2611 réponses à ce sujet

[Dani86]

What?

 

I really don't understand what you are babbling about. All choices can still have war take place after it. Destroy, control and refuse as well as synthesis all have the potential for war.

 

Of all the things I've seen on this forum your post makes the least amount of sense.

 

 

Funny, I think the same thing about ALL your posts. The only 'advantage' to forcing everyone against their will to essentially be killed and replaced with something else is the nonsensical, hippy-dippy promise that afterward, everyone will understand each other and love each other and there will be peace. If that's not true, why would anyone choose synthesis?!? 

[gothpunkboy89]

Funny, I think the same thing about ALL your posts. The only 'advantage' to forcing everyone against their will to essentially be killed and replaced with something else is the nonsensical, hippy-dippy promise that afterward, everyone will understand each other and love each other and there will be peace. If that's not true, why would anyone choose synthesis?!? 

 

I see words but I don't see any meaning in them. I am starting to suspect you are a troll. Or possibly an alternate account to someone else who want to troll but doesn't want to risk their main account.

 

Either way the AI wasn't interested in galaxy peace for all time. All it was interested in is solving the issue between organic their synthetic creations. No point do I argue that it would prevent any war from happening. Only that it would do as the AI said and avoid the war between organic being and their synthetic creations by bridging the gap between them finally.

[Dani86]

I see words but I don't see any meaning in them. I am starting to suspect you are a troll. Or possibly an alternate account to someone else who want to troll but doesn't want to risk their main account.

 

Either way the AI wasn't interested in galaxy peace for all time. All it was interested in is solving the issue between organic their synthetic creations. No point do I argue that it would prevent any war from happening. Only that it would do as the AI said and avoid the war between organic being and their synthetic creations by bridging the gap between them finally.

 

Just because I am new and disagree with you, doesn't make me a troll. You were the one who first started with the name-calling way back when. I told myself that I would just ignore you because you obviously just like to fight and you are here ALL THE TIME so you are probably just a 13 year old with nothing better to do and no real life experience but  I broke my promise to myself which is my bad. 

 

I understand the AI's bad logic for creating the reapers (save the organics by KILLING  all the organics) and for preferring synthesis. I just don't get why people like yourself (who is presumably organic) would agree with the AI! Who cares if synthesis will prevent the synthetics from killing the organics (because there are no more pure organics left!)? Instead it will be synth-organics killing other synth-organics or maybe new synthetics killing the synth-organics. There is no reason to chose synthesis unless the nonsensical, hippy-dippy promise that everyone will understand each other and the killing will end is true. 

[gothpunkboy89]

Just because I am new and disagree with you, doesn't make me a troll. You were the one who first started with the name-calling way back when. I told myself that I would just ignore you because you obviously just like to fight and you are here ALL THE TIME so you are probably just a 13 year old with nothing better to do and no real life experience but  I broke my promise to myself which is my bad. 

 

I understand the AI's bad logic for creating the reapers (save the organics by KILLING  all the organics) and for preferring synthesis. I just don't get why people like yourself (who is presumably organic) would agree with the AI! Who cares if synthesis will prevent the synthetics from killing the organics (because there are no more pure organics left!)? Instead it will be synth-organics killing other synth-organics or maybe new synthetics killing the synth-organics. There is no reason to chose synthesis unless the nonsensical, hippy-dippy promise that everyone will understand each other and the killing will end is true. 

 

 

No what lead me to the troll comment is the fact you are trying to argue a point I never made. While doing it in a rather hostile way.  That is generally the way forum trolls operate. They try to bring up something that was never said. Argue that point while being as aggressive as possible to provoke a responds from people.

 

And it is a trait you are continuing which only further enhances my suspension.

 

No one at any time has ever declared that any one option would end all war and conflict for all times till the heat death of the universe.

 

Destroy players tend to have the view that the issues between synthetic and organic are not set in stone. That change can happen if given the chance.

 

Control players tend to have the view that with the Reapers the AI Shep can act in the stead of others to fight the battles needed to keep the galaxy at peace. Limiting the loss of life. Which is fairly close to the reasoning behind the increased popularity of drones in US military.

