2707 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Iakus probably meant stuff like that at the end of ME 3, the complete plot and the actions of the antagonist there totally fell apart. Ok the whole plot was in the garbage can as soon as the Reapers appeared after 6 months of flying. Sovereign spent a lot more time gathering allies (ignoring the ones the Reapers already had) and figuring out how to get to the Citadel than it took the Reapers to just move their lazy butts over here.

 

And there are enough other gems like this, where it seems that the writers often forgot what they wrote before.

 

Anyways it would have been polite to ask for clarification instead of posting the whole game story, implying that Iakus didn´t even play the game.

 

This human understands

[gothpunkboy89]

Iakus probably meant stuff like that at the end of ME 3, the complete plot and the actions of the antagonist of ME 1 totally fell apart. Ok the whole plot was in the garbage can as soon as the Reapers appeared after 6 months of flying. Sovereign spent a lot more time gathering allies (ignoring the ones the Reapers already had) and figuring out how to get to the Citadel than it took the Reapers to just move their lazy butts over here.

 

And there are enough other gems like this, where it seems that the writers often forgot what they wrote before.

 

Anyways it would have been polite to ask for clarification instead of posting the whole game story, implying that Iakus didn´t even play the game.

 

The end of ME 3 fits with the complete plot and actions of the antagonist of ME1. Your follow up statement makes it seem more like you don't understand the story. So you are forcing your ideas to claim it is bad.

 

Sovergin played it stealthy because a single Reaper couldn't stand up to the combined forces of the Galaxy. When Sovereign was gone they went with plan B. Use the collectors to harvest humans to create a new Reaper to replace the destroyed one. When that one failed they said **** it time to attack. Destruction of the Alpha Relay delayed them but that 6th month period they spend at least a good 2 months taking apart the Batarians to provide the front line troops needed to assault the various planets. Hence why the first level only has Cannibals as enemies. With the other troops showing up as the Reaper's spread to other species colonies.

 

When someone makes an asinine statement like "There is minimal connection between these three games" I feel it is necessary to abridge the entire trilogy. Because you would have to be fairly stupid to not see all the connections between them. The only way there isn't a connection or the story doesn't flow is if you choose to want that to happen.

[rossler]

There's also another answer why there isn't any Quarian, Drell, Salarian, Hanar, Volus, or Elcor Reapers either. There isn't that many of them. Tali mentions this after Thessia. If there's not enough of them, they get enslaved instead of harvested.

 

The first game tells us that some planets had their populations enslaved, while other planets had theirs harvested and turned into Reapers. So planets like Rannoch, Irune, etc would had their populations enslaved, instead of harvested.

 

So it all fits and ties in perfectly.

[Natureguy85]

No I think your attempt to liken what the Reaper's did to the Protheans to what Synthesis ending did is very very unimaginably stupid statement. Your supporting reason only helps support this conclusion at the unbelievably asinine statement it actually is.  Collectors, Husks, Brutes, Cannibals, etc are all technology dominating organic bodies to create troops for the Reapers. Brutes and Collectors only exist because the Reaper Tech is forcibly keeping them alive. Collectors didn't just have how their genetic code is formed the Reapers out right removed entire genetic sequences.

 

You continue to miss the point of my statement. Why I have no idea unless you just like being argumentative for no real reason.

 

You can try an argue against it, but it's hardly stupid or asinine. The Catalyst claims to be preserving previous species by

dumping their slurry into a Synthetic body. Saren talks about combining Organic and Synthetic, which is exactly what the Collectors are.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=VJIQfmWx3dI

 

It's not likely that I missed your point, but rather you hide behind that claim when I debunk or dismiss it. If not, then the most likely culprit is your poor communication skills.

 

 

 

Because all life will become symbiotic; not one form dominating another. And Eden is reportedly green, too.

 

Does this mean I couldn't eat meat anymore? That takes Synthesis off the table. Although plants get Synthesized too... what do they eat?

 

 

 

Not quite. Husks become part organic; their own race.

 

So do they all go insane after regaining sapience and realizing what a monstrosity they are, what they've done, and what was taken from them?

 

 

 

PS, the definition of faith: 'strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.' If there is any proof or evidence, by definition, it's not faith. 

 

The second statement is certainly false. Evidence and proof are not the same thing. You may trust a fried to keep a promise because they have always done so in the past. That trust is faith in that person. It is based on their past actions, which are your evidence, though not proof, that they will come through for you this time as well. Not all faith need be blind. Again, this is off topic, but I found it worth addressing.

 

 

 

And the epilogue clearly indicates this is incorrect. Ignoring the facts is unwise.

 

It only indicates that as far into the future as the epilogue goes. We can claim that such a thing will happen at some unspecified point in the future just as readily as others claim Synthetics will rise up and kill all Organics at some unspecified  point in the future.

 

 

 

 

That's not an answer. You're avoiding the fact that the choice you make is likely an unwanted choice by trillions of organics. But your choice changes everything about what makes them who they are, because you've made a subjective determination about what's "best" instead of allowing organics to determine their own fate.

 

The latter being one of the themes of the series, which is why I hate Synthesis so much.

 

 

 

For the majority of the story, it is about Destroy or Control. Then in the eleventh hour, we are then given the choices of Synthesis or do nothing. As others are not available or aware of these latter options, it falls on Shepard to choose. In this case via Shepard, I choose the option that repairs more problems, and pacifies the Reapers.

