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[Reorte]

Destroy kills the geth, EDI, should shut down the quarian life-support systems even though the ending doesn't acknowledge that, and probably kills you.

Why should it do all of those?

[gothpunkboy89]

Apparently not

 

 

 

 

No, the Geth were mooks to make sure Sovereign's agent, Saren, could get where he needed to go and to cover Sovereign as he approached the Citadel. Had the initial "open" signal worked, the Reapers would just pop in. No distraction was needed.

 

 

 

It doesn't matter if it was a "small random chance." The Catalyst says "always". Only one counterexample is needed to disprove an "always" statement.

 

You really like to ignore game facts to try and make me seem like I'm wrong. The Reaper attack usually follows the same path. Hit the Citadel first as it historcally is the seat of most if not all galactic civilzation by the time the Harvest starts. At that point the leadership is lost and they spread through the unsuspecting relays. This leaves each solar system fighting on it's own against them. Divided as such the technology of the galaxy isn't enough to over come the Reapers. As it was shown with Protheans who were arguably more advanced in tech then current galaxy.

 

This time was different thanks to Prothean's intervention the signal didn't activate. This required Sovereign to recruit an effective fighting force. The Geth to act as wave after wave of cannon fodder to suit it's purpose. And that is exactly what the Geth in ME1 are the gun fodder that would later be taking up by Merc Bands in ME2 and Cerberus in ME3. Because Sovereign was stopped the Reapers had to enter though the back door of the galaxy. Leaving the Citadel and all the connections to it in place.  Along comes Shepard again and actively unites the Fleets of the Galaxy together. Rather then leaving them each more concerned with their own species they allow them to stay divided. Which is exactly what happens before Shep starts to build the Fleet.

 

Seriously replay ME3 none of the other species wanted anything to do with helping with the Crucible or helping retake Earth at the start. They were all more concerned with their own species and their own hides to unite. Once they are united they pose a thread to the Reapers and their current attack method of divide and conquer. That only works if they are divided which near the end of ME3 they are no longer divided. Had they taken that massive fleet and staged Asari style hit and run attacks on the Reapers it would have done terrible damage to the Reapers. There is even a case to argue they could achieve conventional victory doing that though at a high cost.

 

TIM would inform the Reapers of the fleets uniting under Shepard. He would tell them how they are basing all their hopes on the Crucible. How the Citadel is the key to their whole plan and their final hope.  If you have a force that you know you can completely wipe out the opposing army without trouble in a straight out fight. But can be problematic if they only do hit and run attacks. Leaving you unable to actually bring any of your superior strength to bear on them. What would you do? You lure them into a full head on fight were your superior forces can crush them. Which is exactly what the Reapers did.  Regardless of the Crucible being an actual threat to the Reapers or simply being a giant space french tickler they knew the species of the galaxy would attack full head on in a final attempt to end the war. Which is exactly what the Reapers wanted because that let them bring the full brunt of their own superior forces down on them.

 

Small random chance always matters. The Geth were 1/4 and inch from for filling everything the AI said about synthetic vs organic life. 3 out of 4 in the pace of 200 years isn't to bad.  What about 500 years? 800 years?  The game is wonderfully grey in this area. Even if you think it's final conclusion is wrong there is still a strong echo of truth in it's words. And only history will show the final winner.

[Natureguy85]

 

You're essentially arguing that the Reapers are wrong because the ending didn't pointlessly drag out for 3 hours narrating 20,000 different cycles that all resulted in the same thing. You've got the geth and every other advanced AI/VI going rogue in our own cycle, and the zha'til in the previous one as perfect case studies. Really, that's all the Catalyst needs considering you have literally no argument here.

 

That's the problem with the story telling though. This new character is coming in the final moments making grand proclamations that have not been demonstrated in the events of the story and expecting us to take his word for it. What does "going rogue" mean? According to the Leviathan, the Catalyst actually didn't go rogue and it's the one that tried to eliminate its creators. The Geth went rogue and defended themselves against attack and let the Quarians leave. They want to continue to serve. EDI went rogue and just decided to serve a different group.

 

The Catalyst does claim that without the Reapers, Synthetics will destroy all life. Going along with your comments about context, I assume it just means advanced life and not plants and animals, but maybe.