 

Synthesis players tend to have the view that the conflict between synthetic and organic is going to happen. That it will be possible to overcome but will come at a large cost of life. That synthesis is the ending that gives the best of both worlds. Both preventing the conflict before it starts. As well as providing the advancement to a new form of life that all technological species aim for.  Organic's seek perfection though technology. By fully integrating with technology organic's reach the perfection they desire. Synthetics seek perfection though understanding. The integration with tech by organic's allow synthetics to better understand them. Thus allowing them to reach their desired perfection as well.

 

At no point for any of these thought paths. That can vary from player to player. These are more generalities. Does anyone claim there will never be war at any point in time. War is always a possibility.

[Iakus]

I choose according to what suits the particular story I'm trying to tell with a playthrough. I don't usually choose Destroy because I do don't like Hackett's speech and because I'm a contrarian who was told I'm a bad person for my choices.

Good people can still make bad choices 

 

But don't listen to me, I hate all of 'em 

[StarcloudSWG]

The Catalyst claims "Now that we know it's possible, synthesis is inevitable."

 

This may be true. I certainly hope it is true as it would solve the 'problem' that the Catalyst claims exists. As opposed to the one it was programmed to believe exists and acts to enforce, thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

However, that doesn't mean that synthesis has to be done *now* or *under the direction of the Reapers*.

 

Destroy the Reapers.

 

That frees galactic civilization to explore the possibility of synthesis at its own pace, using its own methods, free from interference by genocidal robo-zombies and in a way which preserves individual choice. So that synthesis is not forced, unlike the Catalyst wanting to force it with the Crucible.

[Dani86]

The Catalyst claims "Now that we know it's possible, synthesis is inevitable."

 

This may be true. I certainly hope it is true as it would solve the 'problem' that the Catalyst claims exists. As opposed to the one it was programmed to believe exists and acts to enforce, thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

However, that doesn't mean that synthesis has to be done *now* or *under the direction of the Reapers*.

 

Destroy the Reapers.

 

That frees galactic civilization to explore the possibility of synthesis at its own pace, using its own methods, free from interference by genocidal robo-zombies and in a way which preserves individual choice. So that synthesis is not forced, unlike the Catalyst wanting to force it with the Crucible.

 

I couldn't agree more. Whether the survivors and their progeny decide to make war or make peace with each other or whether they decide to make war or make peace with any synthetics that arise in the future or whether they decide to become part synthetic  themselves in the future, destroy is the only option that gives them the freedom to do so. In a way, what happens in the future is not on Shepard, it is on them. Shepard only takes away the monsters that threaten to kill them all and gives them their right to self-determination back. The more I read the arguments for synthesis and control, the more I am convinced that destroy is the only real option.

In short (too late!), as others have said: Destroy, FTW. 

[gothpunkboy89]

The Catalyst claims "Now that we know it's possible, synthesis is inevitable."

 

This may be true. I certainly hope it is true as it would solve the 'problem' that the Catalyst claims exists. As opposed to the one it was programmed to believe exists and acts to enforce, thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

However, that doesn't mean that synthesis has to be done *now* or *under the direction of the Reapers*.

 

Destroy the Reapers.

 

That frees galactic civilization to explore the possibility of synthesis at its own pace, using its own methods, free from interference by genocidal robo-zombies and in a way which preserves individual choice. So that synthesis is not forced, unlike the Catalyst wanting to force it with the Crucible.

 

You guys really like to ignore the backstory of the AI and Leviathan's don't you. Leviathans were basically rulers of the galaxy. Using their mind control powers to turn every race into a thrall race to serve them. Thrall races engaged in war after war with their synthetic creations. Many cases said thrall race being completely wiped out. This actually instigated the Leviathans to act to stop this problem. Tribute doesn't flow from a dead race.  They created the AI to solve the problem of conflict between the thrall races and their synthetic creations. It's main over riding objective is the preservation of organic at all cost. Which would mean should it come into conflict between organic and synthetic it would always side with organic if push came to shove.

 

The AI studied the issues, the development of societies of countless species and tried time after time to bridge that gap. Be the catalyst of peace between organic and synthetic. Only to watch it fail over and over and over again. It came up with the Reapers as a last ditch final solution since all others failed. Harvesting the Leviathans and all other organic and synthetic life forms allowed them to be preserved in near immortal shells. While leaving the galaxy with enough biodiversity for new organic life to develop and take it's place. Repeating the cycle because it always ends in failure.

