2410 réponses à ce sujet

[Dantriges]

AFAIK the Mass Effect tunnel the relay creates is for that ship or group of ships and transit only. That´s also the reason why ships land at different destinations if they don´t jump together or that you can choose a point in the system(+drift) to drop out.

[gothpunkboy89]

 

Oh, but it does.

 

Well based on the poor quality, would that be a bad thing? Kidding aside, the need for sequels is a totally separate argument. We're talking about what was written. There is also an argument to be made that ME didn't need a sequel and wrapped up just fine. This was the case for The Matrix and there is a much stronger case there for the sequels to not have been made. There's lots that could have been done. There could be a contingency plan, like the Collectors but good. There could be a Cerberus like faction that wants the Reapers to come for whatever reason that opposes Shepard in the second game. Or the second or 3rd game could take place far in the future where the Reapers flying in at FTL makes sense.

 

Yup.

 

No it doesn't. Point to point is point to point. A tunnel with no side exits goes from one place to another. No matter how long that tunnel is, you can only use it to get between two points.

 

What if something happened that never happened? Well, we can play that game all day but it won't get us anywhere. Yeah  if that happened, the Reapers would have a problem. But it never happened. The Reapers take steps to keep that from happening. It's weird that you don't believe the worldbuilding Vigil that the Keepers keep (no pun intended) anyone from poking around the Citadel, but you take the last second infodump Catalyst's claims about synthetics and organics as absolute truth. But we've already established that you know nothing about writing or story telling.

 

Then you can't accept the story of Mass Effect. This is your problem, not mine.

 

Ilos wasn't missed because the Reapers took the Citadel immediately. The Reapers might know that the Citadel data isn't exhaustive, but that doesn't make it useless. Besides controlling the Relay Network is still the main reason to take the Citadel.

 

 

You continue to miss the point of that statement. Vigil is a 3rd party observer with no real information. It has been on Ilos in a lower power state since the start of the Reaper invasion. The Protheans who created it and gave it information were again only making guesses. They know the Reapers attacked the Citadel first. They know about the signal that activates it. They know they appear every 50,000 years. Please show how the Protheans and by extension Vigil could know the Reapers are trapped in darkspace with 100% certainty. Because literally even the smallest amount of brain power used to analyze this fact realizes how stupid that claim is.  Even if you are going to make the claim that analyzing any part of the game you see how stupid  the trilogy is. You don't even need to look at it that hard.

 

If you ever even had the 3 little pigs read to you as a child and that was your only source of story telling structure or ability to use reason or logic even within the confines of an imaginary universe that doesn't always follow real world reason or logic. You would realize how false that information is. Or mores specifically how it is nothing more then an assumption. There are no words in human, batarian, asari, turian, salarian, volus or elcor to express how absolutely stupid taking this statement at face value is.  Particularly when you try to argue it as fact. When that fact would prevent any more ME games from existing.  ME1 would have been the only game possible in the series.

 

The Reapers who were build up all thought the 1st game as the ultimate bad guy would be blocked out of the story without so much as decent introduction. 30 seconds of Reaper then the bad guy is snuffed out. Not very satisfying particularly since it is obvious the Reapers would be the main antagonist.

 

Secondary relays connect point to point with other secondary or primary relays as well you do realize. You can't attempt to jump to one relay then decide half way there to divert. Each relay be it primary or secondary operates point to point. Secondaries can connect to multiple points but each trip is a single straight line to the next relay.

 

I don't take Vigil's statement that the Keepers keep people lulled into a need not to explore the Citadel at face value.

 

I see how the plan does work. But I also see by the Reaper's actions in ME3 and ME2 to lesser extend the Reapers have alternatives to that. Your idea would leave them relying 110% on the Keepers preventing people from being curious. The trilogy shows even if people get curious there are still ways for the Reapers to reach the galaxy and complete the harvest. They count on the actions of the Keepers but they don't put all their eggs in one basket.

 

Vigil is third party. Vigil's data is he said she said. The AI is first hand knowledge. It was there from the start. It studied the development of societies and attempted to help foster peace between organics and synthetics. It was there as those attempts failed. It was also there studying every group that developed after each harvest.

 

A good example is the book The Sword of Shannara. In which the heroes of the story search out the fabled sword said to be super powerful to defeat the evil necromancer or what ever the bad guy was. That information is based on 3rd party he said she said (vigil). The truth is when the sword is found it isn't some super powerful enchanted magical sword(Master Sword). What the sword does is force the user to face the truth of of their lives. Which is used on the Lich bad guy to force him to realize the paradox of his existence (using magic to make himself immortal when it is an impossibility) ending him.

 

When it comes to story telling first party always trumps 3rd party. Because first party saw it directly. 3rd party only heard about it from someone else.

 

A great example of that is in Runescape. The younger god Zamorak is often stated in game to be the god representing chaos. The vast majority of his followers in game took that to mean be Saturday morning cartoon evil. Punching puppies just because they can. This came about because of 3rd party group speaking about his teachings.

