2441 réponses à ce sujet

[Dantriges]

Legion mentions how slow the dissemination of information is with organics in ME2. Hackett specifically stats that VI's can process thousands of status reports and react in nano seconds. None of these statements are truly build on during the rest of the trilogy. They are simply used as off hand comments. I only used that extremely specific part of Halo because they actually brought that important information to the front rather then just making it an off hand comment.

 

Others try and use massive chunks of other games to validate their statement for this game. I use a tiny sliver of another game to reinforce a point made in the game that was never brought out of the background.

 

AI's exist in a different time frame then we do. That combined with exponential rate of growth due to how easy it is to spread information which is brought up several times by Legion about the Geth is why conflict with advance synthetic life would be the death or organics.

 

The geth are networked VIs, which is different from an AI. We haven´t seen exponential growth in their case, because of hardware limits. Synthesis produces a organic-synthetic hybrid or an organic with some synth bits, which is still mostly meat in either case. The wetware between your ears is still an organic brain, perhaps enhanced with some new shiny wires and galactic WLAN (and you can now feel the plants). That won´t result in lightspeed computing organics. 

 

Nice try, I remember that debate. it wasn´t more than you did here.

 

The geth had 300 years to grow exponentially.   

[Elhanan]

Even dead they indoctrinate (remember Reaper IFF mission?). They indoctrinate by simply existing. If you say that synthetic parts make organics immune to indoctrination then I'm done.

Not immune; unnecessary as all life is now evolved past the set goals. Give peas a chance....

[BloodyMares]

Not immune; unnecessary as all life is now evolved past the set goals. Give peas a chance....

Unnecessary, yes, but they still indoctrinate. Every Reaper can control everyone if it wishes to. The Reapers are 'alive' in Synthesis ending so every one of them is conscious and isn't controlled by the Catalyst. And they can indoctrinate everyone to follow their will and eventually they can enslave other species. Imagine if you could indoctrinate people and couldn't control it. Just by being around you, they praise you and want to follow your command. What would you do? Tell them to stop following you? It won't work. The peace can come only if Reapers indoctrinate everyone into peaceful behavior but in this case they will be mindless husks. How is that good for the universe? In ME1 you didn't spare the Thorian, in ME3 there's no reason to spare the Reapers.

[Natureguy85]

But it is stated in game how ever it is only and off hand comment by Legion

 

All that stuff says is that computers process information faster. Thank you Obviousman. That was never in question. The question was where it is suggested that Synthesis allows Organics to operate similarly.

 

 

Many different forms of their technology has shown to be able to indoctrinate simply by being around it long enough.  It would be possible if the mind had enough synthetic augmentation to be rendered indoctrination immune.  The Reapers never indoctrinated the Geth. First they offered them a deal in exchange for their help. To give them everything they aspired to. The second time they forcibly took control of them over riding their VI "brains" to do what they wanted them to do.

 

They don't Indoctrinate the Geth because they don't really have brains. Indoctrination works on Organic brains. The level of augmentation you would need is to no longer need brain waves.

[Elhanan]

Unnecessary, yes, but they still indoctrinate. Every Reaper can control everyone if it wishes to. The Reapers are 'alive' in Synthesis ending so every one of them is conscious and isn't controlled by the Catalyst. And they can indoctrinate everyone to follow their will and eventually they can enslave other species. Imagine if you could indoctrinate people and couldn't control it. Just by being around you, they praise you and want to follow your command. What would you do? Tell them to stop following you? It won't work. The peace can come only if Reapers indoctrinate everyone into peaceful behavior but in this case they will be mindless husks. How is that good for the universe? In ME1 you didn't spare the Thorian, in ME3 there's no reason to spare the Reapers.

So? My Shepard could also Dominate, as can the Leviathans. Asari, Salarians, and Krogan all have enormous life spans compared to Humans and Turians. Simply because one has the ability to do great harm, or is not like another species is not reason for genocide. Synthesis works.

[gothpunkboy89]

The geth are networked VIs, which is different from an AI. We haven´t seen exponential growth in their case, because of hardware limits. Synthesis produces a organic-synthetic hybrid or an organic with some synth bits, which is still mostly meat in either case. The wetware between your ears is still an organic brain, perhaps enhanced with some new shiny wires and galactic WLAN (and you can now feel the plants). That won´t result in lightspeed computing organics. 

 

Nice try, I remember that debate. it wasn´t more than you did here.

 

The geth had 300 years to grow exponentially.   

 

 

Geth were handicapped due to the fact they are networked VI's. Thousands of programs were needed to create even basic intelligence. Legion despite being a mobile platform that had double the standard amount of Geth still has to be let though the fire wall EDI created. Even while she was still in her shackled state. Geth in their Dyson Sphere might have had some luck. But due to again their limitations the second any one left said sphere they would be reduced in brain power. Requiring a direct link to the sphere to maintain the large chunk of information. They were not designed to do more then simplistic tasks. Their memory holding isn't that good hence their requirement of massive data bases to store info in.

 

Don't forget the entire purpose of the cycle is to harvest advance life before they develop enough to create synesthetic creations that are capable of killing them.

