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Why wouldn't you logically choose the destroy ending?


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#976
gothpunkboy89

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No, the Catalyst says that Synthesis is the "final" evolution of life.  WHich is, at best, stupidly inaccurate and at worst, the herald of stagnation which is precisely what Mordin was worried about.

You and Leldra are correct he did state final evolution of life.

 

Waiting for proof how final evolution = no more advances in tech. No more struggles to over come.  Basically want a statement to back up your example from Mordin.

 

Aren't you also the one arguing about synthesis not solving all the galaxy problems and that war can still happen? Which basically disproves your Mordin example right off the bat.



#977
Elhanan

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Is a choice given from the barrel of a gun still a choice?


Had to choose one of them, so the Synthesis choice is not forced any more than the others. And this one appears to help solve more issues and problems than the others, IMO.

#978
BloodyMares

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Had to choose one of them, so the Synthesis choice is not forced any more than the others. And this one appears to help solve more issues and problems than the others, IMO.

Destroy is not forced on anyone. Just Reapers and robots but they don't count.


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#979
Monica21

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Had to choose one of them, so the Synthesis choice is not forced any more than the others. And this one appears to help solve more issues and problems than the others, IMO.

 

And that's the point you keep missing. Synthesis is forced on everyone who isn't Shepard. And there is zero evidence that Synthesis solves anything.


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#980
Elhanan

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Destroy is not forced on anyone. Just Reapers and robots but they don't count.


Then Dominate, Synthesis, and Rejection are not forced either; only the ramifications of each. And being stranded under rubble, or away from home until repairs can be made must be a real joy for organics. Tis OK; a similar thing will likely repeat again for the next cycle.

#981
Iakus

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I'd be careful of Mordin's claims though. He's a scientist, so people tend to overlook that he occasionally spouts as much crap as most other characters when they talk about science, simply because the writers have little knowledge of their subject matter. That limitations drive advancement is a fair point, but his statements about technology exchange are nonsense.

I'd say Mordin has ample evidence to back his claim up, though.  Not just the krogan, but the Citadel COuncil as well.  Society has stagnated thanks to the Reaper trap. Advancement has slowed to a crawl because they just reverse-engineer Prothean tech rather than find their own path.

 

As Legion says:  "Technology is not a straight line.  There are many paths to the same end.  Accepting another's paths blinds you to alternatives"


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#982
LineHolder

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Goddamnit. Every time I think of Legion's ME2 avatar, I shed tears for the destruction the succeeding game wrought on what little hard sci-fi was left in the series.


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#983
Ieldra

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I'd say Mordin has ample evidence to back his claim up, though.  Not just the krogan, but the Citadel COuncil as well.  Society has stagnated thanks to the Reaper trap. Advancement has slowed to a crawl because they just reverse-engineer Prothean tech rather than find their own path.

 

As Legion says:  "Technology is not a straight line.  There are many paths to the same end.  Accepting another's paths blinds you to alternatives"

As a generalized statement, that's rubbish.

 

(1) If you understand how an acquired technology works and you can build its gadgets on your own, it's become effectively yours.

(2) There has never been a "your own path" in all of human history that didn't end in stagnation. The route to success always included openness to ideas from elsewhere.

(3) There is no reason why you can't research along several paths.

(4) There may not be a different path at the point where you are.

(5) What would you call a mindset that If you acquire a technological item from an unknown source, refuses to think about how it could be useful for you just because you didn't make it yourself? I'd call that hidebound.

 

So, I maintain Mordin's stance on this is complete and utter nonsense. It *may* apply to the specific situation, but only for one specific technology, and only because of the specifics of mass-relay technology: that it was designed to be at the same time easy to use and hard to understand. If the story applies it elsewhere, it's wrongly applied, an expression of paranoia and of hidebound thinking, the same unreflected traditionalism that mars the whole trilogy.


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#984
Dantriges

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The context were the krogans. IMO he was talking more about uplifting other species than trading ideas between species on a similar level.



#985
rossler

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The final evolution of life for a Reaper is a Reaper. By choosing synthesis, you agree with this.


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#986
Ieldra

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The context were the krogans. IMO he was talking more about uplifting other species than trading ideas between species on a similar level.

