2562 réponses à ce sujet

[themikefest]

I still pick destroy.

[Monica21]

A regression of technology, loss of FTL transportation, overpopulation, etc, and a repeated cycle of war with future synthetics. And no EDI; prefer her to many organics.

 

These are all assertions that are in no way supported by the epilogue.

[fhs33721]

These are all assertions that are in no way supported by the epilogue.

True (aside from the no EDI part). Neither are 2/3 of the negative assertions people make about Synthesis or Control.

[Elhanan]

These are all assertions that are in no way supported by the epilogue.

From the Wikia:

◾If EMS is substantially low, choosing Destroy will result in massive physical damage throughout the galaxy, as well as the annihilation of most life. Hackett's narrative is different in this ending; his outlook on the galaxy's future is far more bleak.

[Iakus]

A regression of technology

Worth it

 

 

loss of FTL transportation

We'll rebuild.  Or find a new way.  Sure it'll take some time.

 

 

overpopulation, etc, 

On some worlds.  Not on others.

 

 

and a repeated cycle of war with future synthetics. 

Pure speculation.  I do not believe it's inevitable.

 

 

And no EDI; prefer her to many organics.

This is true.

[Iakus]

From the Wikia:

◾If EMS is substantially low, choosing Destroy will result in massive physical damage throughout the galaxy, as well as the annihilation of most life. Hackett's narrative is different in this ending; his outlook on the galaxy's future is far more bleak.

Low EMS Destroy, in addition to a far more destructive burst of space magic, ruptures the relays, destroying the home system of every advanced race and many of their colonies.  In other words:  you fried most of the known garden worlds in the galaxy.

 

I can see that being pretty bleak.

[gothpunkboy89]

So if the Green Space Magic altered everyone to have blond hair and blue eyes as the Catalyst's vision of the "final evolution of life" that would be acceptable?

 

yeah, I went there.

 

And yet Shepard forces it on everyone in the galaxy.  Including those who would have opposed it.  Including those clueless to what's happening to them and can't make an informed choice.  Heck, including nonsentient life forms like trees and grass!

 

 

But it doesn't change everyone to have blond hair and blue eyes. It allows people to integrated on every level with technology enhancing their body beyond the limitations imposed by evolution. They retain who and what they are. And ti isn't just the AI's vision it is all life's vision.

 

It is a little stated thing that is pass over a lot but the Alliance HAD to pass a law limiting voluntary genetic manipulation. People had to be limited in their own quest for genetic modification to improve themselves. Because of possible loss in genetic diversity. Now with synthesis they gain all the modification but without loss of genetic diversity that would normally be associated with it. Over time it would become dominate and eventually the norm for the galaxy.  None modified people would be the minority and ultimately represent only a tiny portion of the galaxy at large.

 

And who would oppose it? Any specific characters that would be directly against it? Javik is the only one to really come to mind. And that is only because he grew up in a socieity that hated all things synthetic. Seeing them as a blight on the galaxy.

[Monica21]

True (aside from the no EDI part). Neither are 2/3 of the negative assertions people make about Synthesis or Control.

 

The problem I have with Synthesis is that it fundamentally changes what it means to be human (or Asari or Turian) not necessarily whatever hippy dippy epilogue it has. The problem I have with Control is the unpredictability of a GodShep, or a God that is made from whatever Shepard used to be. And you can't deny that there's unpredictability. 

 

Sure there are problems with Destroy. The problems can be solved though. If you have a broken relay you can figure out how it worked. The Protheans did, so there's no reason we can't. If you have any broken tech you can rebuild it. That's much more hopeful than any other ending, not to mention the Reapers are actually gone for good this time.

[Monica21]

From the Wikia:

◾If EMS is substantially low, choosing Destroy will result in massive physical damage throughout the galaxy, as well as the annihilation of most life. Hackett's narrative is different in this ending; his outlook on the galaxy's future is far more bleak.

 

Well, then you should probably get your ass in gear and do what Hackett says, and get as many alliances and support as you can. Right? I mean, I'm on a playthrough that will deliberately have low EMS, but that's player choice and that means that Shepard is ignoring things like Grissom Academy, which do help in the war effort. I'm doing it because I want to see what happens when I play it, not because I think it's a good idea for Shepard's squadmates to die on the beam run.

