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[gothpunkboy89]

.....

 

 

Both existence make story sense. I never complain about his existence story sense. A VI being left behind by Protheans on an unknown planet makes sense. It is the information it provides that in some cases defies the logic of the game that I draw problem with. Particularly when you argue why it is correct even though other events in game show it is incorrect. Like the very bold claim that Reapers are trapped in Darkspace you claim. Pointing out they literally claimed it in game when I pointed out the flaw of that logic.

 

This is one of those many small moments were you seem more interested in " winning" then being correct.

 

Vigil tells you a few things to advance the plot like giving you the one thing that manages to over write a Reaper's control of Citadel which is pure plot device. Because a structure build from the ground up by the Reapers could some how be removed from their direct physical contact control for more then a few seconds is laughable at best. Particularly when the people creating said program to remove control were still centuries if not millennia away from being in the same ball park when it comes to Reaper Technology.  It also raises so many questions without answering them.

 

1. How did it keep track of Reaper invasion without giving away it's position?

2.It claimed travel and communication was crippled thought out the empire during invasion. So again how did it keep track?

3. Stated that travel though the conduit was a one way trip were the Prothean scientists most likely died of starvation. So how did Vigil have the code to remove Sovergin from control of the Citadel temporarily? They just admitted that all communications were destroyed during the Reaper invasion. There would be no way for them to send said information.

 

Seriously if you actually pay attention Vigil creates more questions then it answers. All new information can re frame the entire story. The finding of the massive Prothean computer on Thessia massively re frames the entire story with the Asari. Up to that point no Reaper would truly talk to the character. Claiming they wouldn't understand because they were so primitive. Which is true to a point. But this is also the first time we are given a full and frank discussion about their reason for existing, motivations and plans that never existed else were in the game. This has to come at the end of the game other wise it removes all tension from the rest of the game play.  It would be very boring if you found out mid way though you could do Synthesis so you spend the rest of the game just traveling around talking to people about it. As the Reaper's stop fighting while you go around talking to everyone.

 

Location in story is pretty irrelevant because your complain about the AI at the end of ME3 is it is an info dump. Which both are both come out of no were with little to no foreshadowing. They both tell you important information which you think need to make a choice on what to do. Vigil's information you pick to save or abandon the council to stop Sovereign.  The AI tells you the information for you to pick how to continue with the game to destroy the Reapers, Control them, Synthesis or Refuse. Both provide information that you then take in and decide the best course of action for the galaxy.

 

Keep telling yourself that about theories and guesses. Both are instance of people using limited observed information and coming to a conclusion. I look at the sun constantly moving around me while I stand still. So I guess that the sun revolves around the earth. I watch the sun constantly moving around me so I theorize that the sun revolves around the earth. Funny how both come to the same conclusion. One just wears a fancy hat and claims he is better.

 

You missed my point I said nothing about the statues. Only that the information from the Innsurions would have already been removed from the planet before the Protheans found it. Secondly the Citadel doesn't even need to be closed to trap them. According to Javik as well as Vigil the Citadel was in Reaper control since the start of the war. That would have given the Keepers time to trash everything and rebuild it back to it's basic form for next cycle. That would have removed any way for the Protheans to create a ship.

 

It took so many loses because of the Geth Fleet there to absorb the damage for Sovergin. There is what maybe a dozen or two Alliance ships shooting at Sovereign. None of them large classes like capital ships. It is another plot device to think the entire Citadel Fleet who are trained specifically to protect the Citadel from attack to be caught so of guard and get their ass handed to them so badly.  Seriously the Destiny Ascension is the largest most powerful warship created so far. What was it armed with nerf darts? The fight even had time to leave the battle to pick up the Council. If the majority of geth ships were attacking to pin it down that would have left other ships more open to help back it up. Seriously even in modern Navys Air craft Carriers are considered the most powerful warship due to the wide vareity of ways it has to take down other ships and land based attacks with aircraft. Yet even we today have the knowledge that leaving an Aircraft Carrier alone out in the middle of the ocean is a stupid idea. Hence why it is surrounded with destroyers, frigates and other ships who's purpose is to protect the Aircraft Carrier and intercept attacks before they reach it. So the Aircraft Carrier can launch it's jets into the air.

 

The Destiny Ascension should be 1 hit KOing Geth ships. More Geth ships targeting it would reduce the pressure on the rest of the Fleet who would have been able to come to the aid and pick ships off. Sovereign's full addition to the fight is flying straight ahead and ramming a grand total of 2 ships. We actually get a chance to see a Reaper in action and it does nothing.  Hand waving and altering of some reality later all we see is Sovergin sitting on a stick, blowing up stationary ships which total maybe a dozen or slightly more. Who then manages to over load some how because Shepard killed a pawn he was controlling. Thus magically his shields went down and the dozen ships managed to kill him.  I haven't seen this many plot devices and altering of reality crammed into such a small space of time since Resistance. Were overloading one tower created a chain reaction that overloaded all towers in the UK. Because an alien race that was on earth before humanity existed. Was able to create a virus that would alter the DNA of humans to form creatures to do their bidding. Created these towers simply didn't understand the concept of surge protectors.

 

Your example is rather funny in how silly it is. Investigators get things wrong. If they didn't then hundreds if not more people a year wouldn't be released from prison due to cases being reopened and found the evidence was flawed if not our right made up. People analyzing the left overs of history can get a lot of things wrong. History is determined by the winners. Political slandering has existed since time immemorial. All you need is the right person in the right place in history to alter how the future will know things. Seriously most of our knowledge about the ancient world comes from the Romans because they kept track of it. How ever it would be asinine to claim they didn't put a Roman spin on things. Cultural bias is a real thing and it colors the perception of history.  The Nazi's burned and destroyed countless historical documented and works that they didn't like. That information is now 100% lost to history and we will never know about it. That is how history works.

