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[Dantriges]

No the information is incomplete. Hence why you noticed the deviation between Leviathan and AI's statements. How ever it backs up what the AI states. The AI expands on the information provided by Leviathan.  And neither party has any reason to lie to you. Because neither party is obligated to help or even hinder you

 

You have no idea how Leviathan's worked before with their thralls. The ones you see in game are after the Reapers are created. The only way to see the world and interact with it was though the orbs. We also have no idea if a single Leviathan can control multiple thralls at once. Or what the limit is for them to be able to control. 

 

But the set up they seem to have is much like what the Romans had. They were the apex species all others that they found were subservient to them. Providing tribute of resources they would need. But were left autonomous as long as they didn't try anything. And in turn the Leviathans make sure they were protected and cared for in a fashion.  The line stating that they were above the concerns of lesser beings. Really make it seem like they didn't pay attention to them all that much.  As well as the they couldn't protect them from themselves.  Again makes it seem like the Leviathans gave a lot of power to the individual races as long as they provided the tribute the Leviathan's desired.

 

It is a great chance the Leviathan's did in fact tell their thralls to knock it off. But ultimately disobeyed them in secret with them finding out about it only after the fact once the war was started.

 

Also a civilization doesn't need to have ME level tech for an AI to study it to find the pattern that organic's seek improvement though technology. Even just looking at our history from the start of written history up to the 1800's would show that.

 

Sure they do. The Leviathan might not know better and it´s their version of "stab in the back" myth. The catalyst wants you to jump into the green beam. Unless the option is not there, then it wants you to push the red or blue botton.

 

Uh I thought headcanon is bad? But ah well nevermind. We saw their kind of enthrallment, they told us that this is how they controlled the galaxy. And they don´t need to exercise control over the whole population, if you can control politicians, manufacturers and educators and are some kind of god since the beginning of sentience of the respective species. Besides they had a spacefaring community, somehow this tribute had to flow somewhere or at least awareness of other species out there. 

 

We cared and protected them doesn´t amount to much then, eh.

And the thrall species were complete idiots because "hey 37 species were eradicated by sentient robots, 41 were killed by networked VI who developed into some kind of network AI, 12 were killed by combining themselves with VI minds, our overlords who have outlawed research und usage of synthetics, so let´s try that, so we can  seek improvement throuch technology, a tech we can never use in the open and will probably kill our species if the inquisition and the populace won´t kill us first for heresy."

[gothpunkboy89]

Sure they do. The Leviathan might not know better and it´s their version of "stab in the back" myth. The catalyst wants you to jump into the green beam. Unless the option is not there, then it wants you to push the red or blue botton.

 

Uh I thought headcanon is bad? But ah well nevermind. We saw their kind of enthrallment, they told us that this is how they controlled the galaxy. And they don´t need to exercise control over the whole population, if you can control politicians, manufacturers and educators and are some kind of god since the beginning of sentience of the respective species. Besides they had a spacefaring community, somehow this tribute had to flow somewhere or at least awareness of other species out there. 

 

We cared and protected them doesn´t amount to much then, eh.

And the thrall species were complete idiots because "hey 37 species were eradicated by sentient robots, 41 were killed by networked VI who developed into some kind of network AI, 12 were killed by combining themselves with VI minds, our overlords who have outlawed research und usage of synthetics, so let´s try that, so we can  seek improvement throuch technology, a tech we can never use in the open and will probably kill our species if the inquisition and the populace won´t kill us first for heresy."

 

Yes the Leviathan lacks first hand knowledge. It gives you the information it was given by its parents or possibly grandparents since we don't know how long it can live.  The AI gives you choices. You accept pressing the red button is valid and that everything that AI tells you will come to pass does come to pass. This means everything the AI tells you about the blue button or green beam is equally true. You can not accept it is telling the truth about one but lies about the other. Particularly when the one you accept as truth is the one that would destroy it and all it has worked for for untold millennia.

