writers not thinking stuff through). The second this cycle proved ready, the catalyst was ok with throwing all this potential species and the preserved ones under the bus.

Besides the Crucible there are many other possibilities to be explored to solve the problem if it actually exists. The catalyst might be the greatest scientist ever but it never bothered to show the data.

The whole organic-synthetic thing isn´t a matter of science, it´s a matter of faith, with the catalyst quoting the bible book of Leviathan. And lo and behold, at the dawn of time, there was great chaos in the ranks of Israel the galaxy and the elder kings formed a prophet out of their own mind so he could wander the breadth of the world galaxy to find a revelation and bring us the 10 commandments a crappy solution that doesn´t solve the problem.  

 

At some point you aren´t a greater species anymore, thinking great thoughts the ants don´t understand, you are just some arrogant jerk full of hubris.

[Monica21]

No I'm again drawing parallel to our own actions we take we take with intelligent life if it serves our purpose. Cattle, pigs or chicken/Turkey as the more common mean sources.

 

They can have pretty much ever definition of a being alive as humans can. Minus the obvious intelligence difference.

 

We dictate how they will live and develop. Just like the Reapers do in the ME universe.

 

We alter them to suit our needs at will.Even if it mutates them into forms they were not originally created for. Chickens and turkey's breasts have gotten so large in the past decade that they now have to artificially inseminate almost all females to get them to continue breeding.  French Bulldog's heads are so large all births have to be cesarean because their hips are not able to pass the large head. As one example. Just like the Reapers did to any species they captured, Husks, Marauders, Brues, Banshees.

 

When they reach their apex we kill them without remorse and without questioning them if they would want any part of it. To suit our purpose and our needs. They have no say in the matter. We use our superior intelligence and technology to force them to die because we demand it to happen. We some times even kill simply because we find enjoyment out of the action.  They begin by our will and so end by our will.

 

Just as the Reapers.

 

Part of my theme in this game that people over look. The blatant hypocrisy of advanced intelligent life. They have no problem treating lesser beings one way. But then throw a fit when another greater being treats them the same way.

 

 

The day chickens and turkeys and bananas start fighting back is the day I'll start questioning why I'm eating them. They're not doing any of that, and I can make a pretty good argument that none of the above truly understand what's happening to them when they're led to slaughter and/or pulled from a tree. And I'm not sure what your point is except to say, oh hey, we treat other species the same way the Reapers treat organic life. And that's just not true.

 

Every technologically advanced life form is fighting against the Reapers. The Reapers are well aware that organics do not want to be harvested. And not just that, but humans are not out to exterminate chickens. We use them for our purposes, but we're also at the top of the food chain. If there is such a thing as a Reaper, it's higher up on the food chain than humans. 

 

Your argument has some weight if you want humanity to consider what we're doing to the world we live in, but there is no direct correlation between humans and Reapers.

 

Is anyone really throwing a hissy fit over the morality of what the Reapers are doing? I've never been concerned with the morality of the Reapers, I just want to kill them and stop the harvest. They're programmed to harvest, so I don't care about having philosophical arguments with Harbinger about whether humans and other organics deserve to live.