 

In the confines of the game the AI was there. He has been there since the beginning of the Reapers. Before it even. Vigil was confined to a single planet. Who was limited in what it saw and learned about.

 

You keep claiming the AI is stupid or flawed yet you fail to offer alternative ideas how to solve the problem. Just claiming it could have done differently. Pretty much the definition of an arm chair warrior. Claiming the world is terrible but never offering a way to fix it.

[gothpunkboy89]

 

Nope. Just try it.

 

These games are pretty easy to beat. It's ultimately an issue of 'fun' not optimizing Pokemon (that comes later).

 

This guy did it with a Pichu. A Pichu.

 

 

Considering he was able to pick pichu as a starter pokemon there is some obvious hacks. With those hacks he could also perfect the IV's of them to allow it to max out it's potential. So your video raises some rather important questions.

 

You said it any galactic civilization that had the Citadel as its capital would keep "a majority of information" there and I explained why they wouldn't. And you also talked about how moronic it would be to consider otherwise, and I explained to you why you were wrong.

There is in game information that the Turians had figured how to create something of a false atmosphere on Menae, but that was information the Turians didn't share and was only guessed at by other governments. There's no reason to believe that the majority of anything is kept on the Citadel.

And just because the Protheans kept census data on the Citadel doesn't mean our cycle would.

 

Yes the information the Reapers want. Colonies, census data would be kept there. Because the citadel acting as the UN type set up were involved in any colonization bid between the various races.  The game states clearly the Quarians had to petition the Council for a planet they were thinking about colonizing. But because they landed and settled before the OK the Council threaten to orbital bombard them if they didn't leave. Then giving the plane to Elcor.  That kind of information would be kept there.

[Natureguy85]

You said it any galactic civilization that had the Citadel as its capital would keep "a majority of information" there and I explained why they wouldn't. And you also talked about how moronic it would be to consider otherwise, and I explained to you why you were wrong.

There is in game information that the Turians had figured how to create something of a false atmosphere on Menae, but that was information the Turians didn't share and was only guessed at by other governments. There's no reason to believe that the majority of anything is kept on the Citadel.

And just because the Protheans kept census data on the Citadel doesn't mean our cycle would.

 

I don't know, I might grant him this one. The embassies would probably have a lot of that data, even if the general citadel council would not. That said, it is significantly different that the species are still separate rather than being all part of one unified empire.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Both existence make story sense. I never complain about his existence story sense. A VI being left behind by Protheans on an unknown planet makes sense. It is the information it provides that in some cases defies the logic of the game that I draw problem with. Particularly when you argue why it is correct even though other events in game show it is incorrect. Like the very bold claim that Reapers are trapped in Darkspace you claim. Pointing out they literally claimed it in game when I pointed out the flaw of that logic.

 

This is one of those many small moments were you seem more interested in " winning" then being correct.

 

The Catalyst's existence makes no story sense. It punches a massive hole in the plot of Mass Effect. What information defies the logic of Mass Effect? What events of Mass Effect show Vigil to be incorrect? You didn't point out any flaws in logic. You just claimed it made no sense, when Vigil and I both explained why it does. Your incorrect views on Mass Relays likely fuels this. That the Reapers actually aren't trapped and actually make it into the galaxy easily is a retcon. You can't blame Vigil for that.

 

I win by being correct and hopefully convincing others. Unfortunately, you'll probably keep plodding along your predetermined path forever no matter what anyone says.

 

 

 

Vigil tells you a few things to advance the plot like giving you the one thing that manages to over write a Reaper's control of Citadel which is pure plot device. Because a structure build from the ground up by the Reapers could some how be removed from their direct physical contact control for more then a few seconds is laughable at best. Particularly when the people creating said program to remove control were still centuries if not millennia away from being in the same ball park when it comes to Reaper Technology.  It also raises so many questions without answering them.

 

1. How did it keep track of Reaper invasion without giving away it's position?

2.It claimed travel and communication was crippled thought out the empire during invasion. So again how did it keep track?

3. Stated that travel though the conduit was a one way trip were the Prothean scientists most likely died of starvation. So how did Vigil have the code to remove Sovergin from control of the Citadel temporarily? They just admitted that all communications were destroyed during the Reaper invasion. There would be no way for them to send said information.

 

Seriously if you actually pay attention Vigil creates more questions then it answers.

 

It makes sense if they gave that responsibility to the Keepers. Misunderstanding Organics is a key flaw of the Reapers that could have been exploited later in the series. Interestingly, you say that being able to remove it from their control makes no sense but also don't question why the Catalyst doesn't have control of it.

 

Regarding Vigil, those are good questions and are minor plotholes. They don't really stop the story because, again, the information is for the audience more than the character. He knows because he must know. His purpose is to know.

We can make up handwave explanations. For example, I figured the data hack is what the scientists took with them in the first place. Or being stuck on the Citadel didn't mean they couldn't communicate with Vigil. Take your pick.

 

 

 

 All new information can re frame the entire story. The finding of the massive Prothean computer on Thessia massively re frames the entire story with the Asari. Up to that point no Reaper would truly talk to the character. Claiming they wouldn't understand because they were so primitive. Which is true to a point. But this is also the first time we are given a full and frank discussion about their reason for existing, motivations and plans that never existed else were in the game. This has to come at the end of the game other wise it removes all tension from the rest of the game play.  It would be very boring if you found out mid way though you could do Synthesis so you spend the rest of the game just traveling around talking to people about it. As the Reaper's stop fighting while you go around talking to everyone.

 

Sure, it can. It all depends on what changes and how it's presented. For example, the information on Thessia regarding the Asari is interesting and alters the lore and universe, but it doesn't really impact the plot.