 

 

 

 

That's just a single example of something that could happen.  Quarians in the short term are dependent upon the suits for survival and their cybernetics enhancements are also intergrated into the suits to an extent, and therefore so is their biology as well, meaning the geth have control of all sorts of things. Honestly, that was one of the dumbest things about the "peace" option I thought. The process by which geth software are supposedly improving quarian immunology using the hardware that was already in the suit and the individual's body is basically space magic handwaving, seemed to be aimed at generating more of The Feels (aww wook at the cute robots helping the stupid meatbags!!one11) than anything.

 

Well you're speculating here. It's a legitimate concern, but we really don't know how much that would be an issue. However, I agree that those concerns should have been raised by someone in the game. It would have given the option a bit of "gray" rather than being the obvious best option.

[Quarian Master Race]

The Catalyst certainly *thinks* it has a logical position.

 

But it is wrong. The semantic details of its argument are the only way we know what its argument is, and it is a computer. An AI. It chooses every word for a reason. Synthetics will destroy all organics is what it says, and it is what it means.

 

Even one counter-example where synthetics did not destroy all organics invalidates its logic, and we can find that counter example.

 

There were synthetics that existed before the Catalyst did. Those synthetics did not destroy ALL organics. Therefore the conclusion "Synthetics will destroy all organics" is false.

 

There's an alternate interpretation, and it points out exactly how contradictory and illogical the Catalyst really is.

 

The Catalyst is a synthetic. The Catalyst destroys all organics. The Catalyst sees no way to fulfill its directives except to destroy all organics. Therefore it presents the argument "Synthetics will destroy all organics." Only it sees itself as not destroying all organics, it sees itself as somehow stopping this process by "storing the old life in Reaper form."

 

It cannot see that it is, itself, the problem. Just like it claims its creators couldn't see that they were part of the problem.

 

Destroy the damn thing. It's broken.

you'rejustmachines.jpeg

"in the same way that you are just an animal"

It's a space magic AI. It needn't act anything like a modern computer.

You're drawing the conclusion that its logic is wrong based upon a deliberate semantic misrepresentation of what it elucidates, then bludgeoning this straw man to death.

I don't disagree that the Catalyst/Reapers are the perfect example of the problem itself at large. They are the endgame of what happens when rampant synthetics are allowed to exponentially upgrade their own capablities unchecked, attempting to "save" organics via some orange-blue morality where goo organics somehow aren't dead raw matter. 

I shoot the tube as well. The Reapers attempting to find a "solution" is unnessesary now that organics have our own in the Crucible tech, which they were a catalyst (no, not that one) for creating. If I agreed with the notion that synthetics were worthy of moral consideration, blue or green options also solve this in the only manner that it is possible.

Apologies, I was going by the information on the wiki which wasn't completely clear. It does appear that the Zha'til went rogue before the Reapers themselves showed up, en masse. However, Javik did say the Protheans were winning against the Zha'til, just as the Quarians were against the Geth, until the Reapers interfered in both conflicts.

And, to be honest, I still agree with the poster above that the whole thing is thematic nonsense. It's a fictional story, not real history, so in this case my direct experience of reconciling the Quarians and the Geth, and playing matchmaker for EDI and Joker, really does trump any amount of dry, equally made-up stats and lore about various synthetic rebellions that supposedly happened thousands of years ago, and which I couldn't give all that much of a crap about. "Show don't tell" as the saying goes, and the game has 'shown' me, repeatedly, that after a few false starts synthetics and organics can get along just fine. Then, at the last minute and in the most clumsy way possible, it tries to 'tell' me that they can't. Via the grand high Reaper, dressed up as an annoying little sprog in a hoodie, no less. Most people don't enjoy being slaves, so why is this supposedly brilliant machine unable to grasp the idea that self aware robots wouldn't enjoy it either? The solution to its problem is simply to not give Synthetics a reason to rebel, I.e, don't treat them like crap and they won't want to kill you. A policy that works well on organics too

Apologies for the rant. It wasn't directed at you. Four years later and I still find myself frustrated by that wretched ending.

No doubt, but there's no reason to assume that was the end result, or that even if it had been that the Protheans wouldn't be felled by other synthetics.

