2454 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

Whatever. I don't care. I pick destroy.

And you have the right to be wrong if you wish. Synthesis FTW

[BloodyMares]

We don't know if sapient systems can evolve from nonsapient systems programmed to have the ability to learn. It may turn out they can't, and then all our hypothetical robot war scenarios will never come to pass except from a programming error, but if they can, then the question isn't "why should we build sapient systems" but rather "can we avoid building systems that evolve to sapience".

Well, then I guess we wait and see what IBM Watson will become.

[gothpunkboy89]

This is something I actually agree with you about. It would make sense if the Crucible just destroyed all things Reaper, but how it separates an AI from a holographic keyboard I have no idea, and the game doesn't tell you.

 

 

Yeah what the Catalyst says is nonsense.  How the Crucible works is nonsense.  But the thing is, we're supposed to unquestionably go with it.  We're supposed to take everything the Catalyst says at face value.  Synthesis is the "best outcome" because the Catalyst says it is.  End of story.  We aren't challenged to believe that, we're just supposed to accept it.

 

 

This how ever is a part of fiction. Forces or events happen that as long as you don't look to closely at it makes sense. Star Wars is super popular yet you can't look to closly at things other wise they don't make any sense. The entire Fast and the Furious franchise. Name a movie or tv show that isn't 100% based on reality (IE none of them) and I will show you something that makes sense as long as you don't look to closely at what is going on.

[themikefest]

And you have the right to be wrong if you wish. Synthesis FTW

No I'm not. As soon as the thing says synthesis is the final evolution of all life I had to laugh at that crap. It says its the ideal solution. Why? Oh that's right. The thing is still around to do whatever. So the ending works in its favor. That can't be good. Why would I want that thing to be still around?

 

Destroy gets rid of the thing and its robots. Let the galaxy solve its own problems. Let people have a future without having the threat of giant robots

[corkyspetals]

 

 

In everyday practice, we set human rights absolute, but philosophically, they're anything but.

 

This is an interesting point.  I don't have much experience with philosophy, but I think you made a light bulb turn on above my head.  Human rights are bestowed upon us by other humans.  Rights exist as an agreement among humans how to treat others.  It's up to us to decide how to recognize those rights.  Can human rights be extended to non-humans?  Are sentient being rights the same as human rights?  Humans may want to extend sentient being rights to others (chimps, geth), but do those groups extend those rights among themselves or to us?

 

BTW, I do feel that ME3 made an effort to stir up these questions in the mind of the player.  But just like in real life, at the end we are forced to make a morally ambiguous decision with little  opportunity to reflect on the choices.  At least on the first playthrough.

[Vazgen]

How does destroy manage to only target Reapers, EDI, and Geth. When technology is far more then just the sum of those 3 groups? Every single ship, every single omni tool, every single reactor, ship sensor, thruster, etc should have been destroyed in the resulting blast. The resulting blast should have seen the death toll rise 2 fold as every ship was destroyed killing every person inside, every power plant over load and explode killing anyone around it and starting fires to burn down more, every person in a car traveling at hundreds of kph hundreds of feet about the surface crash.

Tell me technologically how that is possible in game.

What you described is the low EMS. With High EMS, Crucible targets only certain technology (the cutscenes show that it disintegrates husks but human standing next to them is fine).

I have my own interpretation of how it is achieved but you asked for an in-game explanation.

[Elhanan]

No I'm not. As soon as the thing says synthesis is the final evolution of all life I had to laugh at that crap. It says its the ideal solution. Why? Oh that's right. The thing is still around to do whatever. So the ending works in its favor. That can't be good. Why would I want that thing to be still around?
 
Destroy gets rid of the thing and its robots. Let the galaxy solve its own problems. Let people have a future without having the threat of giant robots

Only until it happens again. I prefer the giant robots to be allies.

[themikefest]

Only until it happens again. I prefer the giant robots to be allies.

In destroy they are allies. They are chopped down to size, melted down to be made into parts that are needed to rebuild.

[StarcloudSWG]

And now life has that chance, and it is more effective than Destroy.

 

What makes you think it has any chance? The Catalyst is now in charge of everything. It decides what technology to pursue, it decides where resources get sent, it manages all sapient and non-sapient life in the galaxy now.

 

"We are borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."

[Elhanan]

What makes you think it has any chance? The Catalyst is now in charge of everything. It decides what technology to pursue, it decides where resources get sent, it manages all sapient and non-sapient life in the galaxy now.
 
"We are borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."

The epilogue....

[Dani86]

The epilogue....