 

Because the Reaper's actions are fully worth opposing, I don't know that we ever needed a full reveal of their motivations. If we did need one, it didn't need to be complex or profound. All your last point shows is that Synthesis wouldn't fit as an ending option in that case. However, the rest of the game could be about convincing Shepard that Synthesis might be desirable. This is something they failed to do with Control as well.

 

 

 

Location in story is pretty irrelevant because your complain about the AI at the end of ME3 is it is an info dump. Which both are both come out of no were with little to no foreshadowing. They both tell you important information which you think need to make a choice on what to do. Vigil's information you pick to save or abandon the council to stop Sovereign.  The AI tells you the information for you to pick how to continue with the game to destroy the Reapers, Control them, Synthesis or Refuse. Both provide information that you then take in and decide the best course of action for the galaxy.

 

Location and timing are extremely relevant for reasons I detailed. The problem isn't only that the Catalyst is an info dump. How can you say that's my complaint when I praised the Vigil info dump? Try and stick with one argument.

 

Vigil doesn't need foreshadowing. He just gives information. They could just as easily had Shepard read a data tablet or archive using the Cipher. The Catalyst is the antagonist of the entire series! If you can't understand that difference, you are beyond hope. Vigil's information is not relevant to any choice going forward. It has nothing to do with what order you give the Alliance fleet.

 

 

 

 

You missed my point I said nothing about the statues.

 

No, I was just making a separate comment, hence the next paragraph starting with "Ok, I got that out of my system. Back on topic..."

 

 

 

It took so many loses because of the Geth Fleet there to absorb the damage for Sovergin. There is what maybe a dozen or two Alliance ships shooting at Sovereign. None of them large classes like capital ships. It is another plot device to think the entire Citadel Fleet who are trained specifically to protect the Citadel from attack to be caught so of guard and get their ass handed to them so badly.  Seriously the Destiny Ascension is the largest most powerful warship created so far. What was it armed with nerf darts? The fight even had time to leave the battle to pick up the Council. If the majority of geth ships were attacking to pin it down that would have left other ships more open to help back it up. Seriously even in modern Navys Air craft Carriers are considered the most powerful warship due to the wide vareity of ways it has to take down other ships and land based attacks with aircraft. Yet even we today have the knowledge that leaving an Aircraft Carrier alone out in the middle of the ocean is a stupid idea. Hence why it is surrounded with destroyers, frigates and other ships who's purpose is to protect the Aircraft Carrier and intercept attacks before they reach it. So the Aircraft Carrier can launch it's jets into the air.

 

The Destiny Ascension should be 1 hit KOing Geth ships. More Geth ships targeting it would reduce the pressure on the rest of the Fleet who would have been able to come to the aid and pick ships off.

 

Yes, the battle goes as the plot demands. Lots of ships die with one shot. However, while they sped it up because the result was all that mattered, that result actually does make sense when you take certain things into account.

 

From the wiki:

 

"Frigates achieve high FTL cruise speeds because of their high-performance drives. They also have proportionally larger thrusters and lighter design mass, allowing them greater maneuverability. In combat, speed and maneuverability make frigates immune to long-range fire of larger vessels.

In fleet combat, frigates are organized into "wolf pack" flotillas of four to six. Wolf packs speed through enemy formations, hunting enemy vessels whose kinetic barriers have been taken down by fighter-launched disruptor torpedoes. The wolf pack circle-strafes vulnerable targets, using their superior speed and maneuverability to evade return fire."

 

From the Codex page of the wiki:

 

"At MEDIUM range, ships can use broadside guns. Fleets intermingle, and it becomes difficult to retreat in order. Ships with damaged kinetic barriers are vulnerable to wolf pack frigate flotillas that speed through the battle space."

 

"Neither dreadnoughts nor cruisers can use their main guns at close range; laying the bow on a moving target becomes impossible. Superheated thruster exhaust becomes a hazard."

 

With two fleets engaging at normal ranges, you'd be right. The smaller ships would screen for the larger Dreadnaughts, the latter able to shoot This battle, much like the Rannoch one later, is happening at very close ranges.

 

 

 

 

 

Your example is rather funny in how silly it is. Investigators get things wrong. If they didn't then hundreds if not more people a year wouldn't be released from prison due to cases being reopened and found the evidence was flawed if not our right made up. People analyzing the left overs of history can get a lot of things wrong. History is determined by the winners. Political slandering has existed since time immemorial. All you need is the right person in the right place in history to alter how the future will know things. Seriously most of our knowledge about the ancient world comes from the Romans because they kept track of it. How ever it would be asinine to claim they didn't put a Roman spin on things. Cultural bias is a real thing and it colors the perception of history.  The Nazi's burned and destroyed countless historical documented and works that they didn't like. That information is now 100% lost to history and we will never know about it. That is how history works.

 

Sure, but they get things right too. You can't just automatically discount them because they weren't there or because some guy comes up and claims to have been there and says something else happened. Yet that's exactly what you do.

 

 

 

In the confines of the game the AI was there. He has been there since the beginning of the Reapers. Before it even. Vigil was confined to a single planet. Who was limited in what it saw and learned about.

 

The Catalyst didn't exist until he was written into ME3. He wasn't even a thought a the time Mass Effect was made. Retcon.

 

 

You keep claiming the AI is stupid or flawed yet you fail to offer alternative ideas how to solve the problem. Just claiming it could have done differently. Pretty much the definition of an arm chair warrior. Claiming the world is terrible but never offering a way to fix it.

 

Finding alternatives is a separate step from identifying the problems. I've done it plenty of both, here and elsewhere. I've even offered ways they could have properly framed the endings to make them work. But let all readers note the shift in your argument. It's a sign you've got no legs to stand on and know I'm right.