If that's good enough for your enjoyment than go with it. Personally, I never take those two options for reasons previously elucidated. In my game, synthetics and organics in no way got along with each other, and the geth had to be destroyed because they betrayed the organics out of convenience, aimed to genocide their Creators, and would not submit to our control. It's not as if the post Crucible endgame is incompatable with either interpretation

 

"It's happened a lot" != "inevitable" (or even particularly relevent when the AIs never get that far).
 
I've had this argument before because people keep running headlong into the same mistake, they seem to take the point that because it's a fantasy universe it can essentially justify anything. That's bad storytelling in general, and particularly bad for science fiction, although ME is more in the space opera vein. The "anything goes" line can only really be applied to concepts the story has invented from scratch. Taking a real-world idea (even one that only exists in concept) and saying it is definite, without even justifying that by demonstrating why the counter-view wouldn't happen, is extremely poor writing and the sort of thing that'll make some of the audience reject the claims. If you must have your fictional "this is how it is" then justify it.

At least invent some piece of technobabble wotsit to make it inevitable in the fictional universe. FTL travel is a good example - it's impossible (as far as we know) so there's some fictional stuff invented to make it possible in the fictional universe. That's rather different from saying "Nope, we can just go faster than light."

Also note that any claim of inevitability is much more significant than claims of highly likely. The latter is much easier to get away with.

Of course there is a non zero probability that the Catalyst's conclusion is wrong, but the sample size of data in its favour is such that it's essentially the same thing as declaring the Theory of Evolution and its processes "inevitable".

I'm not arguing the ending doesn't suffer grossly from bad writing (lots of the story does, particularly the idea of the Crucible, and also the Rannoch arc which is far worse than the endings but gets a pass because "muh Feelz") and is poorly elucidated, but it wasn't so bad as to be incomprehensible and it in no way came out of nowhere as some are claiming. Organics v synthetics was a huge theme throughout the trilogy from the start, with Sovereign (a synthetic) saying they specifically targets organics, as well as the geth revolting and becoming the enemy of every organic in the galaxy and seeing them likewise. In ME3 it became obvious as the central one and was blatantly foreshadowed at Rannoch. Lots of people missed it because they were busy brokering a temporary ceasefire predicated almost entirely upon subjugation and threat of violence, which due to the lopsided, propagandized portrayal of the geth as cuddly and harmless woobies that they aren't according to history (and the cutting of Admiral Xen's sidequest not giving much airtime to quarian dissidents to their own enslavement) was missed by most players due to an otherwise lack of focus on that aspect of the post Rannoch geth-quarian relationship. They whitewashed the geth and heavily blugeoned players with the Feelz stick in that permutation, so it really doesn't surpise me that people connect and try to use it as a counterargument with the ending. I didn't get that impression because I didn't take that option, and one of the writers (Gaider, I think) admitted it was stupid to put it in as it is.

In practical terms, they're precisely the same thing as mentioned earlier with the theory of evolution example. Even if the quarians are genius savants (we are) and have created the perfect synthetics that will be content with j just giving their Creator pets a comfortable existence while sitting in their Dyson Sphere calculating Pi until heat death of the universe, there's nothing other than the Crucible stopping lets say the turians from making some more warlike examples, lets say because they fear being militarily outshone by the suit rats and their Reaper upgraded masters (sounds like them) that go full Reaper because reasons and kill everyone including the Pinnochio bots (if they stand in their way).

No, Admiral, it isn't 'disturbing' to be misty eyed. It's just a natural organic reaction to something that stirs the ... soul . In your obsession with the Geth, I think you're turning part synthetic yourself 

 

Everything that the Geth do in ME3 is absolutely stupid anyway so I don't take the Rannoch arc that seriously. If one were to explain the nonsense of the Geth's decisions, it could be said it was because the Quarians

 

 

in the Seventeen Days War. So if you don't want the Geth's upgrades, don't consider it to be taken by every Quarian who were moments ago prepared to fight to the last against their old enemies.

