2562 réponses à ce sujet

[gothpunkboy89]

....   .... okay?.....

Was to enhance your point of how tech seemed stagnate but wasn't really. Because they hadn't reached the next advancement yet.

[gothpunkboy89]

Ok, that is a better example. It isn't surprising that there would be some variation. However, they do share a lot of technology.

 

 

 

 

 

From the wiki page on codex entry for weapons: "To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips."

 

From the wiki page on codex entry for equipment: "As such, detachable heat sinks, known as thermal clips, were adopted first by the geth, and shortly thereafter by organic arms manufacturers."

 

 

And cultures thousands of miles apart who have never met share similar mythology.

 

Yet in ME1 the Geth have no such thermal clips design. There is no contact between the Geth and other species until ME3 besides the assault on the Citadel.

 

This is one tech example that is really bad to use. Because of all it is the most obvious shoe horned in tech to fit game play mechanics then declaring something else.

[Natureguy85]

And cultures thousands of miles apart who have never met share similar mythology.

 

Yet in ME1 the Geth have no such thermal clips design. There is no contact between the Geth and other species until ME3 besides the assault on the Citadel.

 

This is one tech example that is really bad to use. Because of all it is the most obvious shoe horned in tech to fit game play mechanics then declaring something else.

 

True, though you're comparing within a species. The technology is similar specifically because the Reapers push Organics down a specific path.

 

The ME1 Geth don't show thermal clip design because thermal clips were made after the events of ME1. So, duh.You're also wrong that there is no contact. The ME2 intro and Anderson tell you they've been fighting Geth still. Who do you think shot Legion?

 

You are totally correct, however, that the explanation for thermal clips was a stupid excuse for changing gameplay from cooldown to ammo based.

[gothpunkboy89]

True, though you're comparing within a species. The technology is similar specifically because the Reapers push Organics down a specific path.

 

The ME1 Geth don't show thermal clip design because thermal clips were made after the events of ME1. So, duh.You're also wrong that there is no contact. The ME2 intro and Anderson tell you they've been fighting Geth still. Who do you think shot Legion?

 

You are totally correct, however, that the explanation for thermal clips was a stupid excuse for changing gameplay from cooldown to ammo based.

 

He also mentions how it hasn't even been considered a war in a long time. That they aren't really putting up a fight. So again if you are trying to use an example this is a pretty terrible one. As for the tech example it was already shown Humans and in deed many other races discovered FTL on their own. Traveling the stars to finally find a Prothean site to take the jump. The sole exception being the Asari. So you really can't say Reapers pushed them down this path.

[Natureguy85]

He also mentions how it hasn't even been considered a war in a long time. That they aren't really putting up a fight. So again if you are trying to use an example this is a pretty terrible one. As for the tech example it was already shown Humans and in deed many other races discovered FTL on their own. Traveling the stars to finally find a Prothean site to take the jump. The sole exception being the Asari. So you really can't say Reapers pushed them down this path.

 

What does it not being considered a war have to do with them changing their weapon technology? Terrible example of what? The game flat out tells you that the Geth invented thermal clips. This is explicit and not left to interpretation. So if you can't grasp that fact, there is no helping you.

 

Where does it say that humans ,or any other race, already had FTL technology before finding the Prothean ruins? I don't recall that. FTL is based on the Mass Effect, which humanity learned from the Prothean ruins on Mars.

[gothpunkboy89]

What does it not being considered a war have to do with them changing their weapon technology? Terrible example of what? The game flat out tells you that the Geth invented thermal clips. This is explicit and not left to interpretation. So if you can't grasp that fact, there is no helping you.

 

Where does it say that humans ,or any other race, already had FTL technology before finding the Prothean ruins? I don't recall that. FTL is based on the Mass Effect, which humanity learned from the Prothean ruins on Mars.

 

Because their weapon advantage was part of the reason they were a threat. Even by the first level of ME2 raiding a Geth outpost is treated as routine like bushing your hair.

 

Geth weapons lack that ability in the first game. After the first game the geth heretic's break because the majority of them were destroyed during the attack on the Citadel. Rendering the remaining ones incapable of effectively fighting back. Saren and Sovergin would have the Geth using the best weapons they could to take the citadel to make way for the Reaper invasion.