 

Later when they actually introduced Zamorak into the game he follows a path that is nothing like that. He thinks that only though hardships and struggle do people actually gain anything. While the weak die off because they weren't strong enough. That order and peace hurts everyone because no one is forced to over come obstacles and become better by it. Hence why he follows the mantra Strength though Chaos.

 

Now since it was in game lore 2 ages since Zamorak was on the planet everything about him was he said she said spread not only by his followers but by followers of his rival younger god Saradomin who tends to represent order.

 

When confronted with these two facts Zamorak the first party person beats out the guy who read a book that Zamorak didn't write and thinks he is interpreting the correct way Zamorak would want him to act.

[Natureguy85]

You continue to miss the point of that statement. Vigil is a 3rd party observer with no real information. It has been on Ilos in a lower power state since the start of the Reaper invasion. The Protheans who created it and gave it information were again only making guesses. They know the Reapers attacked the Citadel first. They know about the signal that activates it. They know they appear every 50,000 years. Please show how the Protheans and by extension Vigil could know the Reapers are trapped in darkspace with 100% certainty. Because literally even the smallest amount of brain power used to analyze this fact realizes how stupid that claim is.  Even if you are going to make the claim that analyzing any part of the game you see how stupid  the trilogy is. You don't even need to look at it that hard.

 

If you ever even had the 3 little pigs read to you as a child and that was your only source of story telling structure or ability to use reason or logic even within the confines of an imaginary universe that doesn't always follow real world reason or logic. You would realize how false that information is. Or mores specifically how it is nothing more then an assumption. There are no words in human, batarian, asari, turian, salarian, volus or elcor to express how absolutely stupid taking this statement at face value is.  Particularly when you try to argue it as fact. When that fact would prevent any more ME games from existing.  ME1 would have been the only game possible in the series.

 

You clearly didn't read my link on Mr. Exposition or consider my Matrix example. I'll try one last time to simplify it for you.

 

The primary reason Vigil exists in the story is to convey the information to the player, not to Shepard.

 

Vigil is right because his purpose is to tell us that information. Yes, that's a meta-reason and not in universe but we're talking about the story as a whole here.

You still don't know what the word "guess" means. Vigil says they have "theories", which are not guesses, on how the Reapers survive in Dark Space, but there is no question they are there.  Remember, the Protheans had decades to study the Harvest after the Reapers left. They would have been able to see and study the Indoctrinated. They may have found logs or records or other kinds of information. We don't know exactly and it doesn't matter.

 

The bigger question is how so much got left behind when the Reapers supposedly took "all technology, all resources."

 

 

 

The Reapers who were build up all thought the 1st game as the ultimate bad guy would be blocked out of the story without so much as decent introduction. 30 seconds of Reaper then the bad guy is snuffed out. Not very satisfying particularly since it is obvious the Reapers would be the main antagonist.

 

Actually, they got a kickass introduction.

 

 

You just don't see them all yet. There are many things they could have done to go forward from the end of Mass Effect.

 

 

 

Secondary relays connect point to point with other secondary or primary relays as well you do realize. You can't attempt to jump to one relay then decide half way there to divert. Each relay be it primary or secondary operates point to point. Secondaries can connect to multiple points but each trip is a single straight line to the next relay.

 

Actually, secondary relays are point to many points. To use my tunnel example, they are a hub where many tunnels meet. In fairness, I think they can go to Primary relays too, so Primary Relays may have many "exits" but only one "entrance".  You are right that each individual tunnel is point to point.

The really funny part is that this does nothing to support any argument you've made. You were just hunting for thing to disagree with me on, which you've accused me of doing when you don't have an answer.

 

 

 

I don't take Vigil's statement that the Keepers keep people lulled into a need not to explore the Citadel at face value.

 

Vigil is third party. Vigil's data is he said she said. The AI is first hand knowledge. It was there from the start. It studied the development of societies and attempted to help foster peace between organics and synthetics. It was there as those attempts failed. It was also there studying every group that developed after each harvest.

 

Of course not. You know better than the game. But you take the Catalyst at face value just because it says it was there. I guess I can't trust a history book because it wasn't written by someone who was actually there. I guess I can't trust a detective or investigator because they weren't there. So what if they found evidence. And anyone who claims to have been somewhere and saw something is totally trustworthy, no questions asked.

 

The reason the two are different is because Vigil describes what is happening in the current cycle and says all other cycles were the same way. The Catalyst comes and tells us something that is counter to what has been shown in the story.

 

 

I see how the plan does work. But I also see by the Reaper's actions in ME3 and ME2 to lesser extend the Reapers have alternatives to that. Your idea would leave them relying 110% on the Keepers preventing people from being curious. The trilogy shows even if people get curious there are still ways for the Reapers to reach the galaxy and complete the harvest. They count on the actions of the Keepers but they don't put all their eggs in one basket.

 

Those alternatives are stupid. How was the Collector plot going to advance the invasion and Harvest? The alternative ultimately is just to fly in, once again making Sovereign and ME1 absolutely unnecessary.

 

There's nothing wrong with them relying 100% on this plan. It works every time. Why fix what isn't broken? Pride cometh before the fall.