 

Trying to debate with you is like trying to talk to a wall. You just repeat the same thing over and over again without reading a word of what people write. It's like the reapers have indoctrinated you.  I'm probably older than most on this board so let me give you some unsolicited advice. If a man claiming to be a prophet asks you to sign over the deed to your house and/or car in exchange for salvation, DON'T do it. If the very same man hands you a cup of Kool-aid, DON'T drink it.  

 

'Synthesis is the answer, this I know,

Because the reapers told me so.' 

[Iakus]

This how ever is a part of fiction. Forces or events happen that as long as you don't look to closely at it makes sense. Star Wars is super popular yet you can't look to closly at things other wise they don't make any sense. The entire Fast and the Furious franchise. Name a movie or tv show that isn't 100% based on reality (IE none of them) and I will show you something that makes sense as long as you don't look to closely at what is going on.

It doesn't have to be 100% based on reality.  It just has to be based on the internal consistency of the series.  Something Mass Effect fails hard at.

[Elhanan]

*snip*

Welcome to the Ignore function; recommended.

[gothpunkboy89]

What you described is the low EMS. With High EMS, Crucible targets only certain technology (the cutscenes show that it disintegrates husks but human standing next to them is fine).

I have my own interpretation of how it is achieved but you asked for an in-game explanation.

 

How is that technologically possible? To differentiate so greatly between what it will target and what it can't target.

[gothpunkboy89]

It doesn't have to be 100% based on reality.  It just has to be based on the internal consistency of the series.  Something Mass Effect fails hard at.

 

But it doesn't fail at all. The game remains and keeps internal consistency though out the story line. I'd even go as far to argue that there are 2 maybe 3 different stories going on in the game. Possibly intentional possibly unintentional it is hard to tell. Those stories are linked to endings. The most basic one being destroy with the other one(s) linked to Control/Synthesis.

 

I state this because a common thread I see particularly with players supporting destroy ending is the stance that reapers are bad, we are good. Bad must be destroyed end of story.

 

The other ending(s) apply to people who see the game with a little bit more depth that exists. And make no mistake there is depth to the game and particularly the Reapers if you so want to look for it.

[Vazgen]

How is that technologically possible? To differentiate so greatly between what it will target and what it can't target.

Do you ask for my interpretation? Or what is shown in the game?

The official canon says nothing about the wave's workings. It just tells us to accept that it can
1) Destroy Reaper technology
2) Destroy everything
3) Change the DNA of all organics
4) Transmit retreat signal

The 1st, 2nd and 4th can be explained using in-game material without stretching the suspension of disbelief too much. That explanation will not be official though.

[Iakus]

But it doesn't fail at all. The game remains and keeps internal consistency though out the story line. I'd even go as far to argue that there are 2 maybe 3 different stories going on in the game. Possibly intentional possibly unintentional it is hard to tell. Those stories are linked to endings. The most basic one being destroy with the other one(s) linked to Control/Synthesis.

 

 

Yeah, there are three different stories.

 

Mass Effect 1

Mass Effect 2

Mass Effect 3

 

Each with minimal connection to each other

 

 

 

I state this because a common thread I see particularly with players supporting destroy ending is the stance that reapers are bad, we are good. Bad must be destroyed end of story.

 

I am not a Destroy supporter

 

 

The other ending(s) apply to people who see the game with a little bit more depth that exists. And make no mistake there is depth to the game and particularly the Reapers if you so want to look for it.

It's got all the depth of a wading pool.  But that's doing a disservice to wading pools

[Monica21]

I state this because a common thread I see particularly with players supporting destroy ending is the stance that reapers are bad, we are good. Bad must be destroyed end of story.

I don't think that many people think the Reapers are inherently bad. They're machines following a program, and it's difficult to assign morality to something that doesn't think or feel. They're just the antagonist. They're a pretty frightening antagonist, given that they want to exterminate advanced organic life, but that doesn't mean they're "bad."

[Dantriges]

It´s nice to be tolerant of other people´s opinions, accept their point of view and work out issues peacefully. Many wars started for a lot of bad reasons. There is a point though, where "let´s put away the guns and talk about our differences" is not an option. I don´t know where this line is exactly, but murdermachines that genocided every advanced spacefaring civilisation for a billion years* because an AI thought "uh that sounds neat" definitely crossed it. I don´care if they think of humanity as some kind of cattle or so to be done with it what they like. That´s neat, I get why you think that but that cow has a gun and doesn´t want to die.

 

*or forced them to ascend against their will and without consent by mashing them like potatoes for you reaper whisperers and AI cultists

[gothpunkboy89]

Yeah, there are three different stories.

 

Mass Effect 1

Mass Effect 2

Mass Effect 3

 

Each with minimal connection to each other

 

I am not a Destroy supporter

 

It's got all the depth of a wading pool.  But that's doing a disservice to wading pools

 

That is were you are wrong they are all connected to each other and they all combined tell 1 single story.  Now is the story flaw free? No. But it is a single story.