 

Them shoe horning a new game play mechanic into the game and trying to validate it is one thing. You trying to use it as an example to show the Geth went some magical other way how ever doesn't work.

 

Gagarin Station (named after Yuri Gagarin, the first human to orbit Earth and colloquially known as Jump Zero) used to be the furthest human-made structure from Earth in the decades before discovery of the Charon Relay. The station came to be known as Jump Zero, because it was the launching point for early failed attempts at faster-than-light travel before mass effect field technology was developed.

 

Eventually, they progressed technologically to the point of colonizing planets beyond their own. On their first three interstellar colonies, the salarians planted settlements named Aegohr, Mannovai, and Jaëto. According to Kirrahe, those settlements "remain at the heart of salarian territory to this day". The salarians were the second species to discover the Citadel, only a few decades after the asari.

[Natureguy85]

Because their weapon advantage was part of the reason they were a threat. Even by the first level of ME2 raiding a Geth outpost is treated as routine like bushing your hair.

 

Geth weapons lack that ability in the first game. After the first game the geth heretic's break because the majority of them were destroyed during the attack on the Citadel. Rendering the remaining ones incapable of effectively fighting back. Saren and Sovergin would have the Geth using the best weapons they could to take the citadel to make way for the Reaper invasion.

 

Them shoe horning a new game play mechanic into the game and trying to validate it is one thing. You trying to use it as an example to show the Geth went some magical other way how ever doesn't work.

 

Gagarin Station (named after Yuri Gagarin, the first human to orbit Earth and colloquially known as Jump Zero) used to be the furthest human-made structure from Earth in the decades before discovery of the Charon Relay. The station came to be known as Jump Zero, because it was the launching point for early failed attempts at faster-than-light travel before mass effect field technology was developed.

 

Eventually, they progressed technologically to the point of colonizing planets beyond their own. On their first three interstellar colonies, the salarians planted settlements named Aegohr, Mannovai, and Jaëto. According to Kirrahe, those settlements "remain at the heart of salarian territory to this day". The salarians were the second species to discover the Citadel, only a few decades after the asari.

 

 

I don't know what the point of the first bit is. The geth having a weapon advantage doesn't mean thermal clips. The game explicitly tells you they developed them after the events of ME1.

 

I never tried "to use it as an example to show the Geth went some magical other way." I merely said the Geth created thermal clips, which they did, because you said they didn't. Please learn to read.

 

On Gagarin Station, please notice the word "failed."

 

I again don't know what your point is with the last part Those are the names of the first Salarian colony settlements. So what? We don't know anything about them, how close to Sur'Kesh they are, or where the Salarians found Prothean ruins.

[gothpunkboy89]

I don't know what the point of the first bit is. The geth having a weapon advantage doesn't mean thermal clips. The game explicitly tells you they developed them after the events of ME1.

 

I never tried "to use it as an example to show the Geth went some magical other way." I merely said the Geth created thermal clips, which they did, because you said they didn't. Please learn to read.

 

On Gagarin Station, please notice the word "failed."

 

I again don't know what your point is with the last part Those are the names of the first Salarian colony settlements. So what? We don't know anything about them, how close to Sur'Kesh they are, or where the Salarians found Prothean ruins.

 

And the game explicitly tell you after Synthesis ending every remains who they are. Yet that doesn't stop players like you claiming they are now brain washed or hacked to be nice to each other.  In fact around 9/10th of all complaints for all endings but destroy is directly going against things the game explicitly tells you is true.

 

So how is thermal clips needing to be taken and accepted as law regardless of how stupidly they put it in. Yet according to you the game endings are completely up for debate even when your arguments go against things the game explicitly tells you?

 

 

You missed the point as humanity was attempting to create FTL drives. Which means with or without Reapers they would have eventually discovered Element Zero and thus created ME fields and FTL drives on their own. As with Salarian there was never any mention of Mars equivalent happening to them.

 

A carbonaceous asteroid, Paeto became notable for element zero deposits. The deposits, which indicate it was an extrasolar capture, were discovered by the salarians shortly before they found the mass relay in the Pranas system.