It doesn't work in that case either. Bakara says the krogan almost destroyed themselves before the Salarians contacted them. Also, uplifting isn't primarily about gifting technology.

 

If we look to history for evidence, we'll find a different picture: when the Europeans reached America again in the 15th century, that had a disastrous effect on the indigenous civilizations, while you can be sure the Europeans weren't in the least interested in letting them acquire their technology. On the other side of the globe, some Asian cultures attempted to isolate themselves and "stick to their own path", but that didn't get them anywhere either. Then, look at what happened with Japan after they became more open: they went from hopelessly primitive to one of the most innovative countries in the world in less than 150 years.

 

So I think the problematic step is *contact* between a more advanced and a less advanced civilization. There may be a case for a "Prime Directive", but once contact is established, the less advanced civilization absolutely needs the means to adapt in order to survive, and that includes importing technology until it has established its own tech base. If it doesn't want to adapt, it'll pay a heavy price, maybe even die out.

 

There's also this corollary: if some non-human civilization gifted humanity with, say, FTL drive technology, do you think there there's *any* chance that it wouldn't be used? I don't rule out the possibility that technology can be a poisoned gift, but once you have it, even if it is a trap, the only way out of it is to master it and adapt - if you refuse, you'll be left hopelessly behind and will likely never get another chance.



#987
Reorte

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I'd say Mordin has ample evidence to back his claim up, though.  Not just the krogan, but the Citadel COuncil as well.  Society has stagnated thanks to the Reaper trap. Advancement has slowed to a crawl because they just reverse-engineer Prothean tech rather than find their own path.

Although that isn't particularly more plausible than the claims about Synthesis doing, well, anything. The more complex the technology the closer you need to be to understanding it anyway in order to reverse engineer it (they're not just plugging Prothean drives into their own ships), and you can be sure that the discovery of such technology would have scientists working like mad to understand it, how it fits into what we already know, what the implications of it are, what else it could do, and what other holes in our understanding there are for this to exist, and work like mad to fill those holes and whatever we'd gain from that.

Anyway people go on about stagnation if that's such a bad thing. Change for the sake of change just starts adding obnoxious new rubbish and making a mess of the bits of life people like.
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#988
gothpunkboy89

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I'd say Mordin has ample evidence to back his claim up, though.  Not just the krogan, but the Citadel COuncil as well.  Society has stagnated thanks to the Reaper trap. Advancement has slowed to a crawl because they just reverse-engineer Prothean tech rather than find their own path.

 

As Legion says:  "Technology is not a straight line.  There are many paths to the same end.  Accepting another's paths blinds you to alternatives"

 

How has society stagnated thanks to the Reaper Trap? Society seems pretty active. I dare say society is vastly different then when the Protheans ran things.



#989
Iakus

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How has society stagnated thanks to the Reaper Trap? Society seems pretty active. I dare say society is vastly different then when the Protheans ran things.

Everyone uses the same technology with very little innovation.  Heck thermal clips are a huge change, and they were developed by the geth, arguably the only race to recognize the Reaper trap for what it is.

 

Even going back to the FIrst Contact War, humans (who had been out of their home system for maybe a decade at that point)  and turians were technologically nearly on par with each other.  The turians simply had the advantage of an extra thousand years or so to build up a fleet.

 

The races don't even bother to study the mass relays.  It was only just before arrival that testing had finally indicated that, you know, these things might actually pre-date the Protheans!



#990
gothpunkboy89

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Everyone uses the same technology with very little innovation.  Heck thermal clips are a huge change, and they were developed by the geth, arguably the only race to recognize the Reaper trap for what it is.

 

Even going back to the FIrst Contact War, humans (who had been out of their home system for maybe a decade at that point)  and turians were technologically nearly on par with each other.  The turians simply had the advantage of an extra thousand years or so to build up a fleet.

 

The races don't even bother to study the mass relays.  It was only just before arrival that testing had finally indicated that, you know, these things might actually pre-date the Protheans!

 

 

Everyone uses the same technology he says

 

Everyone is impressed by Prothean Beacon network which is lacking in this cycle

 

And don't even get started on thermal clips. They really make no sense in context. Particularly because the Geth never created them. Only recognized that rapid fire is better for lowering kinetic barriers.



