2565 réponses à ce sujet

[gothpunkboy89]

The day chickens and turkeys and bananas start fighting back is the day I'll start questioning why I'm eating them. They're not doing any of that, and I can make a pretty good argument that none of the above truly understand what's happening to them when they're led to slaughter and/or pulled from a tree. And I'm not sure what your point is except to say, oh hey, we treat other species the same way the Reapers treat organic life. And that's just not true.

 

Every technologically advanced life form is fighting against the Reapers. The Reapers are well aware that organics do not want to be harvested. And not just that, but humans are not out to exterminate chickens. We use them for our purposes, but we're also at the top of the food chain. If there is such a thing as a Reaper, it's higher up on the food chain than humans. 

 

Your argument has some weight if you want humanity to consider what we're doing to the world we live in, but there is no direct correlation between humans and Reapers.

 

Is anyone really throwing a hissy fit over the morality of what the Reapers are doing? I've never been concerned with the morality of the Reapers, I just want to kill them and stop the harvest. They're programmed to harvest, so I don't care about having philosophical arguments with Harbinger about whether humans and other organics deserve to live.

 

 

Thank you for further supporting my claim about the hypocicy of advanced life.

 

The day chickens and turkeys and bananas start fighting back is the day I'll start questioning why I'm eating them.

 

Ok. Why does it just have to be fighting back when your next sentence states:

 

I can make a pretty good argument that none of the above truly understand what's happening to them when they're led to slaughter and/or pulled from a tree.

I'm not even going to start in on the logic you are using here of if they don't under stand what is going on then it is ok. Because that can be used to justify a lot of bad bad things.

 

The Reapers are well aware that organics do not want to be harvested.

So you are saying cows, pigs, chickens, horses, etc want to die?  Damn that's some very dark stuff there. Either that or animals are just super super emo.

 

We use them for our purposes, but we're also at the top of the food chain.

So are the Reapers.  What we are to a cow. Is what the Reapers are to us. If that makes sense. Never did pay much attention to stuff like that in school.  Anyways the Reapers have a purpose for us. They are smarter, stronger and faster then us. Just like we are smarter and faster then Mr and Mrs. Cow. Though they have killed their fair share of people.

 

but there is no direct correlation between humans and Reapers.

But there is.  More then one I've already listed them. We dictate how animals develop. Both food sources and pets. This extends even to plants as many of the plant we know how were crafted by humans though selective breeding.  Corn as we know it has never existed naturally in the wild. And indeed is incapable of existing in the wild on it's own.  Chickens, Cows, pigs, turkeys have been altered though selective breeding over countless generations  to increase meat yields. Even if it altered them so badly they are now incapable of reproduction on their own.  Dogs or cats aren't much better. Ever hear of a munchkin cat?  It is a normal cat only they are breed so they have very stubby legs. Cat version of a Dachshund is good visual. The Dachshund is another great example that long slender body puts enormous strain on their spine.

 

These alteration are done to suit our needs or simply because we think it looks cute. No one could look at any of the Reaper Forces you face in game and go. Yep totally what was needed to be done to them.

 

Is anyone really throwing a hissy fit over the morality of what the Reapers are doing?

There have been a few. But this isn't about morality. This is about action the Reapers take and how it echos our own. How advanced life can dish it out but can't take it.

 

They're programmed to harvest,

We are programmed to kill. How do you think we got to the top of the food chain? We had a lot of competition and we murdered them all into submission.  Hell we still kill each other at the drop of a hat. Florida a few years back at a 7 11 an older man was parked next to a car filled with teens. He actually got a gun out and shot at them killing one because he thought the music was to loud.

 

I just want to kill them and stop the harvest.

I think Mr and Mrs Cow would agree.  So would Mr Frog

https://www.youtube.co*/watch?v=uyCjOkpqqzE

 

Seriously don't watch video if you don't have a strong stomach. Replace * with m.

 

 

 

Just to let you know I'm not some hardcore vegetarian or vegan. In fact I really can't stand many fruits or veggies. But I love meat.  Nice 10 oz ribeye with some mash potatoes in gravy.  How ever I can see the connections between Reapers actions and our own and not complain about them because that would be hypocritical.

 

The Reapers harvest each cycle to not only protect it from it's self. Claiming it is for the greater good. Which numerous actions both to animals and humans have been done using that logic which really might not be. We are also a resource to the Reapers. In every sense of the word we are the materials needed to create another full Reaper. Or to put it a more blunt way our death is needed for them to reproduce.

 

When you destroy them you kill them because you don't like their actions nor their reasons. Do you really think if a cow was given the same intelligence and ability to communicate as a human they would agree 100% that they should die?

[Natureguy85]

 Of course you don't. Because it would mean you would be forced to admit I am correct. The surprise attack from the rear was the turning point of the fight. The Council knew that Saren was going to attack. They posted ships at every relay that lead directly to the Citadel. The Geth fleet reached the Citadel and attack the awaking Citadel Fleet. Sovergin didn't even participate in the fight so we could scratch off the obvious Reaper advantage. The ships it destroyed were incidental that had the unfortunate fact of being in it's way as it barreled into to the closing Citadel.

 

blah blah blah

 

 

So when I make the statement that suprise attacks are extremely useful it isn't a lie. When I use it specifically in reference to an event in game that you can actually watch happen. It isn't a lie. When people try to counter what I claim even though my claim is backed up by video evidence because it would go against what they want to have happened rather then what really happened. Well I'm sure you can figure that out.

 

 

You would have to actually be correct for that to be an issue. Nobody disagreed that surprise attacks are effective. I disagreed with your claim that surprise is the only reason the Alliance beat the Geth.

[Natureguy85]

Didn't see any dialogue that stated that their emotional responds to the Genophage was them acting like normal.  Just that seeing all the dead babies that they were not accustom to compared to what it was like Pre Nuclear Winter on Tuchunka made them lose hope in their future.  But is is an great over all example. Krogans killed more being then Geth ever did. For their actions they were punished true enough. But the Geth were the only ones that would be completely wiped out or lobotomized into mindless servants. Pretty clear difference in how the Galaxy handled an Organic species running amok and a synthetic species running amok.

 

 

Wrex will talk about it in the first game. The Krogans naturally want to go out and fight. So a lot of them are dying instead of breeding. With the genophage, this is continuing their decline. What response were you talking about.

 

Also, what is your point about how the galaxy treats Synthetics differently? What does that have to do with Synthetics destroying Organics?

 

 

 

 

Yes eventually. You and others seem to take the short term view to defend long term effects. But lets follow this logic. Geth are destroyed. Synthetics are no longer a threat. Are you now claiming with 100% certainty that no one in the entire Milky Way Galaxy will ever continue to advance technology or never from now until the universe dies? That there is no way another synthetic race could develop? That if they did in fact develop they could only possibility act exactly like the Geth do. No matter how many or how often they are created they will always be personality wise for lack of better term simply be Geth 2.0, Geth 3.0 and so on?

 

 

 

Don't try and flip the absolutism onto me. That's all yours and the Catalyst's. I never said that can't or won't happen. It's unknown and therefore does not justify the extinction of the advanced species of the galaxy. It may happen but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. This isn't up to the Catalyst to decide.

 

 

 

 

 

Quarians did not surpass the Geth. They exploited a flaw in their radar system. This rendered all their ships blind. Unable to see the Quarians Ships attacking they couldn't properly defend themselves.  Had they had windows on their ships this would be a problem. But they don't use windows.

 

They exploited that weakness through technology and the Geth were unprepared for it and unable to overcome it on their own. You'd need a lot more than windows. The ships firing at the Geth weren't even in line of sight, let alone visible. You need a firing solution which would require a lot of math to get the shells to wrap around the sun properly.

 

 

 

 

Rachni were exterminated because there was no way to subdue them. Cause you know they were kind of driven mad. Now would Geth need to be completely wiped out to get them to stop fighting is debatable. But if given the option to be banished to some dark unused portion of the galaxy. Told they can't have any weapons and would be under complete guard of the Council Fleets. I'm fairly certain they would accept that.

 

The Rachni were exterminated because the Krogans were blood thirsty and like fighting and killing. The galaxy didn't know at the time that the Rachni were driven by anything so that's an argument after the fact. You couldn't know, based on what was known then, that the Rachni wouldn't have learned their lesson and stayed home had the Krogan withdrawn

 

No, the Geth would not willingly disarm and go away.

 

1) They've had that option all along yet haven't done it.

 

2) They don't trust Organics to not then come kill them, which some would want to do.