 

That late introduction is a narrative problem and is not a good thing. Now you don't seem to care about narrative but only your role play, so this won't matter to you. That's totally fine.

Why should we pacify the Reapers by accomplishing their ultimate objective? They are the enemy.

 

As far as others not being aware so Shepard must choose; why? Much like the problem with the Racni i Queen, there is no reason this choice needs to be made right at that moment.

 

 

 

 

Nobody is opposed at the time the decision is being made because they are not even aware of it.

 

So they are not for it either. It is still being forced upon them.

 

 

 

 

Yep, but for the past years since the discovery of Mass Effect, the various fleets and cultures are based around it. Now it is going to be revamped to work without Mass Relays, it will be like going from electricity to gas lights.

And while pics of stranded refugees aren't shown, it is a given; the FTL bus ain't going to make a stop anytime soon.

 

Originally, yes. However, this complaint led to changes in the scene for the Extended Cut. This is why the Relays don't explode as violently and the epilogue says everything can be rebuilt. It shows how poorly though out the original endings were.

 

 

 

 

 

Emphasis mine. You don't have a right, according to a bunch of people who are much smarter than you and me, to invade my person because of what you believe. This really is as simple as the hair color and eye color question. If the Catalyst told you that everyone needed to have blond hair and blue eyes for life to flourish, would you do that too? Because it "fixes" everything?

 

I just have to point out that the UN is not populated by a bunch of people who are much smarter than you and me.  However, many of those things in the list were borrowed from the US Declaration of Independence, US Constitution, and the philosophers that informed the writers of those documents, many or all of whom were indeed smarter than us in many ways.

[Natureguy85]

You're cherry-picking though. Unless you come out and admit that you value the right to life of synthetics as less than the right to self-determination of everyone else, and that you value people's biochemical integrity as higher than the life of the synthetics *and* everyone's right to self-determination.

 

The ending is a calculus of values. All are important, but no ending preserves everything and so people have to decide based on what they value more and less. There is no more or less correct choice because there is no more or less correct value hierarchy.

 

This is true. The series certainly pushed the idea that Synthetics are as much "life" as Organics. Your decision will hinge at least in part on how much you bought that idea. If you do, then Destroy will be less appealing. If you value free will, Control and Synthesis will seem less appealing.

 

 

 

 

That's debatable.

 

In everyday practice, we set human rights absolute, but philosophically, they're anything but. We like our stories to affirm our values, but a point can be made that it's much more interesting to challenge them. The problem of the ME trilogy isn't that it did this, but that it did this at the end of a story where an unreflected feel-good morality was affirmed at every step. It might as well be the story that came before which was at fault. 

 

Actually, I philosophically view human rights as absolute. We would just debate on what constitutes a "right."

 

Anyway, while you accurately describe how the ending didn't fit the story, that is not a fault of the earlier story. ME1 was great. ME2's plot sucked but the character stories were great. There was a lot of room to work and they chose a path that was disconnected from what came before.

 

 

 

 

How does destroy manage to only target Reapers, EDI, and Geth. When technology is far more then just the sum of those 3 groups? Every single ship, every single omni tool, every single reactor, ship sensor, thruster, etc should have been destroyed in the resulting blast. The resulting blast should have seen the death toll rise 2 fold as every ship was destroyed killing every person inside, every power plant over load and explode killing anyone around it and starting fires to burn down more, every person in a car traveling at hundreds of kph hundreds of feet about the surface crash.

 

Tell me technologically how that is possible in game.

 

This is something I actually agree with you about. It would make sense if the Crucible just destroyed all things Reaper, but how it separates an AI from a holographic keyboard I have no idea, and the game doesn't tell you.

 

How is that technologically possible? To differentiate so greatly between what it will target and what it can't target.

 

 

Easy. The simplest is that it's just a self destruct or shutdown command for Reapers. Additionally, we saw in the Geth Consensus that Reaper code is different. Much like an organic virus targets particular cells, so can a computer virus or program target specific types of computer code, in this case Reaper run times or whatever.

 

 

 

 

I guess I just don't see that. It's on our own heads if we're unquestioning about it. If you don't value authority much in the first place, you're not going to simply be unquestioning.

 

You gotta be Kirk in ST: 5. Like I quoted earlier: "What does God need with a starship?"

 

That depends on if you mean as the character or the player. I didn't question the Catalyst as a player because everything I know about games and stories told me this was the end and it was telling me the truth to wrap up the game. I could have been wrong, but I was not.

 

 

This is an interesting point.  I don't have much experience with philosophy, but I think you made a light bulb turn on above my head.  Human rights are bestowed upon us by other humans.  Rights exist as an agreement among humans how to treat others.  It's up to us to decide how to recognize those rights.  Can human rights be extended to non-humans?  Are sentient being rights the same as human rights?  Humans may want to extend sentient being rights to others (chimps, geth), but do those groups extend those rights among themselves or to us?

 

Not mine, thus my earlier comment on philosophy.

 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,..."

 

 

 

Welcome to the Ignore function; recommended.

 

Big man.

 

 

 

But it doesn't fail at all. The game remains and keeps internal consistency though out the story line. I'd even go as far to argue that there are 2 maybe 3 different stories going on in the game. Possibly intentional possibly unintentional it is hard to tell. Those stories are linked to endings. The most basic one being destroy with the other one(s) linked to Control/Synthesis.