#991
Iakus

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As a generalized statement, that's rubbish.

 

(1) If you understand how an acquired technology works and you can build its gadgets on your own, it's become effectively yours.

(2) There has never been a "your own path" in all of human history that didn't end in stagnation. The route to success always included openness to ideas from elsewhere.

(3) There is no reason why you can't research along several paths.

(4) There may not be a different path at the point where you are.

(5) What would you call a mindset that If you acquire a technological item from an unknown source, refuses to think about how it could be useful for you just because you didn't make it yourself? I'd call that hidebound.

 

So, I maintain Mordin's stance on this is complete and utter nonsense. It *may* apply to the specific situation, but only for one specific technology, and only because of the specifics of mass-relay technology: that it was designed to be at the same time easy to use and hard to understand. If the story applies it elsewhere, it's wrongly applied, an expression of paranoia and of hidebound thinking, the same unreflected traditionalism that mars the whole trilogy.

1) But if you are simply given that technology, are you going to bother looking for alternative methods for doing the same thing?

2) Ideas, yes, but there is a difference between being given a fish and being taught how to fish.

3) Yes, and that is apparently what humanity was doing in researching FTL tech until the Mars archive was discovered.  Then it was all scrapped

4) How do you know unless you try? "Research is the process of going up alleys to see if they are blind"

5) And what would you consider finding a new technology and not even bothering to look for newer or better ways to accomplish what it does?

 

I'd say the Reapers accomplished exactly that.  They left the relay network and enough artifacts to be "found" that the races of the galaxy don't have to do any heavy lifting anymore, scientifically speaking.  Why bother working on better ftl engines when they have the relay network?  Why bother building more mass relays when there are already so many out here?  Why bother researching new areas of scientific discovery when the "Protheans" have already found all this stuff for us?  That line of thinking fattened up the galaxy for slaughter, likely many times.  



#992
Natureguy85

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If you are judged by your work then yes. Our society develops these kind of people. Over and over and over again. Teen goes into a primarily black church and kills a dozen people because they are black. That isn't just his failure that isn't just the parent's failure.

 

 

Our society also develps great people. We largely condemn those like the examples you give. You can point to those influences and wonder if an outcome would be different if some acted differently, but we are free willed individuals and the blame belongs to the person who commits the act.

 

That is societies failure to allow that kind of mentality to even exist.

 

Oh, should we just lobatomize everyone we find with ideas we don't like?

 

 


 The actions during the fight with the Reapers show the galaxy is ready for this next step.

 

Which actions an how so?

 

 

Everyone uses the same technology he says

 

Everyone is impressed by Prothean Beacon network which is lacking in this cycle

 

And don't even get started on thermal clips. They really make no sense in context. Particularly because the Geth never created them. Only recognized that rapid fire is better for lowering kinetic barriers.

 

The Prothean beacons were designed to work with Prothean physiology. None of the leading species in this cycle have anythiing comparable. The Asari are the closest, with their mind meld.

 

You're right that thermal clips are dumb, but they were indeed introduced by the Geth, supposedly for the very reason you mentioned. I do have to wonder how needing to stop shooting for a few seconds for the weapon to cool is more of a problem than not being able to shoot at all when you run out of clips even though you have a huge ammo block still.



#993
gothpunkboy89

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1) But if you are simply given that technology, are you going to bother looking for alternative methods for doing the same thing?

2) Ideas, yes, but there is a difference between being given a fish and being taught how to fish.

3) Yes, and that is apparently what humanity was doing in researching FTL tech until the Mars archive was discovered.  Then it was all scrapped

4) How do you know unless you try? "Research is the process of going up alleys to see if they are blind"

5) And what would you consider finding a new technology and not even bothering to look for newer or better ways to accomplish what it does?

 

I'd say the Reapers accomplished exactly that.  They left the relay network and enough artifacts to be "found" that the races of the galaxy don't have to do any heavy lifting anymore, scientifically speaking.  Why bother working on better ftl engines when they have the relay network?  Why bother building more mass relays when there are already so many out here?  Why bother researching new areas of scientific discovery when the "Protheans" have already found all this stuff for us?  That line of thinking fattened up the galaxy for slaughter, likely many times.  