 

ME1 introduces the Mass Effect Universe setting up many of issues social and other wise that would play point in next stories. Turian/Batarian and humans not getting along and the whole conflict between Krogan and Turian to name a couple. It also introduces us to the Geth treating them like a standard stereotype evil AI becomes self aware and kills off it's creators. Or at least attempts to. The introduction of Reapers actually existing is limited towards the end of the story line in the first one. While we are aware of their goals we have no understanding of what they can really do beyond indoctrination nor the reasoning behind their actions.

 

ME2 picks up shortly after events of ME1. Sovereign destroyed and the Geth no longer a threat the Reapers pull out their trump card to remove the being most instrumental to their loss. The Collectors which proceed to destroy the ship and kill Shep. The resurrection of Shep shows just how powerful Cerberus actually is compared to the first game were they were more or less bumbling idiots. Though the game play back stories are filled in a bit more about both Krogan and Geth. The realization that not all Geth are like the heretics comes in handy in the 3rd game But as you learn about the Collectors and what they really are you are finally shown the full potential and threat the Reapers can pose seeing what they did to the protheans. We also are shown how the creation of a Reaper actually works.  Destorying the relay build the suspense for next game as it is clear the Reapers after the destruction of the Collectors are now heading towards the galaxy in mass. You buying the galaxy precious months to prepare themselves for the onslaught.

 

ME3 picks up showing the effect of you destroying the relay while it saved the galaxy a few extra months it still had ramifications. When the Reapers finally hit you manage to make it off Earth as they destroy it, capturing and harvesting people. You manage to find plans for a device called the Crucible that ideally would destroy the Reapers but you have no idea if it would actually work. And finally seeing the full threat the Reaper's represent when you see just what they are capable of. As you build alliances with other species you help break down old grudges and barriers that kept the galaxy split and this more vulnerable to the Reapers. You also learn the true nature of Cerberus as you learn everything you thought you knew about them was just a lie to get Shep to do just what TIM wanted him to do.  You also learn the origin and reason behind the Reaper's actions finally solving the biggest mystery in the game. It shows the Geth and by extension synthetics aren't all nice and how close they came to being everything the Reaper's fear synthetics can become. The Heretics with only a few words of encouragement and promise of something willingly choose to kill organics. Showing that even though the Geth are primarily non aggressive. Preferring to be left alone it really really came close to them being really anti organic. Finally you complete the crucible and with your combined fleets you assault the Reapers on Earth. Fighting your way to the beam to reach the Citadel you are finally presented with the Reaper creator and over seer. Who fills in the rest of the Reaper back story and reason for their actions. Presenting you options on how to shape the future.

 

One over all connected story between them. Granted ME2 doesn't advance the plot nearly as much as ME1 and 3 did. But it did provide back story and set up the events of ME3.

 

As for depth there is quite a bit. They aren't waxing philosophically all the time.  Players have claimed there is no proof to the AI's statement about conflict between organic and synthetic. If you just breeze though it yes. The geth seem like harmless beings that at best just want to be left alone. Yet if you actually pay attention to their actions in the trilogy. This is far from true. Beyond the fact they actively attack anyone who enters their space in ME1. In ME2 you learn the Heretics willingly split from the main body of Geth. Sovereign wasn't in direct control of them and they still willingly choose to side with her and kill organics. The only thing that saved the Quarians were a moment of hesitation and the only thing that stopped an all out war between them and the rest of the galaxy was again hesitation. A hair thickness between the geth shown in game and the geth that aren't shown in game.  Yet many players ignore this.

 

That is the depth I'm talking about. Be it intentional or unintentional the set up they have of many species Krogan, Batarian and Geth as the bigger ones are shown how with just a few slight changes things would have been vastly different then what they are in game. This is particularly true of synthesis with Krogan and more specifically Wrev. The only thing that separates those two is the inability for Wrev to let go of the past and embrace the future the Krogan need. Not the past they want to cling to.

[Monica21]

That is were you are wrong they are all connected to each other and they all combined tell 1 single story.  Now is the story flaw free? No. But it is a single story.
 
ME1 introduces the Mass Effect Universe setting up many of issues social and other wise that would play point in next stories. Turian/Batarian and humans not getting along and the whole conflict between Krogan and Turian to name a couple. It also introduces us to the Geth treating them like a standard stereotype evil AI becomes self aware and kills off it's creators. Or at least attempts to. The introduction of Reapers actually existing is limited towards the end of the story line in the first one. While we are aware of their goals we have no understanding of what they can really do beyond indoctrination nor the reasoning behind their actions.
 