 

 

 

 

A good example is the book The Sword of Shannara. In which the heroes of the story search out the fabled sword said to be super powerful to defeat the evil necromancer or what ever the bad guy was. That information is based on 3rd party he said she said (vigil). The truth is when the sword is found it isn't some super powerful enchanted magical sword(Master Sword). What the sword does is force the user to face the truth of of their lives. Which is used on the Lich bad guy to force him to realize the paradox of his existence (using magic to make himself immortal when it is an impossibility) ending him.

 

When it comes to story telling first party always trumps 3rd party. Because first party saw it directly. 3rd party only heard about it from someone else.

 

A great example of that is in Runescape. The younger god Zamorak is often stated in game to be the god representing chaos. The vast majority of his followers in game took that to mean be Saturday morning cartoon evil. Punching puppies just because they can. This came about because of 3rd party group speaking about his teachings.

 

Later when they actually introduced Zamorak into the game he follows a path that is nothing like that. He thinks that only though hardships and struggle do people actually gain anything. While the weak die off because they weren't strong enough. That order and peace hurts everyone because no one is forced to over come obstacles and become better by it. Hence why he follows the mantra Strength though Chaos.

 

Now since it was in game lore 2 ages since Zamorak was on the planet everything about him was he said she said spread not only by his followers but by followers of his rival younger god Saradomin who tends to represent order.

 

When confronted with these two facts Zamorak the first party person beats out the guy who read a book that Zamorak didn't write and thinks he is interpreting the correct way Zamorak would want him to act.

 

There's nothing wrong with new information superseding old information.  It's all in how it is presented. For example, there was nothing wrong with finding out Sovereign was a sapient being and not just a ship. The Matrix Reloaded did it well with the Prophecy not being a real thing. The differences from what Vigil says are not simply new information, they are retcons. Retcons are bad. Part of the problem is "distance" in the story. Vigil's information comes at the climax of the first game. The plot has been building up to that reveal. The Catalyst is an exposition dump, barely a character barely foreshadowed on the Cerberus base at the end of the third game. There is no literary comparison.

 

Also, in your first example, the sword still defeats the enemy, just not in the way they thought.

[KaiserShep]

The first game doesn't explicitly tell you this. The first game has Shepard guessing that the Reapers are trapped.  Nothing in the game explicitly states they are trapped. Only that they appear when the signal is sent to the Citadel and they surge though it. After they are done they retreat to dark space to wait and deactivate the Citadel. If they are truly trapped in darkspace then there is no way any sequel could have happened. Because the only one not in dark space is currently in a million pieces.  Seriously with your logic ME2 or 3 in any way shape or form could not exist.

 

 

Technically they could never truly be trapped, since they did, at some point, assemble the relays at both points. The question would simply be how long it took them to establish that pathway in the first place. If it wasn't for them being overpowered in almost every conceivable way, the stakes would have been pretty high for them to have lost this pathway entirely. In any case, closing the reaper storyline in ME1 wouldn't prevent Mass Effect sequels; it would just result in a totally new plot set in the same galaxy, possibly with another protagonist but likely with Shepard again. Personally I wouldn't see that being a particularly bad thing. It might have been more intriguing, since I found the reapers themselves to be pretty uninteresting. They're not real characters with motivations that are relatable. There's just totally alien Lovecraftian thingamabobs that threaten everything everywhere for some reason. The MEU was ripe to tell all sorts of stories through all sorts of time frames. Of course, thanks to the reaper plot, that's not really the case anymore. 

[Dantriges]

We don´t know how. but as far as we know Vigil was able to monitor Reaper progress with in the galaxy during the harvest. Otherwise him deciding to kill protheans on "not yet" is weird. Dunno if he got a "Prothean Today" news ticker in his Beacon Inbox or what.

 

Seems that everyone agrees that trapped in darkspace was only a temporary and we only haggle about different degrees of entrapment.

ME 2 invalidated the plot of ME 1 by having an alternate relay with a convenient shortcut straight to Citadel space. And well what was the purpose of the Collectors? Yeah ok you can build a new Reaper, that´s ehm nice I guess. What´s it supposed to do? Your geth allies got pounded in the meantime.

ME 3 made the whole endeavour even more pointless letting them show up 6 months later anyways, curbstomping everyone. It seems that there was no tradeoff. They could have let Hackett talk about stuff like "The Reapers are lacking troops it seems, perhaps they had to leave their transports behind" or that half of the Reapers still hang out in batarian space for refuel and repair. Or that the combat performance of the capital ships in general is lower than what we saw from Sovereign. Or movement speed, etc. Some lampshading why the Reapers would consider flying here as a crappy alternative. Actually most of the groundwork is already here, just need to talk in game about it.

[Natureguy85]

We don´t know how. but as far as we know Vigil was able to monitor Reaper progress with in the galaxy during the harvest. Otherwise him deciding to kill protheans on "not yet" is weird. Dunno if he got a "Prothean Today" news ticker in his Beacon Inbox or what.

 

Seems that everyone agrees that trapped in darkspace was only a temporary and we only haggle about different degrees of entrapment.