 

Both show Salarian and Humans as well as I'm sure Turian and Volus started down the rudimentary path of FTL travel before coming in contact with another species who mastered it. Or finding a Prothean ruin and reverse engineering the data to perfect it.

[Iakus]

150 BC parchment was invented

 

1440AD the printing press was first invented.

 

technology doesn't always advance exponentially.

You seem to be forgetting that woodblock printing came between the two.

[gothpunkboy89]

And the game explicitly tell you after Synthesis ending every remains who they are. Yet that doesn't stop players like you claiming they are now brain washed or hacked to be nice to each other.  In fact around 9/10th of all complaints for all endings but destroy is directly going against things the game explicitly tells you is true.

 

So how is thermal clips needing to be taken and accepted as law regardless of how stupidly they put it in. Yet according to you the game endings are completely up for debate even when your arguments go against things the game explicitly tells you?

 

 

You missed the point as humanity was attempting to create FTL drives. Which means with or without Reapers they would have eventually discovered Element Zero and thus created ME fields and FTL drives on their own. As with Salarian there was never any mention of Mars equivalent happening to them.

 

A carbonaceous asteroid, Paeto became notable for element zero deposits. The deposits, which indicate it was an extrasolar capture, were discovered by the salarians shortly before they found the mass relay in the Pranas system.

 

Both show Salarian and Humans as well as I'm sure Turian and Volus started down the rudimentary path of FTL travel before coming in contact with another species who mastered it. Or finding a Prothean ruin and reverse engineering the data to perfect it.

[Natureguy85]

And the game explicitly tell you after Synthesis ending every remains who they are. Yet that doesn't stop players like you claiming they are now brain washed or hacked to be nice to each other.  In fact around 9/10th of all complaints for all endings but destroy is directly going against things the game explicitly tells you is true.

 

 

Where? The Catalyst says it will "alter the matrix of all Organic life in the galaxy." In the epilogue, EDI says "All of us, Synthetic and Organic, have been changed." Note the word "been", meaning this was something external and forced rather than a natural, internal change or development. The worst you can say about the complaints against Control and Synthesis is that they extrapolate beyond what is said, but they do not go directly against it.

 

 

 

So how is thermal clips needing to be taken and accepted as law regardless of how stupidly they put it in. Yet according to you the game endings are completely up for debate even when your arguments go against things the game explicitly tells you?

 

Thermal clips are there. We see them and use them in gameplay. The reason given for their existence is stupid, but that they exist is not up for debate.

 

The only argument I make that goes against what we are explicitly told is the inevitabliity of Synthetics wiping out Organic life because it comes from an unreliable source that doesn't show it's evidence.

 

 

 

You missed the point as humanity was attempting to create FTL drives. Which means with or without Reapers they would have eventually discovered Element Zero and thus created ME fields and FTL drives on their own. As with Salarian there was never any mention of Mars equivalent happening to them.

 

There's no guarantee Humanity would have figured out that technology without the Prothean ruins. Who knows how long that would take if they did? You're right that no specific mention of Prothean technology was made with the Salarians, but it is likely given all the talk of and focus on Prothean technology in the first game as well as knowing the Reapers are trying to push civilization down a particular development path. It's possible they reached the relay without FTL, though that would be harder for a short lived species. I guess we don't really know how well or poorly they age though.

 

 

 

A carbonaceous asteroid, Paeto became notable for element zero deposits. The deposits, which indicate it was an extrasolar capture, were discovered by the salarians shortly before they found the mass relay in the Pranas system.

 

Both show Salarian and Humans as well as I'm sure Turian and Volus started down the rudimentary path of FTL travel before coming in contact with another species who mastered it. Or finding a Prothean ruin and reverse engineering the data to perfect it.

 

All that says is that they found Element Zero. It also says "shortly before they found the Mass Relay." So they may have found the Relay and discovered the Citadel and the Asari before figuring out what to do with the Eezo. They may have figured it out. They are "sciency" and all the Mass Effect at a basic level merely requires electrical current over the Element Zero. However, that they or the humans were trying to figure out something the Protheans or Reapers provided does not mean anything to this conversation. Again, I point to the word "failed."