ME2 picks up shortly after events of ME1. Sovereign destroyed and the Geth no longer a threat the Reapers pull out their trump card to remove the being most instrumental to their loss. The Collectors which proceed to destroy the ship and kill Shep. The resurrection of Shep shows just how powerful Cerberus actually is compared to the first game were they were more or less bumbling idiots. Though the game play back stories are filled in a bit more about both Krogan and Geth. The realization that not all Geth are like the heretics comes in handy in the 3rd game But as you learn about the Collectors and what they really are you are finally shown the full potential and threat the Reapers can pose seeing what they did to the protheans. We also are shown how the creation of a Reaper actually works.  Destorying the relay build the suspense for next game as it is clear the Reapers after the destruction of the Collectors are now heading towards the galaxy in mass. You buying the galaxy precious months to prepare themselves for the onslaught.
 
ME3 picks up showing the effect of you destroying the relay while it saved the galaxy a few extra months it still had ramifications. When the Reapers finally hit you manage to make it off Earth as they destroy it, capturing and harvesting people. You manage to find plans for a device called the Crucible that ideally would destroy the Reapers but you have no idea if it would actually work. And finally seeing the full threat the Reaper's represent when you see just what they are capable of. As you build alliances with other species you help break down old grudges and barriers that kept the galaxy split and this more vulnerable to the Reapers. You also learn the true nature of Cerberus as you learn everything you thought you knew about them was just a lie to get Shep to do just what TIM wanted him to do.  You also learn the origin and reason behind the Reaper's actions finally solving the biggest mystery in the game. It shows the Geth and by extension synthetics aren't all nice and how close they came to being everything the Reaper's fear synthetics can become. The Heretics with only a few words of encouragement and promise of something willingly choose to kill organics. Showing that even though the Geth are primarily non aggressive. Preferring to be left alone it really really came close to them being really anti organic. Finally you complete the crucible and with your combined fleets you assault the Reapers on Earth. Fighting your way to the beam to reach the Citadel you are finally presented with the Reaper creator and over seer. Who fills in the rest of the Reaper back story and reason for their actions. Presenting you options on how to shape the future.
 
One over all connected story between them. Granted ME2 doesn't advance the plot nearly as much as ME1 and 3 did. But it did provide back story and set up the events of ME3.
 
As for depth there is quite a bit. They aren't waxing philosophically all the time.  Players have claimed there is no proof to the AI's statement about conflict between organic and synthetic. If you just breeze though it yes. The geth seem like harmless beings that at best just want to be left alone. Yet if you actually pay attention to their actions in the trilogy. This is far from true. Beyond the fact they actively attack anyone who enters their space in ME1. In ME2 you learn the Heretics willingly split from the main body of Geth. Sovereign wasn't in direct control of them and they still willingly choose to side with her and kill organics. The only thing that saved the Quarians were a moment of hesitation and the only thing that stopped an all out war between them and the rest of the galaxy was again hesitation. A hair thickness between the geth shown in game and the geth that aren't shown in game.  Yet many players ignore this.
 
That is the depth I'm talking about. Be it intentional or unintentional the set up they have of many species Krogan, Batarian and Geth as the bigger ones are shown how with just a few slight changes things would have been vastly different then what they are in game. This is particularly true of synthesis with Krogan and more specifically Wrev. The only thing that separates those two is the inability for Wrev to let go of the past and embrace the future the Krogan need. Not the past they want to cling to.

[Dantriges]

Oh my.   Yeah let´s tell the plot of the three games in a trilogy trying to prove that the games are connected, in the story forum, this totally is not a waste of your time.

[gothpunkboy89]

Oh my.   Yeah let´s tell the plot of the three games in a trilogy trying to prove that the games are connected, in the story forum, this totally is not a waste of your time.

 

Yet was stated

 

Yeah, there are three different stories.

 

Mass Effect 1

Mass Effect 2

Mass Effect 3

 

Each with minimal connection to each other

 

[Dantriges]

Iakus probably meant stuff like that at the end of ME 3, the complete plot and the actions of the antagonist of ME 1 totally fell apart. Ok the whole plot was in the garbage can as soon as the Reapers appeared after 6 months of flying. Sovereign spent a lot more time gathering allies (ignoring the ones the Reapers already had) and figuring out how to get to the Citadel than it took the Reapers to just move their lazy butts over here.

 

And there are enough other gems like this, where it seems that the writers often forgot what they wrote before.

 

Anyways it would have been polite to ask for clarification instead of posting the whole game story, implying that Iakus didn´t even play the game.

[themikefest]

ME3, being the third game in the trilogy, is the best place to start playing a trilogy