 

You can't use in game example to extrapolate what they did before. In game they were in hiding. They could only act outside of their planet that was specifically kept tech free to avoid attracting the Reapers or having knowledge of their existence leaked to the them during the harvest. Was with the orbs which they used to make sure they were never discovered and to continue their own research. Which seems to consist of learning about each cycle's evolution and society based on the books found during DLC.

 

We do know they think of themselves better then all other races in the galaxy. That they are the only true apex species in the galaxy. It just strikes me as odd that being that think they are so much better then everything else would take the time to actually control entire planets and see to the day to day issues of running a society.

 

I picked Roman example because the Roman Empire did that quite often. They would take over areas and leave the existing political systems in place as long as they swore allegiance to Rome and offered tribute in the form of soldiers or goods. In turn they would be protected by the Roman Empire should someone attack them. This system would fit a species that considers it so much better then all others.

 

You can care and protect your child all you can how ever you can't always stop them from doing wrong things. You think every 14 year old girl who was knocked up had parents that wanted that? That every parent that rushes their kid to the hospital because they tripped and landed on their head on their wood or tile floor and is bleeding badly wanted that? And these are people that truely and deeply care about the people under their care. Leviathan probably doesn't care that much so yea them causing their own problems is highly likely.

 

There is a strong mentality that we humans show. It is called "but it can't/won't happen to me". The dangers of drinking and driving are well known in US. Yet every year thousands of people are caught and arrested for it. Thousands more end up killing someone by hitting them while drunk driving. And thousands more kill themselves while driving drunk.  I have no doubt the idea that bad things can only happen to other people because they weren't as smart/prepared/thoughtful as I am would exist else were as well.

 

Pride goeth before the fall.

[Dantriges]

*Yawn* I already told you that I used a mod to snip out the catalyst scene. Two times. If you keep that up, we have to sent the medal for accurate long range telepathy to someone else.

 

BTW I said the same argument several times. If you don´t trust the AI and chose to destroy it because of that reason, you have the problem that you trusted it enough to tell you truthfully, how to blow it up. But I am not sure i said it to you, so well.

[gothpunkboy89]

*Yawn* I already told you that I used a mod to snip out the catalyst scene. Two times. If you keep that up, we have to sent the medal for accurate long range telepathy to someone else.

 

BTW I said the same argument several times. If you don´t trust the AI and chose to destroy it because of that reason, you have the problem that you trusted it enough to tell you truthfully, how to blow it up. But I am not sure i said it to you, so well.

 

And I don't care about your mod.

 

I've always wondered why so many people seemed to dislike the ending. Granted it isn't perfect but not many endings are. But I wondered were all the dislike came from. Then I learned what the ending was like pre extended cut and figured they simply hated that. Because it did in deed suck massively. How ever on forums it became clear that players were against the ending even post extended cut. I've pondered this question long and often and though talks with you and others the solution has finally hit me. It isn't so much that the ending is bad. Though there are areas for improvement. It is that players like you created in your own mind well before hand what you wanted to happen. Your idealized ending that you think should have happened.  When said ending that you wanted didn't materialized you rather then accept the ending that it gave. Turned your feelings into hate for the ending. Hate because things didn't turn out how you wanted them to.

 

So you create ideas and concepts in your own head to validate your dislike. Either ignoring or twisting things in game to validate your statements. When given the chance you mod the ending removing anything you object to and adding in things you wanted to happen.

 

It is an interesting revelation to be sure. Makes me wonder how many other games suffered for similar reasons.

 

Though I suppose this does sort of answer the OP's original question

 

I've been wondering why to some people it was logical to choose other options over the destroy ending - because as Shepard you are tasked to save the galaxy and "destroy" the reapers.

 

Because some people can see beyond simply what they want to see. And this is coming from a player who for two and a half games was ready and willing to blow the **** up out of the Reapers. Even more so because my character was a super paragon nice guy. But from the moment I finished the Leviathan DLC I started to question everything up to that point. By the time I was given the choice I changed from someone who really wanted to stand laughing over Harbinger's burning corpse to someone who saw synthsis as the best option. Even seeing some value in the control option as well. Actually seeing destroy as the least favorite of the 3 options. Seeing how close the Geth came to being the very synthetic issue it warned about. And no way to be sure it wouldn't happen.