 

 

 

 

They are all equally valuable.  Lose one species but gain another.  If all are treated as equals then it is a 0 sum gain. As in back to square 1 each time. Reapers remove 6 advanced species from the galaxy. Then 6 species develop in their place.  Those species that would have never evolved because of interference from previous species is what makes up for the loss of all the unborn.  It doesn't have to be justifiable. Evolution is a very fickle thing the simple introduction of an advance species to a planet would be enough to alter it. Even if they didn't attempt direct interference like the Protheans with the Asari. And what the Slarians were doing. Well everyone must hate the Salarian's guts huh?

 

You don't know that it's -6+6. It could be -6+15, or +3 and one grows stronger and kills off the other two. Javik explains in ME3 that the Protheans conquered and absorbed other species into their empire.

 

However, let's just say it is a zero sum gain. Then what is the point? There is no value in letting the next group ascend and no reason to clear the current group.

 

As to the Salarians, did you miss all the dialogue questioning if their interference was a good idea or even flat out stating it was wrong? That is a serious moral question for people in this universe and it is addressed. Star Trek does it too with the Prime Directive.

 

 

 

Yes short term is the key here. Arguing with the AI and how it's logic is flawed is a lot like a 5 year old telling a 40 year rocket scientist that he is wrong about there not being any air in space because Jimmy Neutron could breath in space. Remember the AI didn't create the Reapers as soon as it woke up. It's entire purpose was to protect organic life at all cost by the catalyst between the two. An act it attempted to fore fill and bring peace between them time and time again. And time and time again it failed. It learned the trend that developed and took steps to ensure it protected organic life from it's self. The Reapers and the Cycle. Watched and learned as each new cycle created a repeating pattern of life and development. Only finally changing it's mind about it's choice when the current game cycle alters the variables and opens up new paths to be followed.

 

Or lets put this another way. The AI is a scientist who has been conducting thousands of experiments that proof his hypothesis true. You do the experiment once get you a result that says it's hypothesis is incorrect. You then completely disregard the thousands of tests and declare all the thousands of experiments he did as false. Because your 1 test contradicted the thousands of tests he did. Ignoring that in any experiment there are always variables that can result in false positives and false negatives. Hence why hospitals will due multiple tests to ensure their result isn't a false positive or negative.

 

In any legitimate scientific community your claim that 1 test negates the thousands of tests the other scientist did would get you laugh at by everyone.

 

 

This is an argument from authority. You're believing that rocket scientist not because he has shown his data and explained how that led to his conclusion, but because he is wearing a white coat, has a name-tag that says "rokkit sientist," and says "Trust me."

 

The new data does not negate all of the previous data, but the conclusion must be rethought to incorporate the new data unless some other reason for the change is found.

 

 

 

 

There is an argument to be had that given the time the Geth could have closed the exploit in their radar system. But you are right without interference from Reapers or Shep in this instance the Quarians would have been just as guilty of Genocide or War crimes as the Geth would have been if they killed everyone during Morning War.

 

Only if you give the Geth or Synthetics generally the same value as Organic species. The game certainly was taking that view, but not all players or Shepards do.

 

 

 

How does that contradict what I said? They felt their very existence was on the line and took the offer presented to them. Not realizing the amount of control they would enforce on the Geth. Well beyond what Sovereign did to the Heretics. On this specific topic upgrades and the effect on the Geth are irrelevant. People complain about their reasoning for going with the Reapers. When it is very sound logic for a group that is being slowly wiped out by another to take any life line given to them. Coming to regret it only after the fact. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

I'm going to make a 3rd and final try: I am not talking about the Geth taking the Reapers' help to fight the Quarians. I am talking about Legion wanting to keep and spread his Reaper upgrades to evolve the Geth into individuals. This is after the Rannoch Reaper is dead.

 

 

 

It doesn't violate any of the themes of the series. Tell me what themes would it violate? As for control the Reapers being controlled by a single man yes. But control Shep ascends beyond a mere man when he integrates with the Reaper consciousness.

 

 

It violates the core themes of the series: Strength through Diversity and Self-Determination, as I phrase them. Shepard, one man (or woman), is going to change the fundamental nature of life in the entire galaxy entirely on his own with no input from anyone else except the Reaper Brain.

 

 

As for Control, so what? By what special wisdom is this new entitity making those decisions? Why is it any less fallible and flawed than Shepard or the Catalyst?

 

 

Any code can be isolated it is how programming works. You can create your own programming code from scratch if you wanted to. We humans have used different codes for programming.  C which then evolved into C++. If you have something that effects C++ (Reapers) then it will also effect the older version C (all non direct Reaper tech). The fact is also effects synthetics would mean every star ship, hospital, power planet you name it should also be effected. Which means it would be the most destructive option as billions would be killed indirectly from it. From the millions in ships to millions reliant on hospitals to be kept alive. To millions killed when fusion plants are unable to contain the chain reaction.

 

So if you ever question the ending of the others remember that destroy purposefully glosses and willfully ignores the fact that destroying the Reapers would cause billions of deaths in return. Not just the happy kill only Reapers and maybe sadly EDI and the Geth die to.

 

That makes sense and is one way it could work, but isn't a necessity. The Crucible could pretty much work however the writers want it to, including destroying only the Reapers. If your explanation is correct, the game should have brought that up. They certainly brought up a lot from previous games as if you didn't know, likely to keep new players in the loop.

[gothpunkboy89]

Your theme in the game? Hm yeah.

I don´t go about potential differences between animals and advanced intelligent life. First it´s rather pointless as I am pretty sure that you just answer with the same stuff again which you already posted multiple times. And well, animal rights are a topic debated today. Or even an ancient one, considering the amount of words religions like Zoroastrianism spent on the issue of treating your cattle respectfully and well other religions today.

 

How it is treated and how Reapers parallel our own actions show all that is needed to be shown.

 

The species in game weren´t throwing a hissy fit or arguing morals with Reapers much, they were shooting them. not with much success but this wasn´t a philosophy debate.

Shooting a gun at superman and swearing while he walks towards you and just standing still while swearing really amount to the same thing.

 

I don´t expect more technologically advanced synthetic species to be saints, but at some point ask yourself, "is there a point in trating other beings like crap?" Especially if you are not competing with organics much.

And what about organics treating other organics like crap? Or organics treating synthetics like crap? There are plentiful examples in game that show equal amounts to all variations.

 

Just because you think really fast, doesn´t mean that you think smart. It could also mean that you can whip out stupidity at an astonishing rate.

Hard sell that you are a superior species in the Reaper case when countless trillions of organics developed and a fleet of clever monkeys + friends delivered the solution you were looking for and in the end you are dependant on a stupid monkey to achieve your goals.

Your argument is based on they might be stupid?  Isn't that following the same logic path I use when I state that an issue could happen between Organic and synthetic at some point in time?  Which other forum users have said basing it on a might or could happen really isn't that valid a reason.  So why is my maybe not valid but your maybe is valid?

 

So your secondary argument is because the AI isn't omniscient then it is automatically wrong on all accounts? Because the assorted races of the galaxy past and present altered the variables and thus the AI responded to said alter variables by offering up new paths to be taken. None of which involve the cycles continuing unless you choose to ignore the choices. This kind of contradicts your earlier statement of they might be stupid. Because every actions seems rather logical to me. Tries to create peace between Organic and synthetic. Fails time and time again. Comes up with alternative solution to protect organic life in the form of the Reapers. At various times it tries out alternate solutions which all fail. Leaving the Reapers as only working solution.  During the events of ME3 it is shown the Reaper solution is starting to fail as well. The introduction of the Crucible and Shepard it readily offers up the new paths that were opened to it in an attempt to solve the problem.

 

The Reapers actively blocked the development of a solution millions of years ago and acted all smug about their idea. We don´t even know if this ascension thing is actually an improvement or something they indoctrinate themselves with to endure their horrible existence. We don´t know, it´s never shown.

 

They had no idea what the catalyst would ultimately do. The galaxy had no idea what the catalyst would ultimately do. To the galaxy at large it was a weapon to kill Reapers. To the Reapers it was a possible tool to resist them that needs to be destroyed. Remember this is the very first time the plans were ever finished and actually implemented.  Your statement is based on a grand assumption that is never shown. Yet you demand it be shown how becoming a Reaper is an improvement.

 

Hypocrisy much?

 

This whole "we harvest advanced species, so others can grow" is just smoke and mirrors (or the writers not thinking stuff through). The second this cycle proved ready, the catalyst was ok with throwing all this potential species and the preserved ones under the bus.

Yet this is confirmed in game. The Reapers harvested the Leviathan's time and life still exists. Inusannon was harvested which the Protheans rose after the Protheans came the species of this cycle. It is only smoke and mirrors if you choose to ignore what is clearly shown in game.