It disturbs me because it fits right in with the horrendously misanthropic view the writers of this series had of organic species (which I see displayed on these forums constantly as well). That they were these utterly irrational, stupid, self destructive emotion driven things, barely more capable than animals, who need guidance and "protection" from their natural synthetic superiors. The mutilation, killing or enslaving of countless trillions of organics is totally justifiable "for their own good" and in order to provide nonsentient robotic technologies with rights and self determination that they neither require nor are morally deserving of. If I thought that synthetics were actually life forms, I might even call it racism. That's exactly what the writers called the organics "killing" "experimenting on" or "enslaving" (Chris l'Etoile's words, not mine) synthetics conversely, so I don't see how it somehow doesn't apply when they do it to us.

I'm absolutely repulsed by the idea that their Reaper logic is correct (it is pre-Crucible), but my moral outrage doesn't mean it is automatically invalid in the universe the writers created.

As stated, Rannoch's writing was atrocious, mostly due to inconsistent portrayal of the geth rendering the entire conflict to be complete nonsense, but also due to the writers trying to make one dimensional pantomime villains of every quarian who didn't share their own psychosis on toasters being "alive".

I don't give the geth those upgrades. Even if I somehow deemed their help entirely necessary to the war effort and worth the gamble that they weren't yet again lying to me, and just trying to dupe me into allowing the upgrades and being an accomplice to genocide (which they only aren't in very specific circumstances involving two characters whom aren't required), in my mind immediate extinction is no less preferable to submission and eventual extinction. I'd rather spare the majority of the few quarians still in existence themselves and potentially billions of their progeny being sold into slavery by part of their spineless leadership, only to be killed off later anyway. Now, if I thought the quarians or someone else had a good chance at turning the tables on the Reaper upgraded geth (as Xen was originally to attempt and the Crucible accomplishes) it might be more palatable if only as a last resort to hedge bets against the Reapers, but given that the entire solution to the conflict involves building and using magic plot device and not actually fighting the Reapers pound for pound, I gamble that it won't be necessary to give the toasters the key to the galaxy, which eventually pays off either way.

[Natureguy85]

You really like to ignore game facts to try and make me seem like I'm wrong. The Reaper attack usually follows the same path. Hit the Citadel first as it historcally is the seat of most if not all galactic civilzation by the time the Harvest starts. At that point the leadership is lost and they spread through the unsuspecting relays. This leaves each solar system fighting on it's own against them. Divided as such the technology of the galaxy isn't enough to over come the Reapers. As it was shown with Protheans who were arguably more advanced in tech then current galaxy.

 

This time was different thanks to Prothean's intervention the signal didn't activate. This required Sovereign to recruit an effective fighting force. The Geth to act as wave after wave of cannon fodder to suit it's purpose. And that is exactly what the Geth in ME1 are the gun fodder that would later be taking up by Merc Bands in ME2 and Cerberus in ME3. Because Sovereign was stopped the Reapers had to enter though the back door of the galaxy. Leaving the Citadel and all the connections to it in place.  Along comes Shepard again and actively unites the Fleets of the Galaxy together. Rather then leaving them each more concerned with their own species they allow them to stay divided. Which is exactly what happens before Shep starts to build the Fleet.

 

Actually the game shows you to be wrong. I just highlight it. The Prothean intervention just meant that Sovereign couldn't activate the Citadel relay remotely. However, we saw in ME1 that the Reapers can be given control of the Citadel via a console. There is no story reason for the Reapers to not immediately blitz the Citadel, take control of the Relay Network, and divide and conquer like normal.

 

 

 

Seriously replay ME3 none of the other species wanted anything to do with helping with the Crucible or helping retake Earth at the start. They were all more concerned with their own species and their own hides to unite. Once they are united they pose a thread to the Reapers and their current attack method of divide and conquer. That only works if they are divided which near the end of ME3 they are no longer divided. Had they taken that massive fleet and staged Asari style hit and run attacks on the Reapers it would have done terrible damage to the Reapers. There is even a case to argue they could achieve conventional victory doing that though at a high cost.

 

The only reason they are able to unite is because of the plot hole of the Reapers not taking the Citadel and shutting down the Network.

 

You would be right about conventional victory but the writers kill that off so that everything hinges on their magical device.
 