 

I state this because a common thread I see particularly with players supporting destroy ending is the stance that reapers are bad, we are good. Bad must be destroyed end of story.

 

The other ending(s) apply to people who see the game with a little bit more depth that exists. And make no mistake there is depth to the game and particularly the Reapers if you so want to look for it.

 

It definitely does not retain internal consistency. The second two games do not tell the story set up by the first. If you can't see that, you haven't been paying attention or don't want to.

The Reapers are bad. You can say they aren't evil, but that's different.

 

 

 

I don't think that many people think the Reapers are inherently bad. They're machines following a program, and it's difficult to assign morality to something that doesn't think or feel. They're just the antagonist. They're a pretty frightening antagonist, given that they want to exterminate advanced organic life, but that doesn't mean they're "bad."

 

That depends on what you mean by "inherently bad." You could argue that they are not "evil", as they are just following a program. However, they are most certainly bad. All they do is kill things and are totally unnecessary. They need to go away.

[Natureguy85]

That is were you are wrong they are all connected to each other and they all combined tell 1 single story.  Now is the story flaw free? No. But it is a single story.

 

[Loose plot recap]

 

They are connected loosely by being in the same galaxy and involving the same characters. The actual plot is a disconnected mess.

 

ME1 established the Reapers and that they were coming to kill everyone. Sovereign had nothing but contempt for both Organic life and the Geth. It ends with the destruction of Sovereign and Shepard's promise to find a way to beat the Reapers. This left the door wide open for a sequel.

 

ME2 gave us a new opponent with a minimal connection to the Reapers whose actions and existence didn't make much sense in light of the first game. Cerberus was elevated to prominence for no real reason. We learned little and were no closer to defeating the Reapers at the end than at the beginning. That the Collectors were the Protheans didn't add much. Sure, it is horrific, but the Reapers were already our enemies and we had reason enough to oppose them. Arrival bought the galaxy a few months after they had done nothing for two years. They did little in those months and certainly weren't prepared.

 

ME3 further elevated Cerberus and changed the focus from "stop the Reapers to Save the Galaxy" to "save Earth." They introduced a mysterious plot device but didn't let us explore or learn about it. Long time plot threads like the Genophage and Rannoch were resolved, but those were not  the main plot.

 

The ending tried to tell us that the Reapers were actually serving a good purpose. Thanks, but no thanks. Destroy.

 

The end of ME 3 fits with the complete plot and actions of the antagonist of ME1. Your follow up statement makes it seem more like you don't understand the story. So you are forcing your ideas to claim it is bad.

 

Sovergin played it stealthy because a single Reaper couldn't stand up to the combined forces of the Galaxy. When Sovereign was gone they went with plan B. Use the collectors to harvest humans to create a new Reaper to replace the destroyed one. When that one failed they said **** it time to attack. Destruction of the Alpha Relay delayed them but that 6th month period they spend at least a good 2 months taking apart the Batarians to provide the front line troops needed to assault the various planets. Hence why the first level only has Cannibals as enemies. With the other troops showing up as the Reaper's spread to other species colonies.

 

When someone makes an asinine statement like "There is minimal connection between these three games" I feel it is necessary to abridge the entire trilogy. Because you would have to be fairly stupid to not see all the connections between them. The only way there isn't a connection or the story doesn't flow is if you choose to want that to happen.

 

The Catalyst doesn't fit at all with Sovereign. He had contempt for Organics There was no interest in saving or preserving them.

 

ME3 and even Arrival made the main plot of ME2 even more pointless. The Reapers needed only a few months to get in and start their invasion. In fact it really hurts ME1 as well. What's 2.5 years to the Reapers? Why the hurry with Sovereign or the Collectors? Ok, so the Citadel didn't open. Just fly in and do the Harvest.

[Dantriges]

Sovergin played it stealthy because a single Reaper couldn't stand up to the combined forces of the Galaxy. When Sovereign was gone they went with plan B. Use the collectors to harvest humans to create a new Reaper to replace the destroyed one. When that one failed they said **** it time to attack. Destruction of the Alpha Relay delayed them but that 6th month period they spend at least a good 2 months taking apart the Batarians to provide the front line troops needed to assault the various planets. Hence why the first level only has Cannibals as enemies. With the other troops showing up as the Reaper's spread to other species colonies.

 
Ok, let´s go though it. I am aware why Sovereign did what he did in ME 1, thx for explaining it once again. I am fine with the explanation if ME 2 and 3 didn´t open a lot of questions about this chain of events and that was the actual point.

ME 2: The Reapers already had troops there in form of the Collectors. Ok let´s explain that away with Collector ships suck, you can blow one up with a frigate (and the Normandy doesn´t need any upgrades to do it).

ME 2: Harbinger is able to control his slaves in real time from Dark Space. That´s nice, so it shouldn´t be a problem for Sovereign to tell his buddies in dark space, that there is a change of plans. Even if he, for some asinine reason, doesn´t have the capability to call home, the Collectors have. He would have to pass through the Omega system but uh well, the Collectors are able to come and go as they please and even if Aria´s goons spotted him, they had no context to make sense out of it. Let´s not talk about that it would be prudent to equip Sovereign with some QEC capabilities to call the Collectors at least.