 

Besides the Crucible there are many other possibilities to be explored to solve the problem if it actually exists. The catalyst might be the greatest scientist ever but it never bothered to show the data.

How?

 

The whole organic-synthetic thing isn´t a matter of science, it´s a matter of faith, with the catalyst quoting the bible book of Leviathan. And lo and behold, at the dawn of time, there was great chaos in the ranks of Israel the galaxy and the elder kings formed a prophet out of their own mind so he could wander the breadth of the world galaxy to find a revelation and bring us the 10 commandments a crappy solution that doesn´t solve the problem.

 

It is a matter of science.  AI's are able to process information much faster then we can. EDI best shows the full capability of AI's in action. Not only fighting down on the ground but controlling nearly all the Normandy's systems and hacking into enemy computer networks.  No single organic being not even a Salarian could multi task that.  Now picture dozens if not hundreds of EDI all working together to advance themselves and their knowledge. In a hundred years they could advance more then the rest of the galactic civilization did in 500.   The threat is real. The AI was created because the threat caused death. The AI tried to solve the problem but failed.

 

Your logic is biased on faith. You declare the 1 example negates the entire experience of the AI. You act like all synthetics will follow in the path of the Geth. That is faith.

 

At some point you aren´t a greater species anymore, thinking great thoughts the ants don´t understand, you are just some arrogant jerk full of hubris.

Which neatly sums up about 90% of human history. Particularly sums up almost every major religion.  As almost ever major and even minor religion generally has a centeral figure of worship who's logic is beyond our understanding.

 

Hey did you know up until around he 1970's It was perfectly legal for the US government to go into Native American family and take children away from the parents? Regardless of how good or bad the parents actually were? Similar laws existed in Australia. I wonder what this says about humanity.

Modifié par gothpunkboy89, 17 février 2016 - 04:14 .

[gothpunkboy89]

Wrex will talk about it in the first game. The Krogans naturally want to go out and fight. So a lot of them are dying instead of breeding. With the genophage, this is continuing their decline. What response were you talking about.

 

Also, what is your point about how the galaxy treats Synthetics differently? What does that have to do with Synthetics destroying Organics?

They are natural fighters. The Genophage broke their hope how ever. That is the unexpected responds from it. They didn't see a future and didn't see any hope so they stopped caring and simply went out to do what they enjoy most. Fighting. That is what Wrex and even Wrev does in ME2 and 3. Gives the Krogan hope for the future. Now of course which hope is dictated by who is leading.

 

It has everything to do with it. It shows a very uneven approach to conflict resolution between the two sides.

 

Don't try and flip the absolutism onto me. That's all yours and the Catalyst's. I never said that can't or won't happen. It's unknown and therefore does not justify the extinction of the advanced species of the galaxy. It may happen but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. This isn't up to the Catalyst to decide.

 

It is known the AI exists because it. The AI created the Reapers as the alternate solution because of it. The AI offered you the new paths to take to solve the issue because of it. You are declaring everything it has experienced and learned. The very reason it exists as incorrect. You need a hell of an argument to back that claim up.

 

They exploited that weakness through technology and the Geth were unprepared for it and unable to overcome it on their own. You'd need a lot more than windows. The ships firing at the Geth weren't even in line of sight, let alone visible. You need a firing solution which would require a lot of math to get the shells to wrap around the sun properly.

 

Because they were kind of getting shot at and had their intelligence take a significant hit when the Dyson Sphere was destroyed. Had the Quarians stuck then backed off for a year they would have fixed that exploit. Much like in instance with computers someone finds and exploit in a program and developers will release updates to close said exploit.  What they didn't have was time.

 

The Rachni were exterminated because the Krogans were blood thirsty and like fighting and killing. The galaxy didn't know at the time that the Rachni were driven by anything so that's an argument after the fact. You couldn't know, based on what was known then, that the Rachni wouldn't have learned their lesson and stayed home had the Krogan withdrawn

You missed the point I made. The Rachnii couldn't be reasoned with. So when the Krogan were poised to send them into extinction no one spoke up against it. Allowing them to slaughter them all into oblivion.  They couldn't be reasoned with we find out later is because they were driven mad. Had they not been driven mad and could be reasoned with the ending would have been similar to what happened to the Krogan.

 

No, the Geth would not willingly disarm and go away.

 

1) They've had that option all along yet haven't done it.

 

2) They don't trust Organics to not then come kill them, which some would want to do.

 

They can't go away. Please tell how the Geth could go away but simply haven't take that option yet? Like wise if they don't trust organics enough to make a deal with them to go to some unused section of the galaxy without needing a second war with Quarians or a first war with the Council after the Morning War. Your theory about the Reaper's claiming AI and Organic can't leave peacefully being wrong starts to develop issues.

 

You don't know that it's -6+6. It could be -6+15, or +3 and one grows stronger and kills off the other two. Javik explains in ME3 that the Protheans conquered and absorbed other species into their empire.

 

However, let's just say it is a zero sum gain. Then what is the point? There is no value in letting the next group ascend and no reason to clear the current group.

 

As to the Salarians, did you miss all the dialogue questioning if their interference was a good idea or even flat out stating it was wrong? That is a serious moral question for people in this universe and it is addressed. Star Trek does it too with the Prime Directive.

Protheans really don't matter I used them because they are the only one of like 2 maybe 3 species that are known to exist in that time.  No doubt there are some cycles that have more races that are harvested then other. Then there are also cycles that would inevitably have less races harvested then previous. They question and then you get to the STG base and read those handy little terminals.

 

This is an argument from authority. You're believing that rocket scientist not because he has shown his data and explained how that led to his conclusion, but because he is wearing a white coat, has a name-tag that says "rokkit sientist," and says "Trust me."

 

The new data does not negate all of the previous data, but the conclusion must be rethought to incorporate the new data unless some other reason for the change is found.

 

The AI is backed up by the Leviathan's own words. That countless thrall races were wiped out by synthetic life. That they created the AI with the attempt to solve that problem. You have an independent source confirming the AI's statement. The Leviathans even admit it is still serving their purpose. Though obviously not in the way they originally wanted.

 

The AI did come to a new conclusion based on new data. The entire reason it gives you the 3 choices is because the galaxy altered the variables and it's solution is no longer working.

 

Only if you give the Geth or Synthetics generally the same value as Organic species. The game certainly was taking that view, but not all players or Shepards do

.Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

 

It's definition is very independent of values. War crime is more directed towards turning a race of intelligent being into mindless slaves to serve you. Which would fall into the Quarian winning side of the argument.

[gothpunkboy89]

I'm going to make a 3rd and final try: I am not talking about the Geth taking the Reapers' help to fight the Quarians. I am talking about Legion wanting to keep and spread his Reaper upgrades to evolve the Geth into individuals. This is after the Rannoch Reaper is dead.

 

 

So immediately after fighting a war were their reliance on networking programs together to be intelligent creates a very large handicap for them when thousands of programs are destroyed. Not to mention they would soon be engaging more Reapers in combat. And thus would want to maximize the Geth's chance for survival by eliminating a very important weakness and render them immune to Reaper's attempting to gain control of them contradicts what exactly?

 

It violates the core themes of the series: Strength through Diversity and Self-Determination, as I phrase them. Shepard, one man (or woman), is going to change the fundamental nature of life in the entire galaxy entirely on his own with no input from anyone else except the Reaper Brain.

 

 

As for Control, so what? By what special wisdom is this new entitity making those decisions? Why is it any less fallible and flawed than Shepard or the Catalyst?

 

 

And yet Shep can be a racist A hole and still win.  People who make important decisions are always alone in their choices. What proof do you have that the various leaders of their races would be able to come to a better conclusion then Shep alone? When it was Shepard who is the one that united the races. Shepard is the one that did everything made all the decisions that led to this. Without Shepard the galaxy would have ended with a whimper. Each race more willing to protect themselves then worth together. Of all the people that exist in the galaxy at the point of the choice only Shepard has earned the right to make any choice.

 

Well let me ask you this by what logic do you have to display that Control Shep would fall short?

 

That makes sense and is one way it could work, but isn't a necessity. The Crucible could pretty much work however the writers want it to, including destroying only the Reapers. If your explanation is correct, the game should have brought that up. They certainly brought up a lot from previous games as if you didn't know, likely to keep new players in the loop.

 

Which is why I point out that regardless of which ending you pick the way it happens be it control, synthesis or destroy are all equally silly. In this case how is less important then what happens.

[Monica21]

So you are saying cows, pigs, chickens, horses, etc want to die?  Damn that's some very dark stuff there. Either that or animals are just super super emo.