[Dani86]

So if the Green Space Magic altered everyone to have blond hair and blue eyes as the Catalyst's vision of the "final evolution of life" that would be acceptable?

 

yeah, I went there.

 

 

 

The inevitable 'Synthesis Shepard' equals Hitler analogy but I have to admit it's appropriate. It doesn't matter what a dictator's idea of 'perfection' is, forcing it on everyone is wrong.  Shepard is a soldier and as such, she has the right to use whatever weapons are at her disposal to kill the enemy. She does not have the right to play dictator/god to the universe and forcibly change everyone. 

[Iakus]

But it doesn't change everyone to have blond hair and blue eyes. It allows people to integrated on every level with technology enhancing their body beyond the limitations imposed by evolution. They retain who and what they are. And ti isn't just the AI's vision it is all life's vision.

 

You're right, of course.  It doesn't give people blond hair and blue eyes, it gives them green circuitry and glowing eyes.  But the point remains the same, is it okay to change people's genetic make-up to advance an agenda of "perfection"?  I am pointing out this isn't exactly a new concept, and has some pretty freaking unpleasant implications.

 

 

 

It is a little stated thing that is pass over a lot but the Alliance HAD to pass a law limiting voluntary genetic manipulation. People had to be limited in their own quest for genetic modification to improve themselves. Because of possible loss in genetic diversity. Now with synthesis they gain all the modification but without loss of genetic diversity that would normally be associated with it. Over time it would become dominate and eventually the norm for the galaxy.  None modified people would be the minority and ultimately represent only a tiny portion of the galaxy at large.

 

Pure headcanon.

 

And again, messing with other people's genetics "for the greater good" has very unpleasant connotations

 

 

And who would oppose it? Any specific characters that would be directly against it? Javik is the only one to really come to mind. And that is only because he grew up in a socieity that hated all things synthetic. Seeing them as a blight on the galaxy.

Transhumanism is a controversial matter among humanity, as EDI points out.  There are people who would NOT be happy with this, and would see it as the ultimate violation of their bodies.

[Dani86]

Well, then you should probably get your ass in gear and do what Hackett says, and get as many alliances and support as you can. Right? I mean, I'm on a playthrough that will deliberately have low EMS, but that's player choice and that means that Shepard is ignoring things like Grissom Academy, which do help in the war effort. I'm doing it because I want to see what happens when I play it, not because I think it's a good idea for Shepard's squadmates to die on the beam run.

 

I was going to post 'well then, do your job!' but you beat me to it. It isn't hard to get the highest EMS rating and if one fails to, it has no bearing on which choice is more logical.

[Iakus]

The inevitable 'Synthesis Shepard' equals Hitler analogy but I have to admit it's appropriate. It doesn't matter what a dictator's idea of 'perfection' is, forcing it on everyone is wrong.  Shepard is a soldier and as such, she has the right to use whatever weapons are at her disposal to kill the enemy. She does not have the right to play dictator/god to the universe and forcibly change everyone. 

Believe me, I was trying to avoid the direct comparison, as the parallel is obvious and it seemed to be rather gauche to blatantly point it out.  Peer review seriously dropped the ball on this.  If it was used at all.

[Natureguy85]

Changed by the space beam that altered their physical bodies. EDI is still confined to her blue box. That blue box is what makes EDI EDI. It is already known in game that were anything to happen to an AI's blue box like them being transferred it would basically be a personality rest in the AI. If the change was so great then EDI would have been rewritten as a brand new being not the EDI we come to know. Yet the actions at the end of the game clearly show EDI acting as she always has and Joker acting as he always has with her. Particularly if you choose to encourage their relationship.

 

That just means her "brain" didn't change. Her nature, what she is, did. She starts the epilogue by saying "I am alive." On a side note, I wonder what Synthesis does to the fact that she is in the ship still and is operating that body remotely. The body glows green but I don't remember the ship glowing green.

 

 

I'm also very certain that our body forces changes on us due to environmental, external and internal stimuli. The popularity of shoes for example has forced a slight evolutionary change in our feet. Making them narrower and thinner so as to fit into shoes better. Making them less and less fit to actually walk around bare foot.

 

There's nothing natural about Synthesis. It's more like mutation due to radiation exposure.