[Monica21]

I don't know, I might grant him this one. The embassies would probably have a lot of that data, even if the general citadel council would not. That said, it is significantly different that the species are still separate rather than being all part of one unified empire.

"A lot" is not even close to "a majority of." We have many examples in-game of governments hiding information from the Council or other governments. Even before you land on Eden Prime you can ask why humanity didn't decide to keep the beacon for itself. And not just that, but his reasoning is childish. "Everything is in DC because DC is the capital so therefore everything must be on the Citadel because the Citadel is the capital." Well, the Citadel isn't the capital of anything and not everything is in DC. And the two situations are really not as comparable as he claims.

Also, this guy is the opposite of smart, so I'm not willing to concede ground on very much, especially when I know he's quite wrong and should stop using guesswork as an example of a flow of information.

[gothpunkboy89]

"A lot" is not even close to "a majority of." We have many examples in-game of governments hiding information from the Council or other governments. Even before you land on Eden Prime you can ask why humanity didn't decide to keep the beacon for itself. And not just that, but his reasoning is childish. "Everything is in DC because DC is the capital so therefore everything must be on the Citadel because the Citadel is the capital." Well, the Citadel isn't the capital of anything and not everything is in DC. And the two situations are really not as comparable as he claims.

Also, this guy is the opposite of smart, so I'm not willing to concede ground on very much, especially when I know he's quite wrong and should stop using guesswork as an example of a flow of information.

 

And I will repeat the Reapers are not so interested in secret documentation about secret bases that hold small populations. They want population centers and census data.  Turins having a hidden base on one of their moons is pretty damn irrelevant because it would be exposed during the harvest anyways. Though direct attack forcing the location to act, indoctrinated agents spilling the beans or the Reapers hacking data bases planet side that would eventually yield the information. Or if nothing else the fact all the species were harvested would deplete the population to a level that it couldn't sustain it's self anymore genetically.

 

People liken the Council as UN but it goes far beyond that. The laws they make are followed by everyone. Hence why the Council passed Treaty of Farixen the rest of the council races including humanity when they joined agreed to limit their military build up. They have every council race agreeing to use the same currency when dealing with different races. Creating the galactic standard Credit.

 

Maybe I've missed a few things but last I knew the UN couldn't forcibly stop countries from building up their military. That every Country still has their own form of currency rather then a single global currency.

[Dantriges]

A lot of the data mentioned, like colonies, population numbers, resources is probably open access on the Extranet or Beaconpaedia (or whatever the protheans called their extranet). A lot of that is needed for travel, trade, tourism, general business etc. Other stuff like the average income of the Ditakur minority on Tranbir 9 is irrelevant to the Reapers.

 

I am really surprised that people treat stuff like colony locations as classified data. They are supposed to be part of the galactic community, empire whatever is currently ruling the galaxy, trading their stuff with the rest.

 

The interesting stuff would be black sites, not openly known military ases etc (if you want to be thorough and get every one) and well, the official records of the project on Ilos got destroyed in the initial attack, probably data on other secret sites went into the shredder, too.

[StarcloudSWG]

The real reason for the Reapers to seize the Citadel is not information.

 

The real reason is that it is the central control hub for the mass relay network, capable of turning on and turning off relays remotely.

 

The fact it is also almost always the seat of galactic government makes the harvesting easier, as the command, control, and coordination structure is decapitated with one tactical strike.

 

The centrality of the Citadel also makes it a natural galactic communications hub, and large amounts of data traffic do go through it.

 

However, the Reapers have the numbers that they don't actually *need* that data. They'll just go world by world, relay by relay, harvesting each one inhabited by a space-faring civilization.

[Monica21]

And I will repeat the Reapers are not so interested in secret documentation about secret bases that hold small populations. They want population centers and census data.  Turins having a hidden base on one of their moons is pretty damn irrelevant because it would be exposed during the harvest anyways. Though direct attack forcing the location to act, indoctrinated agents spilling the beans or the Reapers hacking data bases planet side that would eventually yield the information. Or if nothing else the fact all the species were harvested would deplete the population to a level that it couldn't sustain it's self anymore genetically.
 
People liken the Council as UN but it goes far beyond that. The laws they make are followed by everyone. Hence why the Council passed Treaty of Farixen the rest of the council races including humanity when they joined agreed to limit their military build up. They have every council race agreeing to use the same currency when dealing with different races. Creating the galactic standard Credit.
 
Maybe I've missed a few things but last I knew the UN couldn't forcibly stop countries from building up their military. That every Country still has their own form of currency rather then a single global currency.

Your argument is literally, "they want the Citadel because it's the capital of the galaxy so the majority of information is there and you'd have to be a moron not to know this." And now you want to talk about currency.

Okay then.

[Dantriges]

The real reason for the Reapers to seize the Citadel is not information.

 

The real reason is that it is the central control hub for the mass relay network, capable of turning on and turning off relays remotely.

 

The fact it is also almost always the seat of galactic government makes the harvesting easier, as the command, control, and coordination structure is decapitated with one tactical strike.

 

I know that control hub stuff but in Gothpunkworld this relay control stuff isn´t proven (with the exception of the lockdown of Citadel space relays), so I don´t bother. The only thing you get is a recap of the Battle of the Citadel or so.

[gothpunkboy89]

Your argument is literally, "they want the Citadel because it's the capital of the galaxy so the majority of information is there and you'd have to be a moron not to know this." And now you want to talk about currency.

Okay then.

 

 

And yet during ME3 we talk a run though massive data archives during the Citadel DLC. You and others are trying to alter it to mean all this other stuff that doesn't matter. Reaper's aren't interested in secret government tests to see what happens when you duct tape two Asari together or seeing if they sew 3 Vorcha ass to mouth if they would **** gold.