ME 2: So the Collectors/Reapers plan was to build a human Reaper. Sounds well ok. What´s this thing supposed to do then? Call the heretics and get his arse kicked like Sovereign at the Citadel?

ME2: So the Collectors plan was to build a human Reaper. Oh that´s nice. Where do you get the building materials? Seems you need the vast majority of a species to build one. Fun fact, 90 to 97% of all humans still live on Earth. Ok let´s attack Earth! Hm nice try, you only have to pass Arcturus station and several fleets to go to Earth and then face another fleet there and planetary defenses. And well Collector ships suck. The fleet at Arcturus and Earth may not have Shepard´s tactical genius(lol), Joker´s leet piloting skills and their frigates may not be so advanced as the SR-2 but there are a lot more frigates...and cruisers and oh dreadnaughts and let´s not forget the carriers and fighters. And well, I somehow doubt that Arcturus station is an umarmed sitting duck. As far as we know the Collectors had ehm 2 ships?
Even if they miraculously bypassed all that, these things are sitting ducks on the ground. the cruiser was forced to lift off after getting shot at by 4 hastily installed GARDIAN lasers. I somehow doubt Earth is so sloppily defended. Air defence controls tend to sit in bunkers and the mechanix on Horizon was able to evade the Seekers by sitting in an closed room.
So the chances of actually completing the human Reaper are close to zero unless ME 3 is wrong and a few million are enough. In that case, why build only one Reaper of each species? There are possible explanations but seems no one cared at BW.

 

ME 2: Legion describes that Sovereign had been searching for allies for over a millennium in order to bring about the cycle once more. Eh ok. Lemme see. Cycle delayed for over a millenium is preferable to just turn on the engines, fly for six months and use another relay?  AIs could have overrun the galaxy in one millenium. Ok let´s put it into the "Nazara just pulled the geth´s leg for some reason."

 

ME 2 Arrival: Oh there is another door into the galaxy. It´s in a backwater system and can be activated from the other side. Let´s just take this one instead. "Hi, here´s Sovereign, there are big problems with the usual plan, let´s take the Alpha relay." It´s not as elegant as popping up at the Citadel but will have to do as a backup plan. At least it´s more subtle than flying around for decades finding useful pawns.

ME 3: Six months later. Oh really? So the guys hanging out in dark space for 50k years were too lazy to spend six months of their time? But they were happy waiting a few decades until Sovereign figured something out, and their backup plan was "let´s wait until the Collectors have build a Reaper. No idea what the youngling is supposed to do then. He starts from scratch after all, but Harby thinks humans are so special."

 

ME 3: ME 1 said that the Reapers assault the Citadel every cycle to gather info and shut down the relay network. Oh that sounds sensible, perhaps we should attack the Citadel before Earth to minimize resistance. Ah no, that would make sense." Hm perhaps the Reapers were unable to assault a fully prepared Citadel? Ah no, they just take it off screen while you are busy playing with Cerberus.

ME 3: I am the Catalyst, the Citadel is my home, the Citadel is part of me. Oh really? Where have you been when Sovereign dry humped the tower, trying to call your buddies? Don´t the Keepers still listen to the Citadel and it´s a part of you? What are the Keepers needed for when the Citadel Master Control is part of you or at least you are sitting on the "hard drive" next to it?
There are some explanations but Shepard didn´t bother asking. Oh come on, it would be only a few lines of dialogue and the coding to grab flags for stuff accomplished in ME 1 is already there, if you don´t want to confuse new players. The game knew it if you had a license from Elkoss Combine in ME 1. So if the game wasn´t a save import, don´t offer the dialogue option, like the one about the Leviathans unavailable if you didn´t play the DLC.

In game it´s a legitimate concern: "How can the Citadel be part of the Reaper intelligence when they needed Sovereign to open the door?" But yeah, who cares. Out of game: Hi, we are BW. We just opened a giant question mark about the whole plot of ME 1, but who cares? We don´t, we didn´t even bother to put in even a flimsy explanation that would stand up to a cursory glance. the explanation: The protheans did it would be an unbelievable miracle but at least an acknowledgement.

It´s not about, that it´s totally unexplainable, this is about not bothering at all about the story of a third of the trilogy.  You can´t keep 100% consistency and remember everything what happened but that was the central plot in ME 1, not some minor thing like ME 2 automatically assuming that you were mean to Conrad Verner in ME1 .

 

READ THE FOLLOWING CAREFULLY!
I am aware that it´s impossible to craft a consistent world without some hiccups.
I am aware that the game can´t explain everything in fine detail.
I am aware that you can nitpick a lot in nearly every franchise, if you want to.
I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to some stuff or at least gloss over it.

But!
There is a limit to my willingness to suspend disbelief. We aren´t nitpicking anymore, this is on the level of "Hi we are Bioware and we don´t give a f*ck about ME 1´s plot."

 

So about this chain of plans. This is an unbelievably dumb chain of plans.

Plan A: Open the Citadel Relay.

Plan A "Sovereigns version": Spend a long time, risking exposure, finding allies then assault the Citadel.

Plan B: Activate the Collectors to build another Reaper.

Plan B 1: Start from scratch where Sovereign failed.

Plan C: Activate the Alpha Relay, kill everyone.

Plan D: Fly for six months or 4 +2 harvesting the batarians and then kill everyone.

