2612 réponses à ce sujet

[themikefest]

Only for those that survive....

Synthesis FTW

everyone survives

 

Destroy FTW

[dorktainian]

for the trillions of people butchered by the reapers....

 

Destroy FTW.

[themikefest]

A traffic light has red on top with green on the bottom

 

Destroy FTW

[Iakus]

This is probably going to sound ruder than I mean it to, but I don't think there's much to understand about people who choose Synthesis. My imagination is that these are the first guys in line for wearable tech and always have to have the newest smartphone. There's no recognition, or even understanding, that there are solar systems filled with sentient, organic life who aren't Shepard and who would at least go, "Eh? You're gonna do what?" when Shepard decides to take a swan dive. But none of those voices get heard partly because yes, circumstance puts Shepard in the room, but also partly because it's a stupid decision to even have.

Indeed.

 

If people want to pursue transhumanism, be my guest.

 

But I like my DNA fine the way it is.

 

"I fight for freedom.  Mine and everyone's.  I fight for the right to choose our own fate"

[Elhanan]

Indeed.
 
If people want to pursue transhumanism, be my guest.
 
But I like my DNA fine the way it is.
 
"I fight for freedom.  Mine and everyone's.  I fight for the right to choose our own fate"

You'll adapt....

[Iakus]

You'll adapt....

http://tvtropes.org/...intedOnYourSoul

 

[themikefest]

But I like my DNA fine the way it is.

That's right. I like mine and its going to stay that way
 

"I fight for freedom.  Mine and everyone's.  I fight for the right to choose our own fate"

Yep. That's why when I start walking towards the endings I have a weapon in my hand. It was put there to shoot the tube. Now everyone can have a future free from the threat of reapers

[Iakus]

 

Yep. That's why when I start walking towards the endings I have a weapon in my hand. It was put there to shoot the tube. Now everyone can have a future free from the threat of reapers

Except the geth

 

And EDI

 

And the AIs shackled in the Traverse

 

And the Virtual Aliens

 

And (by implication) anyone with the "wrong" cybernetics

 

As well as any synthetic life out there we may not have met yet.

[themikefest]

Except the geth

 

And EDI

 

And the AIs shackled in the Traverse

 

And the Virtual Aliens

 

And (by implication) anyone with the "wrong" cybernetics

 

As well as any synthetic life out there we may not have met yet.

I'm not seeing a problem

[Monica21]

Indeed.
 
If people want to pursue transhumanism, be my guest.
 
But I like my DNA fine the way it is.

I won't lie, there's plenty I'd like to change about my DNA. I just don't want someone to choose what to change. Making my eyes synthetic won't do a damn bit of good.

[Elhanan]

I won't lie, there's plenty I'd like to change about my DNA. I just don't want someone to choose what to change. Making my eyes synthetic won't do a damn bit of good.

Evidently, it does.

[Monica21]

Evidently, it does.

I've got a lot of problems. My eyesight is the least of my worries. So no, it doesn't.

[Quarian Master Race]

And (by implication) anyone with the "wrong" cybernetics

Who are these people? Shep is Darth Vader level cyborg and lives through the Destroy blast at least. Next in line in terms of prevalence you've the quarians with their various augmentations. Tali is fine enough to not be in hospital, is walking and can put Shep's name on the wall, and the other quarians are shown rebuilding their civilization on Rannoch. Anyone else at risk?

 

If it "kills" people who are having a VI animate their body such as President Christopher Huerta or Reaper/Cerberus husks (including Keepers), I can live with that just fine, as they were meat puppets whom were already dead. I'm not even sure it destroys all VI's though, as the ones on ships are seemingly fine, or at least easily repaired. 

[Iakus]

I'm not seeing a problem

I do.

 

I won't lie, there's plenty I'd like to change about my DNA. I just don't want someone to choose what to change. Making my eyes synthetic won't do a damn bit of good.

And you making what adjustments you wish would be you choosing your own fate.