 

You mention that DC is a target area so they don't store much there because of the risk. Well you out right ignore the face the Citadel is the exact opposite of it. It is the most secure location in the entire galaxy. There were two major conflicts that happened in the ME story line. Rachnii War and Krogan Rebellion. Yet neither managed to damage the Citadel at all. Once those arms close the attackers could spend every minute of every day for the rest of eternity attacking and would deal a scrap of damage to the armor surrounding it.

 

The governmental system adapted by the species of the galaxy in relation to Council controlled space as well as past examples of how the Council controls/has a say in colonization of planets. Leads all this to a very simple conclusion that information such as that which would be useful to the Reapers would exist on the Citadel.

 

Seriously Balak says in ME1 one of the big reason Batarians hate humans is because the Council gave them colonies on resource rich worlds over the Batarians even though they were new to the galaxy. When they protested and were ignored they closed up their embassy and left.

 

I have in game proof to back up my claim. Your proof is what?

[Natureguy85]

"A lot" is not even close to "a majority of." We have many examples in-game of governments hiding information from the Council or other governments. Even before you land on Eden Prime you can ask why humanity didn't decide to keep the beacon for itself. And not just that, but his reasoning is childish. "Everything is in DC because DC is the capital so therefore everything must be on the Citadel because the Citadel is the capital." Well, the Citadel isn't the capital of anything and not everything is in DC. And the two situations are really not as comparable as he claims.

Also, this guy is the opposite of smart, so I'm not willing to concede ground on very much, especially when I know he's quite wrong and should stop using guesswork as an example of a flow of information.

 

Sure, some stuff like Illos wouldn't be on there, and I'm sure the species of this cycle have similar things. But they would have info on actual colonies. While it's an argument after the fact, Cerberus find "should be secret" bases all the time

 

See, I take the opposite approach. The guy says enough  dumb stuff for me to let some things slide.

 

And I will repeat the Reapers are not so interested in secret documentation about secret bases that hold small populations. They want population centers and census data.  Turins having a hidden base on one of their moons is pretty damn irrelevant because it would be exposed during the harvest anyways. Though direct attack forcing the location to act, indoctrinated agents spilling the beans or the Reapers hacking data bases planet side that would eventually yield the information. Or if nothing else the fact all the species were harvested would deplete the population to a level that it couldn't sustain it's self anymore genetically.

 

People liken the Council as UN but it goes far beyond that. The laws they make are followed by everyone. Hence why the Council passed Treaty of Farixen the rest of the council races including humanity when they joined agreed to limit their military build up. They have every council race agreeing to use the same currency when dealing with different races. Creating the galactic standard Credit.

 

Maybe I've missed a few things but last I knew the UN couldn't forcibly stop countries from building up their military. That every Country still has their own form of currency rather then a single global currency.

 

They want it all. Their objective is the complete elimination of their target species.

 

As to the UN, things which are comparable don't have everything the exact same.

 

 

 

A lot of the data mentioned, like colonies, population numbers, resources is probably open access on the Extranet or Beaconpaedia (or whatever the protheans called their extranet).

 

I read this but I wanted it to be Baconpedia. Now I'm sad

[Dantriges]

The prothean baconpaedia? You don´t want to read the recipes there, unless you really wanna know how to properly make bacon out of your fellow sapients.

[Iakus]

The prothean baconpaedia? You don´t want to read the recipes there, unless you really wanna know how to properly make bacon out of your fellow sapients.

Bah, it's all organic life, what does it matter which species it came from?  

[Natureguy85]

The prothean baconpaedia? You don´t want to read the recipes there, unless you really wanna know how to properly make bacon out of your fellow sapients.

 

Not Prothean. It's not real bacon if it isn't pork. I want bacon!

[Ghost]

The Control and Synthesis endings break the cycle. Destroy ending does not, it merely delays it and nothing is explicitly stated that Control or Synthesis backfire so there's that. 

[StarcloudSWG]

And yet during ME3 we talk a run though massive data archives during the Citadel DLC. You and others are trying to alter it to mean all this other stuff that doesn't matter. Reaper's aren't interested in secret government tests to see what happens when you duct tape two Asari together or seeing if they sew 3 Vorcha ass to mouth if they would **** gold.

 

"I saw one galactic archive in the game and it was on the Citadel. Therefore all previous cycles stored all their information on the Citadel and that is the primary reason the Reapers should take the Citadel."

 

This is not a logical argument.

 

"I saw one chicken cross this road, therefore ALL chickens in the past have crossed this road."

 

You may benefit from a course in basic logic to understand why this argument fails.

[StarcloudSWG]

The Control and Synthesis endings break the cycle. Destroy ending does not, it merely delays it and nothing is explicitly stated that Control or Synthesis backfire so there's that. 

 

Destroy also breaks the cycle. Because the cycle is very specifically the cycle of the Reapers coming around every fifty thousand years to harvest galactic civilizations. No more Reapers, no more cycle.

 

You have to remember this: the cycle is an artificial construct imposed by giving emerging civilizations a quick and easy path to advanced technologies. It's the Catalyst's experiment, repeated over and over every fifty thousand years, coming to the same end every time because the Catalyst's creations interfere with the parameters to force the same outcome.

 

SOVEREIGN tells you this IN THE FIRST GAME even. "By using our technology, your civilizations develop along the paths we desire."

Legion reinforces this. "There are many paths to the same end. By using another's path, it blinds you to alternatives."

 

The Protheans were *winning* against the Zha'Til, until the Reapers interfered.

 

There is nothing in the game that proves the Catalyst's hardwired belief that synthetics will destroy all organic life. It's an unproven, unprovable and actually disprovable statement.

 

Leviathan tells you that some of the civilizations they dominated were destroyed by their own synthetic creations. It happened over and over, they claim. And YET, somehow, organic life still survived, it wasn't wiped out by synthetics. If the Catalyst's hardwired belief was true, then the Leviathans would never have survived long enough to build the Catalyst.