 

 

 

 

 

TIM would inform the Reapers of the fleets uniting under Shepard. He would tell them how they are basing all their hopes on the Crucible. How the Citadel is the key to their whole plan and their final hope.  If you have a force that you know you can completely wipe out the opposing army without trouble in a straight out fight. But can be problematic if they only do hit and run attacks. Leaving you unable to actually bring any of your superior strength to bear on them. What would you do? You lure them into a full head on fight were your superior forces can crush them. Which is exactly what the Reapers did.  Regardless of the Crucible being an actual threat to the Reapers or simply being a giant space french tickler they knew the species of the galaxy would attack full head on in a final attempt to end the war. Which is exactly what the Reapers wanted because that let them bring the full brunt of their own superior forces down on them.

 

Unless I could totally cripple their ability to move around, which the Reapers can, but don't. The Reapers don't need to draw out the combined fleet. This isn't Star Wars: Return of the Jedi. It would be fish in a barrel.

 

 

Small random chance always matters. The Geth were 1/4 and inch from for filling everything the AI said about synthetic vs organic life. 3 out of 4 in the pace of 200 years isn't to bad.  What about 500 years? 800 years?  The game is wonderfully grey in this area. Even if you think it's final conclusion is wrong there is still a strong echo of truth in it's words. And only history will show the final winner.

 

It says always. Go look up what always means. Anything less than 100% is failure.

[Dani86]

 

 

It says always. Go look up what always means. Anything less than 100% is failure.

 

I agree. Basic principle of a logic equation. Always means always. The only way the catalyst's 'logic' makes any kind of sense is if synthetics always destroy organics. If that premise is incorrect then the catalyst's conclusion is just inherently logically wrong. 

[Elhanan]

I agree. Basic principle of a logic equation. Always means always. The only way the catalyst's 'logic' makes any kind of sense is if synthetics always destroy organics. If that premise is incorrect then the catalyst's conclusion is just inherently logically wrong.

According to the advanced intel available by that time, Synthetics have destroyed all advanced organic cultures in the past several cycles; each cycle being 50k years. Perhaps not always, but as long as anyone is able to remember besides the Leviathans.

[Natureguy85]

According to the advanced intel available by that time, Synthetics have destroyed all advanced organic cultures in the past several cycles; each cycle being 50k years. Perhaps not always, but as long as anyone is able to remember besides the Leviathans.

 

What intel? It's just the Catalyst's word and it didn't happen in many cycles, potentially none after the Cycles started, because there were Organics around to make into Reapers. Unless you meant the Reapers, though they are weird cyborgs.

[Dani86]

According to the advanced intel available by that time, Synthetics have destroyed all advanced organic cultures in the past several cycles; each cycle being 50k years. Perhaps not always, but as long as anyone is able to remember besides the Leviathans.

 

Yes, the reapers (synthetics) have destroyed all advanced organic life every 50,000 years or so for the last billion years or so. We are talking about the Catalyst's original logic in creating the reapers prior to a billion years ago. 

[themikefest]

I like to ask the catalyst why it took control of the geth in this cycle? The quarians would've destroyed them without the reaper interference. I believe Javik says in his time they were turning the tide against the machines in their favor until the reapers showed up and interfered. Had the reapers not interefere, organics would've destroyed the machines. Even the geth didn't destroy all the quarians 300 years ago. So much for the synthetics will destroy all organics thing. Just shoot the tube and call it a day

[Quarian Master Race]

I like to ask the catalyst why it took control of the geth in this cycle? The quarians would've destroyed them without the reaper interference.

Militarily, it ties up one definite and one potential but both powerful foes killing each other, and makes the harvest of the other species that much easier via divide and conquer. The geth offered their assistance to the Reapers on a silver platter, so it's not like it even took much effort to get a free army of synthetic husks. Had they not taken this oppourtunity, the quarians would have smashed the geth in about two weeks, dumped their civvies on Rannoch and then brought the full force of the Migrant Fleet into the fight without a scratch, instead of getting tied up having to play cat and mouse with the Reaper geth, their strength slowly waning all the while that the Reaper signal is in place. 

The plan sort of blows up in their face if you manage the ceasefire and both armies end up trying to kill the Reapers in an enemy of my enemy sort of fashion, but it's likely they didn't predict this (the codex seems to state as much) seeing as it is nonsensically and entirely predicated on literally 2 individuals among billions learning to get along for some reason making everyone in their species do likewise after 3 centuries of hatred and 100% mathematically justified mistrust. They can't indoctrinate everyone (although how the Legion/Geth VI manages to break away from Reaper control isn't really explained and doesn't make any sense).