1) if you are given it then you don't need to look for alternative methods to do the same thing. You already have he technology. You would work on improving said technology rather then start from scratch to achieve the same thing.

 

Guns have functioned the same for centuries. No one has felt need to recreate from scratch a complete alternate method for hand held ability to small metal projectiles at a target because the existing set up works. Instead every update and improvement was aimed at improving the existing technology.

 

2)Are not all species in the ME universe creating their own ships? Their own weapons?

 

Reapers left behind a fishing pole. The galaxy took the fishing pole and figured out what it does and now uses it to fish.

 

3) It was abandoned because they found the ships in the Mars Archive. Which means all that research they were doing could be done using the ships. Literally what they were attempting to create on their own was already in existence.

 

4)What specifically do you mean by unless you try? And specific ME tech that you feel the Reapers trapped us into using that we could have found alternate ways to create?

 

5) Were does it state that no one in the ME universe doesn't attempt to improve on tech left behind?



#994
Monica21

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I'd say the Reapers accomplished exactly that.  They left the relay network and enough artifacts to be "found" that the races of the galaxy don't have to do any heavy lifting anymore, scientifically speaking.  Why bother working on better ftl engines when they have the relay network?  Why bother building more mass relays when there are already so many out here?  Why bother researching new areas of scientific discovery when the "Protheans" have already found all this stuff for us?  That line of thinking fattened up the galaxy for slaughter, likely many times.  

While I agree that there did seem to be a stagnation in technology pretty much everywhere in the galaxy, I don't think we can be certain that it would have lasted. The Protheans were on the verge of figuring out how the relays worked and turned it into the Conduit. And a different civilization was sufficiently advanced to have figured out how to stop the Reapers and designed the Crucible, even if they didn't have time to complete it. At some point, what you want catches up with and surpasses what technology can give you, even as advanced as Reaper tech is, and that's where your limitation is. You can see some of it already with Chorban and the Keepers. 



#995
gothpunkboy89

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The Prothean beacons were designed to work with Prothean physiology. None of the leading species in this cycle have anythiing comparable. The Asari are the closest, with their mind meld.

 

You're right that thermal clips are dumb, but they were indeed introduced by the Geth, supposedly for the very reason you mentioned. I do have to wonder how needing to stop shooting for a few seconds for the weapon to cool is more of a problem than not being able to shoot at all when you run out of clips even though you have a huge ammo block still.

 

So the technology isn't the same.  I don't recall any beam rifle equivalent the Prothean's used while this cycle was still bullets.

 

Never found anything that said they were created specifically by the geth. Do you have proof because I just remember it was created in responds to the Geth attack.

 

The Geth Pulse Rifle is a compact highly-accurate, high-powered, advanced energy pulse assault weapon manufactured by the Geth Armory, which when discharged manifests itself briefly as a sharp, cyan beam ending in an electrical discharge.

 

From Wiki

 

Rapid fire with limited heat generation was how the Geth Pulse Rifles worked in ME1. The electrical discharge is what speed up the shield wear down.

 

Thermal clips were created in responds to that to increase the ability to fire more bullets. Quantity over quality to take down barrier.



#996
Monica21

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Oh, should we just lobatomize everyone we find with ideas we don't like?


I think this is what he thinks Synthesis will do.
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#997
gothpunkboy89

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While I agree that there did seem to be a stagnation in technology pretty much everywhere in the galaxy, I don't think we can be certain that it would have lasted. The Protheans were on the verge of figuring out how the relays worked and turned it into the Conduit. And a different civilization was sufficiently advanced to have figured out how to stop the Reapers and designed the Crucible, even if they didn't have time to complete it. At some point, what you want catches up with and surpasses what technology can give you, even as advanced as Reaper tech is, and that's where your limitation is. You can see some of it already with Chorban and the Keepers. 

 

150 BC parchment was invented

 

1440AD the printing press was first invented.

 

technology doesn't always advance exponentially.



#998
Dantriges

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It doesn't work in that case either. Bakara says the krogan almost destroyed themselves before the Salarians contacted them. Also, uplifting isn't primarily about gifting technology.