 

It is a rather interesting theme with a lot of destroy favor players that they seem to willingly out right ignore every single bit of background information about the AI and it's actions when defending their choice. I mean I do understand the whole logic of the future isn't set in stone. We should be able to make our own mistakes and what not. But the common statement of AI is full of poo. The Leviathans are full of poo. Every bit of information given to use about the AI and the Reapers is pure poo. Because I think destroy is the only option.

 

To be honest it is a line of thinking that I would more expect to show up in a theological debate.

[Elhanan]

I couldn't agree more. Whether the survivors and their progeny decide to make war or make peace with each other or whether they decide to make war or make peace with any synthetics that arise in the future or whether they decide to become part synthetic  themselves in the future, destroy is the only option that gives them the freedom to do so. In a way, what happens in the future is not on Shepard, it is on them. Shepard only takes away the monsters that threaten to kill them all and gives them their right to self-determination back. The more I read the arguments for synthesis and control, the more I am convinced that destroy is the only real option.
In short (too late!), as others have said: Destroy, FTW.

But Shepard is the one being asked to make the choice. And Synthesis is the option that aids organics and synthetics, restores peace, provides answers and fixes to problems, and helps insure a lasting peace of these adjoined species.

[Dantriges]

 

The AI studied the issues, the development of societies of countless species and tried time after time to bridge that gap. Be the catalyst of peace between organic and synthetic. Only to watch it fail over and over and over again. It came up with the Reapers as a last ditch final solution since all others failed. Harvesting the Leviathans and all other organic and synthetic life forms allowed them to be preserved in near immortal shells. While leaving the galaxy with enough biodiversity for new organic life to develop and take it's place. Repeating the cycle because it always ends in failure.

 

Pure speculation. Neither Leviathan nor the Catalyst mentioned something of countless thrall races felled by synthetics. The Reapers were made after the Leviathan cycle. Unless you suddenly talk about every cycle, any other solution it would have tried before that was in the Leviathan cycle. There were probably several but even let´s say 15, 30 or 90 is hardly countless.

Both sources said it analyzed the data, came to its conclusion then started implementing its plan. And IIRC it´s task never was peace. The wiki says something about overseeing organic-synthetic relations or so, not peace.

Let´s not talk about some other fishy stuff between the lines beause speculating is evil.

 

For someone complaining about other people behaving like in a theological debate, making up headcanon as thy please, you are pretty deep in lalaland

[Dantriges]

The AI studied the issues, the development of societies of countless species and tried time after time to bridge that gap. Be the catalyst of peace between organic and synthetic. Only to watch it fail over and over and over again. It came up with the Reapers as a last ditch final solution since all others failed. Harvesting the Leviathans and all other organic and synthetic life forms allowed them to be preserved in near immortal shells. While leaving the galaxy with enough biodiversity for new organic life to develop and take it's place. Repeating the cycle because it always ends in failure.

 

I haven´t checked again but I am pretty sure, that´s actually contradicting or at least embellishing stuff said by Leviathan and the Catalyst.

[dorktainian]

The AI studied the issues, the development of societies of countless species and tried time after time to bridge that gap. Be the catalyst of peace between organic and synthetic. Only to watch it fail over and over and over again. It came up with the Reapers as a last ditch final solution since all others failed. Harvesting the Leviathans and all other organic and synthetic life forms allowed them to be preserved in near immortal shells. While leaving the galaxy with enough biodiversity for new organic life to develop and take it's place. Repeating the cycle because it always ends in failure.

 

It is a rather interesting theme with a lot of destroy favor players that they seem to willingly out right ignore every single bit of background information about the AI and it's actions when defending their choice. I mean I do understand the whole logic of the future isn't set in stone. We should be able to make our own mistakes and what not. But the common statement of AI is full of poo. The Leviathans are full of poo. Every bit of information given to use about the AI and the Reapers is pure poo. Because I think destroy is the only option.

 

To be honest it is a line of thinking that I would more expect to show up in a theological debate.