ME 2 invalidated the plot of ME 1 by having an alternate relay with a convenient shortcut straight to Citadel space. And well what was the purpose of the Collectors? Yeah ok you can build a new Reaper, that´s ehm nice I guess. What´s it supposed to do? Your geth allies got pounded in the meantime.

ME 3 made the whole endeavour even more pointless letting them show up 6 months later anyways, curbstomping everyone. It seems that there was no tradeoff. They could have let Hackett talk about stuff like "The Reapers are lacking troops it seems, perhaps they had to leave their transports behind" or that half of the Reapers still hang out in batarian space for refuel and repair. Or that the combat performance of the capital ships in general is lower than what we saw from Sovereign. Or movement speed, etc. Some lampshading why the Reapers would consider flying here as a crappy alternative. Actually most of the groundwork is already here, just need to talk in game about it.

 

That takes work. There's Cerberus to shoot!

 

http://www.shamusyou...edtale/?p=30869

 

http://www.shamusyou...edtale/?p=30940

 

Whole series (It's great): www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?cat=508

[gothpunkboy89]

You clearly didn't read my link on Mr. Exposition or consider my Matrix example. I'll try one last time to simplify it for you.

 

The primary reason Vigil exists in the story is to convey the information to the player, not to Shepard.

 

Vigil is right because his purpose is to tell us that information. Yes, that's a meta-reason and not in universe but we're talking about the story as a whole here.

You still don't know what the word "guess" means. Vigil says they have "theories", which are not guesses, on how the Reapers survive in Dark Space, but there is no question they are there.  Remember, the Protheans had decades to study the Harvest after the Reapers left. They would have been able to see and study the Indoctrinated. They may have found logs or records or other kinds of information. We don't know exactly and it doesn't matter.

 

The bigger question is how so much got left behind when the Reapers supposedly took "all technology, all resources."

 

Actually, they got a kickass introduction.

 

 

You just don't see them all yet. There are many things they could have done to go forward from the end of Mass Effect.

 

Actually, secondary relays are point to many points. To use my tunnel example, they are a hub where many tunnels meet. In fairness, I think they can go to Primary relays too, so Primary Relays may have many "exits" but only one "entrance".  You are right that each individual tunnel is point to point.

The really funny part is that this does nothing to support any argument you've made. You were just hunting for thing to disagree with me on, which you've accused me of doing when you don't have an answer.

 

Of course not. You know better than the game. But you take the Catalyst at face value just because it says it was there. I guess I can't trust a history book because it wasn't written by someone who was actually there. I guess I can't trust a detective or investigator because they weren't there. So what if they found evidence. And anyone who claims to have been somewhere and saw something is totally trustworthy, no questions asked.

 

The reason the two are different is because Vigil describes what is happening in the current cycle and says all other cycles were the same way. The Catalyst comes and tells us something that is counter to what has been shown in the story.

 

Those alternatives are stupid. How was the Collector plot going to advance the invasion and Harvest? The alternative ultimately is just to fly in, once again making Sovereign and ME1 absolutely unnecessary.

 

There's nothing wrong with them relying 100% on this plan. It works every time. Why fix what isn't broken? Pride cometh before the fall.

 

There's nothing wrong with new information superseding old information.  It's all in how it is presented. For example, there was nothing wrong with finding out Sovereign was a sapient being and not just a ship. The Matrix Reloaded did it well with the Prophecy not being a real thing. The differences from what Vigil says are not simply new information, they are retcons. Retcons are bad. Part of the problem is "distance" in the story. Vigil's information comes at the climax of the first game. The plot has been building up to that reveal. The Catalyst is an exposition dump, barely a character barely foreshadowed on the Cerberus base at the end of the third game. There is no literary comparison.

 

Also, in your first example, the sword still defeats the enemy, just not in the way they thought.

 

So Vigil existing with no foreshadowing save the 30 seconds before you meet him providing an info dump is acceptable. But the AI at the end of the game doing the same is unacceptable? Bit of selective reasoning as they both for fill the criteria you are complaining about with AI.  Both are synthetic. Both show up with no build up or foreshadow. Both provide info dumps to the player that is important for the story. Both show up very late in the game and their information is extremely important to the end.

 

So why the fan boying over Vigil while complaining none stop about AI? As story plots go they are the same thing.

 

Theory: an idea used to account for a situation or justify a course of action

Guess: estimate or suppose (something) without sufficient information to be sure of being correct.

 

Until proven theories are glorified guesses.

 

As for Prothean's on Illos. The Reapers thought it was abandoned since the last harvest. Which means nothing new would have been left there for the Protheans to learn about that the Reapers didn't already deal with from the time of the Innsousions. On the Citadel they would have had hundreds of years to have the Keepers clear it out and set it up back to original set up for the next cycle. They had no ship they had no way off the planet besides the Conduit which they used to make a one way trip to the Citadel. If they did have a ship not only would using the conduit be pointless but they could have altered the keeper signal and gone back to Ilos and rebuild the generator and we would have found a dozen Prothean scientist as well as a VI.

 

Yes a kick ass introduction that ends in a fizzle as the threat they show never manifests besides a single Reaper. That shows the real danger they pose that is then instantly removed with the flick of a switch.