I like to watch the eagle cam at the Pennsylvania Game Commission. It's streaming video of an eagle's nest. At least a few times a day they bring back food and tear it up and eat it right in the nest. Because, you know, eagles have to eat, much like humans. So, I mean, if you want to claim that cute little bunnies are emo and want to die, that's certainly up to you, but the truth is that the eagles have to eat, so they eat. That's how life works.
 

We are programmed to kill. How do you think we got to the top of the food chain? We had a lot of competition and we murdered them all into submission.

Dude, I'm really not going to explain to you what murder is one more time.

[gothpunkboy89]

I like to watch the eagle cam at the Pennsylvania Game Commission. It's streaming video of an eagle's nest. At least a few times a day they bring back food and tear it up and eat it right in the nest. Because, you know, eagles have to eat, much like humans. So, I mean, if you want to claim that cute little bunnies are emo and want to die, that's certainly up to you, but the truth is that the eagles have to eat, so they eat. That's how life works.
 

Dude, I'm really not going to explain to you what murder is one more time.

 

Eagle don't farm their food. They hunt for it.  Never seen an eagle engaging in mass squirrel farming.

 

So we managed to survive in a world full of predators by what? Tickling them? Painting them pictures? Favors of an adult nature?

[Monica21]

Eagle don't farm their food. They hunt for it.  Never seen an eagle engaging in mass squirrel farming.

That's just because we're more efficient than they are.
 

So we managed to survive in a world full of predators by what? Tickling them? Painting them pictures? Favors of an adult nature?

Surviving in a world full of predators is not "murdering" them. Are you sure you're not in a commune in the backwoods of Oregon or something? Living on lemon grass but making sure you tell it you're sorry before you eat it?

[gothpunkboy89]

That's just because we're more efficient than they are.
 

Surviving in a world full of predators is not "murdering" them. Are you sure you're not in a commune in the backwoods of Oregon or something? Living on lemon grass but making sure you tell it you're sorry before you eat it?

 

efficiency was kind of the point.

 

If you are looked at as food by half the animal population how do you keep from becoming a meal yourself?

[Monica21]

efficiency was kind of the point.

So?
 

If you are looked at as food by half the animal population how do you keep from becoming a meal yourself?

Who is looking at humans as food?

[Dantriges]

How it is treated and how Reapers parallel our own actions show all that is needed to be shown.

Shooting a gun at superman and swearing while he walks towards you and just standing still while swearing really amount to the same thing.

I meant: No one talked morals with the Reapers, everyone was busy shooting them. The effectiveness of these measure isn´t relevant when we are taking about how the galactics responded
 

And what about organics treating other organics like crap? Or organics treating synthetics like crap? There are plentiful examples in game that show equal amounts to all variations.

All my friends are doing it, mom.
Son you are a higher being. Do you jump off a cliff, because the lemmings do?
 

Your argument is based on they might be stupid? Isn't that following the same logic path I use when I state that an issue could happen between Organic and synthetic at some point in time? Which other forum users have said basing it on a might or could happen really isn't that valid a reason. So why is my maybe not valid but your maybe is valid?

I mentioned that the speed of thinking doesn´t necessarily equate to the quality of reasoning

Yeah there might an issue happen between organics and synthetics somewhere between some unspecified organics and synthetics at some point in the future. It also could rain somewhere on this planet at some time in the future.

I am a higher being of pure thought, connected to the collective intelligence of my species. My opinion is more valid because I say so.
 

So your secondary argument is because the AI isn't omniscient then it is automatically wrong on all accounts? Because the assorted races of the galaxy past and present altered the variables and thus the AI responded to said alter variables by offering up new paths to be taken. None of which involve the cycles continuing unless you choose to ignore the choices. This kind of contradicts your earlier statement of they might be stupid. Because every actions seems rather logical to me. Tries to create peace between Organic and synthetic. Fails time and time again. Comes up with alternative solution to protect organic life in the form of the Reapers. At various times it tries out alternate solutions which all fail. Leaving the Reapers as only working solution. During the events of ME3 it is shown the Reaper solution is starting to fail as well. The introduction of the Crucible and Shepard it readily offers up the new paths that were opened to it in an attempt to solve the problem.

The Catalyst explained to Shep that the Crucible isn´t much more than a power source. The Crucible was built over a crapton of cycles. In the last cycle indoctrinated agents sabotaged the project.
So the AI that collected the knowledge of all species it harvested, watched the organics try and try again to build this damn thing and it never got its finger on the plans even when it had agents inside the project or in the mop up phase, where you remove stuff you don´t want lying around, when you have agents already in place?
That´s basic intel gathering failure.

Your last sentences a can be read as: The super AI failed at everything it did until the monkey came along.

Oh and let´s not forget, If the monkey refuses to play, it goes back to the failed solution. No "oh gee, my solution doesn´t work anymore, the variables are altered and the monkey doesn´t pick something. Perhaps I should use my vast superior intellect, these altered vairables and the odd thing and cook up another solution."

 

I can get a supposedly superior being that torches the galaxy because it thinks it´s necessary and you have to break some eggs to make an omelet and the ants don´t understand it anyways. But now we are at a point where the whole endeavor is pointless. Why do it? You´ve got something better to do, like find another solution without your pet monkey and not risk these vast storehouses of precious data (some of them get blown up in the battle after all) because you have nothing better to do right at the moment. The Catalyst didn´t say that it found out that the harvest is only the second best option and if you don´t pick, it goes with second best, it said, it´s not working anymore.

In short, I don´t expect the Catalyst to be omniscient, I expect it to be competent in its own areas of expertise.
 

They had no idea what the catalyst would ultimately do. The galaxy had no idea what the catalyst would ultimately do. To the galaxy at large it was a weapon to kill Reapers. To the Reapers it was a possible tool to resist them that needs to be destroyed. Remember this is the very first time the plans were ever finished and actually implemented. Your statement is based on a grand assumption that is never shown. Yet you demand it be shown how becoming a Reaper is an improvement.

Hypocrisy much?

If the Crucible is a potential tool to destroy them and warrants capturing and repositioning the Citadel as soon as it heard from it, why did it never investigate? It´s not like there isn´t enough time after a harvest to pick the bones clean or gather your indoctrinated puppies to find out if someone knew what was going on. Every cycle who worked on it, managed to get a set of blueprints somehow but the Catalyst who was aware of the project for several cycles never managed to get a copy, even after he gobbled everything up? Ok, it´s a very secret project and hard to find but somehow all previous attempts were thwarted. Something happened and they stopped and there´s no trace left. Where are all these previous Crucibles? Did they all got depressed and blew them up? No attempt to hide an unfinished one for the next cycle? Did the Reapers blow them up into dust with all hands on board and no attempts at salvaging data or harvesting people were made?
 

Yet this is confirmed in game. The Reapers harvested the Leviathan's time and life still exists. Inusannon was harvested which the Protheans rose after the Protheans came the species of this cycle. It is only smoke and mirrors if you choose to ignore what is clearly shown in game.

Don´t look to the past, but the future. My point was, all these preserving actions became moot when it handed Shep the trigger, all future species will have to compete with the current ones, if it´s destroyed, instead of getting their time.
 

How?

You don´t need to use the Crucible to destroy or control the Reapers as long as the catalyst is willing to go along with it.
 

It is a matter of science. AI's are able to process information much faster then we can. EDI best shows the full capability of AI's in action. Not only fighting down on the ground but controlling nearly all the Normandy's systems and hacking into enemy computer networks. No single organic being not even a Salarian could multi task that. Now picture dozens if not hundreds of EDI all working together to advance themselves and their knowledge. In a hundred years they could advance more then the rest of the galactic civilization did in 500. The threat is real. The AI was created because the threat caused death. The AI tried to solve the problem but failed.

Your logic is biased on faith. You declare the 1 example negates the entire experience of the AI. You act like all synthetics will follow in the path of the Geth. That is faith.

Serious question. Considering your speed in responding, do you have some kind of huge document on your system and just copy/paste sentences based on certain keywords not looking with whom you debate? IIRC that was the stuff you were talking about with Nature Guy.
My stance on the issue is: The Catalyst only tells us its conclusion, with nothing to back it up. There is no sharing of raw data, no peer review. I already said some stuff about the Leviathans in an earlier post.

You can´t put a fictional long scientific paper in the game, what you can do is put in some supporting story like uh let´s see other prominent AIs that genocided their creators and assaults our intrepid band of heroes. Oh we have one, the Geth. But uh, instead of using them to support this whole “all synthetics are meanies,” they turned the whole thing upside down and now we can be friends, if we get the reaper puppetmaster out of their system. So are AI in general always a threat or just because the puppetmasters make it so?