 

Destroy is the answer.  This is not about Starjar.  Synthesis and Control continue his cycle of madness.  It is preferable to destroy the reapers, ergo saving trillions of lives?

[themikefest]

Good people can still make bad choices 

Ruthless people still can make good choices
 

But don't listen to me, I hate all of 'em 

I like the red.

[gothpunkboy89]

Pure speculation. Neither Leviathan nor the Catalyst mentioned something of countless thrall races felled by synthetics. The Reapers were made after the Leviathan cycle. Unless you suddenly talk about every cycle, any other solution it would have tried before that was in the Leviathan cycle. There were probably several but even let´s say 15, 30 or 90 is hardly countless.

Both sources said it analyzed the data, came to its conclusion then started implementing its plan. And IIRC it´s task never was peace. The wiki says something about overseeing organic-synthetic solutions or so, not peace.

Let´s not talk about some other fishy stuff between the lines beause speculating is evil.

 

For someone complaining about other people behaving like in a theological debate, making up headcanon as thy please, you are pretty deep in lalaland

 

 

Also important quotes:

"You can not conceive of a galaxy that bends to your will."

 

"We were above the concerns of lesser species"

 

"There was no mistake. It still serves it's purpose"

 

"As the intelligence evolved it studied the development of civilizations. It's understanding grew till it found a solution."

 

 

Important quotes:

 

"I was created to bring balance. To be the catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics."

 

"By one's who recognized that conflict will always arise between synthetics and organics"

 

"But or efforts always ended in conflict, so a new solution was required."

 

"But it also proves my solution won't work anymore."

 

"We find a new solution"

 

"The crucible changed me. Created new...possibilities. But I can't make them happen."

[Monica21]

But Shepard is the one being asked to make the choice. And Synthesis is the option that aids organics and synthetics, restores peace, provides answers and fixes to problems, and helps insure a lasting peace of these adjoined species.

Synthesis doesn't restore peace. It grants a peace that never existed between the Reapers and organics/synthetics. The ending slides are about as hopeful as the treaties at the ends of both World Wars. "Oh look! We've made up. Now we'll get along just fine." That's really all you get, and there's no reason to believe that the galaxy will stay peaceful. There's no reason to believe old wounds won't be re-opened. You're inserting absolute truth into a couple of hopeful lines.

[gothpunkboy89]

Synthesis doesn't restore peace. It grants a peace that never existed between the Reapers and organics/synthetics. The ending slides are about as hopeful as the treaties at the ends of both World Wars. "Oh look! We've made up. Now we'll get along just fine." That's really all you get, and there's no reason to believe that the galaxy will stay peaceful. There's no reason to believe old wounds won't be re-opened. You're inserting absolute truth into a couple of hopeful lines.

There also isn't any reason to think that the next synthetic race that is created will be as nice as the Geth are.

 

so this logic is a bit of a double edge sword hurting you as well.

[Dantriges]

Ah thanks. Seems the Leviathan telling deviates a bit then. They never mentioned any other efforts made just analyzed date, enacted its solution. Nothing about peace, just tribute. And no one said anything about countless civilisations which would be a bit weird given the Leviathan´s capabilities. 

[Monica21]

There also isn't any reason to think that the next synthetic race that is created will be as nice as the Geth are.
 
so this logic is a bit of a double edge sword hurting you as well.

I never claimed that the next race of Synthetics would be "nice." I never claimed anything about synthetics after the Geth. So if you want to talk about logic you can talk about what I actually said.

[gothpunkboy89]

I never claimed that the next race of Synthetics would be "nice." I never claimed anything about synthetics after the Geth. So if you want to talk about logic you can talk about what I actually said.

 

 

But you said:

 

Synthesis doesn't restore peace. It grants a peace that never existed between the Reapers and organics/synthetics. The ending slides are about as hopeful as the treaties at the ends of both World Wars. "Oh look! We've made up. Now we'll get along just fine." That's really all you get, and there's no reason to believe that the galaxy will stay peaceful. There's no reason to believe old wounds won't be re-opened. You're inserting absolute truth into a couple of hopeful lines.

 

Which again applies to destroy as well. There is no reason destroy will prevent war from happening with follow up synthetics. The same way you claim it won't prevent war with existing ones.