[Iakus]

Who are these people? Shep is Darth Vader level cyborg and lives through the Destroy blast at least. Next in line in terms of prevalence you've the quarians with their various augmentations. Tali is fine enough to not be in hospital, is walking and can put Shep's name on the wall, and the other quarians are shown rebuilding their civilization on Rannoch. Anyone else at risk?

 

If it "kills" people who are having a VI animate their body such as President Christopher Huerta or Reaper/Cerberus husks, I can live with that just fine, as they were already dead. I'm not even sure it destroys all VI's though, as the ones on ships are seemingly fine, or at least easily repaired. 

The Catalyst states that "even you are partly synthetic" and unless your EMS is extremely high, the blast kills Shepard outright (despite having a completely organic mind)

 

Being "partly synthetic" is apparently enough to put you in danger of the Red Magic Wave.  The only question that remains is which ones.  President Huerta?  The members of the salarian's transhuman movement?  People with artificial organs?  Certain biotics?  

[Dantriges]

So Low EMS Destroy is the best. The Starkid is annoyed with you, Earth is burning, so for most of humanity you don´t have to wonder, are they still organic enough. The SSV Daddy issues is finally done with and the geth and probably the quarians are freed of the nonsense they had to endure from the writers.

[Quarian Master Race]

The Catalyst states that "even you are partly synthetic" and unless your EMS is extremely high, the blast kills Shepard outright (despite having a completely organic mind)

Yeah, but that seems to be mostly an arbitrary video game success/failure condition, so I don't know if we could attach it to Shep's augmentations. Low EMS destroy fries the entire 11 billion or so people on Earth despite most having no cybernetics at all. 
 

Being "partly synthetic" is apparently enough to put you in danger of the Red Magic Wave.  The only question that remains is which ones.  

Well it obviously isn't anything up to and including Shepard, who is abnormally so due to being literally dead at one point, and is dependant upon synthetic technologies emulating the functions of other tissues to even survive.

 President Huerta?   

He's a meat puppet how he's described. A VI is driving his body, which you can point out in the argument between the hospital receptionist and the woman. Galvani figured out we can stimulate muscle tissue on a dead animal with electricity to make it move about 300 years ago, but it's still dead. Next.

 

The members of the salarian's transhuman movement? 

Don't know about them. If they're willingly doing something stupid like hooking their brain or nervous system up to VI's, I've less sympathy for them than I would a husk who had such done so unwillingly. Either way, a very small price to pay when the Reapers are killing a million score or so people per day (Garrus describes 5 million people dying on Palaven per day, and the codex states 1.86 million people are merely processed on Earth daily, not counting the numbers who are simply killed fighting back).

 

People with artificial organs? 

Obviously not. Both Shep (everything in the Lazarus description) and quarians (immunity boosting implants) have these, along with likely countless others.

 

 Certain biotics?  

If Kaidan and Jack are fine, I'd struggle to think up a biotic who isn't.

[Natureguy85]

This is probably going to sound ruder than I mean it to, but I don't think there's much to understand about people who choose Synthesis. My imagination is that these are the first guys in line for wearable tech and always have to have the newest smartphone. There's no recognition, or even understanding, that there are solar systems filled with sentient, organic life who aren't Shepard and who would at least go, "Eh? You're gonna do what?" when Shepard decides to take a swan dive. But none of those voices get heard partly because yes, circumstance puts Shepard in the room, but also partly because it's a stupid decision to even have.

 

I don't think that's it at all. These people aren't pulled in by the idea of transhumanism or joining with technology. People like Elhanan were roped in by the happy, hopeful, koombayah language that Synthesis was written with. It's so obviouly supposed to be the good ending. If you don't think about it and ignore everything that happened before the Catalyst scene, it works great. Don't think about the implications of anything at the end, because it's clear that the writers and animators sure didn't. This is why it's actually pointless to try and figure out who dies with Destroy.

 

I was originally going to say that it works if you only feel and don't think, but that's not true. The endings made me feel empty and awful before I ever sat back and thought about why.