[gothpunkboy89]

The line that states "As a galaxy we can now live the lives we have wished for" during the epilogue.

 

Humans have been changed as well. Been is a past tense of be. There is not indication of external, internal, natural or unnatural meaning behind it. I have been to the UK. I have been to Mc Donalds. I have been changed thanks to meeting my fiancee. Humanity has been changed due to outside influences. Evolutionary speaking there is a reason the closer to the equator you get the more often the native people tend to have dark skin compared to the further away. The closer to the equator the more intense the heat and sun light is compared to areas away from it. More intense UV radiation caused the human body to evolve darker skin to protect it.

 

So humans have been changed.

 

So again you want me to take a codex entry as law of the land. But you claim the AI doesn't show it's evidence. Even though the AI's speech and words are programmed by the same group of people who created the codex that you are expecting me to take a law?

 

I do hope you really how silly you are making yourself out to be.

 

It doesn't matter if it would have taken 50,000 years for humanity to fully grasp FTL and ME fiels on their own. The fact is they were already on the path. Your complain was the Reapers set up all the paths for the various species to take. But it is shown in game that they already took the steps down that path that would have ended with the same tech Reaper's left behind anyways.

 

This completely disproves your statement.

[Natureguy85]

The line that states "As a galaxy we can now live the lives we have wished for" during the epilogue.

 

Humans have been changed as well. Been is a past tense of be. There is not indication of external, internal, natural or unnatural meaning behind it. I have been to the UK. I have been to Mc Donalds. I have been changed thanks to meeting my fiancee. Humanity has been changed due to outside influences. Evolutionary speaking there is a reason the closer to the equator you get the more often the native people tend to have dark skin compared to the further away. The closer to the equator the more intense the heat and sun light is compared to areas away from it. More intense UV radiation caused the human body to evolve darker skin to protect it.

 

So humans have been changed.

 

Think of it this way: it does not say "have changed." It says "have been changed," which begs the question "changed by what?" The answer is the magic Synthesis wave. In your own examples, you were changed by your fiancee. Humans skin pigmentation is changed by sun exposure. These are outside influences. Shepard forces Synthesis on everyone else.

 

 

 

So again you want me to take a codex entry as law of the land. But you claim the AI doesn't show it's evidence. Even though the AI's speech and words are programmed by the same group of people who created the codex that you are expecting me to take a law?

 

I do hope you really how silly you are making yourself out to be.

 

You can't seriously be putting those things on the same level. The codex entry on thermal clips is the only explanation we get for this gameplay shift. There is nothing to support or deny it and it doesn't affect anything so it doesn't really matter. It's just an excuse for the gameplay shift.

 

The Catalyst and everything it says is part of the main plot. It has to be explained, make sense, and fit with everything else presented in the story. It doesn't.

 

No, but it's clear that this "transcends your very understanding" and is "beyond your comprehension."

 

 

 

 

It doesn't matter if it would have taken 50,000 years for humanity to fully grasp FTL and ME fiels on their own. The fact is they were already on the path. Your complain was the Reapers set up all the paths for the various species to take. But it is shown in game that they already took the steps down that path that would have ended with the same tech Reaper's left behind anyways.

 

This completely disproves your statement.

 

There is a difference between having a destination and actually being on the path to get there. All you know is the former. Even if they were on the path, they didn't get very far until they received the advanced technology of the Reapers. We don't know the research path they were taking, do we? We have no idea where it would have ended.

[Dani86]

You don't have to hate anyone. You simply have to see actions that have been repeated time and time again since we started to keep track of it. What 4 maybe 5,000 years of known development. We still hate each other based on the god question. On the color of our skin or were we were born.

 

5,000 years of development and we are a species that claiming to be the smartest most advanced species on the planet yet rape is still happens.