 

 

But I am because both lines are created by programmers of the game. Yet you tell me to accept one without question while you claim the other was from a questionable source who didn't show his work or can't be trusted. That is the core of most complaints that the AI is lying or trying to trick you. It is an odd line you draw. Game developers quickly state X to validate the shift in combat mechanics that directly contradicts existing game knowledge. Must be taken as true. How ever game developers create Y statement for the AI to say at the end of the game to fill in the blanks and clearly the AI must be lying or trying to push it's agenda on you. So you must pick destroy option.

 

Adding "game development" to the list of things you know nothing about, there are a lot of different writers involved with Mass Effect. Were the lines written by the same person or at least the same team? One is codex and the other is plot dialogue. The writing team changed after ME1, for example, leading to a shift in tone and focus, as well as retcons and other inconsistencies.

Also, the thermal clips are current events or recent history, occurring within the current cycle. It is known to the galaxy at large. Heck, Shepard knows what they are when he gets up for the first time after death. The Catalyst is telling us ancient history we know nothing about, have no context for, and have not experience in the game. If you can't see the fundamental differences between these things, there is no helping you. Go ahead and make up your own BS reason for the existence of thermal clips if that makes you happy.

 

You also seem to have missed where I said that I, the player, knew the Catalyst was telling the truth. I was talking about what Shepard would know or believe.

 

 

 

Actually we do because the Leviathan's came to ME field technology themselves. In many cases there are only a few ways to achieve the desired goal. Some times there is no other way.  Would you like to share with the class a brand new way to create hand held weapons capable of hitting and killing targets up to 100 yards away. While using technology that doesn't exist in any form yet? How about space travel any new ideas how to alter space travel using tech and ways that do not exist?

 

On this topic you make broad generalities claiming you don't know X or your don't know Y. Without any support argument to claim that X or Y could even be possible. Compared to current set up of Z.  What other ways could the galaxy have achieved FTL travel without using element Zero? The laws of physics for the most part seem to exist in this universe. Ezeo acts as a force that can bend normal physics to allow FTL flight to be achieved. Much like the Warp bubble that envelops a ship in Star Trek.

 

You can not claim there are alternate paths without having a least a shred of proof of said alternate path.

 

I'm not sharing my ideas with you. The patents are still pending.

 

You're being more and more ridiculous. You're clearly running out of things to say and should probably quit. Throw R&D on that ever growing list. Some avenues of research are dead ends. Sometimes something looks promising but fails to come through. I never said there were alternate paths that actually reach the destination.  I was disputing your claim that whatever they were researching was the right idea. Again, all we know about it is that the attempts failed.

 

 

 

 

Nothing is forced because the AI specifically states this is something that can not be forced.

 

 

But it can not be forced.

 

And yet it is. This is called a contradiction.

 

 

 

True (aside from the no EDI part). Neither are 2/3 of the negative assertions people make about Synthesis or Control.

 

No, they are supported by the epilogues. They are not explicitly stated, but those assertions are merely the extrapolation or logical extension of what is presented.

 

 

From the Wikia:

◾If EMS is substantially low, choosing Destroy will result in massive physical damage throughout the galaxy, as well as the annihilation of most life. Hackett's narrative is different in this ending; his outlook on the galaxy's future is far more bleak.

 

If EMS is substantially low, you don't get a choice.

[Natureguy85]

Believe me, I was trying to avoid the direct comparison, as the parallel is obvious and it seemed to be rather gauche to blatantly point it out.  Peer review seriously dropped the ball on this.  If it was used at all.

 

Not all Hitler references are Godwin arguments. Hitler wasn't the first (or last) but is just the most well know.

[Elhanan]

Well, then you should probably get your ass in gear and do what Hackett says, and get as many alliances and support as you can. Right? I mean, I'm on a playthrough that will deliberately have low EMS, but that's player choice and that means that Shepard is ignoring things like Grissom Academy, which do help in the war effort. I'm doing it because I want to see what happens when I play it, not because I think it's a good idea for Shepard's squadmates to die on the beam run.

Don't have to; select Synthesis instead.

[themikefest]

From the Wikia:

◾If EMS is substantially low, choosing Destroy will result in massive physical damage throughout the galaxy, as well as the annihilation of most life. Hackett's narrative is different in this ending; his outlook on the galaxy's future is far more bleak.

That's only if ems is below 1750 and destroy is the only ending available

 

from themikefest

 

having ems above 1750, will result in the galaxy rebuilding everything that is destroyed

[Monica21]

Don't have to; select Synthesis instead.