 

No it was more in the effect of you stating that secondary relays act like they are omni directional rather then the spokes on a wheel analogy which is much more correct in how they function.

 

No you can't trust history books to give you anything more then a general idea. History is full of false information either though selective addition of information. The US school system as is others is well known for this. They don't have to out right lie about things but they can omit rather important bits of information. And many times that information is inaccurate. The common idea that Emperor Nero fiddled while Rome burned and indeed a lot of "facts" that claim he was a basket case only appear in history DECADES AFTER his death.

 

As for investigators yes they are equally capable of being wrong. In the US close to 10,000 people a year are wrongly convicted of crimes and sent to jail.

 

Vigil's information is based on theories. The AI's information is based on first hand experiences. Going back to Nero example the information we have on him now is based on theories based on he said she said. How ever if we were able to pull someone from that time frame into our own their information would over write what we think we know of history. Because they were there. They actually saw it first hand and have real experiences. So all that info on Nero being nuts would be wrong when the Roman points out that Nero was actually a great guy who cared for the sick and hungry and only elected a horse to the Senate to make a point about their corruption. 

 

There is everything wrong with relaying on the Keeper trap 100%. No one with half a brain would put all their eggs in one basket like that. Seriously a 5 year old playing pokemon for the first time can see the error of relying 100% on their starter only. Even if their starter is their strongest one they would still level up their other pokemon a bit to allow them to pick up any slack should their main die.  Your idea would make the Reapers stupider then a 5 year old child.

 

As I stated above both Vigil and AI are info dumps that show up with no foreshadowing or character development. They exist solely to provide large amounts of information for the player to fill in the gaps. Both show up at the climax of their games. To complain about one is to complain about the other because they are functionally the same thing.

[KaiserShep]

If I had to guess, Vigil is probably more widely accepted because the whole prothean computer thing doesn't raise troublesome questions about the plot for its mere existence like the Catalyst does. The Catalyst's existence undermines Sovereign's plan and begs the question as to why it sat there unable to do anything itself all this time (certainly a product of little planning beyond the first game).

[CronoDragoon]

If I had to guess, Vigil is probably more widely accepted because the whole prothean computer thing doesn't raise troublesome questions about the plot for its mere existence like the Catalyst does. The Catalyst's existence undermines Sovereign's plan and begs the question as to why it sat there unable to do anything itself all this time (certainly a product of little planning beyond the first game).

 

It's certainly a tough question. If I had to take a stab, I'd say that since the Catalyst knows it can just take the Reapers to the Milky Way the long way, it doesn't really see the need to potentially expose itself. Even if the knowledge that the Citadel itself purposefully opened up for the Reapers wouldn't save this cycle, the information could survive to the next and become a problem for the Catalyst the way the Crucible plans were.

[gothpunkboy89]

If I had to guess, Vigil is probably more widely accepted because the whole prothean computer thing doesn't raise troublesome questions about the plot for its mere existence like the Catalyst does. The Catalyst's existence undermines Sovereign's plan and begs the question as to why it sat there unable to do anything itself all this time (certainly a product of little planning beyond the first game).

 

It does raise questions about the plot. The entire reason Illos was over looked by the Reapers was because information about the planet was deleted. And all personal on it went into a statis pods and the entire planet went dark specifically to avoid the Reapers from finding out about it. STG was able to find Saren's secret base on Virmire. Reapers would be able to do the same.

 

Because of that entire planet going dark there is no way Vigil should have been able to get that information he tells you about. There is no way he should have been able to keep track of Reaper activity without giving away were the planet was. The only information he would have been able to give is about the keeper signal and the Prothean scientists using the conduit. Because they could actually supply him with that information.

[Natureguy85]

So Vigil existing with no foreshadowing save the 30 seconds before you meet him providing an info dump is acceptable. But the AI at the end of the game doing the same is unacceptable? Bit of selective reasoning as they both for fill the criteria you are complaining about with AI.  Both are synthetic. Both show up with no build up or foreshadow. Both provide info dumps to the player that is important for the story. Both show up very late in the game and their information is extremely important to the end.

 

So why the fan boying over Vigil while complaining none stop about AI? As story plots go they are the same thing.

 

As I stated above both Vigil and AI are info dumps that show up with no foreshadowing or character development. They exist solely to provide large amounts of information for the player to fill in the gaps. Both show up at the climax of their games. To complain about one is to complain about the other because they are functionally the same thing.

 

They are only the same in that they are both "Mr. Exposition.” They are very different for several reasons.

 

First, Vigil’s existence in the story makes more sense. Vigil is merely the VI caretaker of a research facility. We’ve already met similar constructs on the Citadel, Ferros, and Noveria. Vigil does not claim to be any more than these other VIs. The Catalyst on the other hand, claims to be more advanced. It is revealed as the Big Bad or Man Behind the Man, if not Man behind the Monsters. It is now the face of the enemy.