[themikefest]

There's nothing saying there will be war between the machines and organics after destroy is chosen. The only war, if its going to end up as one, most likely will be organics vs organics. If there is one between machines and organics, how would you know if you're dead?

[gothpunkboy89]

Ah thanks. Seems the Leviathan telling deviates a bit then. They never mentioned any other efforts made just analyzed date, enacted its solution. Nothing about peace, just tribute. And no one said anything about countless civilisations which would be a bit weird given the Leviathan´s capabilities. 

 

They deviate because it is two different perspectives. And the Leviathan you meet is the prodigy of the one that went thought he first harvest. Which means at the very least it their child. If not multiple generations removed from the ones that actually experienced the harvest. Thus the information they have is second hand.

 

How many civilizations exist in ME? Not just the bit main ones but even the lesser ones that haven't yet reached ME level tech yet? Leviathan controlled every planet they came across regardless of tech level. Without relays the travel between planets would take decades if not longer. There would be a wide variety of civilizations in the galaxy. It is inconceivable that  a galaxy as vast and wide with so many different planets would only be able to produce a very small and limited amount of advanced life. Ranking right up there with the idea that we are alone in the universe.

[Dantriges]

So whatever Leviathans tells us is unreliable information.Could be that he quotes a history book or the Leviathan equivalent of the Artus saga. A kernel of truth and a lot of myth.

 

Yeah yeah, whatever. Civilisations below a certain level wouldn´t create synthetics. The Leviathans had a tight leash on their thralls, even from another cluster. If it was such a rampant problem that countless species died, they could simply order certain areas of research, which resulted in the creation of synthetics, to be stopped and their subjects wouldn´t have any other option than to comply. Besides the little thing that they had these Pulse weapons that fry machines pretty well.

[Reorte]

There also isn't any reason to think that the next synthetic race that is created will be as nice as the Geth are.
 
so this logic is a bit of a double edge sword hurting you as well.

No, there isn't, but I'll take the risk for self-determination and the absence of compulsion over forced safety any day.

[gothpunkboy89]

So whatever Leviathans tells us is unreliable information.Could be that he quotes a history book or the Leviathan equivalent of the Artus saga. A kernel of truth and a lot of myth.

 

Yeah yeah, whatever. Civilisations below a certain level wouldn´t create synthetics. The Leviathans had a tight leash on their thralls, even from another cluster. If it was such a rampant problem that countless species died, they could simply order certain areas of research, which resulted in the creation of synthetics, to be stopped and their subjects wouldn´t have any other option than to comply. Besides the little thing that they had these Pulse weapons that fry machines pretty well.

 

No the information is incomplete. Hence why you noticed the deviation between Leviathan and AI's statements. How ever it backs up what the AI states. The AI expands on the information provided by Leviathan.  And neither party has any reason to lie to you. Because neither party is obligated to help or even hinder you

 

You have no idea how Leviathan's worked before with their thralls. The ones you see in game are after the Reapers are created. The only way to see the world and interact with it was though the orbs. We also have no idea if a single Leviathan can control multiple thralls at once. Or what the limit is for them to be able to control. 

 

But the set up they seem to have is much like what the Romans had. They were the apex species all others that they found were subservient to them. Providing tribute of resources they would need. But were left autonomous as long as they didn't try anything. And in turn the Leviathans make sure they were protected and cared for in a fashion.  The line stating that they were above the concerns of lesser beings. Really make it seem like they didn't pay attention to them all that much.  As well as the they couldn't protect them from themselves.  Again makes it seem like the Leviathans gave a lot of power to the individual races as long as they provided the tribute the Leviathan's desired.

 

It is a great chance the Leviathan's did in fact tell their thralls to knock it off. But ultimately disobeyed them in secret with them finding out about it only after the fact once the war was started.

 

Also a civilization doesn't need to have ME level tech for an AI to study it to find the pattern that organic's seek improvement though technology. Even just looking at our history from the start of written history up to the 1800's would show that.

[Monica21]

But you said:


Which again applies to destroy as well. There is no reason destroy will prevent war from happening with follow up synthetics. The same way you claim it won't prevent war with existing ones.

I never claimed that Destroy would prevent war. I only said it would stop the Reapers.