So you're saying that you're just picking the easiest choice.

[Iakus]

Don't have to; select Synthesis instead.

If your EMS is low enough to destroy the galaxy, Synthesis isn't available anyway.

[themikefest]

If your EMS is low enough to destroy the galaxy, Synthesis isn't available anyway.

ems has to be at least 2700 for the green to be available

[gothpunkboy89]

You're right, of course.  It doesn't give people blond hair and blue eyes, it gives them green circuitry and glowing eyes.  But the point remains the same, is it okay to change people's genetic make-up to advance an agenda of "perfection"?  I am pointing out this isn't exactly a new concept, and has some pretty freaking unpleasant implications.

 

Pure headcanon.

 

And again, messing with other people's genetics "for the greater good" has very unpleasant connotations

 

Transhumanism is a controversial matter among humanity, as EDI points out.  There are people who would NOT be happy with this, and would see it as the ultimate violation of their bodies.

 

 

Are we the sum of our genetic make up or are we the sum of our own experiences? Genetics dictate the form you take. Your memories and experiences dictate who you are. Steven Hawking is the best example of that. Genetically speaking he was corn holed badly. But despite getting the genetic short end of the stick that didn't dictate who he is.

 

You are directly stating that everything someone was, is or can be is 100% dictated by their genetics across all levels. Which frankly isn't true.  Your attempt to pull up a contrast between this ending and Hitler is pathetic. Because even if he got his way all blonde hair and blue eyes it wouldn't matter because in their own mind everything would be different. You directly ignore his genetic actions were also followed up with very strict and specific schooling methods in an attempt to get them to think a specific way. And that was they key method Hitler took. Genetics was only a side interest. From the moment he got power he did his best to control the experiences and knowledge people gained to mold their individual minds and personalities to fit in with his personal view points.

 

it isn't head cannon. There isn't anything in the game that stats their genetic diversity was altered due to the change. This is speculation on your part. Genetics provide the form. Since everyone didn't get 6 ft tall, blonde eyes and blue hair instantly shows genetics were not altered. Simply how they are formed.

 

Been a while remind me of the quote EDI has on transhuman and the issue.

 

The implications aren't as bad as you make it out to be. Because again you have no proof to show it turned all genetics to the same. Your argument is based on everyone being the same now. With no relevant information but your own speculation to back that up. Hair color, body structure, height are all driven by genetics. The epilogue still shows people of variety of heights, hair colors and body builds. Which means the genetics were not altered like you claim they were.

[StarcloudSWG]

Incorrect. Genetics WERE altered, forcibly, against the will of people who didn't want to be altered. Not everyone would want synthesis, but they get synthesis anyway. A lack of choice means the change was forced.

 

And synthesis being forced means that the Catalyst was either lying, or the 'synthesis' created by the green beam is not actually synthesis.

[Mrs_Stick]

I'm with themikefeast on this one still picking Destroy

[Iakus]

Are we the sum of our genetic make up or are we the sum of our own experiences? 

We are both.  We are our memories and experiences as much as we are the chemicals in our bodies and the electrical impulses coursing through our nerves.  Screwing with one affects the other.

 

 

 

 

You are directly stating that everything someone was, is or can be is 100% dictated by their genetics across all levels. Which frankly isn't true.  

Good, because I didn't say it.

 

 

 

Your attempt to pull up a contrast between this ending and Hitler is pathetic. Because even if he got his way all blonde hair and blue eyes it wouldn't matter because in their own mind everything would be different. You directly ignore his genetic actions were also followed up with very strict and specific schooling methods in an attempt to get them to think a specific way. And that was they key method Hitler took. Genetics was only a side interest. From the moment he got power he did his best to control the experiences and knowledge people gained to mold their individual minds and personalities to fit in with his personal view points.
 

And you don't find it the least bit creepy that everyone readily accepts this Green Nirvana with no social upheaval at all?

 

 

 

it isn't head cannon. There isn't anything in the game that stats their genetic diversity was altered due to the change. This is speculation on your part. Genetics provide the form. Since everyone didn't get 6 ft tall, blonde eyes and blue hair instantly shows genetics were not altered. Simply how they are formed.
 

Everyone has glowing green eyes and circuitry on their skin.  EVERYONE.  And you think their genetic diversity didn't change?