Plan "We are so unbelievably stupid, the average IQ of the galaxy drops to zero as soon as we enter": Hide your central AI on the Citadel without any means to open the relay itself or in case it had that ability; prevent tampering or at least call Nazara and let him know that some pesky four eyes are meddling around in the Citadel. Could you please eat them and then reset to factory settings? it´s not likely any other species is able to show up in the next uh 20k+ years at least.

 

A more prudent plan would be:

A: Open the Citadel relay.

Part of A: Make a call to the Citadel and check in with the catalyst if everything is ok. In case of no or negative answer, go there and fix it.

B: In case that the Citadel relay is unavailable, switch to Alpha Relay, then capture the Citadel.

C: In case this doesn´t work, too, just fly for 6 months, enter the galaxy, then capture the Citadel.

D: Harvest everyone.

[Dani86]

 

 

 

 

The second statement is certainly false. Evidence and proof are not the same thing. You may trust a fried to keep a promise because they have always done so in the past. That trust is faith in that person. It is based on their past actions, which are your evidence, though not proof, that they will come through for you this time as well. Not all faith need be blind. Again, this is off topic, but I found it worth addressing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The definition of proof is: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement. So, I don't get what you are saying at all. If a friend has kept a promise in the past, I don't need faith because I have evidence that they are trustworthy. Faith is by definition, without evidence and therefore, yes, it is always blind. 

[Natureguy85]

The definition of proof is: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement. So, I don't get what you are saying at all. If a friend has kept a promise in the past, I don't need faith because I have evidence that they are trustworthy. Faith is by definition, without evidence and therefore, yes, it is always blind. 

 

You have evidence that they are trustworthy but don't know that they will come through again. You believe they will because they are the same person who has come through for you before. Now, you might argue with someone over if what they consider evidence actually is evidence of what they claim, but that's separate.

 

You gave only one definition of the word. I use the first: complete trust or confidence in someone or something. That trust and confidence can be based on past experience.

[gothpunkboy89]

You can try an argue against it, but it's hardly stupid or asinine. The Catalyst claims to be preserving previous species by

dumping their slurry into a Synthetic body. Saren talks about combining Organic and Synthetic, which is exactly what the Collectors are.

 

For a moments lets entertain your thought. Just for the sake of argument. Both are forms of synthesis. What happens to the Protheans and what happens with Syntheis ending how ever are not the same. Tomatoes are find to eat how ever tomato leafs and stems are poisons to eat.  You can not claim they are the same thing even though they come from the same plant.

 

Easy. The simplest is that it's just a self destruct or shutdown command for Reapers. Additionally, we saw in the Geth Consensus that Reaper code is different. Much like an organic virus targets particular cells, so can a computer virus or program target specific types of computer code, in this case Reaper run times or whatever. 

 

And how would it do that? Catalyst is just a power source. The wave sent out regardless of EMS levels still hits all ships and people. If it was just targeting spcific soft ware it should have just sent a single along the connection between the Reaper's and the AI on the Citadel.

 

It definitely does not retain internal consistency. The second two games do not tell the story set up by the first. If you can't see that, you haven't been paying attention or don't want to.

The Reapers are bad. You can say they aren't evil, but that's different.

 

But they do tel the story set up by first game.  Reapers wiped out Protheans and they plan to try again this round. They are driven by some logic beyond what we could understand. And they are correct in that matter.

[themikefest]

 Shepard: Why did Sovereign not use the collectors to open the Citadel relay? I fought them and found that their seeker swarms would be very successful.

catalyst: ........

Shepard: If the reaper that was being built by the collectors, why did it have 3 eyes? Humans have two eyes

catalyst: ......

Shepard: Why didn't you help Sovereign? Do you not communicate with your toys? You said a moment ago you control them

catalyst: ........

Shepard: Why not just fly your toys to the Milky Way when Sovereign wasn't able to open the Citadel? Oh that's right. You don't communicate with your toys.

catalyst: .....

Shepard: Since your toys take control of the Citadel at the beginning of each cycle, why didn't you head straight for it in this cycle?

catalyst: This is ME3, the third game in the trilogy. Its the best place to start playing a trilogy.

Shepard: Mmmmm. I don't know what that means. And this is no game. People are dying as we speak.

catalyst: ......

Shepard: I have many other questions, but I'll just ask this last one. Do you know my name? You or rather Sovereign talked to me and Harbinger even called me by name. So tell me, "I control the reapers" thing, can you say my name.

catalyst: ......

Shepard: Yeah, thats what I thought. You're right about one thing. Organics are more resourceful than you thought.  Ok. Enough of this. I got my pistol in hand. I'm gong over there and shoot the tube. Use the last little bit of time left to say goodbye to your toys. I forgot. You have a problem communicating with your toys. hahahaha.

catalyst: ........

[Natureguy85]

 

For a moments lets entertain your thought. Just for the sake of argument. Both are forms of synthesis. What happens to the Protheans and what happens with Syntheis ending how ever are not the same. Tomatoes are find to eat how ever tomato leafs and stems are poisons to eat.  You can not claim they are the same thing even though they come from the same plant.

 

Oh, absolutely they are not the same. But they have the same thinking and idea behind them. One is crude while the other is more seamless and sophisticated.

 

 

 

And how would it do that? Catalyst is just a power source. The wave sent out regardless of EMS levels still hits all ships and people. If it was just targeting spcific soft ware it should have just sent a single along the connection between the Reaper's and the AI on the Citadel.