 

Second, they tell us different types of information that serve different purposes. Vigil tells us more about the Reapers when we are actually there hunting Saren. This information answers some, though not all, questions that were raised earlier in the story, such as when talking to Sovereign on Virmire. Most importantly, the information is interesting and may be important in the future, but doesn’t really alter the current course. We were chasing Saren to stop him when we showed up and we continue hunting Saren to stop him when we leave.  The Catalyst reframes the entire story, changing our central conflict and attempting to change the goal. We came to Destroy the Reapers and now the Reaper controller is attempting to convince us to do otherwise. Instead of having our goal affirmed, we have it undermined. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is different from Vigil.

 

Thirdly, they come at different points in the story. On Ilos, there is a frantic chase to reach Saren when we are suddenly stopped to talk to this VI. It’s rather jarring to slam on the emotional breaks like that so you may or may not like that aspect. But you leave with renewed sense of hurry and the tension builds until that beautiful final “trench run” for the Conduit. The Catalyst, though, is the end.  To compare the timing in the storylines, you’d have to get Vigil’s exposition either from the Saren husk or from Anderson at the end, or maybe from the Council or Udina in the epilogue.

 

 

 

Theory: an idea used to account for a situation or justify a course of action

Guess: estimate or suppose (something) without sufficient information to be sure of being correct.

 

Until proven theories are glorified guesses.

 

Guesses are based on little to no information and knowing what you don't know. They also are usually basic and simple. Theories are much more substantive and thought out. You're not good at words so I'm done with this part.

 

 

 

 

As for Prothean's on Illos. The Reapers thought it was abandoned since the last harvest. Which means nothing new would have been left there for the Protheans to learn about that the Reapers didn't already deal with from the time of the Innsousions. On the Citadel they would have had hundreds of years to have the Keepers clear it out and set it up back to original set up for the next cycle. They had no ship they had no way off the planet besides the Conduit which they used to make a one way trip to the Citadel. If they did have a ship not only would using the conduit be pointless but they could have altered the keeper signal and gone back to Ilos and rebuild the generator and we would have found a dozen Prothean scientist as well as a VI. 

 

First things first; as of ME1, those statues were Protheans. Collectors being the remains of Protheans and those statues being Innsousions or whatever were obvious retcons because the writers and/or designers of ME2 wanted you to fight bug-men.

 

Ok, I got that out of my system. Back on topic, those are fine questions if you want to nitpick. If you want, they can all get handwave explanations. The Citadel might have been closed.  They are minor plot holes that don’t really break the story. Like I said, Vigil knows to tell the player.

 

As for the Conduit, I really like the Relay monument being the exit, but I was disappointed that the Master Control Unit was in the Council Chamber. While it was cool to fight Saren, and Sovereign through him, in the room shaped like a Reaper, I was hoping we’d go to the hidden areas of the Citadel discussed earlier in regards to the Keepers.

 

 

 

Yes a kick ass introduction that ends in a fizzle as the threat they show never manifests besides a single Reaper. That shows the real danger they pose that is then instantly removed with the flick of a switch.

 

Not at all. They took heavy losses against just one Reaper and a Geth fleet. They have no idea how they were able to actually defeat this thing and many more are coming. Shepard is confident and ready to go but there’s a lot of work to do yet. The story could have gone anywhere, but instead it went nowhere.

 

 

No it was more in the effect of you stating that secondary relays act like they are omni directional rather then the spokes on a wheel analogy which is much more correct in how they function.

 

I merely said they can go to any other Relay which is accurate. I did have to adjust my analogy for the Primary Relays.

 

 

 

No you can't trust history books to give you anything more then a general idea. History is full of false information either though selective addition of information. The US school system as is others is well known for this. They don't have to out right lie about things but they can omit rather important bits of information. And many times that information is inaccurate. The common idea that Emperor Nero fiddled while Rome burned and indeed a lot of "facts" that claim he was a basket case only appear in history DECADES AFTER his death.

 

As for investigators yes they are equally capable of being wrong. In the US close to 10,000 people a year are wrongly convicted of crimes and sent to jail.

 

Vigil's information is based on theories. The AI's information is based on first hand experiences. Going back to Nero example the information we have on him now is based on theories based on he said she said. How ever if we were able to pull someone from that time frame into our own their information would over write what we think we know of history. Because they were there. They actually saw it first hand and have real experiences. So all that info on Nero being nuts would be wrong when the Roman points out that Nero was actually a great guy who cared for the sick and hungry and only elected a horse to the Senate to make a point about their corruption. 

 

So scholarship, study, and analysis mean nothing but if some guy walks up to you, tells you something, and says "trust me, I was there," you take it as absolute truth without a thought. Got it. That's not surprising.  That reminds me of something similar.

 

 

 

There is everything wrong with relaying on the Keeper trap 100%. No one with half a brain would put all their eggs in one basket like that. Seriously a 5 year old playing pokemon for the first time can see the error of relying 100% on their starter only. Even if their starter is their strongest one they would still level up their other pokemon a bit to allow them to pick up any slack should their main die.  Your idea would make the Reapers stupider then a 5 year old child.

 

 

Well, the Catalyst is stupid after all. Sure, it's dumb, but that arrogance is the fatal flaw of the Reapers. It's the reason the story works. Or view the Reapers as machines, picking the best solution and sticking with it because it works every time, not thinking of alternatives until that solution fails. I'll point at the Matrix again. The Architect was unable to come up with a solution because it was limited in its thinking. "Bound by the parameters of perfection."