 

 

If it "kills" people who are having a VI animate their body such as President Christopher Huerta...

 

A high tech VI that thinks it's President Huerta. Bioware had an in-universe example of what ends of being a throw away line by Shepard that should have been a big deal in the previous game.

[Monica21]

I don't think that's it at all. These people aren't pulled in by the idea of transhumanism or joining with technology. People like Elhanan were roped in by the happy, hopeful, koombayah language that Synthesis was written with. It's so obviouly supposed to be the good ending. If you don't think about it and ignore everything that happened before the Catalyst scene, it works great. Don't think about the implications of anything at the end, because it's clear that the writers and animators sure didn't. This is why it's actually pointless to try and figure out who dies with Destroy.

I think the happy, hopeful language is partly due to the Catalyst's idea that human seek perfection through technology. There's a pervasive idea among geeks that tech fixes everything. There's certainly a hopefulness to tech and even just the internet itself, but tech does not solve problems by virtue of it being tech. And I guess that another part of Synthesis, is that there's no guarantee that having our DNA rewritten will do much of anything to solve problems. It won't guarantee that the Krogan won't still hate the Salarians and Turians. It won't guarantee that the same problems won't still exist. It only guarantees that we all get new software, but it doesn't guarantee that we will fundamentally change our behavior.

[Natureguy85]

I think the happy, hopeful language is partly due to the Catalyst's idea that human seek perfection through technology. There's a pervasive idea among geeks that tech fixes everything. There's certainly a hopefulness to tech and even just the internet itself, but tech does not solve problems by virtue of it being tech. And I guess that another part of Synthesis, is that there's no guarantee that having our DNA rewritten will do much of anything to solve problems. It won't guarantee that the Krogan won't still hate the Salarians and Turians. It won't guarantee that the same problems won't still exist. It only guarantees that we all get new software, but it doesn't guarantee that we will fundamentally change our behavior.

 

The "seeking perfection through technology" was just to explain why organics create synthetics. Synthesis removes the need for organics to create synthetics that must surpass them. For synthetics, it lets them understand what oganics' deal is, removing any incentive for conflict from them.  Nobody except Shepard dies and everybody is cool with the Reapers because they now understand each other. Flowers, puppies, and rainbows. However, while it's clear from the Catalyst scene alone, I was particularly talking about this:

 

[Grieving Natashina]

Wow. This thread has been quite the trip to read. Some excellent points, some well thoughtout points, and some silly analogies. I will never be able to look at a banana the same way again.

I'm going to start off by saying that I can see multiple sides of the debate. Through reading, I can see where the favored endings camps lay and why. So I'm not going to claim I'm right or wrong. You guys have the intense debate covered. Also, I got into the series in May of '14, so I'm going off of my post-EC experiences.

To get onto the topic, it honestly depends upon the way I'm playing my Shepard. I do have some personal opinons though:

Control--This is the one choice I will likely never do.

As Shepard: This was the same thing that TIM was after. This buggy half-broken AI was offering her the keys to the Reaper Cars. All she had to do was die and let her mind become uploaded into the machine. The first thing she thought of is, "Sure, this could control the reapers. Or I could go crazy like David did and start killing everyone. Pass on that idea kid"

As a player: One of the things I've noticed in the game is that the difference between someone like, say, Legion in ME2 and Legion in ME3, is that synethics often want to learn from organics. I know that plenty of folks don't agree about EDI (gives themikefest a friendly hug,) but I do think EDI's personality was shaped by the organic people around her.

My point is that, once Shep becomes One With The Machine, I always wondered if s/he wouldn't become more and more distant from their humanity. More machine than mortal, as s/he loses their friends and their connection to the organic world. It isn't absolute power that I think is the problem. If someone loses all contact with the outside world (or only interact electronically, as God-Shep might do) they tend to turn inward. I didn't feel like I took Shepard that far just to have her become the Goddess of the Reapers.