 

And this isn't though some filter of the Shepard character I control. This is speaking as me the player. Independent of the limitations any game character would have in terms of gaining or knowing something. Able to reach back into events they wouldn't know about and add that knowledge to the over all final choice.

 

 

Now you are more then capable of stating what I just said is a bigger pile of horse **** then what Hercules had to clean out during his 12 tasks. But it is my interpretation based on the many back and forth conversations with you and others on this forum and else were concerning this game and it's ending.

[Natureguy85]

As opposed to synthetic life, psionic domination, Prothean beacons, thermal clips, Mass Relays, biotics, hair tentacles, etc, etc, etc....

For the Galaxy of Shepard, Synthesis is the win.

 

All of those things are explained in game (except hair tentacles. I can only imagine you mean the Asari and that's just a physical feature). You may or may not buy into their explanation, but they are there in the codex and prevalent in society. Synthesis is more on the level with the Lazarus project where we are just told that they brought Shepard back to life and left to wonder how the hell that happened.

 

 

Your point appears to be the acceptance of part of the lore while tossing what is disliked. When all is accepted, I choose synthesis, as synthetic life is extant in the series.

 

Synthesis is not lore. That is a last minute info dump with no lore behind it.

 

 

You fail to see your own hypocrisy. You have not 1 valid scrap of data that states the Crucible is capable of destroying the Reapers. Everything is based on an:  I think it will destroy them.  I hope it will destroy them. We never got to test it to see if it would destroy them.

 

Then by choosing to shoot the power cable you are making a judgement based on ignorance. Taking what the AI said at face value before making your choice. You then in your own logic despite already making a judgement based on ignorance then claim anyone making any other choice is making a decision based on ignorance. Because you only have the AI's word to confirm it will happen.

 

Which is exactly how Destroy option works.

 

Mmm those details that are rather important are facts like Colonies expanding west ward beyond the agreed on boarder between GB and France. This lead to the little issue in the Ohio River Valley were France were trying to keep their claim.  Blah blah blah French Indian War. GB sends troops to colonies to protect them. Wages a costly war that ultimately wins a major victory for the colonies as they get to expand. GB got a small side portion of reward. Mostly a bit more timber, minerals, etc. Now as anyone would know waging a war. Particularly one that takes months just to get troops to the general area across an ocean isn't very cheap.  Parliament then decided though a democratic set up to impose new taxes on the colonies so they can help pay for the war that was waged to their benefit. Since it was only a colony completely dependent on the Crown this is a lot like a parent decided to cut back on a kid's allowance because they just got them a PS4. And they are kind of short on money.

 

Well you should know history about how they reacted to that. Which is to say badly.  Oh and extra fun fact Boston Massacre. No one actually knows what caused it. The only known fact is that people were killed. That didn't stop Paul Revere from propagandizing it for all he was worth.

 

During the war the US relied almost entirely on the French for weapons, gun powder, cannons and ships. George Washington was selected as leader of the forces not because of his military record which was pretty shite but because of his political ability.  Which is why almost all but a few of his battles end in defeat.

 

And do I really honestly need to bring up the whole complains about the tyranny of the king. Sign a document that states all men are created equal. Yet they all own slaves. And starts to kick Native American's off their land they have had for centuries and selling it as a way to pay for the war. Kept women out of politics for usual asinine reasoning of the time. Oh and only people who owned land could vote.  So much for all men are created equal.

 

Now back to topic.

 

Control and Synthesis peace lasts as long as we can see as well. But I've seen time and time again that people make large leaps of logic to demonize those two.  Even bypassing the questions I ask in terms of Control. Were I set up very simple examples of when Control Shep would act and how different it would be from the Council or similar set up. And was twice by two different people side stepped claiming that isn't the point.  So yea....