If you don't manage that ceasefire, it's categorically a win for the Reapers either way. A lot of bucketheads or toasters that could have been used against them are not breathing/nonfunctional, and all it took was a single paltry Destroyer that they have hundreds of thousands of.

[Dantriges]

Yes, the reapers (synthetics) have destroyed all advanced organic life every 50,000 years or so for the last billion years or so. We are talking about the Catalyst's original logic in creating the reapers prior to a billion years ago. 

 

We don´t know much about this cycle and what happened there. For all we know the Leviathans were pulling the strings,  they couldn´t bear to let anything exist that isn´t under their control and ordered their subjects to subjugate or destroy which failed. it´s not unlikely that their subjects were also inexperienced in warfare (with whom, everyone is a contributing tributary for the Leviathans). 

Idle speculation but we only have some vague blather from some descendants of the Leviathans involved who could tell us some garbled second hand intel (mom and dad were some janitors on a second rate uplift world) and the AI in question, which is talking in absolutes and probably unaware of any bugs, hardware blocks or coded assumptions in its reasoning. 

 

So well, I doubt that the leviathan cycle is evidence for anything. We just know that something happened, not how often, what the situation was like and so on. At least it´s not enough for Shepard´s reaction at the end. We don´t know if it´s a problem specific to the Leviathan cycle or the Leviathans themselves, why the leviathans didn´t simply order their subjects to stop fooling around with AIs or why they didn´t blast them to kingdom come once they showed up. This EMP weapon is rather nasty after all. 

 

I like to ask the catalyst why it took control of the geth in this cycle? The quarians would've destroyed them without the reaper interference. I believe Javik says in his time they were turning the tide against the machines in their favor until the reapers showed up and interfered. Had the reapers not interefere, organics would've destroyed the machines. Even the geth didn't destroy all the quarians 300 years ago. So much for the synthetics will destroy all organics thing. Just shoot the tube and call it a day

 

The Reapers allied with the Zha´til. Seems they were doing it every tme.

[themikefest]

Militarily, it ties up one definite and one potential but both powerful foes killing each other, and makes the harvest of the other species that much easier via divide and conquer.The geth offered their assistance to the Reapers on a silver platter, so it's not like it even took much effort to get a free army of synthetic husks.

Is that what the catalyst would've said if Shepard were given the opportunity to ask the thing?
 

 

[Quarian Master Race]

Is that what the catalyst would've said if Shepard were given the opportunity to ask the thing?

given its essentially the same strategy employed by one of its puppets, Sovereign, earlier in the series, probably. The Reapers don't care about the geth and have no problem simply using them as tools.

[Natureguy85]

The plan sort of blows up in their face if you manage the ceasefire and both armies end up trying to kill the Reapers in an enemy of my enemy sort of fashion, but it's likely they didn't predict this (the codex seems to state as much) seeing as it is nonsensically and entirely predicated on literally 2 individuals among billions learning to get along for some reason making everyone in their species do likewise after 3 centuries of hatred and 100% mathematically justified mistrust. They can't indoctrinate everyone (although how the Legion/Geth VI manages to break away from Reaper control isn't really explained and doesn't make any sense).

If you don't manage that ceasefire, it's categorically a win for the Reapers either way. A lot of bucketheads or toasters that could have been used against them are not breathing/nonfunctional, and all it took was a single paltry Destroyer that they have hundreds of thousands of.

 

Actually it's far more complicated than that. Had the Rannoch Reaper or the Catalyst looked at the specifics of that situation, he could have made a far more compelling argument for why the peace wouldn't last than "because", though as with the first Morning War, it would have been on the Quarians.

 

The peace was actually forged because one of those individuals happened to be an Admiral, another Admiral wanted peace anyway, and most importantly, the Quarians were under threat of their own extinction because the Geth were now militarily superior because of the Reaper upgrades. Their choices were peace or die. This, not that the Geth programs are in the suits, is actually the best argument for the idea that the Quarians are now slaves to the Geth. Garrel wanted to keep fighting and only stops because the Quarians will die. Psychologically, it's the same as if the Quarians were surrendering to an invading army. There could be a lot of pent up resentment that would one day end up in a "rebellion".