The plot is jumping around with Shep closing all the galaxy´s open problems and questions, making friends with AI´s and whatever. We aren´t really closing in on the central thing in the end. We are solving 2000 year old things.

So yeah perhaps the Geth are the exception or perhaps they are already plotting to kill all organics. Could we please see some mean AIs then, instead of flying in one, which is also one of our squadmates and shooting Cerberus goons everywhere?

 

My point is: The writers didn´t use the geth to reinforce and direct us to the central conflict and they were the opportunity to do so. My beef is with the writing here. Please if other megalomaniacal AIs who will kill us all are the big theme, please put them in, especially if the guy telling us, this is the galaxy´s big problem, is an AI killing everyone to ascend them, without showing us that uh yeah ascension is totally different.
 

Which neatly sums up about 90% of human history. Particularly sums up almost every major religion. As almost ever major and even minor religion generally has a central figure of worship who's logic is beyond our understanding.

Hey did you know up until around he 1970's It was perfectly legal for the US government to go into Native American family and take children away from the parents? Regardless of how good or bad the parents actually were? Similar laws existed in Australia. I wonder what this says about humanity.

So? Never said that humans were saints and morally superior.

[gothpunkboy89]

So?
 

Who is looking at humans as food?

 Eagle's prey has a chance to hide, escape or fight back.

 

Well since you asked.

 

If you don't know what looks at humans like food. particularly when my statement was we killed our way to the top of the food chain. As in in the past using are long sharp sticks to fend off really any while animal. Because even if you believe in Creationism. We were not created with AR-15's and AP rounds capable of hinting a target with high accuracy from 100 yards away. We used sharpened sticks and rocks to kill anything that threatened us. Wolfs, bear, big cats, medium cats, buffalo. Red Vs Blue made a great joke on similar subject:

 

Sarge: Alright, men. Fan out and see what you can find. Remember we're hunting the most dangerous prey of them all."

Doc: Man?

Sarge: What? No. Giant robot.

Doc: Oh, yeah.

Sarge: Pfft Man. Everything kills man. Man's way down on the list. Right between Koala and retarded Koala.

 

Drop a man into a cage to fight with quite a lot of animals including a pig or a cow and man dies. We achieved the ranking at the top of the food chain though killing anything that dares to threaten us. Going out of our way to hunt them down even if they aren't threatening us currently. Human history is written in the blood we have spilled to reach the point we are in today. We have done so because while we might be the smartest animal on the planet we are not the fastest nor the strongest.

 

And I think we over compensate for that fact just a little bit some times.

[Monica21]

Eagle's prey has a chance to hide, escape or fight back.

Not really. It's unlikely they understand what's happening to them until they're in the eagle's talons. It's not like a rabbit has a sophisticated strategy to hide from a predator.
 

If you don't know what looks at humans like food. particularly when my statement was we killed our way to the top of the food chain.

Humanity, even early humans, were always at the top of the food chain. There was never a point in early human history where we were competing with sabertooth tigers to "win the battle" as it were. You're showing a misunderstanding of how we got here.

It's true that there are animals that will eat humans, like a bear if you get too close, but that's more a matter of the bear, or any other animal, being threatened and attacking than of using humans as a food supply. There is not a single animal that regularly hunts humans as a source of food.

[gothpunkboy89]

Humanity, even early humans, were always at the top of the food chain. There was never a point in early human history where we were competing with sabertooth tigers to "win the battle" as it were. You're showing a misunderstanding of how we got here.

It's true that there are animals that will eat humans, like a bear if you get too close, but that's more a matter of the bear, or any other animal, being threatened and attacking than of using humans as a food supply. There is not a single animal that regularly hunts humans as a source of food.

 

No humans were always mid level in the food chain. Throughout history even very recent history when we dominate the planet so much we managed to alter the entire rules of the game to ensure we are always on top. There are plenty of example of animals particularly the apex predators of their area hunting and killing humans for food. Some times not even for food. Some times they aren't even predators. Tigers sneaking into little villages and killing people, rouge elephants simply killing anything in their path. Large snakes consuming children in their sleep. Even the lovely gator or croc waiting by the water to pull down any thing that crosses it's path. Deer/elk goring hunter to death.

 

But as I said we altered the variable. We developed cities. We expanded them removing forest and other homes to the animals. Creating areas that we could live but they couldn't. Mostly because we wouldn't let them. If they got near us we killed them. Pushing them back farther and farther while your domain expanded. During that time we advanced our tools of killing.

 

But that doesn't prevent events like recent one of a wild Leopard enter the Bangalore School and injuring 6 people. And if you watch any video of the event you can watch it go after a man trying to climb a fence and pull his ass right off it.  Top of the food chain my bum. Heck Giant Otters are known to take on Camin's or even Jaguars. Without any of the tools we use just the brain and hands nature/god gave them.  But you show me the Gator Boys getting into a water and getting a gator to move simply by biting it's tail. I can start to believe more of the we are top of the food chain stuff. Particularly when the most common meat food sources we eat are near the bottom of the food chain and thus food for quite a wide variety of other animals.

[Monica21]

No humans were always mid level in the food chain.

This is simply not true. Just because the occasional alligator or tiger makes off with a child does not mean that we were ever a major food source for a predator. There is no predator that almost exclusively hunts humans. You're mistaking opportunism for a legitimate predator/prey relationship. And this is why you'll continue to be wrong.

[gothpunkboy89]

I meant: No one talked morals with the Reapers, everyone was busy shooting them. The effectiveness of these measure isn´t relevant when we are taking about how the galactics responded

 

Why were people busy shooting at them? Why were they against the harvest? Why are forum users constantly bringing up subverting free will? Morally they found their actions bad and thus fought against them.

 

All my friends are doing it, mom.
Son you are a higher being. Do you jump off a cliff, because the lemmings do?

 

Higher being really doesn't matter in the fact. If everyone treats everyone like crap then someone being higher or lower really doesn't matter.  Humans are arguably a higher being then the humble cat or dog. Yet shelters over flow with animals that were subjected to abuse or simply abandoned when they no longer suited their needs. You really want to lose a lot of faith in humanity work in or with an animal shelter for a few months.  Now in game I can't speak for the other races but with Humanity since it is our history any Reaper treating us like crap is far more karma finally coming back with a vengeance for all the **** we have done in our past and never gotten punished for.

 

I mentioned that the speed of thinking doesn´t necessarily equate to the quality of reasoning

Yeah there might an issue happen between organics and synthetics somewhere between some unspecified organics and synthetics at some point in the future. It also could rain somewhere on this planet at some time in the future.

But it does. Your applying human qualities onto non human objects to validate your claim. Computers are created specifically to think better and faster then us to help us speed up our endeavors. Or even make said endeavors possible. The computers help us advance in technology and in turn we advance them. In game almost every facet of existence is controlled by computers. In space computers are everything. Even excluding EDI. Computers control the engine, air supply, kinetic barriers, radar.   The galaxy put's it's entire faith in computer's ability to work every single second they are in space.

 

So when an AI so advanced it makes all the tech of the day look like The Antikythera mechanism by comparison.  Who's creators spent time studying the problem. Created it who then spent centuries gathering data and testing hypothesis on what would work and what wouldn't work. That finally came to the conclusion of the Reapers as the only viable solution as a LAST RESORT.

 

There was an issue between organic and synthetic. There was conflict. If you think it has to go A goes right into B goes right into C for the AI to be correct. That is a very simplistic view of things. And rarely does and conflict of any kind is that simple or the straight forward. 

 

am a higher being of pure thought, connected to the collective intelligence of my species. My opinion is more valid because I say so.

 

Technically it is an AI connected to hundreds of other AI's all pooling their thoughts together to form their logic.  Hundreds of minds working together to come to a conclusion on how to act. Sounds a bit like a government.
 

 

The Catalyst explained to Shep that the Crucible isn´t much more than a power source. The Crucible was built over a crapton of cycles. In the last cycle indoctrinated agents sabotaged the project.

 The catalyst was never finished in any cycle but in game. Like wise please do show were in game it says everything the indoctrinated agents do is instantly relayed to any and all Reapers including the AI housed in the Citadel.  Indoctrination doesn't work like that. It never worked like that acting as a 2 way communication between the indoctrinated agent and the Reapers to see and hear everything they do.  

 

Your logic simply doesn't hold up to what we know about indoctrination.

 

So the AI that collected the knowledge of all species it harvested, watched the organics try and try again to build this damn thing and it never got its finger on the plans even when it had agents inside the project or in the mop up phase, where you remove stuff you don´t want lying around, when you have agents already in place?