Synthesis: I have choosen this ending before. It was on accident on my first character (long story,) but I didn't reload because it suited her. So with that in mind...

As Shep: On my first Shepard, I got my Captain Kirk on and hooked up with Liara. On that run, my Shep was really big into the whole, "experience the cosmos" and "we are all connected" mentality. That character thought that Synthesis was the best. She didn't entirely trust the Catalyst, but she wanted to see life evolve and was willing to take a chance. She felt that EDI deserved a chance to be fully alive, and that Joker should be happy.

Eh, she was pretty idealistic, admittedly. It isn't my point of view, but RP can be fun.

As a player: That's not very likely to happen again, unless I create another Space Hippie. I think Iakus and others covered it very well. I also don't feel it's right to throw this change on organic life without their consent. As Shepard, I felt like that I spend the series championing the right to free will, and that people should live their lives without interference. That machines and organics should remain separate, but should also work together.

Destroy: Now here we go. This one works for most of my Shepards, and it's my favorite personally.

As Shep: She's exhausted, she's fed up and frankly, if shooting the tube shuts this broken AI up, so much the better. She didn't come here to negotiate with the Reapers. Even as a paragon (which I usually play,) she was sick of being jerked around. She spent most of the series playing nice, and she sure wasn't going to do with the Starbrat. EDI is my Shep's friend in the games, and I've always picked the peaceful path between the Geth and Quarians. However, she felt that EDI would understand. Not to sound cold, but the only Geth she considered a friend was dead.

It was a hard choice for her, but it had to end. No more games, no more BS. No vaguely explained merging of DNA. The Geth sadly joined the billions already dead. She was willing to do the same to get rid of the Reapers completely once and for all. As far as she knew, she would be dying right along with the Geth as she approached that tube.

"Victory...at any cost."

As a player: Everything up above applies, but I also felt it was a great way to book end the series. The first full AI that was rebellious was in ME1. The AI that was stealing the casino credits. "He" (it had a male voice,) gave pretty much the same speech that Harby/Sovy/Starbrat gave. You could either play his stupid hacking minigame, or shoot the tube. I choose the latter, because I didn't want to play games with this thing. Now, with the source of all of the galaxy's major problems in front of me, I had her shoot the tube again.

From my own interpretation, this wasn't a matter of going back to pre-Reapers. Since I do Leviathan before the ending, I felt that Shep gave the galaxy a chance it never had before. No Reapers, and there isn't a not-Cthulu race dictating life. I know that the "Leviathan" race could come back, but I headcanon it to where they know the rest of the races of that cycle would finish the job the Reapers started if they tried again.

That's just my thoughts on it. It's just my interpretation of events, and how I felt by the end. There is a lot of different points of view on this (okay, massive understatement) and I can see validity in many of them. I've enjoyed learning so many opinions and feelings on the endings.

I posted in here for fun anyhow.

[Natureguy85]

Control--This is the one choice I will likely never do.

As Shepard: This was the same thing that TIM was after. This buggy half-broken AI was offering her the keys to the Reaper Cars. All she had to do was die and let her mind become uploaded into the machine. The first thing she thought of is, "Sure, this could control the reapers. Or I could go crazy like David did and start killing everyone. Pass on that idea kid"

As a player: One of the things I've noticed in the game is that the difference between someone like, say, Legion in ME2 and Legion in ME3, is that synethics often want to learn from organics. I know that plenty of folks don't agree about EDI (gives themikefest a friendly hug,) but I do think EDI's personality was shaped by the organic people around her.

My point is that, once Shep becomes One With The Machine, I always wondered if s/he wouldn't become more and more distant from their humanity. More machine than mortal, as s/he loses their friends and their connection to the organic world. It isn't absolute power that I think is the problem. If someone loses all contact with the outside world (or only interact electronically, as God-Shep might do) they tend to turn inward. I didn't feel like I took Shepard that far just to have her become the Goddess of the Reapers.
 