 

Again, there is no hypocrisy. You don't understand the argument. Liara tells us from the beginning that the Crucible "could wipe out the Reapers." Now, this isn't explained how and we don't know what it specifically does, but she's pretty confident about her conclusion. I don't like that these details are hidden from Shepard and we don't ever get to investigate or learn about it, but the writers for ME2 and ME3 decided against the illusion of freedom and agency that the first game presented. Shamus Young talks about it in this post:

 

http://www.shamusyou...edtale/?p=30391

 

I'll try to explain this one more time. I acknowledge that I, or more accurately, Shepard, is making the choice on blind trust that the Catalyst is telling the truth. I, as the player, could tell from meta-knowledge about games and stories, but that's separate. Ultimately, I am forced to make a choice and unfortunately, all I have to go on is what the Catalyst says. However, assuming the Catalyst is telling the truth about which does what, I do know what it means to Destroy the Reapers where I don't really know what Synthesis entails because it's so vague. And I don't like what I do get.

 

Most of your history touches on things before the Revolution, not the Revolution itself. Your comments on Washington are way off base. I don't think you understand what it entails for a group of colonies to fight the most powerful military force on the face of the Earth. As for equal rights, yeah, it took time to get there. You act as though those issues were unique to the United States though, which is completely false. Societal change like that takes time, and sometimes even war. But I'm not surprised your ignorance goes beyond Mass Effect.

 

Claiming you are missing the point isn't a side-step. As with many things, process matters.

 

Sorry; cannot toss the actual story. Destroy recycles the entire problem for future descendants; Synthesis fixes it.

 

That's not the actual story. It's just the unverifiable claim of the Catalyst. Like the Reapers generally, it is an unwanted solution to a non-problem.

 

And history has shown this to be true.

 

Advancing in medical technology has saved countless lives.

 

That only proves that some technology can be good.

 

 

What?

 

I really don't understand what you are babbling about. All choices can still have war take place after it. Destroy, control and refuse as well as synthesis all have the potential for war.

 

Of all the things I've seen on this forum your post makes the least amount of sense.

 

I see words but I don't see any meaning in them. I am starting to suspect you are a troll. Or possibly an alternate account to someone else who want to troll but doesn't want to risk their main account.

 

Well, reading is a skill. Though I'm guessing English isn't your first language and that may be part of the problem.

 

 

You guys really like to ignore the backstory of the AI and Leviathan's don't you.

It is a rather interesting theme with a lot of destroy favor players that they seem to willingly out right ignore every single bit of background information about the AI and it's actions when defending their choice. I mean I do understand the whole logic of the future isn't set in stone. We should be able to make our own mistakes and what not. But the common statement of AI is full of poo. The Leviathans are full of poo. Every bit of information given to use about the AI and the Reapers is pure poo. Because I think destroy is the only option.

 

To be honest it is a line of thinking that I would more expect to show up in a theological debate.

 

You need to read more, either stories or about writing fiction. Late infodumps are not proper backstory, particularly when they don't fit with what other elements of the story tell or show us. Leviathan is optional and was added to try and jam in some build up for the Catalyst. Unfortunately, because it was made later, this was obvious to everyone so it didn't come off very well.

 

 

There also isn't any reason to think that the next synthetic race that is created will be as nice as the Geth are.

 

so this logic is a bit of a double edge sword hurting you as well.

 

But you said:

 

 

Which again applies to destroy as well. There is no reason destroy will prevent war from happening with follow up synthetics. The same way you claim it won't prevent war with existing ones.

 

No, because we acknowledge that and don't care. The Catalyst may be right, but we will figure that out. We don't want his stupid Reapers or his stupid Synthesis.

[rossler]

"You can not conceive of a galaxy that bends to your will."

 

I think the same can be applied to this game.

 

A lot of people can't have exactly the ending they want.

 

They have to deal with the ending the game dishes out. Regardless of whether they like it or not.

[Dantriges]

I've pondered this question long and often and though talks with you and others the solution has finally hit me. It isn't so much that the ending is bad. Though there are areas for improvement. It is that players like you created in your own mind well before hand what you wanted to happen. Your idealized ending that you think should have happened.  When said ending that you wanted didn't materialized you rather then accept the ending that it gave. Turned your feelings into hate for the ending. Hate because things didn't turn out how you wanted them to.