Why would you need to get your hands on it? You killed everyone involved. You harvested the entire race and you removed all trace of their tech save key locations to allow the next cycle to grow.   Even if it knew what it was an giant energy source. That doesn't mean it will know all the effects of it would be.  You are again stating that the AI has to be omniscient about everything at all times.  Even ignoring the Crucible if it was truly omniscient then none of the events in any ME game should have taken place.  It should have realized the Keepers were altered. It should have had Sovereign act sooner. The events in ME1 should have happened well before Humanity discovered the Relay. We should have entered the Galatic community to find it engulfed in War.

 

Indoctrinated agents work by wanting to help fight against the Reapers. Then when they are presented with the opportunity to help the Reaper cause their subliminal training kicks in.  They don't save copies of the work. The Reapers don't care about they they do what they can to sabotage if not out right destroy. To break the cycle's spirit as they see their one hope to stop them destroyed.

 

Your last sentences a can be read as: The super AI failed at everything it did until the monkey came along.

No it doesn't. You want it to say that but then again someone can make the claim the reason they killed a baby was because it attacked them first. Doesn't make it true.  The AI did what anyone would do when presented with a problem. Gathered data, performed tests and applied the appropriate responds to what the data said worked and didn't work.  When given new data it changed it's solution thanks to that new data or new variable being taken into account.

 

Oh and let´s not forget, If the monkey refuses to play, it goes back to the failed solution. No "oh gee, my solution doesn´t work anymore, the variables are altered and the monkey doesn´t pick something. Perhaps I should use my vast superior intellect, these altered vairables and the odd thing and cook up another solution."

 I love the way you overly simplify things.  Shepard is the variable the altered everything. Without Shepard this would have been another Wed for the Reapers. Shepard was given a chance to change everything because he/she were the only ones worthy of that choice.  If Shepard chooses to deny the options presented to him/her then the AI goes back to the status quo.

 

The failing solution continuing because one of the reasons it states that it leaves the question up to Shepard is because it is incapable of taking action on it's own.  If it could take action on it's own as soon as the Catalyst was connected the Citadel it would have engaged in Synthesis the instant it could. And it is shown at the end of the game that the next cycle finally over came the Reapers. Because again the solution was no longer working.

 

If the Crucible is a potential tool to destroy them and warrants capturing and repositioning the Citadel as soon as it heard from it, why did it never investigate?

Because that was the single smartest move the Reapers make. This forces the united fleets of the galaxy together into one fight. Like wise the Reapers can amass  their fleets in one fight.  This single act would completely decimate beyond any hope of recovery the Fleets of the Galaxy.  Rendering their advancement though space unopposed. Restricting any resistance to ground combat only which can easily be crushed.

 

Think about it from a tactical PoV.  If those Fleets were to stage hit and runs against the divided Reaper Fleets attempting to harvest planets. The effects would be devastating to the Reapers.  How ever consolidate the Reapers. Pretend to react to "danger" and draw out their full strength when you can then over whelm. You break their ability to fight back so utterly the war would be considered over at that point.  The galaxy has a vague hope the Crucible will stop the Reapers but no one know how. The Reapers thanks to TIM know about this information and how much everyone is banking on it.  You couldn't ask for a more perfect trap.  Like drawing lambs to slaughter.
 

Don´t look to the past, but the future. My point was, all these preserving actions became moot when it handed Shep the trigger, all future species will have to compete with the current ones, if it´s destroyed, instead of getting their time.

 

Yes it does but that is the effect of finding alternatives to the  Organic and Synthetic issue. Preservation exists to save that information because of the conflict and eventual death of organic's by synthetics.  New solution = new actions.

[gothpunkboy89]

You don´t need to use the Crucible to destroy or control the Reapers as long as the catalyst is willing to go along with it.

 

And without the Crucible the AI doesn't see any need in changing anything.  Without the Crucible to unite the species of the galaxy it is a game were the Reapers divide and Conquer just like always.

Serious question. Considering your speed in responding, do you have some kind of huge document on your system and just copy/paste sentences based on certain keywords not looking with whom you debate?

 

 

Nope I just remember my arguments because I am making one set discussion about my views. When you aren't trying to argue 3 or 4 different views at once it should be easy to type out responds very quickly. Particularly when certain parts tend to get repeated.

Nope I just remember my arguments because I am making one set discussion about my views. When you aren't trying to argue 3 or 4 different views at once it should be easy to type out responds very quickly. Particularly when certain parts tend to get repeated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My stance on the issue is: The Catalyst only tells us its conclusion, with nothing to back it up. There is no sharing of raw data, no peer review. I already said some stuff about the Leviathans in an earlier post.

 

 

Then by all means refresh the statement about Leviathans. The Prothean VI on Thessia states that evolution follows the same paths the same pattern. This is echoed by the Leviathans stating that the AI studied the rise and fall of countless civilizations.  There is a pattern in the data that the AI follows.

 

Oh we have one, the Geth. But uh, instead of using them to support this whole “all synthetics are meanies,” they turned the whole thing upside down and now we can be friends, if we get the reaper puppetmaster out of their system. So are AI in general always a threat or just because the puppetmasters make it so?

 

 

In the first game the Geth were simply gun fodder for the game enemies. Much like the merc bands or cerberus would be in later games. The Geth were a false flag operation by Sovereign.  Everyone would have been so focused on them when the Reapers hit it would be completely by suprise.

 

With the Geth as I said it adds a layer of grey into the story line. I love games that aren't black and white in their story. The Geth story how ever shows the slight variables that exist in the universe.

 

In ME3 if you never activate or kill Legion during ME2.  The VI Legion and really the Geth in General react with very suspious feeling about organics. Very obvious with the different responds between Legion and VI Legion if you choose to sacrifice the Geth.  Legion simply states that it won't let us decide the Geth's fate. While VI legion states they were right to mistrust organics.  And that is just events in the game. If we go back to orginal Morning War the Geth never finished off the fleeing Quarians because they were unsure of the ramifications of that action. Now had the Council responded in what you would assume would be the natural response to one group nearly committing Genocide and waged war against the Geth. That would have completely altered their view of organics. To entirely negative and indeed even wanting to kill them off.

 

It is actually rather ironic if you think about it. The same selfish self centered actions they take with the Geth are the very thing that prevents the AI's statement from being 100% true instead of the 80% true it currently is. How ever that same selfish and self centered actions is what allows the Reapers to gain the upper hand they had by completely ignoring Shepard and crew until the Reapers are knocking on their doors.

 

The Geth do not disprove the AI's statement. Because it was only by small random chance they turned out how they did rather then how the AI would say. Theses kind of random chance variables exist in all forms of scientific study.  It is why they do multiple tests to gain a consensus. You are using the first result of the only test you have seen to claim the many results of the AI are invalid.

[Rawls]

I could have sworn the title of this thread was "Why wouldn't you logically choose the destroy ending?"

[Dantriges]

Nope I just remember my arguments because I am making one set discussion about my views. When you aren't trying to argue 3 or 4 different views at once it should be easy to type out responds very quickly. Particularly when certain parts tend to get repeated.
Nope I just remember my arguments because I am making one set discussion about my views. When you aren't trying to argue 3 or 4 different views at once it should be easy to type out responds very quickly. Particularly when certain parts tend to get repeated.

After going over your responses it seems to me that you skim over my responses and reply with something you think fits. In at least one case you replied with something that had nothing to do with what I was saying. This is a trend I observed several times now. Considering that I am not even sure that some of your replies were directed at the right person, I see no point in continuing.

[Natureguy85]

Space battles buddy. Geth don't use windows remember? They relay on a very sophisticated radar system to see. The Quarians released an optical flash bang on that radar rendering their ships blind.

 

No it isn't because the Quarians were out tech but found an exploit and used it. There are many cases in Vietnam War of the Kong finding the weakness in the US ground radars and such and exploiting it. Causing them to bomb areas with no one in it while surprising US in another area.

 

Yeah, but I was having fun with your misuse of the word "literally" since the Geth platforms have optics or "eyes". Apparently the ships are piloted by platforms rather than the Geth simply downloading into the hardware. Maybe that was only the fighter.

 

Yeah, that stuff happened and there is some similarity. However, the Korean War was a better analog, as I explained.

 

 

 

Sentience and Sapient are two different things.

 

Sapience is often defined as wisdom, or the ability of an organism or entity to act with appropriate judgement, a mental faculty which is a component of intelligence or alternatively may be considered an additional faculty, apart from intelligence, with its own properties. Robert Sternberg^[23] has segregated the capacity for judgement from the general qualifiers for intelligence, which is closer to cognizant aptitude than to wisdom. Displaying sound judgement in a complex, dynamic environment is a hallmark of wisdom.