[Natureguy85]

The Control and Synthesis endings break the cycle. Destroy ending does not, it merely delays it and nothing is explicitly stated that Control or Synthesis backfire so there's that. 

 

Destroy breaks the cycle because the Reapers are gone and therefore can't do the resetting. You probably mean to say that it doesn't fix the underlying problem, but that problem has never presented itself in the story. It's never explicitly stated that Destroy backfires, but merely has the Catalyst's claim that the problem will still come back.

 

 

"I saw one galactic archive in the game and it was on the Citadel. Therefore all previous cycles stored all their information on the Citadel and that is the primary reason the Reapers should take the Citadel."

 

This is not a logical argument.

 

"I saw one chicken cross this road, therefore ALL chickens in the past have crossed this road."

 

You may benefit from a course in basic logic to understand why this argument fails.

 

That is a stronger argument against the Catalyst because the Catalyst is claiming the Synthetics destroying Organics arises naturally. Each cycle having a similarity like storing data in the Citadel is more likely due to the Reaper intervention and influence on development. To use your example, you saw one chicken cross the road knowing chickens are hatched on one side and there is food on the other.

[Ghost]

Destroy breaks the cycle because the Reapers are gone and therefore can't do the resetting. You probably mean to say that it doesn't fix the underlying problem, but that problem has never presented itself in the story. It's never explicitly stated that Destroy backfires, but merely has the Catalyst's claim that the problem will still come back.

 

 

 

That is a stronger argument against the Catalyst because the Catalyst is claiming the Synthetics destroying Organics arises naturally. Each cycle having a similarity like storing data in the Citadel is more likely due to the Reaper intervention and influence on development. To use your example, you saw one chicken cross the road knowing chickens are hatched on one side and there is food on the other.

Thanks probably should have worded that a bit better. The problem is never presented into the story because the Reapers harvest all life before civilizations reaches that level of advancement. I didn't mean to say destroy backfires (unless low EMS) but that the other endings do not backfire. A lot of discussion/criticism around the control and synthesis endings are a lot of what ifs. 

[Natureguy85]

Thanks probably should have worded that a bit better. The problem is never presented into the story because the Reapers harvest all life before civilizations reaches that level of advancement. I didn't mean to say destroy backfires (unless low EMS) but that the other endings do not backfire. A lot of discussion/criticism around the control and synthesis endings are a lot of what ifs. 

 

True on both counts. On the first, that's a huge problem because the Catalyst is telling us to ignore the events of the series and take his word for it. On the second, what ends up happening is an argument after the fact. The "what ifs" are things you have to consider when actually making the choice.

[Monica21]

And yet during ME3 we talk a run though massive data archives during the Citadel DLC.

It's probably not as massive as you think. Just like millions of boxes of acid-free paper stored in acid-free folders in the basement of the National Archives looks really big, but you've got to go through a lot before you find much useful, depending on what you're looking for. Just google a finding aid for anything at the National Archives.
 

You mention that DC is a target area so they don't store much there because of the risk. Well you out right ignore the face the Citadel is the exact opposite of it. It is the most secure location in the entire galaxy. There were two major conflicts that happened in the ME story line. Rachnii War and Krogan Rebellion. Yet neither managed to damage the Citadel at all. Once those arms close the attackers could spend every minute of every day for the rest of eternity attacking and would deal a scrap of damage to the armor surrounding it.

None of this has anything to do with my argument. My argument is in response to yours about a **** ton of data being stored on the Citadel and that being why the Reapers wanted it. I said that there's a lot of data the Reapers would want that probably isn't on the Citadel. How secure the Citadel is has no bearing on why the Reapers would want it.
 

The governmental system adapted by the species of the galaxy in relation to Council controlled space as well as past examples of how the Council controls/has a say in colonization of planets. Leads all this to a very simple conclusion that information such as that which would be useful to the Reapers would exist on the Citadel.

The only other example we have is the Protheans, and the Protheans did not use the Citadel the same way we did. The entire reason Javik wanted to go to the Citadel was because he couldn't believe galactic civilizations shared power.
 

Seriously Balak says in ME1 one of the big reason Batarians hate humans is because the Council gave them colonies on resource rich worlds over the Batarians even though they were new to the galaxy. When they protested and were ignored they closed up their embassy and left.

Oh, good. You remember one half of the conversation.
 

I have in game proof to back up my claim. Your proof is what?

What do you have proof of? That there's information on the Citadel? I never denied that there was. I said that your analogy of the Citadel Archives being anything like the National Archives was incorrect, and I actually have real life experience in this area. You're making a strategic conclusion about Reaper motivations on a few lines in a video game, and basing it entirely on guesswork about a real life organization. That's just stupid. Stop guessing at things you don't understand.

[gothpunkboy89]

.....................

 

No I've already a dozen times pointed out the flaws in Vigil's logic of how things happened. I shouldn't need to explain it again for the 110th time to you. 90% of the info Vigil gives you it shouldn't have any ability to give. The only information Vigil should be able to give is about the planet going dark, slowly killing off staff members to maintain power and that the scientists used the conduit to go to the Citadel were they planned to alter the Keeper signal.  It would have no way to monitor the Reapers progress. It would have no way to know the Reapers are trapped. Which you claim is 100% accurate. And it's own statement about communication across the empire being destroyed means it would have no way for the scientist to send the over ride codes to him. Which would mean they would have to have developed it on Illos and not the citadel which makes no logical sense. Since the over ride was designed to work with Citadel systems and temporarily over ride Reaper control. Which would be impossible because they wouldn't have any systems to work with. Even within the confines of the ME1 game his statements have large flaws and make no sense.