 

The flaw with the pokemon example is that there are enemies your starter isn't designed or equipped to fight. So other pokemon are not backups to your starter but are different solutions to a different problem. That said, such reliance or arrogance is common in fiction.

 

[KaiserShep]

It does raise questions about the plot. The entire reason Illos was over looked by the Reapers was because information about the planet was deleted. And all personal on it went into a statis pods and the entire planet went dark specifically to avoid the Reapers from finding out about it. STG was able to find Saren's secret base on Virmire. Reapers would be able to do the same.

 

Because of that entire planet going dark there is no way Vigil should have been able to get that information he tells you about. There is no way he should have been able to keep track of Reaper activity without giving away were the planet was. The only information he would have been able to give is about the keeper signal and the Prothean scientists using the conduit. Because they could actually supply him with that information.

 

 

It's a fair guess that Vigil's information is essentially all theory, based on evidence of a post-harvest galaxy gathered by the remaining scientists that came out of stasis. 

[gothpunkboy89]

It's a fair guess that Vigil's information is essentially all theory, based on evidence of a post-harvest galaxy gathered by the remaining scientists that came out of stasis. 

 

 

And yet most players on here are taking it's word as if it is 100% fact based solidly on information. And get up set that the AI on the Citadel contradicts it's statements. And complain about how the AI is an info dump. They both serve the same purpose. They both do the same thing.

 

The only difference is player want to arbitrarily complain about what the AI does at the climax of ME3. Yet claim that what Vigil does at the climax of ME1 is different.

[Dantriges]

My version of ME1 had a jump through a conduit, battle at the Citadel, talking Saren into suicide and blowing up Sovereign after the Vigil climax. Is that optional bonus content?

[KaiserShep]

And yet most players on here are taking it's word as if it is 100% fact based solidly on information. And get up set that the AI on the Citadel contradicts it's statements. And complain about how the AI is an info dump. They both serve the same purpose. They both do the same thing.

 

The only difference is player want to arbitrarily complain about what the AI does at the climax of ME3. Yet claim that what Vigil does at the climax of ME1 is different.

 

 

Come on. They're not really the same, even if they're similar on a functional level. Despite all this stuff about the Catalyst coming out of nowhere and such, I don't believe that this is really the big problem that people tend to have with it. I think it has more to do with the crappy assertions it makes, the rather ridiculous nature of the choices presented (while this is more a Crucible issue, its' the messenger we like to shoot), not to mention that it looks and sounds like an annoying child, the very same annoying child that haunts Shepard's dreams. 

[Natureguy85]

And yet most players on here are taking it's word as if it is 100% fact based solidly on information. And get up set that the AI on the Citadel contradicts it's statements. And complain about how the AI is an info dump. They both serve the same purpose. They both do the same thing.

 

The only difference is player want to arbitrarily complain about what the AI does at the climax of ME3. Yet claim that what Vigil does at the climax of ME1 is different.

 

Showing once again that you either didn't read my post and/or are just ignorant on story telling. They both are examples of a trope. That's it. I laid out the differences.

[Dantriges]

And yet most players on here are taking it's word as if it is 100% fact based solidly on information.

You are doing that, too. Remember the big, long debate that Sovereign stayed with the plan "Catch the Citadel himself" so he would get that sweet load of data and you were so adamant about it, that it´s worth the risk?

Well, that´s coming straight from Vigil´s mouth. If you say that Vigil has no monitoring ability at all,* how would he know. Did the Reaper spray a galaxy wide message in the Milky Way "We are in ur base, stealing ur data?" It would be even impossible to guess it, based on Reaper troop movements with no monitoring ability.

I agree, it sounds more than a bit fishy, that a VI on a "dark" facility is so well informed, but you can´t have it both ways, take stuff as fact which suits you and dismiss the rest, when both aren´t really backed up.

*highly unlikely because it was his job to thaw out the Protheans after they are gone.

[gothpunkboy89]

You are doing that, too. Remember the big, long debate that Sovereign stayed with the plan "Catch the Citadel himself" so he would get that sweet load of data and you were so adamant about it, that it´s worth the risk?

Well, that´s coming straight from Vigil´s mouth. If you say that Vigil has no monitoring ability at all,* how would he know. Did the Reaper spray a galaxy wide message in the Milky Way "We are in ur base, stealing ur data?" It would be even impossible to guess it, based on Reaper troop movements with no monitoring ability.

I agree, it sounds more than a bit fishy, that a VI on a "dark" facility is so well informed, but you can´t have it both ways, take stuff as fact which suits you and dismiss the rest, when both aren´t really backed up.

*highly unlikely because it was his job to thaw out the Protheans after they are gone.

 

 

Because any society that would treat the Citadel as their capital would as a result keep the majority of information there. The National Archives exist in the DC area. Why does it exist in the DC area? Because that is the capital of the USA.  While I no doubt there are areas else were in the USA. The main area is located in the capital Washington DC. This is something so unbelievably obvious you would have to be a complete and total moron to ignore.