 

https://en.wikipedia...Wisdom#Sapience

 

Cows, pigs, deer, squirrels, dogs, cats, horses, goats etc fall under that category. Just the same as people.  And I already showed you how plants act with an awareness of sorts.

 

Gee, it's a good thing I made the distinction then, isn't it? Animals can display some of those characteristics, but most scientists or people generally wouldn't say they are sapient. They don't reason, though they can learn.

 

Interestingly, the banana does "want" to be picked and eaten, or more accurately, the main plant "wants" it. Why do you think fruits tend to be colorful and sweet? It's to attract animals to eat them. That's how the seeds are spread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) Once Sovergin is killed they are able to open all relays which would mean while the Citadel Fleet is still being wiped out on it's own they are able to call in more reinforcements and end them. Remember the only reason the 5th Fleet is even ready is because Joker knew Saren found a back door. Admiral Hackett believed Shep. When Joker showed up telling them what happened he was ready to go. Shep only opens one relay opening because that is the only one he knows is maned by friendly forces.

 

2) Yes it can but it wasn't the complete and only target. If that many ships were targeting it then it should have left the rest of the fleet the ability to fight back against them as it tanked them. This is also a strategy in RTS games. The most powerful unit acts as an aggro unit drawing all other units into attacking it. While it is taking a beating you can use lesser units to destroy the attacking ones. If not our right destroying them then weakening their forces till they are no longer a threat.

 

3) And that was only 5% of the Geth. And 1 Reaper who really didn't do much in he space fight.

 

 

1) You're just making that all up. Firstly, Joker says "Open the relays" plural. There is no indication that Shepard didn't open them all at once. Secondly, if, as in your description, they can't beat the Geth until after Sovereign is dead, where are they while the fleet is fighting Sovereign?

 

2) And sometimes the tank dies, as it did here.

 

3) The 5% figure is an argument after the fact since you don't know it at that point. However, it's also irrelevant because the other 95% weren't hostile. As a minor point, we don't know how much fighting, if any Sovereign did. Because of the jump in the cutscene, we don't know what Sovereign did while waiting for the Citadel arms to start closing. He doesn't rush in to the Presidium Tower until that point.

 

 

 

What an odd thing that a game created by people existing now might draw parallels between that game and our world.

 

And yet you criticized those parallels because Catalyst Shepard didn't explicitly state them. Meanwhile you go on and on elsewhere about the hypocrisy of advanced life, which is certainly something you can argue using the Reapers, but it wasn't a theme of the series. The game didn't draw that parallel at all.

 

 

 

 

 

Simple threat of force no need for violence but show what is waiting if they don't change their mind. Kill the raiders because by human/council law which by entering their space they are now bound by. Just like if you are in from UK but you enter Fance's territorial waters you are now bound to the laws of France. By both council and human law the destruction of the raiders is a legally allowable thing.

 

Monica was continually claiming that Control Shep can't enforce one species or other species ideas on another. So internal slavery is ok with Batarians because that is how their society developed.  They have a very strict chaste system that includes slavery.  By her reasoning and her logic the galaxy at large can not force the batarains to abandon slavery because it is enforcing a different ideology on them then their own. So internal slavery would be find because it is just Batarians.

 

How ever when the Batarians try to involve non Batarians that is when said group goes beyond their own personal society and involves others who are not a part of it against their will. At that point Control Shep is will within it's rights as would any other species in the galaxy to step in and stop said abduction of slaves. And threaten by force of war if they don't stop it.

 

The same goes for Krogan. Within their society how they act and their laws they follow are fine among themselves. When dealing with other species how ever they are not under only their own rules and laws of society. When on the Citadel they are under Council Law. When in Turian Space they are under Turian Law. If they try to invade in an attempt to enact revenge for past deeds then it is within the right for Control Shep or the rest of the Galaxy to step in and put the Krogan down again. Permanently if needed.

 

Monica never claimed that. You say no violence needed, but you will use it if the Batarians don't do what Shepard wants, right? So ultimately it's Shepard enforcing values on society. And my question still stands; why is slavery ok just because it's part of Batarian culture? Does that make it ok? This sounds like the "Black Lives Matter" idiots over here who riot when a white person kills a black person, even in self defense, but do nothing about the thousands of black people murdered by other black people.

 

 

 

 

 

1) Close to my responds. Namely the war would have cost millions of lives to save thousands. Not a worth while trade off while there are other options.

 

2)Yes the Council and all races allied with them would have work together to put down the Krogan again. To complete extinction if need be.

 

3) Yes it is the primary focus. The claim is Control Shep is a bad thing for having so much power. Yet by all accounts it would act the exact way the citizens of the galaxy would act anyways. Which doesn't really support the claim of evil god dictator narrative about control ending Shep AI.

 

You're clearly missing the point so I'll move on.

 

 

 

The AI is part of the story. The Krogan Rebellion was not demonstrated in the story. Neither was the Genophage yet both are considered equally valid. So why dose this rule of must be demonstrated in the story suddenly apply to only the AI?

 

This is a good question and there are three parts to the answer.

 

1) The Rebellions, the Genophage, and the Morning War are all part of world building. They are part of establishing who the Krogans and Quarians are.

 

2) They affect current events. The effects of those historical events are affecting the species and the galaxy today.

 

3) They are introduced early and kept relevant throughout the series.

 

The Catalyst crap doesn't add to world building, is not relevant in any way other than it's the supposed cause for the Reapers themselves, and is introduced at the very end with little to no build up.

[Monica21]

I could have sworn the title of this thread was "Why wouldn't you logically choose the destroy ending?"

It wouldn't be the internet if we didn't get massively derailed. I'm on board with a "is Hitler like Harbinger" tangent within 10 pages.

[Natureguy85]

Geth subscribe to the Zapp Branigan school of military tactics.
 

 

I like Zerg Rush or the Braveheart reference, "We have reserves."

 

 

 

 

Actually, this is referenced in banter between resident toaster deactivation specialists Tali and Javik if you take them on the same mission. Paraphrased:

Javik: "Quarian! You've fought these machines before. What are their tactics?"
Tali: "The same tactic as always: more geth"
Javik: "As I suspected, synthetics lack creativity. They think everything can be solved by numbers alone".

 

Interesting. This reminds me of Mordin's rant about the Collectors' lack of culture.

 

 

 

 

 

If one were to take ME3-Geth seriously, it's implied that Legion was an agrarian unit that first took up arms against the Quarians (in that mission). Not exactly 'advanced', I guess.

 

That would have to be the group of programs known as Legion. It wouldn't make sense for the Mobile Platform to be the same. Of course this platform can hold a larger than normal number of programs so even that doesn't make total sense.

[Natureguy85]

They are natural fighters. The Genophage broke their hope how ever. That is the unexpected responds from it. They didn't see a future and didn't see any hope so they stopped caring and simply went out to do what they enjoy most. Fighting. That is what Wrex and even Wrev does in ME2 and 3. Gives the Krogan hope for the future. Now of course which hope is dictated by who is leading.

 

 

I don't know what you are talking about with the "unexpected response." Unexpected by whom? Unexpected how? Wrex says they are doing what Krogans do because they are Krogan, not because they lost hope. I don't know what your point even is.

 

 

 

It has everything to do with it. It shows a very uneven approach to conflict resolution between the two sides.

 

That has nothing to do with anything because the issue isn't conflict generally; it's that synthetics supposedly wipe out organics.

 

 

It is known the AI exists because it. The AI created the Reapers as the alternate solution because of it. The AI offered you the new paths to take to solve the issue because of it. You are declaring everything it has experienced and learned. The very reason it exists as incorrect. You need a hell of an argument to back that claim up.

 

 

No, I don't because it is the one making the claim. The burden of proof rests on the Catalyst, not on me. In fact, the events of the game can tell a very different story. than what the Catalyst claims.

 

 

Because they were kind of getting shot at and had their intelligence take a significant hit when the Dyson Sphere was destroyed. Had the Quarians stuck then backed off for a year they would have fixed that exploit. Much like in instance with computers someone finds and exploit in a program and developers will release updates to close said exploit.  What they didn't have was time.

 

 

Maybe, maybe not. It's smarter to be preemptive in fixing problems.

 

 

You missed the point I made. The Rachnii couldn't be reasoned with. So when the Krogan were poised to send them into extinction no one spoke up against it. Allowing them to slaughter them all into oblivion.  They couldn't be reasoned with we find out later is because they were driven mad. Had they not been driven mad and could be reasoned with the ending would have been similar to what happened to the Krogan.