 

As for AI's existence on the Citadel it does nothing to the story line. Considering it's entire purpose is to watch and observe. It created the Reapers to do a job for it while it sits back and studies. It is a passive being that takes no direct hand in the actions of the galaxy. Unlike the Reapers. In fact it still require Shepard to do anything and even the refuse ending simply goes back to watching and letting the Reapers do all the work.

 

The revelation on Thessia does impact the plot. The Crucible would have been found well before the Reapers invaded. They would have gained a ton of knowledge about them which would have helped with the war with them. It is heavily hinted that Liara's messages left behind in time capsules containing all the data on the crucible, reapers and their war is what led that cycle to victory over them in the Refuse ending. The Protheans did the same thing in a way. The very second Shepard mentions the Reapers the entire Asari Government should have been behind him. This would have lent a ton of legitimacy to his story in ME1. The the Asari backing and the sharing of that information the Turian and Salarians would be behind them as well. Not only better equipped but the Crucible would have been constructed and attached already waiting for the first sign of a Reaper invasion. This would have vastly altered the Variable prompting the AI to reveal it's self much sooner. Possibly before the Reapers even reach the galaxy.

 

The AI isn't the antagonist of the entire series. The Reapers are there is a subtle but find distinction between the two. And he is foreshadowed rewatch the conversation with the VI on Thessia. The biggest is the Reapers give no choice while the AI offers Shepard a choice.

 

And that is my problem with the battle of the Citadel. The Geth didn't show up at close right right away. The Destiny is so large it would have plenty of space for non main guns. The frigates moving around would have done massive damage to the Geth fleet. The grand reveal of the Reaper and Geth's power is plot altering how the fight works to come out as they want it. While Sovergin sits with a stick up it's ass shooting at stationary targets while everyone complains about how powerful it is. Joker is the only one to realize that maybe lining up like 15th century musket users against  a cannon isn't a good idea. Hence the fizzle part.

 

The Catalyst has always existed in the ME story line. He wasn't introduced until ME3 but that is like saying the the Blue Suns and everything they have done doesn't count because they weren't introduced till ME2. Elrond's back story wasn't introduced until books after the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Yet it is considered cannon now. The same applies here.

 

Your statement is there is another ways to do things. You offer no examples to back up your claim other methods were possible. If you are going to claim orange juice can cure cancer I expect some examples of it to back up the claim.

[gothpunkboy89]

It's probably not as massive as you think. Just like millions of boxes of acid-free paper stored in acid-free folders in the basement of the National Archives looks really big, but you've got to go through a lot before you find much useful, depending on what you're looking for. Just google a finding aid for anything at the National Archives.
 

None of this has anything to do with my argument. My argument is in response to yours about a **** ton of data being stored on the Citadel and that being why the Reapers wanted it. I said that there's a lot of data the Reapers would want that probably isn't on the Citadel. How secure the Citadel is has no bearing on why the Reapers would want it.
 

The only other example we have is the Protheans, and the Protheans did not use the Citadel the same way we did. The entire reason Javik wanted to go to the Citadel was because he couldn't believe galactic civilizations shared power.
 

Oh, good. You remember one half of the conversation.
 

What do you have proof of? That there's information on the Citadel? I never denied that there was. I said that your analogy of the Citadel Archives being anything like the National Archives was incorrect, and I actually have real life experience in this area. You're making a strategic conclusion about Reaper motivations on a few lines in a video game, and basing it entirely on guesswork about a real life organization. That's just stupid. Stop guessing at things you don't understand.

 

 

Actually it is because most of that information is digitized as well as all those massive storage canisters that were able to hold all of Shep's crew. Seriously watch the pull out as you get locked in one. The true size and scope of the Citadel is never fully set up.

 

As for the rest of my post the Protheans VI's and Javik mention the Reapers got a hold of the location of every planet settled and census data. That is what I repeatedly stated is what the Reapers are after. You keep trying to alter the conversation to being about something else. They knew were to strike with no planet but Ilos hidden. Because of the effect of missing Ilos and the effect of that they would defiantly want to make sure a repeat doesn't happen this time.

 

It doesn't matter if Javik can't believe that the citizen of the galaxy share power. The point of the citadel is to get each cycle to turn it into their galactic capital. Be it a totalitarian dictatorship or a galactic democracy or any version of government can exist. So when they attack they not only harvest all important members creating chaos in the governments. But they get access to all the data they would store there like what planets have who on them.

 

Which I am waiting for your example how this is wrong. Considering in game it is directly stats that the Council gave Humanity colonies over the Batarians creating bad blood because they felt humans were strong enough already. AND the fact the Quarians were threaten to be kicked off a planet they petitioned to colonize because they started to colonize it before they petitioned it. Thus were threatened with Council fleets to vacate the planet and gave it to the Elcor.

[Monica21]

You keep trying to alter the conversation to being about something else.

This could not be more false. Let me repeat your argument again: "The National Archives is in DC because it's the capital of the US so therefore it has a **** ton of data and the Citadel is set up the same way."

I've told you repeatedly why your argument about the Archives is wrong. If anyone keeps moving the goalposts here it's you. And I won't engage with you about other arguments unless you can figure out how to respond to the one you've actually presented.

[Natureguy85]

No I've already a dozen times pointed out the flaws in Vigil's logic of how things happened.

 

Yes, and you’ve been consistently wrong. Congratulations.

 

 

 

 90% of the info Vigil gives you it shouldn't have any ability to give. The only information Vigil should be able to give is about the planet going dark, slowly killing off staff members to maintain power and that the scientists used the conduit to go to the Citadel were they planned to alter the Keeper signal.  It would have no way to monitor the Reapers progress. It would have no way to know the Reapers are trapped. Which you claim is 100% accurate. And it's own statement about communication across the empire being destroyed means it would have no way for the scientist to send the over ride codes to him. Which would mean they would have to have developed it on Illos and not the citadel which makes no logical sense. Since the over ride was designed to work with Citadel systems and temporarily over ride Reaper control. Which would be impossible because they wouldn't have any systems to work with. Even within the confines of the ME1 game his statements have large flaws and make no sense.