 

 

 

Been a while remind me of the quote EDI has on transhuman and the issue.
 

 

 

EDI : Mordin sent me a nicely crafted message.  It seems he recalls our conversations about the Salarian's equivalent of transhumans.

Shepard: If I could I'd stop you right --

EDI: Transhumans have some of their brain's abilities, such as memory, supplemented or entirely replaced by cybernetics. Legal definitions vary from planet to planet.  Salarians embrace the concept.  Humans have diverse and contentious opinions.

Shepard: Do my implants make me a transhuman?

EDI: That would be telling.

Shepard: What?

EDI: I'm sorry, that was a joke. You are fully human. Cerberus extensively reconstructed you but your brain fuctions are organic.

Shepard: Don't ever do that again! 

 

 

The implications aren't as bad as you make it out to be. Because again you have no proof to show it turned all genetics to the same. Your argument is based on everyone being the same now. With no relevant information but your own speculation to back that up. Hair color, body structure, height are all driven by genetics. The epilogue still shows people of variety of heights, hair colors and body builds. Which means the genetics were not altered like you claim they were.

 

WE SEE GLOWING GREEN BITS ATTACHED TO HUMAN DNA!!!

[gothpunkboy89]

That just means her "brain" didn't change. Her nature, what she is, did. She starts the epilogue by saying "I am alive." On a side note, I wonder what Synthesis does to the fact that she is in the ship still and is operating that body remotely. The body glows green but I don't remember the ship glowing green.

 

Her brain is what she is. You and another tend to focus that genetics are the sum total of everything someone is or can be. Which just isn't true. I seem to remember someone thinking that genetics were everything trying to push an ideology of an aryian super man. Who at the Olympics kind of lost to a guy named Jessy Owens in track. Despite his idea that these genetically perfect people should have beaten him.

 

There's nothing natural about Synthesis. It's more like mutation due to radiation exposure.

 

Yet it isn't like mutation due to radiation exposure.

 

Adding "game development" to the list of things you know nothing about, there are a lot of different writers involved with Mass Effect. Were the lines written by the same person or at least the same team? 

 

Yet they all have to pass though a leader or manager for final approval. Seriously you claim I don't know anything yet you ignore this rather important factor. This is particularly true since the script is the very first thing they create. Sort of a rewrite or trying a new direction the scrip gives form to the rest of the game. And there would be a head of scrip writing who all suggested scripts would have to pass though to be approved before moving onto the next part. Done to keep consistency in the story line. That other wise would cause inconsistency with multiple groups working independently.

 

You also seem to have missed where I said that I, the player, knew the Catalyst was telling the truth. I was talking about what Shepard would know or believe.

 

And that Shepard that exists is entire 100% pure grade A head cannon. Because my Shepards believe the AI. Yours how ever doesn't. There for it is head cannon you are discussing not facts.

 

You're being more and more ridiculous. You're clearly running out of things to say and should probably quit. Throw R&D on that ever growing list. Some avenues of research are dead ends. Sometimes something looks promising but fails to come through. I never said there were alternate paths that actually reach the destination.  I was disputing your claim that whatever they were researching was the right idea. Again, all we know about it is that the attempts failed.

 

No your argument was the Reaper's dictated organic life though leaving artifacts of previous civilization behind. Thus those civilizations took that single path presented to them rather then developing their own way. I ask you to show other alternatives that could have happened to support your claim. You have nothing and are now trying to deflect it.  Humans were trying to perfect FTL travel. It was abandoned when they found the ships on the Mars Archive that had already perfected FTL travel.

 

FTL travel and Element Zero are the corner stone of all tech and advancement in the ME universe. Unless you can show proof all that was done was possible without use of Ezeo and ME fields then you don't have a stone to throw.

 

And yet it is. This is called a contradiction.

 

Only in your own mind. Humans are amazing in what and how they can alter things in their own mind. Bring up gun control after yet another school, church, movie theater or other place of congregation. And won't take long for someone to bring up the logic of " Well it won't work because criminals don't obey the law so why should there be laws to restrict X or Y" Which kind of ignores the fact that this applies to every law that has ever or will ever exist. People who drink and drive are going to drink and drive regardless of the law. The reason we have such rules against it is to minimize the impact of said acts.  It becomes an inconvenience for some but that inconvenience results in lives saved.