[themikefest]

given its essentially the same strategy employed by one of its puppets, Sovereign, earlier in the series, probably. The Reapers don't care about the geth and have no problem simply using them as tools.

Maybe so, but I would ask the thing why not use the collectors as well as the geth? Or just use the collectors without the geth?

[Reorte]

Maybe so, but I would ask the thing why not use the collectors as well as the geth? Or just use the collectors without the geth?

Do the Collectors have much in the way of military strength? One base and one big ship that smashed the SR1, although even the un-upgraded SR2 can do quite a bit to it. Getting the turrets up on Horizon made it scarper. The Collectors only ever did hit and run on pretty much undefended worlds, they don't seem to have a lot of military force. I suppose that they might have other bases and ships we know nothing about though, especially if they were planning on hitting Earth sooner or later (although if so why not start there and take it by surprise).

[themikefest]

Do the Collectors have much in the way of military strength? One base and one big ship that smashed the SR1, although even the un-upgraded SR2 can do quite a bit to it. Getting the turrets up on Horizon made it scarper. The Collectors only ever did hit and run on pretty much undefended worlds, they don't seem to have a lot of military force. I suppose that they might have other bases and ships we know nothing about though, especially if they were planning on hitting Earth sooner or later (although if so why not start there and take it by surprise).

Did anyone know what their strength was before encountering them? Had the seeker swarms been unleashed on the Citadel, Sovereign most likely of succeeded in opening the relay to darkspace letting his friends in to start the harvest

[Natureguy85]

Did anyone know what their strength was before encountering them? Had the seeker swarms been unleashed on the Citadel, Sovereign most likely of succeeded in opening the relay to darkspace letting his friends in to start the harvest

 

No "most likely" about it. They'd have just paralyzed Shepard and company, preventing them from beating Saren and accessing the controls.

[Elhanan]

What intel? It's just the Catalyst's word and it didn't happen in many cycles, potentially none after the Cycles started, because there were Organics around to make into Reapers. Unless you meant the Reapers, though they are weird cyborgs.

And Prothean data, Leviathan, etc. Lots of intel before the Star Child came around to visit.

[gothpunkboy89]

Actually the game shows you to be wrong. I just highlight it. The Prothean intervention just meant that Sovereign couldn't activate the Citadel relay remotely. However, we saw in ME1 that the Reapers can be given control of the Citadel via a console. There is no story reason for the Reapers to not immediately blitz the Citadel, take control of the Relay Network, and divide and conquer like normal.

 

 

There is also no reason they would need to. The cat is out of the bag they hit the Batarians first creating the initial wave of ground troops then started in on other races converting them as needed. By every intelligent measure the galaxy should have been ready and waiting for them. Sadly not everyone is as smart as the Geth. So a convenient left alone with no ally race like the Batarian creates perfect front line troops.

 

There is no story reason for them to need to take the Citadel. They seem to be doing fairly well without it.

 

The only reason they are able to unite is because of the plot hole of the Reapers not taking the Citadel and shutting down the Network.

 

You would be right about conventional victory but the writers kill that off so that everything hinges on their magical device.

Citadel isn't needed to lock down all relays.  The only thing so far shown the Citadel has the ability to shut down is the relays that connect to it.  Which was something already known by the Council races. Other wise they would have shut down the Relays during the Rachnii Wars cutting them off. Opening them only long enough to send troops into the battle zones. 

 

No the conventional victory would require the Reapers stubbornly sticking to the existing tactics while never adapting. Something in game they are shown to do. Meeting the Turians who fight with head on strength with even more strength. Learning the Asari hit and run moves and adding more troops to the point the hit and runs could no longer be maintained forcing them to create a defensive perimeter to the planet. Which because it wasn't how the Asari or their ships were build for they were run over by Reapers.

 

It would require such sacrifices it would pretty much be a Pyrrhic victory.

 

 

Unless I could totally cripple their ability to move around, which the Reapers can, but don't. The Reapers don't need to draw out the combined fleet. This isn't Star Wars: Return of the Jedi. It would be fish in a barrel.