Can´t speak for the others, but you adressed me.
Nope, wrong. Bought the game last year, knew what would happen. Watching it myself after playing the game was a nice "Oh hi, what a bunch of crap you are" moment. Sry but the ending even with the EC is still a bunch of nonsense.

[Elhanan]

Synthesis is part of the lore, whether or not one accepts it.

[Monica21]

Synthesis is part of the lore, whether or not one accepts it.

It's lore because it's a choice you can pick in the end. There's no lead-up to it. There's no indication, except for Saren's own modifications and TIM's eyes, that this is a route organics might go. And even then, that's not achieved through a magic space beam, it's achieved through some kind of surgical procedure. There's no indication that any other society tried to achieve Synthesis. The choice presented to you by the Catalyst is unexplained and worthless, not to mention completely incomprehensible.

[Elhanan]

It's lore because it's a choice you can pick in the end. There's no lead-up to it. There's no indication, except for Saren's own modifications and TIM's eyes, that this is a route organics might go. And even then, that's not achieved through a magic space beam, it's achieved through some kind of surgical procedure. There's no indication that any other society tried to achieve Synthesis. The choice presented to you by the Catalyst is unexplained and worthless, not to mention completely incomprehensible.

Having few examples to a new development does not discount it as lore. While some may reject it as being untested, it gains appeal for me when looking at two other options that leave far too many problems. Simply because it is newer than the constant drone of Destroy or Control that has been emphasized during the game does not mean it is not a worthy solution.

Some discount this as space magic, yet readily accept all of the other Sci-Fictional elements already in the series? 

[Monica21]

Having few examples to a new development does not discount it as lore. While some may reject it as being untested, it gains appeal for me when looking at two other options that leave far too many problems. Simply because it is newer than the constant drone of Destroy or Control that has been emphasized during the game does not mean it is not a worthy solution.

Some discount this as space magic, yet readily accept all of the other Sci-Fictional elements already in the series?

I didn't discount it as lore. I actually said, "It's lore." But then I did say that it's completely unsupported in the series as any kind of possible solution.

[Elhanan]

I didn't discount it as lore. I actually said, "It's lore." But then I did say that it's completely unsupported in the series as any kind of possible solution.

I am also addressing others; not only yourself. But simply because you do not feel it is a supported choice does not discount it.

[rossler]

The human Reaper is synthesis in a nutshell.

 

Synthesis is an unsupported solution because Shepard opposes it. The Reapers and their puppets support synthesis.

[Natureguy85]

Synthesis is part of the lore, whether or not one accepts it.

 

Current events are not "lore." It does not become lore until the epilogue, either as a choice or the option chosen. That's if you had the EMS for it and it was even presented.

[Elhanan]

Current events are not "lore." It does not become lore until the epilogue, either as a choice or the option chosen. That's if you had the EMS for it and it was even presented.

But synthetic life is ancient in the lore, and predates Humsn, Turian, Asari, Salarian, Prothean, etc history. So what may be new to use may not indeed be new to older synthetic or organic life. It ain't about meta-gaming info and mechanics; it is accepting a choice made available during the final moments of the game.

[Reorte]

Some discount this as space magic, yet readily accept all of the other Sci-Fictional elements already in the series? 

There are degrees of nonsense, lumping all things fictional together as equal is far, far too big an over-simplification. The rest are also an established part of the setting and attempts at extrapolation from that, rather than something crucial introduced out of the blue at the moment the story demands it. Some form of FTL travel is needed for the setting, and since we don't have one in reality most people accept making one up, for example.

[Dantriges]

Yeah, the "we have elves so everything fantastical goes" argument.

[Elhanan]

There are degrees of nonsense, lumping all things fictional together as equal is far, far too big an over-simplification. The rest are also an established part of the setting and attempts at extrapolation from that, rather than something crucial introduced out of the blue at the moment the story demands it. Some form of FTL travel is needed for the setting, and since we don't have one in reality most people accept making one up, for example.

And the Destroy option removes the known FTL mechanic for some time to come. Wherever organics are when this option is taken will remain there until the Mass relays are able to be repaired; without synthetic aid.