 

If you don’t like any of the handwave explanations I’ve given and can’t think of any yourself, then Vigil’s knowledge is indeed a minor plot hole. However, it doesn’t derail the story. Again, he knows because he must know. His role in the story is to inform the audience, in this case the player. Also keep in mind that the first game was an homage to old sci-fi TV shows, which often had stuff like that.

The Catalyst, on the other hand, is trying to reframe the entire series.

 

 

 

 

As for AI's existence on the Citadel it does nothing to the story line. Considering it's entire purpose is to watch and observe. It created the Reapers to do a job for it while it sits back and studies. It is a passive being that takes no direct hand in the actions of the galaxy. Unlike the Reapers. In fact it still require Shepard to do anything and even the refuse ending simply goes back to watching and letting the Reapers do all the work.

 

 

The AI’s existence on the Citadel makes Sovereign’s actions in Mass Effect pointless. It most certainly harms the story line. The Catalyst says it controls the Reapers. It set the cycle into motion. It made its initial servants kill the Leviathans and make Harbinger. The reason it requires Shepard is because of the “cannot be forced” BS (and in the meta, so the player can pick). Why do you claim that it’s stupid for the Reapers to have a Relay in Dark Space but think it makes sense for the Catalyst to be unable to control the Citadel, which it says is part of it?

 

 

 

The revelation on Thessia does impact the plot. The Crucible would have been found well before the Reapers invaded. They would have gained a ton of knowledge about them which would have helped with the war with them. It is heavily hinted that Liara's messages left behind in time capsules containing all the data on the crucible, reapers and their war is what led that cycle to victory over them in the Refuse ending. The Protheans did the same thing in a way. The very second Shepard mentions the Reapers the entire Asari Government should have been behind him. This would have lent a ton of legitimacy to his story in ME1. The the Asari backing and the sharing of that information the Turian and Salarians would be behind them as well. Not only better equipped but the Crucible would have been constructed and attached already waiting for the first sign of a Reaper invasion. This would have vastly altered the Variable prompting the AI to reveal it's self much sooner. Possibly before the Reapers even reach the galaxy.

 

 

So what difference did learning about the Beacon on Thessia make? You explained why hiding it impacted the plot. How does the reveal impact it? It doesn’t. It changes nothing. It actually would have been cool to have this happen in the second game. Then there would be an uproar against the Asari while Shepard is trying to bring everyone together and get them to focus on bigger things.

 

 

 

The AI isn't the antagonist of the entire series. The Reapers are there is a subtle but find distinction between the two. And he is foreshadowed rewatch the conversation with the VI on Thessia. The biggest is the Reapers give no choice while the AI offers Shepard a choice.

 

Saren and Sovereign are the antagonists of Mass Effect.

Harbinger is the antagonist of Mass Effect 2.

TIM and the Reapers generally are the antagonists of Mass Effect 3.

The Catalyst is indeed the antagonist of the series as a whole as it was the one driving all of the events. If you don’t like that, the Catalyst is at least the Big Bad. I said the Catalyst was barely foreshadowed. I know Vendetta alludes to it. That Shepard is offered a choice has no bearing on if one is an antagonist or not.

 

 

 

And that is my problem with the battle of the Citadel. The Geth didn't show up at close right right away. The Destiny is so large it would have plenty of space for non main guns. The frigates moving around would have done massive damage to the Geth fleet. The grand reveal of the Reaper and Geth's power is plot altering how the fight works to come out as they want it. While Sovergin sits with a stick up it's ass shooting at stationary targets while everyone complains about how powerful it is. Joker is the only one to realize that maybe lining up like 15th century musket users against  a cannon isn't a good idea. Hence the fizzle part.

 

Yes, the scene is constructed to get to the end result it wants. Welcome to fiction. We have no idea how big the Geth fleet is. Well I do; it’s as big as it needs to be. So maybe they did kill a lot of Geth ships but there were still too many. Or, as the scene shows when Sovereign is charging, maybe they focused their fire on the largest threat. The Geth most certainly did show up at relatively close range though, what the codex calls “medium” range, much closer than dreadnaughts like to fight at.

 

As to the last bit, I’m pretty sure Sovereign could hit moving targets without a problem, especially at that range. There also wasn’t a lot of room to maneuver with that many ships in a small space. Now, you can question why they are all inside the Citadel arms given the range of their guns. Maybe in case the arms closed again.

 

 

 

The Catalyst has always existed in the ME story line. He wasn't introduced until ME3 but that is like saying the the Blue Suns and everything they have done doesn't count because they weren't introduced till ME2. Elrond's back story wasn't introduced until books after the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Yet it is considered cannon now. The same applies here.

 

The Catalyst is a retcon. He did not exist when Mass Effect was written, and probably not when Mass Effect 2 was made. He was retroactively inserted into the storyline by the writer. I’ve always reserved the term for things that violate what came before, but this definition includes anything done retroactively, even if it doesn’t expressly contradict anything. So I wouldn't have included the Blue Suns, but the website would. However, the Blue Suns don't matter. They are just a merc group and mooks to shoot.  Elrond's back story doesn't matter to the Lord of the Rings.

 

 

 

Your statement is there is another ways to do things. You offer no examples to back up your claim other methods were possible. If you are going to claim orange juice can cure cancer I expect some examples of it to back up the claim.

 

I’ve also named specific fixes, but I don’t necessarily have to come up with a better idea to say what was done was terrible. You really need to go study analogies. You have no idea how they work or how to use them.