 

Easy. The Crucible (They really needed some words that start with a letter other than "C" for this) "is little more than a power source." This means that the three functions of the ending were already a part of the Citadel. After all, the scene with the Catalyst takes place on the base of the Presidium tower with the Crucible looming over you. The wave hits, but does not affect everything, at least not with high EMS. As to the lower EMS outcomes, the damage to the Crucible makes it not work right in whatever way strikes your fancy. I think in the EC the Catalyst will comment on the Crucible being damaged, but I am not positive.

 

 

 

But they do tel the story set up by first game.  Reapers wiped out Protheans and they plan to try again this round. They are driven by some logic beyond what we could understand. And they are correct in that matter.

 

You're telling me that the plan from the start was to do nothing in the second game and, in the third, just so happen to find a device that somehow beats Reapers but never learn anything about it? I do not think so.

 

I comprehend the Reapers completely and have deemed them stupid and wrong.

[Elhanan]

Shepard: Why did you save me? You know I came here to Destroy you.

Catalyst: You earned the chance to choose. And here are the choices before you, including one of peace. But it requires sacrifice, as opposed to personal power or survival. It is a difficult choice, but it is one that is better for all life; not only your own.

[HurraFTP]

Shepard: Why did you save me? You know I came here to Destroy you.

Catalyst: You earned the chance to choose. And here are the choices before you, including one of peace. But it requires sacrifice, as opposed to personal power or survival. It is a difficult choice, but it is one that is better for all life; not only your own.

 

It requires to completely ignore free will and self-determination.
It requires to violate the body (and thus the mind) of every creatures of the galaxy as well.

[Elhanan]

It requires to completely ignore free will and self-determination.
It requires to violate the body (and thus the mind) of every creatures of the galaxy as well.

Shepard has the free will to choose like with every other choice. And like every other choice, Shepard selects for everyone.

The other choices violate the right to freedom (ie; Control), or the right to live (eg; Destroy); Synthesis allows for all life to exist, FTW.

[HurraFTP]

That's exactly why the endings (all of them) are bad to me (that and all the illogical stuff that comes before as many others have already pointed out since years now), at least destroy leaves a galaxy without the aberrations that are the reaper...but it's still disgusts me to no end.
It's like trying to square the circle: enslaving for the name of freedom, killing for the name of life, violating for the name of evolution...

 

As for Shepard exercising his/her free will, I have some doubts.
Does a dying or at least heavily wounded person - who was just forced to shoot at his/her superior (or, for some, at someone who was a father figure for him/her) - is able to exercise his/her free will?
It seems to me that our little Casper has choosen his moment just right for coming with his "solutions".

*and sorry everyone for my bad english.

[Dantriges]

Shepard has the free will to choose like with every other choice. And like every other choice, Shepard selects for everyone.

 

Ok let´s say we ignore the new DNA bit and say that violating the body and mind of every organic and synthetic being is ok. We are at the level where we decide who lives and who dies on a galactic scale, so it´s ok that Shep decides for everyone.

 

But now we hit a snag. We tried and it failed. Synthesis cannot be forced but you are ready and may choose it..

Oh that´s nice I guess but uh if it can´t be forced and you need to be ready for it, how can Shep chose for everyone? Shep might be ready but what about the rest? It´s ok that one guy is ready so he can chose for Farmer Joe, Aunty Mae and Klikklik the rachni drone to get a new DNA? How can they be ready when they don´t know what´s coming? If the succesful integration of synthetic components is based on your state of mind, what will happen if they react negatively?

Seems the Catalyst thinks so but well...it freely admits that it doesn´t get organics and the Reapers interaction with organics consists only of forcing them to do what they want. 

So I may choose it but what if the rest may not? Is it relevant? If it is relevant how does it affect the ones who subconsciously(?) reject it or who aren´t ready? Does the synthesis not take hold? Do they get killed because their DNA gets messed up beyond repair? If it does, how large could the death toll be? Is it larger than killing every geth and other synthetic?  Ok, I suppose the Reapers are fine and the Catalyst doesn´t care as long as organic life in general is preserved. I get why it neglects to mention it.

This is actually important, can I ask about it? Press the issue? Does this work for everyone or do I kill 99% of all life in the galaxy, so the rest will achieve Reaper utopia? Ah no, seems that this exchange is over. Ok, it´s not like my "expert" on the the matter wouldn´t consider billions of killed individuals as acceptable collateral damage anyways.

Yay. So let´s stop pretending that NPCs actually matter or what?

[gothpunkboy89]

.......

 

1. Collector ship isn't build for War. It is a transport ship. The weapon is deadly but is not created to stand a ship to ship combat. Hence why the anti ship cannons were able to drive it off. And even without the cannon upgrade the SR2 is a heavy frigate compared to the SR1 which was a light frigate.  Bigger ship = more/bigger guns and better shields.

 

2. Collectors are only a small population of troops. Good for maybe an initial invasion of an un/lightly defended colony. But completely inadequate for going against heavily defended areas.  This is kind of back up by in game were they only target colonies in areas were they are lightly defended if not undefended.