 

In 2014 in the US alone

 

• There were an estimated 1,165,383 violent crimes (murder and non-negligent homicides, rapes, robberies, and aggravated assaults) reported by law enforcement.
• Aggravated assaults accounted for 63.6 percent of the violent crimes reported, while robberies accounted for 28.0 percent, rape 7.2 percent, and murders 1.2 percent.
• There were an estimated 8,277,829 property crimes (burglaries, larceny-thefts, and motor vehicle thefts) reported by law enforcement. Financial losses suffered by victims of these crimes were calculated at approximately $14.3 billion.
• Larceny-theft accounted for 70.8 percent of all property crimes reported, burglary for 20.9 percent, and motor vehicle theft for 8.3 percent
• Police made an estimated 11,205,833 arrests during 2014—498,666 for violent crimes, and 1,553,980 for property crimes. More than 73 percent of those arrested during 2014 were male.
• The highest number of arrests was for drug abuse violations (1,561,231), followed by larceny-theft (1,238,190) and driving under the influence (1,117,852).

https://www.fbi.gov/...-stats-released

 

You tell me humanity doesn't have a screw loose.

 

You don't throw out a machine because it has a screw loose. You don't throw out the baby with the bath water. You can't just see the dark without acknowledging the light. Seriously, this post made me think that maybe you just need a hug. But then I thought about how you want to forcibly change everyone in the galaxy because you don't like how they act and how you would probably forcibly change all humans (for their own good, of course) in real life if you could and I got over it. Again, I'm not going to spend hours looking for studies and statistics but just look at the world around you. In the US, most humans will die from disease and not from war or at the hands of other humans. Most humans in the US will not be raped or rape anyone in their lifetimes.  In the US, tens of millions of cars are on the roads every day and there are only a few thousand accidents because most people obey the traffic laws  and actually don't want to hurt themselves or others. Millions of strangers bump up against millions of strangers each day and the vast majority of those interactions do NOT lead to violence. Every day, there are millions of small acts of kindness performed by average people (but of course, these don't make the news or make the FBI stats). In the US, there is still homophobia but now gay people can legally marry which was almost unimaginable twenty years ago. There is still racism but a black man was elected President. Things are better than they were hundreds of years ago and they might just be better still a hundred years from now. I'm not sure that the human race will survive the next hundred years without destroying ourselves first but I think we deserve the chance. And the 'people' of the Mass Effect universe deserve that chance as well without being forced to become something else (for their own good, of course). 

[dorktainian]

people are missing one important fact here.  The reapers hands are clean, because they fob off the decision on shepard who is resisting indoctrination.  No matter what happens they can always just shrug their enormous shoulders and say ''Well it aint our fault because shep chose........"

 

Unless we obliterate their arses that is.

[gothpunkboy89]

Think of it this way: it does not say "have changed." It says "have been changed," which begs the question "changed by what?" The answer is the magic Synthesis wave. In your own examples, you were changed by your fiancee. Humans skin pigmentation is changed by sun exposure. These are outside influences. Shepard forces Synthesis on everyone else.

 

 

 

 

You can't seriously be putting those things on the same level. The codex entry on thermal clips is the only explanation we get for this gameplay shift. There is nothing to support or deny it and it doesn't affect anything so it doesn't really matter. It's just an excuse for the gameplay shift.

 

The Catalyst and everything it says is part of the main plot. It has to be explained, make sense, and fit with everything else presented in the story. It doesn't.

 

No, but it's clear that this "transcends your very understanding" and is "beyond your comprehension."

 

 

 

 

 

There is a difference between having a destination and actually being on the path to get there. All you know is the former. Even if they were on the path, they didn't get very far until they received the advanced technology of the Reapers. We don't know the research path they were taking, do we? We have no idea where it would have ended.

 

Changed by the space beam that altered their physical bodies. EDI is still confined to her blue box. That blue box is what makes EDI EDI. It is already known in game that were anything to happen to an AI's blue box like them being transferred it would basically be a personality rest in the AI. If the change was so great then EDI would have been rewritten as a brand new being not the EDI we come to know. Yet the actions at the end of the game clearly show EDI acting as she always has and Joker acting as he always has with her. Particularly if you choose to encourage their relationship.  I'm also very certain that our body forces changes on us due to environmental, external and internal stimuli. The popularity of shoes for example has forced a slight evolutionary change in our feet. Making them narrower and thinner so as to fit into shoes better. Making them less and less fit to actually walk around bare foot.