 

 

True that the Rachni wouldn't surrender but the rest of that is entirely speculation. The Krogan couldn't be reasoned with, which is why the Genophage was required. Only then did they back down.

 

 

They can't go away. Please tell how the Geth could go away but simply haven't take that option yet? Like wise if they don't trust organics enough to make a deal with them to go to some unused section of the galaxy without needing a second war with Quarians or a first war with the Council after the Morning War. Your theory about the Reaper's claiming AI and Organic can't leave peacefully being wrong starts to develop issues.

 

Easy. Space is big. The galaxy is big. That Quarian space station, for example, was in between solar systems. Geth don't need planets. They don't need water or food. They probably need energy and resources, but they have the ability to survive in harsher environments.

 

There is no issue. The game itself shows that I am right. You can have EDI and Joker in a romantic relationship, for crying out loud. And conflict still isn't the major claim of the Catalyst. It's that Synthetics will wipe out all life. Why do you still fail to grasp this?

 

 

Protheans really don't matter I used them because they are the only one of like 2 maybe 3 species that are known to exist in that time.  No doubt there are some cycles that have more races that are harvested then other. Then there are also cycles that would inevitably have less races harvested then previous. They question and then you get to the STG base and read those handy little terminals.

 

So you really had no point. Got it.

 

 

 

The AI is backed up by the Leviathan's own words. That countless thrall races were wiped out by synthetic life. That they created the AI with the attempt to solve that problem. You have an independent source confirming the AI's statement. The Leviathans even admit it is still serving their purpose. Though obviously not in the way they originally wanted.

 

 

The AI did come to a new conclusion based on new data. The entire reason it gives you the 3 choices is because the galaxy altered the variables and it's solution is no longer working.

 

The Leviathan is an argument after the fact and a DLC. Yes, it helps to have another source claim the same thing. However, this is just as shoved in and tacked on as it is with the Catalyst, especially because it's optional.

 

All it changed was it's solution, but not it's premise. The data show that the premise is wrong.

 

 

 

.Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

 

It's definition is very independent of values. War crime is more directed towards turning a race of intelligent being into mindless slaves to serve you. Which would fall into the Quarian winning side of the argument.

 

Again, that only applies if you see the Geth as "people".

[Natureguy85]

So nice to see the team up effect going on again in this forum.  I love the strength of the inability for anyone with an idea or concept outside of the group to be accepted.

 

Translation: Boo hoo, people disagree with me!

 

 

So immediately after fighting a war were their reliance on networking programs together to be intelligent creates a very large handicap for them when thousands of programs are destroyed. Not to mention they would soon be engaging more Reapers in combat. And thus would want to maximize the Geth's chance for survival by eliminating a very important weakness and render them immune to Reaper's attempting to gain control of them contradicts what exactly?

 

 

Yes, because Legion was adamant in ME2 that even though both factions of the Geth wanted the same goal, what separated them was the means. The heretics wanted to take the Old Machines' gifts while the rest wanted to forge their own path. Now in ME3, Legion wants to take the Old Machines' gifts. This shift should have at least been raised. Heck, for all we know, installing those upgrades is the Synthetic version of Indoctrination.

 

 

 

 

And yet Shep can be a racist A hole and still win.  People who make important decisions are always alone in their choices. What proof do you have that the various leaders of their races would be able to come to a better conclusion then Shep alone? When it was Shepard who is the one that united the races. Shepard is the one that did everything made all the decisions that led to this. Without Shepard the galaxy would have ended with a whimper. Each race more willing to protect themselves then worth together. Of all the people that exist in the galaxy at the point of the choice only Shepard has earned the right to make any choice.

 

Well let me ask you this by what logic do you have to display that Control Shep would fall short?

 

Which is why I point out that regardless of which ending you pick the way it happens be it control, synthesis or destroy are all equally silly. In this case how is less important then what happens.

 

The bold line is just completely false. While one person may have to ultimately make the choice, they don't usually do that in a vacuum. Look at the games themselves. Shepard has companions giving input when he makes a choice on the Council, the Rachni Queen, the Collector Base, and other smaller choices along the way. I don't need proof that the various leaders would come to a better conclusion because we're talking about themes here, so the conclusion is irrelevant. It's the process that matters.

 

Unfortunately, after ME1, Shepard isn't anything other than a really awesome soldier. That doesn't qualify him to make galaxy wide decisions.

 

The logic is that people generally, as well as Shepard and the Catalyst specifically, are fallible and imperfect. He will fall short because it is in his nature to do so. This is human experience.

 

 

 

 

Which is why I point out that regardless of which ending you pick the way it happens be it control, synthesis or destroy are all equally silly. In this case how is less important then what happens.

 

And all were thematically revolting.

 

 

 

 

 

 The catalyst was never finished in any cycle but in game. Like wise please do show were in game it says everything the indoctrinated agents do is instantly relayed to any and all Reapers including the AI housed in the Citadel.  Indoctrination doesn't work like that. It never worked like that acting as a 2 way communication between the indoctrinated agent and the Reapers to see and hear everything they do.  

 

Your logic simply doesn't hold up to what we know about indoctrination.

 

Why would you need to get your hands on it? You killed everyone involved. You harvested the entire race and you removed all trace of their tech save key locations to allow the next cycle to grow.   Even if it knew what it was an giant energy source. That doesn't mean it will know all the effects of it would be.  You are again stating that the AI has to be omniscient about everything at all times.  Even ignoring the Crucible if it was truly omniscient then none of the events in any ME game should have taken place.  It should have realized the Keepers were altered. It should have had Sovereign act sooner. The events in ME1 should have happened well before Humanity discovered the Relay. We should have entered the Galatic community to find it engulfed in War.

 

Indoctrinated agents work by wanting to help fight against the Reapers. Then when they are presented with the opportunity to help the Reaper cause their subliminal training kicks in.  They don't save copies of the work. The Reapers don't care about they they do what they can to sabotage if not out right destroy. To break the cycle's spirit as they see their one hope to stop them destroyed.

 

The Catalyst says it was aware of the Crucible. Wouldn't an intelligence seeking information and a better solution want to know what this thing was? Especially when it happens to be the key to what the AI wants, that being Synthesis?

 

 

 

No it doesn't. You want it to say that but then again someone can make the claim the reason they killed a baby was because it attacked them first. Doesn't make it true.  The AI did what anyone would do when presented with a problem. Gathered data, performed tests and applied the appropriate responds to what the data said worked and didn't work.  When given new data it changed it's solution thanks to that new data or new variable being taken into account.

 

 I love the way you overly simplify things.  Shepard is the variable the altered everything. Without Shepard this would have been another Wed for the Reapers. Shepard was given a chance to change everything because he/she were the only ones worthy of that choice.  If Shepard chooses to deny the options presented to him/her then the AI goes back to the status quo.

 

The failing solution continuing because one of the reasons it states that it leaves the question up to Shepard is because it is incapable of taking action on it's own.  If it could take action on it's own as soon as the Catalyst was connected the Citadel it would have engaged in Synthesis the instant it could. And it is shown at the end of the game that the next cycle finally over came the Reapers. Because again the solution was no longer working.

 

The Catalyst says Shepard altered the variables, though we don't know how. What's so special about reaching that room? Why give Shepard a choice, particularly if Synthesis isn't available? Why can't the Catalyst act? Why not throw Shepard into the Synthesis beam? Why can't Synthesis be forced?

 

If Shepard won't act, why not get another Monkey, since it's really the Crucible that unlocks these things on the Citadel?

 

 

 

 

Because that was the single smartest move the Reapers make. This forces the united fleets of the galaxy together into one fight. Like wise the Reapers can amass  their fleets in one fight.  This single act would completely decimate beyond any hope of recovery the Fleets of the Galaxy.  Rendering their advancement though space unopposed. Restricting any resistance to ground combat only which can easily be crushed.

 

Think about it from a tactical PoV.  If those Fleets were to stage hit and runs against the divided Reaper Fleets attempting to harvest planets. The effects would be devastating to the Reapers.  How ever consolidate the Reapers. Pretend to react to "danger" and draw out their full strength when you can then over whelm. You break their ability to fight back so utterly the war would be considered over at that point.  The galaxy has a vague hope the Crucible will stop the Reapers but no one know how. The Reapers thanks to TIM know about this information and how much everyone is banking on it.  You couldn't ask for a more perfect trap.  Like drawing lambs to slaughter.
 

 

 

Except that has never been the plan of the Reapers. They take the Citadel immediately and shut down the relays to isolate systems. That is the exact opposite of herding them together. This is why I always thought a conventional victory might end up being possible with a united galaxy. That the Reapers don't immediately go for the Citadel is probably the biggest plot hole in the game.