 

3. How do you know Sovereign didn't inform Harbinger of the fact the Keeper's didn't open the relay? It seems fairly obvious the delay was years if not a decade or after the signal was suppose to be sent.  I really have no idea what the rest of this is suppose to be about. The Collecters lack the numbers to be effective troops. Hence why Sovergien recruited Geth who numbered in the thousands AND created indoctrinated Krogans to serve as it's military force.

 

Collectors were not a military force. They were there to test species to find out which were capable of being transformed into a Reaper and which couldn't be. The Collectors were scientist set up to inform Harbinger ahead of time which species are viable and which are not. They are armed but are not created specifically for war. Hence why James Vega and his unit were able to take out a Collector ship and it's crew at a cost.

 

4. Such small thinking there are many ways to proceed from there. The simplest route would be to secure the Alpha Relay for the rest of the Reapers. This actually would have worked out rather well. First of all it was Batarian space meaning they wouldn't have announced to the rest of the galaxy there was something wrong. This would have also given it a chance to create the first batch of troops for the invasion. Shepard would still have been called in by Hackett to rescue his friend. Which would have put Shepard on the Reaper's plate. Even if Shepard got away and tried to warn everyone of the Reaper. The Batarian government would be belive him and would say he killed all the colonist. Were as before there was little proof against him. Him being the only witness would have been a lot more proof.  This would have led to possible conflict between Humans and Batarians. Which would have significantly weakened both. Or due to the mountain of evidence Shepard would have been imprisoned rather then just grounded. Put in a position were there was no way to reach the Normandy during the Reaper invasion.

 

5. Were does it say 90% of Humans still live on Earth? According to Mass Effect: Incursion, the population of Horizon was 643,315 in 2183. There were numerous colonies in the Terminus System. Freedom's Progress had a population of 912,810 in 2183. Ceryne had roughly 5,000 colonist on it. Eden Prime had 4.4 Million.  They could have harvested enough people to create the Reaper without the need to head to Earth. It would be slow granted but possible.

 

6. Do you have a video of Legion specifically stating Sovereign was looking for Allies for 1,000 years? Vigil theories that it took decades if not a century or two for Sovergin to piece together what happened since it had to keep in the shadows.  Working though indoctrinated agents is rather slow work. How ever once Saren was indoctrinated the events of the actual attack went much faster. For near immortal beings time has no meaning. Waiting an extra 100 years is like watching a 30 second commercial for us.

 

6. What do you think the Citadel Relay was connected to? All relays operate on a point A to B function. Point A and B is always another relay. In theory the Citadel acting as a relay could propel something into dark space. But couldn't pull something from dark space into it. Because that isn't how relays work.  Entering from the Alpha Relay to the Citadel allows them to capture that first. That would include population data which would be used to more effectively target population centers. Raster then having to do the scouting themselves. When Sovergin fails and when the Collectors fail they attempt to do just that. How ever Shepard causes problems by destroying the Relay thus closing the door to them. Forcing them to travel to the next system and use the standard relay system.

 

7. Reapers are immortal for all intents and purposes. Unless destroyed in a fight they can and will last forever. The advantage that gaining the citadel would mean. Mostly the demoralization of species and all the survey and population information stored on there would be a big help in allowing them to harvest at the best rate possible. 6 months, 6 years, 6 centuries mean nothing to them. 50,000 year cycle was created for a reason. To intercept advanced life before it developed enough to create synthetic beings capable of advancing beyond them and killing them. An extra 2 or 3 centuries would mean nothing to Reapers.  50,300 years and the species of the galaxy were still out classed in every way by the Reapers.

 

8. They reason they attack the citadel first is because it is normally the first major point of entry into the galaxy.  They attempted to do the same but were stopped 2 times. 3 if you want to count the Reaper embryo.  The citadel is never shown to do more then lock relays around the Citadel. The invasion of the Citadel was already well in hand before Joker arrived at the Atreus Relay. If it offered a galaxy wide lock down Joker should have never been able to reach the 5th Fleet in the first place.  Vigil mentions communications and transportation across the empire was crippled. Each star system was crippled and isolated from each other. This is also seen in ME3. Communication is crippled besides QEC. Systems are isolated as the Reapers gain ground on them. Thessia is lost because the Reapers eventually gain complete control of the system when the Asari resistance finally crumbles. Only ships already in space manage to get away from the Reapers. For everyone on the ground there is no escape.

 

Just because the AI is housed on the Citadel doesn't mean it is in complete control of it. Why would it need to be in complete control of the citadel? Why would it interrupt anything? The AI shows it still studies all life even after all this time. Remarking the organic's are more resourceful then it thought. It specifically mentions how the variable were altered. The AI doesn't take part in the harvest. The AI created the Reapers to do that work. It continues to study advance life to find a solution to the issue between organic and synthetic life. Interfering would serve no purpose besides deny it a chance to study how they will react to it. It already knows the Reapers are capable of harvesting the cycle. Were I in it's place I would do the same thing. Remember the AI didn't create the Reapers and the cycle because it was the best solution. It did it because it was the only solution that gave the results it was looking for. Quite literally last working option on the table. And why when given a chance the AI offers Shepard the ability to change how the set up works.  Though control, synthesis or destroy options.

[Iakus]

Shepard has the free will to choose like with every other choice. And like every other choice, Shepard selects for everyone.

The other choices violate the right to freedom (ie; Control), or the right to live (eg; Destroy); Synthesis allows for all life to exist, FTW.