 

Like wise I never said everything Vigil stated was bullshit. Because it is fairly obvious that with the Citadel being the capital of the Prothean Empire they would retain records of settled planets and statistics of those planets. Things needed to run an empire. Reapers attacking that place first they would get that information. So there is nothing later that would contradict Vigil's statement.

 

Seriously trying to nit pick my statements like this only succeeds in making you look silly.

[Monica21]

Because any society that would treat the Citadel as their capital would as a result keep the majority of information there. The National Archives exist in the DC area. Why does it exist in the DC area? Because that is the capital of the USA.  While I no doubt there are areas else were in the USA. The main area is located in the capital Washington DC. This is something so unbelievably obvious you would have to be a complete and total moron to ignore.

 

Librarian with a background in archives and records management sliding in here. There is one National Archives facility in DC. There are many, many more National Archive facilities outside DC. There are archives kept in caves because they are naturally temperature controlled. In addition, every Presidential Library has an archive of documents from that presidency. 

 

That said, I highly doubt that the majority of information on anything is kept in DC. DC has been a prominent military target dating back to the War of 1812, and as such, that's actually one of the last places you'd want to store information. You still need the data accessible if there is a military strike. You'd want servers and storage kept in off-site facilities.

 

And furthermore, you may have information, like the information from the Citadel Archives, but that's as it relates to the entirety of galactic civilization. It's unlikely that the Turians and the Asari are storing classified government data there, if only to keep their own government data separate. I mean, the United Nations is in New York City, but countries don't store documents there.

[ImaginaryMatter]

There is everything wrong with relaying on the Keeper trap 100%. No one with half a brain would put all their eggs in one basket like that. Seriously a 5 year old playing pokemon for the first time can see the error of relying 100% on their starter only. Even if their starter is their strongest one they would still level up their other pokemon a bit to allow them to pick up any slack should their main die.  Your idea would make the Reapers stupider then a 5 year old child.

 

Um... exclusively raising the starter Pokemon is probably one of the easiest and safest ways to beat the Pokemon games.

[Dantriges]

Besides the little thing that destroying sensitive data is a thing and I seriously doubt that the protheans had to send a horde of librarians into their databases with shredders and matches+trashcans.

[gothpunkboy89]

Librarian with a background in archives and records management sliding in here. There is one National Archives facility in DC. There are many, many more National Archive facilities outside DC. There are archives kept in caves because they are naturally temperature controlled. In addition, every Presidential Library has an archive of documents from that presidency. 

 

That said, I highly doubt that the majority of information on anything is kept in DC. DC has been a prominent military target dating back to the War of 1812, and as such, that's actually one of the last places you'd want to store information. You still need the data accessible if there is a military strike. You'd want servers and storage kept in off-site facilities.

 

And furthermore, you may have information, like the information from the Citadel Archives, but that's as it relates to the entirety of galactic civilization. It's unlikely that the Turians and the Asari are storing classified government data there, if only to keep their own government data separate. I mean, the United Nations is in New York City, but countries don't store documents there.

 

I fully admitted that other places could exist in US as archives. And I never said all the information would be there. How ever since the Citadel at least in this cycle acts as a galactic UN it would contain data of planets settled, census of populations and a lot of other general information. Reapers aren't all that interested in finding out the Asari are trying to 5 generation inbreed to boost biotic powers. They want to know what planets are settled and roughly how many are there so they don't have to go looking all over the galaxy for them.

[gothpunkboy89]

Um... exclusively raising the starter Pokemon is probably one of the easiest and safest ways to beat the Pokemon games.

 

No it isn't. Trust me been playing pokemon since the original Red and Blue. Only missed out on DS generation which I am now in the process of correcting. You can get far but no you will eventually get your ass kicked if by no one else then the Elite 4.

[ImaginaryMatter]

No it isn't. Trust me been playing pokemon since the original Red and Blue. Only missed out on DS generation which I am now in the process of correcting. You can get far but no you will eventually get your ass kicked if by no one else then the Elite 4.

 

Nope. Just try it.

 

These games are pretty easy to beat. It's ultimately an issue of 'fun' not optimizing Pokemon (that comes later).

 

This guy did it with a Pichu. A Pichu.

[Monica21]

I fully admitted that other places could exist in US as archives. And I never said all the information would be there. How ever since the Citadel at least in this cycle acts as a galactic UN it would contain data of planets settled, census of populations and a lot of other general information. Reapers aren't all that interested in finding out the Asari are trying to 5 generation inbreed to boost biotic powers. They want to know what planets are settled and roughly how many are there so they don't have to go looking all over the galaxy for them.

You said it any galactic civilization that had the Citadel as its capital would keep "a majority of information" there and I explained why they wouldn't. And you also talked about how moronic it would be to consider otherwise, and I explained to you why you were wrong.

There is in game information that the Turians had figured how to create something of a false atmosphere on Menae, but that was information the Turians didn't share and was only guessed at by other governments. There's no reason to believe that the majority of anything is kept on the Citadel.

And just because the Protheans kept census data on the Citadel doesn't mean our cycle would.