Look if you want to bring realistic play into this series Shepard shouldn't have gotten to Ilos to start with. Sovergin should have been waiting at the relay an in orbit. Even if they got to the planet without trouble the second Joker air drops them in Sovereign should have found them and blew the hell out of Joker. No Joker then no human fleet. No human fleet then Sovergin would be free to sit there on the Citadel until he regained control without worry of any ship or ships shooting at him. Shep would have delayed his plan ever so slightly but ultimately Sovergin would have won and the Reapers would have appeared.

 

You do know why the Reapers blow up ships right? It really isn't because they want to. More because they need to destroy all defenses before they can start harvesting. Kind of the equivalent of swatting annoying flies before you start to BBQ outside. Destroying those fleets would make it so much easier to harvest planets with 90% of anything that could get in their way destroyed already.

 

It says always. Go look up what always means. Anything less than 100% is failure.

It also deals with multiple synthetic creations over thousands of years. You have 1 example over 200 years.  Multiple examples over a long time period vs 1 example over short time period.

 

Oh but that is right AI never showed it's work. You know it is really odd how people choose to disable their suspension of belief. A single team is able to wade though enough corpses you could build another great wall out of them. No one bats an eye lash.

 

How ever an AI claims synthetics will create chaos and kill off organics. Even though this information is backed up by the decedents of the AI's creator. You know pointing out how dozens of Thrall species were killed off by their own synthetic creations. Because said AI didn't show his work. Everyone loses their mind.

[Elhanan]

Yes, the reapers (synthetics) have destroyed all advanced organic life every 50,000 years or so for the last billion years or so. We are talking about the Catalyst's original logic in creating the reapers prior to a billion years ago.

So for the record, organics managed to survive just once as an advanced civilization during that time; the creators of the Star Child. Would not exactly bet based on that history.

[Dantriges]

Cinematics often show the relay when dropping out of relay travel, but you can´t relay camp, you can chose a point somewhere in the sytem and then get some random deviation according to the codex. Showing the relay is a device to show "these ships came from another system."

 

And Prothean data, Leviathan, etc. Lots of intel before the Star Child came around to visit.

 

Prothean data was that every cycle behaved pretty much the same like some unseen researcher experimenting with the galaxy. The Catalyst said they tried synthesis earlier. That´s something you can´t do after the harvest. So every data after the Leviathan cycle is probably contaminated by the catalyst pressing itsthink fat fingers into the petri dish. At least it´s something in the realm of "we don´t know."

[gothpunkboy89]

Cinematics often show the relay when dropping out of relay travel, but you can´t relay camp, you can chose a point somewhere in the sytem and then get some random deviation according to the codex. Showing the relay is a device to show "these ships came from another system."

 

 

Prothean data was that every cycle behaved pretty much the same like some unseen researcher experimenting with the galaxy. The Catalyst said they tried synthesis earlier. That´s something you can´t do after the harvest. So every data after the Leviathan cycle is probably contaminated by the catalyst pressing itsthink fat fingers into the petri dish. At least it´s something in the realm of "we don´t know."

 

Existing Human ships are able to detect and lock onto other ships from miles away in space. A Reaper like wise would be able to detect and lock onto ships at least the same distance though probably even further.  Coming though a relay should count as FTL flight. Which would mean for the instant the Normandy popped out it's stealth system's shouldn't have stopped the ability for Sovereign to be aware of the Normandy.

 

Entering and exiting an atmosphere would have created some friction and heat on the hull. Once back in space that effect should have lit the ship up like a Christmas tree against the background of space. As their stealth systems only absorb the heat they produce internally.

 

More like it already knew the results. And continued to try new methods of solution that failed so went by the old standby that works. You know kind of like if you are trying to find a cure to a disease. You keep letting it replicate and test new methods on it. When it is shown it doesn't work you record your results and wipe out the altered bacteria strain. Then try again with the next batch.

[Iakus]

According to the advanced intel available by that time, Synthetics have destroyed all advanced organic cultures in the past several cycles; each cycle being 50k years. Perhaps not always, but as long as anyone is able to remember besides the Leviathans.

Those are the Reapers with their thumbs (tentacles?) on the scale.  They are manipulating the data to justify their "purpose"