But not to exist as they wish. IT turns every living being in the galaxy into Adam Jensen.

[Elhanan]

Ok let´s say we ignore the new DNA bit and say that violating the body and mind of every organic and synthetic being is ok. We are at the level where we decide who lives and who dies on a galactic scale, so it´s ok that Shep decides for everyone.
 
But now we hit a snag. We tried and it failed. Synthesis cannot be forced but you are ready and may choose it..
Oh that´s nice I guess but uh if it can´t be forced and you need to be ready for it, how can Shep chose for everyone? Shep might be ready but what about the rest? It´s ok that one guy is ready so he can chose for Farmer Joe, Aunty Mae and Klikklik the rachni drone to get a new DNA? How can they be ready when they don´t know what´s coming? If the succesful integration of synthetic components is based on your state of mind, what will happen if they react negatively?
Seems the Catalyst thinks so but well...it freely admits that it doesn´t get organics and the Reapers interaction with organics consists only of forcing them to do what they want. 
So I may choose it but what if the rest may not? Is it relevant? If it is relevant how does it affect the ones who subconsciously(?) reject it or who aren´t ready? Does the synthesis not take hold? Do they get killed because their DNA gets messed up beyond repair? If it does, how large could the death toll be? Is it larger than killing every geth and other synthetic?  Ok, I suppose the Reapers are fine and the Catalyst doesn´t care as long as organic life in general is preserved. I get why it neglects to mention it.
This is actually important, can I ask about it? Press the issue? Does this work for everyone or do I kill 99% of all life in the galaxy, so the rest will achieve Reaper utopia? Ah no, seems that this exchange is over. Ok, it´s not like my "expert" on the the matter wouldn´t consider billions of killed individuals as acceptable collateral damage anyways.
Yay. So let´s stop pretending that NPCs actually matter or what?

The choice for synthesis being for everyone is the same as choosing the others; none are uniformly accepted. But Shepard is placed to choose, so I choose synthesis for a better solution to the problems of the Galaxy.

[Elhanan]

But not to exist as they wish. IT turns every living being in the galaxy into Adam Jensen.

?

But choose we must. As for those that may exist that oppose this choice, as Hawkeye Pierce once said, "Let's hope it's a long and healthy hate."

[Iakus]

?

But choose we must. As for those that may exist that oppose this choice, as Hawkeye Pierce once said, "Let's hope it's a long and healthy hate."

Guy augmented without his consent?  Star of a popular game a few years back?  Another one coming this summer?

 

As for "choose we must"  It's a choice made from the barrel of a gun.  a literal "pick your poison".  

 

I choose something else and say "frak you" to the game's "Art"

[Dantriges]

The choice for synthesis being for everyone is the same as choosing the others; none are uniformly accepted. But Shepard is placed to choose, so I choose synthesis for a better solution to the problems of the Galaxy.

 

I have no problems with you choosing Synthesis, seems that you made up your mind about it. I just stated my thoughts I had, when I listened to the catalyst´s explanation about synthesis. It was a "hey wait, isn´t this a problem?" moment.  

[BloodyMares]

The choice for synthesis being for everyone is the same as choosing the others; none are uniformly accepted. But Shepard is placed to choose, so I choose synthesis for a better solution to the problems of the Galaxy.

Yes. We must choose. Choose Destroy. Every non-indoctrinated living creature including Shepard look forward to destroying the Reapers. "You're just a machine. And machines can be broken." © Shepard to Sovereign, Mass Effect 1. Destroy is uniformly accepted, expected and desired. Synthetics are just sacrifices that has to be made. Indoctrination Theory is a false theory but it does bring a good point: Control and Synthesis are completely unknown to Shepard so why would he choose it? Illusive Man tried to contol the Reapers and failed. There's no assurance that Shepard will succeed. Synthesis requires you to die so it would implant everyone with technology. While to me it sounds like a good idea (I'm pro-transhumanism) there's no way that everyone will be happy about it. And the fact that it doesn't destroy the Reapers? What will everyone think about them walking freely and destroying the planet simply by existing? Destroy is a much safer option. Burn synthetics so organic can live. Everyone can understand that.

[Elhanan]

Yes. We must choose. Choose Destroy. Every non-indoctrinated living creature including Shepard look forward to destroying the Reapers. "You're just a machine. And machines can be broken." © Shepard to Sovereign, Mass Effect 1. Destroy is uniformly accepted, expected and desired. Synthetics are just sacrifices that has to be made. Indoctrination Theory is a false theory but it does bring a good point: Control and Synthesis are completely unknown to Shepard so why would he choose it? Illusive Man tried to contol the Reapers and failed. There's no assurance that Shepard will succeed. Synthesis requires you to die so it would implant everyone with technology. While to me it sounds like a good idea (I'm pro-transhumanism) there's no way that everyone will be happy about it. And the fact that it doesn't destroy the Reapers? What will everyone think about them walking freely and destroying the planet simply by existing? Destroy is a much safer option. Burn synthetics so organic can live. Everyone can understand that.

Conjecture on universal belief. We have folks on these forums that complain about free content, let alone agree to one single way of thought. Destroy ruins, regresses cultures, kills synthetic and some organic life, does not fix extant problems and creates new ones, etc; is not safe.

Synthesis does not require death, loss of free thought, etc; all life gains compatible DNA sequences and means to galactic peace and prosperity.