 

Nothing is forced because the AI specifically states this is something that can not be forced.

 

 

But I am because both lines are created by programmers of the game. Yet you tell me to accept one without question while you claim the other was from a questionable source who didn't show his work or can't be trusted. That is the core of most complaints that the AI is lying or trying to trick you. It is an odd line you draw. Game developers quickly state X to validate the shift in combat mechanics that directly contradicts existing game knowledge. Must be taken as true. How ever game developers create Y statement for the AI to say at the end of the game to fill in the blanks and clearly the AI must be lying or trying to push it's agenda on you. So you must pick destroy option.

 

If you and other players can question the logic, truthfulness or demand the AI show it's work then I can question the truthfulness,logic and demand to show the work of how and where thermal clips came from.

 

Actually we do because the Leviathan's came to ME field technology themselves. In many cases there are only a few ways to achieve the desired goal. Some times there is no other way.  Would you like to share with the class a brand new way to create hand held weapons capable of hitting and killing targets up to 100 yards away. While using technology that doesn't exist in any form yet? How about space travel any new ideas how to alter space travel using tech and ways that do not exist?

 

On this topic you make broad generalities claiming you don't know X or your don't know Y. Without any support argument to claim that X or Y could even be possible. Compared to current set up of Z.  What other ways could the galaxy have achieved FTL travel without using element Zero? The laws of physics for the most part seem to exist in this universe. Ezeo acts as a force that can bend normal physics to allow FTL flight to be achieved. Much like the Warp bubble that envelops a ship in Star Trek.

 

You can not claim there are alternate paths without having a least a shred of proof of said alternate path.

[themikefest]

picking the green is forcing it on the galaxy. doesn't matter what the thing says

 

destroy ftw

[gothpunkboy89]

picking the green is forcing it on the galaxy. doesn't matter what the thing says

 

destroy ftw

 

But it can not be forced.

[themikefest]

choosing the green is not forced, but it is forced on the galaxy

[Elhanan]

choosing the green is not forced, but it is forced on the galaxy

So are the ramifications of the other choices. I choose Synthesis.

[themikefest]

So are the ramifications of the other choices. I choose Synthesis.

destroy has no ramifications at all.

[Elhanan]

destroy has no ramifications at all.

A regression of technology, loss of FTL transportation, overpopulation, etc, and a repeated cycle of war with future synthetics. And no EDI; prefer her to many organics.

[themikefest]

A regression of technology, loss of FTL transportation, overpopulation, etc, and a repeated cycle of war with future synthetics. And no EDI; prefer her to many organics.

 I get to have a future without having the reapers around. Let the galaxy fix their own problems without having giant robots interfere

 

In regards to the former hologram turned platform. I don't care about the thing. Unfortunately Shepard wasn't given the option to throw the thing out the airlock when it became a platform

[gothpunkboy89]

destroy has no ramifications at all.

It has plenty of ramifcation

 

The entire infrastructure of the galaxy is the ability to move good or materials from point A to point B. A planet with less food growing ability could import food from a more prosperous area.

 

Not only are large portions of the galaxy in ruin thanks to Reapers but with the relays gone it would prevent aid or needed resources from reaching them. Without Reaper help it would take a long time to rebuild the relays.

 

Millions would die without aid or food shortages.

[Iakus]

Changed by the space beam that altered their physical bodies. 

So if the Green Space Magic altered everyone to have blond hair and blue eyes as the Catalyst's vision of the "final evolution of life" that would be acceptable?

 

yeah, I went there.

 

 

 

 

Nothing is forced because the AI specifically states this is something that can not be forced.

And yet Shepard forces it on everyone in the galaxy.  Including those who would have opposed it.  Including those clueless to what's happening to them and can't make an informed choice.  Heck, including nonsentient life forms like trees and grass!

 

 

 

 
If you and other players can question the logic, truthfulness or demand the AI show it's work then I can question the truthfulness,logic and demand to show the work of how and where thermal clips came from. 

You realize the entire Conrad Verner conversation about thermal clips sprang from the controversy surrounding introducing them into the game, right?  Bioware has done some pretty illogical things in the past.  The Catalyst and RGB is simply the greatest example.