And Synthesis is as agreeable as believing that modern culture actually enjoys synthesizer generated music over the cabin radio, that flowers and candy cost 100 credits, and other accepted parts of the setting. In my case, so much more....

[Ieldra]

Synthesis is part of the lore, whether or not one accepts it.

It is that. But it is also true that the story before the ending has no independent lead-up to it, so that when you're called to make the decision, the unfortunate association with the Reapers pops up in many people's minds. I wrote a novel's worth of stuff about Synthesis on these forums in order to show that the story has other associations quite as valid, and quite as apparent if you're into SF in general, but the ME trilogy before the ending doesn't help you all that much. 

 

The result is that if you have thematic preferences, it's not hard to come up with support for any choice. I dislike Destroy because it thematically reinforces the traditional view that only organic life is true life, and it reinforces the traditional boundaries of the human condition which I have a passion to overcome and invalidate. So of course I choose Synthesis. However, if you don't have thematic preferences, you're likely to end up with Destroy. It's most empathically not the only logical choice, but it is sort of a default, given the story that came before.

[gothpunkboy89]

Current events are not "lore." It does not become lore until the epilogue, either as a choice or the option chosen. That's if you had the EMS for it and it was even presented.

 

zha implanted themselves with symbiotic AI technology to enhance their intelligence

 

Synthesis is lore. Though that synthesis is most likely a form that failed. Like the AI mention trying several similar set ups but them failing.

[BloodyMares]

I always pick Destroy. Breaking a few robots to defeat the Reapers once and for all? No-brainer. I don't understand why would someone care so much about synthetics that they'll risk everything just to not break AIs. EDI and geth will burn their circuits? Just fix them afterwards. Big deal. It's not like they have a spark like Transformers.

[Iakus]

zha implanted themselves with symbiotic AI technology to enhance their intelligence

 

Synthesis is lore. Though that synthesis is most likely a form that failed. Like the AI mention trying several similar set ups but them failing.

If what the zha did was "Synthesis" then it's an even greater reason not to take it, as it was subverted by the Reapers to create monsters.

[gothpunkboy89]

I always pick Destroy. Breaking a few robots to defeat the Reapers once and for all? No-brainer. I don't understand why would someone care so much about synthetics that they'll risk everything just to not break AIs. EDI and geth will burn their circuits? Just fix them afterwards. Big deal. It's not like they have a spark like Transformers.

 

Because EDI and the Geth are alive in their own way. They are intelligent, self aware and display consciousness. They are alive. If the Reapers harvesting organic beings strikes you as bad. Then killing off an entire race is equally bad. 

 

Repairing the very thing that makes EDI and the Geth work would simply create brand new beings. They are who they are because of their experiences. Recreating them has no guarantee that it will create the same beings.

 

A better way to think about it is with cloning. If you died at age 30 and were cloned. There is no way to guarantee that clone will grow up to be just like you. In fact the clone could end up quite the opposite of you.

[Iakus]

Because EDI and the Geth are alive in their own way. They are intelligent, self aware and display consciousness. They are alive. If the Reapers harvesting organic beings strikes you as bad. Then killing off an entire race is equally bad. 

 

Repairing the very thing that makes EDI and the Geth work would simply create brand new beings. They are who they are because of their experiences. Recreating them has no guarantee that it will create the same beings.

 

A better way to think about it is with cloning. If you died at age 30 and were cloned. There is no way to guarantee that clone will grow up to be just like you. In fact the clone could end up quite the opposite of you.

By the Enkindlers, I actually agree with you on this!  

[gothpunkboy89]

If what the zha did was "Synthesis" then it's an even greater reason not to take it, as it was subverted by the Reapers to create monsters.

Zah was a failed one. I'm pretty sure any scientific endeavor ends in failure once or twice or more often. Look up on youtube you can find countless fails during the early days of aviation. Look up the Red Baron's plane and laugh at the ineptitude of how they designed it. With the radiator right above the pilot so one stray bullet and the pilot would be sprayed with scalding hot liquid.

 

Yet military power is heavily defined by air superiority. Plane flights are a multi billion dollar industry.  But you wouldn't think that when you learn about the early days of aviation.