 

EDI most certainly is shaped by the people around her. She is already friendly with Joker in ME2. While people make fun of EDI getting Joker to help rather than any of the more able bodied crew who would be closer, I always interpreted this as EDI saving Joker from being collected.In ME3, she explicitly asks Shepard to help her as she explores being more of a person.

 

As for Shepard, that's exactly what happens. The Catalyst-Shepard is a different entity, referring to the character you played as "the man/woman I was."

 

 

 

Synthesis: I have choosen this ending before. It was on accident on my first character (long story,) but I didn't reload because it suited her. So with that in mind...

 

As Shepard, I felt like that I spend the series championing the right to free will, and that people should live their lives without interference. That machines and organics should remain separate, but should also work together.

 

I have pegged "self determination" as one of the core themes of the series. It's why i hate Synthesis so much. That and "it is not something that can be...forced" was borrowing from "Choice. The problem is choice," from the scene with The Architect from The Matrix: Reloaded, which is my favorite scene in either of the sequels, if not the entire series.

 

 

Destroy: Now here we go. This one works for most of my Shepards, and it's my favorite personally.

As Shep: She's exhausted, she's fed up and frankly, if shooting the tube shuts this broken AI up, so much the better. She didn't come here to negotiate with the Reapers. Even as a paragon (which I usually play,) she was sick of being jerked around. She spent most of the series playing nice, and she sure wasn't going to do with the Starbrat. EDI is my Shep's friend in the games, and I've always picked the peaceful path between the Geth and Quarians. However, she felt that EDI would understand. Not to sound cold, but the only Geth she considered a friend was dead.

It was a hard choice for her, but it had to end. No more games, no more BS. No vaguely explained merging of DNA. The Geth sadly joined the billions already dead. She was willing to do the same to get rid of the Reapers completely once and for all. As far as she knew, she would be dying right along with the Geth as she approached that tube.

"Victory...at any cost."
 

 

This is all well written but I wanted to highlight the two bolded lines. On the first: exactly. Now, new information can change the course of action, but this is too late in the game and the Catalyst says nothing convincing.

 

As to the second, it's nice to hear this from someone else, though others may have felt thesame and I simply haven't seen it expressed. While I cared about Legion and EDI, the game never got me to care about the Geth generally except for during the time in the Reaper consensus, where I was mad at how lopsided to bad Quarians, good Geth it was.

 

From my own interpretation, this wasn't a matter of going back to pre-Reapers. Since I do Leviathan before the ending, I felt that Shep give the galaxy a chance it never had before. No Reapers, and there isn't a not-Cthulu race dictating life. I know that the "Leviathan" race could come back, but I headcanon it to where they know the rest of the races of that cycle would finish the job the Reapers started if they tried again.
I posted in here for fun anyhow.

 

With apologies to those who have read my posts in many similar discussions, I once again give you what ME3's ending should have been like. It even has the ideas of cycles, order, and chaos too!

 

[rossler]

There is no surrendering to the Reapers.

 

And no, they wouldn't just leave on Shepard's command either. Ya don't think the Protheans or previous cycles tried that? Guess what? The harvest still continued regardless.

[Natureguy85]

There is no surrendering to the Reapers.

 

And no, they wouldn't just leave on Shepard's command either. Ya don't think the Protheans or previous cycles tried that? Guess what? The harvest still continued regardless.

 

Who said anything about surrendering. They need to go away. No, nobody else tried that because nobody else talked to the Catalyst.

[dorktainian]

as anderson stated "we destroy them, or they destroy us"..

 

There is no other way.  Control (shep dies) or synthebodge (shep dies) are not alternatives imo..

 

Both Control & Synthebodge result in our obliteration.  Control ends the current cycle, human slusho incorporated into a shep powered reaper.  Synthebodge is the forced removal of diversity and enforced reliance on your reaper bretheren.  Yeah good idea.  Subject the whole galactic community to the fate that befell the Protheans.

 

Just shoot the tube and wake up.