Uplift in that context was giving them the technology to fight the Rachni. You could say that it is a particular krogan problem, as they are so aggressive.Perhaps uplift is the wrong word, I used it because I don´t know a better one.
 

If we look to history for evidence, we'll find a different picture: when the Europeans reached America again in the 15th century, that had a disastrous effect on the indigenous civilizations, while you can be sure the Europeans weren't in the least interested in letting them acquire their technology.

Seems the scientific community is divided on the issue slowly moving towards factionalism and disease with fatality rates around 95% as the deciding factors for the indians. Cortez won because everyone of their neighbors loathed the aztecs with a passion. The technology bases weren´t so far apart in the 15th or 16th century and before the natives keeled over en masse, the relationship was a trading one. Anyways a 15th century gun isn´t really that hot, horses and mobility were a bigger factor in that regard. I recommend reading "1491" or "1493" by Thomas Mann as possible starting ponts. It would be pretty hard to condense that stuff into a couple forum posts. And I am really not into a debate based on "my school history textbooks say something different."
 

On the other side of the globe, some Asian cultures attempted to isolate themselves and "stick to their own path", but that didn't get them anywhere either. Then, look at what happened with Japan after they became more open: they went from hopelessly primitive to one of the most innovative countries in the world in less than 150 years.


Considering that the japanese won against the russians 1904 which were considered a major power at that time, you can make that 50 years. The chinese weren´t necessarily against trade at all but getting their land swamped in opium. But yea the chinese totally overestimated themselves and seems they should have better traded their tea, porcelain etc for tech and not silver instead.
 

So I think the problematic step is *contact* between a more advanced and a less advanced civilization. There may be a case for a "Prime Directive", but once contact is established, the less advanced civilization absolutely needs the means to adapt in order to survive, and that includes importing technology until it has established its own tech base. If it doesn't want to adapt, it'll pay a heavy price, maybe even die out.


Yeah it´s more complicated than Mordin´s short statements, but Mordin´s PoV was from the perspective of the more advanced race who gave the krogans the means to play hardball without considering longterm effects. If Commodore Perry and his superiors had known the future, they would left Japan alone probably. ;) Mordin´s analysis seems to be krogan only, who blew themselves up with nukes before they figured out that it´s not a good idea and then handing them weapons to blow things up on a galactic level. 
Seems that Mordin´s statement doesn´t really fit to the stuff we debate.

I can understand Legion´s PoV, Sovereign demanded a steep pice in return after all.
 

There's also this corollary: if some non-human civilization gifted humanity with, say, FTL drive technology, do you think there there's *any* chance that it wouldn't be used? I don't rule out the possibility that technology can be a poisoned gift, but once you have it, even if it is a trap, the only way out of it is to master it and adapt - if you refuse, you'll be left hopelessly behind and will likely never get another chance.


The last thing I would give humanity as an alien, would be something that would allow them to move into my turf.
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#999
Monica21

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150 BC parchment was invented

 

1440AD the printing press was first invented.

 

technology doesn't always advance exponentially.

 

 

....  :mellow: .... okay?.....



#1000
Natureguy85

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So the technology isn't the same.  I don't recall any beam rifle equivalent the Prothean's used while this cycle was still bullets.

 

Ok, that is a better example. It isn't surprising that there would be some variation. However, they do share a lot of technology.

 

 

 


Never found anything that said they were created specifically by the geth. Do you have proof because I just remember it was created in responds to the Geth attack.

 

The Geth Pulse Rifle is a compact highly-accurate, high-powered, advanced energy pulse assault weapon manufactured by the Geth Armory, which when discharged manifests itself briefly as a sharp, cyan beam ending in an electrical discharge.

 

From Wiki

 

Rapid fire with limited heat generation was how the Geth Pulse Rifles worked in ME1. The electrical discharge is what speed up the shield wear down.

 

Thermal clips were created in responds to that to increase the ability to fire more bullets. Quantity over quality to take down barrier.

 

 

From the wiki page on codex entry for weapons: "To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips."

 

From the wiki page on codex entry for equipment: "As such, detachable heat sinks, known as thermal clips, were adopted first by the geth, and shortly thereafter by organic arms manufacturers."