 

It doesn't need to be 100% synthetic to gain advantages they have. If it is an organic brain with synthetic upgrades it could achieve well beyond what it would normally be capable of. The path ways that control our thinking and reaction time are much slower then the path ways on a computer. Storage space is also an issue the human brain anyways can only store so much information and even that is corrupted over time.  Even today we are able to store TB of data in storage units small enough to fit in the palm of our hands.  ME universe is far more advanced and even seems to have developed into quantum computers territory. But simply using an omni tool as a point of reference. They are already capable of storing large amounts of information in very tiny forms.

 

Synthesis represent a massive jump forward in technology. The hybridization of organic and synthetic into a single being would allow this set up to take place. We as right now are only just starting to really develop prosthetic body parts capable of interacting with our nervous system as if they were real limbs. It is still in it's infancy and has a long long way to go before it would even vaugly become practical to use. But if we can do that why not in the reverse?

[gothpunkboy89]

All that stuff says is that computers process information faster. Thank you Obviousman. That was never in question. The question was where it is suggested that Synthesis allows Organics to operate similarly.

 

 

 

They don't Indoctrinate the Geth because they don't really have brains. Indoctrination works on Organic brains. The level of augmentation you would need is to no longer need brain waves.

 

People seem to over look that fact when trying to bring up that synthetic and organic conflict can't really happen. That is a fundamental and important difference that is contently over looked.  As for indoctrination not really. Just a few parts in the right place would allow you to resist it. Maybe not make you immune but since it can not effect technology those parts of your brain would be protected.

[Dantriges]

Well the dead Reaper indoctrinates, but doesn´t need to mean that Reapers have no control over the indoctrination process or that they are unable tos hut it off. The codex describes the choice between fast and slow indoctrination as a deliberate choice IIRC.

 

And well the Reaper is "dead" but there are subsystems still working. It still keeps a masseffect field running. It could be that the central intelligence of the Reaper is dead, but there are still some subsystems running on auto or that it still works in a very reduced capacity. 

Perhaps the indoctrination fields are on and running rampant, because the controlling instance is gone or perhaps uncontrolled indoctrination is limited to te interior of a Reaper.

 

No idea if the piece of hull metal they had in Bryson´s labs actually indoctrinates or if some laymen went with better safe than sorry. Personally I think that part is completely bonkers anyways.

[gothpunkboy89]

So? My Shepard could also Dominate, as can the Leviathans. Asari, Salarians, and Krogan all have enormous life spans compared to Humans and Turians. Simply because one has the ability to do great harm, or is not like another species is not reason for genocide. Synthesis works.

 

Salarians actually have one of the shortest life spans of all the races. How ever they do make up for it by being arguably the smartest race in the galaxy.

[Elhanan]

Salarians actually have one of the shortest life spans of all the races. How ever they do make up for it by being arguably the smartest race in the galaxy.

Dunno; Mordin invented the Genophage, and then cured it. That process took over a thousand years.

[gothpunkboy89]

Dunno; Mordin invented the Genophage, and then cured it. That process took over a thousand years.

 

I certainly understand how you would assume that. Took me my second play though to realize this as well. But what he did was modify the original genophage because the Krogan were beginning to adapt and over come it. There is a dialogue that in ME3 I think it is. Were he directly states if he was there when the original genophage was created he wouldn't have supported it.

 

Mordin was just over 40 years and already old. A talk pre suicide mission mentions a nephew that is only like 16 and already a I think college professor or something like that. Which Shepard thinks he is a super genius being that young. Which Mordin corrects about Salarian aging process.

[Reorte]

So? My Shepard could also Dominate, as can the Leviathans. Asari, Salarians, and Krogan all have enormous life spans compared to Humans and Turians. Simply because one has the ability to do great harm, or is not like another species is not reason for genocide. Synthesis works.

Don't know which is scarier, what it must do to people in order to work, or that Shepard would choose it before knowing it works. In any case the end doesn't justify the means here.

[Elhanan]

Don't know which is scarier, what it must do to people in order to work, or that Shepard would choose it before knowing it works. In any case the end doesn't justify the means here.

As opposed to leaving galactic destruction or a demi-god in the wake? Or do nothing? Personally I choose to go with what is present, and it worked. Synthesis FTW.

[themikefest]

As opposed to leaving galactic destruction or a demi-god in the wake? Or do nothing? Personally I choose to go with what is present, and it worked. Synthesis FTW.

Picking destroy works. Reapers destroyed. Excellent. Galaxy can solve their own problems without the interference of the reapers. Good. People can have a future without having the threat of the reapers. Outstanding. That makes destroy 3 for 3. Cool. Oh yeah. Destroy for the win.

[Natureguy85]

People seem to over look that fact when trying to bring up that synthetic and organic conflict can't really happen. That is a fundamental and important difference that is contently over looked.  As for indoctrination not really. Just a few parts in the right place would allow you to resist it. Maybe not make you immune but since it can not effect technology those parts of your brain would be protected.

 

How about a little fire, Scarecrow? Nobody says that conflict can't happen. But yes, the Synthetic parts might be unaffected. So your robobrain will be ok. I guess everyone will be half-Indoctrinated.

 

 

 

Dunno; Mordin invented the Genophage, and then cured it. That process took over a thousand years.

 

No he didn't. I'd love to know where you got the first bit.

 

 

I certainly understand how you would assume that. Took me my second play though to realize this as well. But what he did was modify the original genophage because the Krogan were beginning to adapt and over come it. There is a dialogue that in ME3 I think it is. Were he directly states if he was there when the original genophage was created he wouldn't have supported it.

 

 

It took your second playthrough for you to realize something that is clearly stated? That explains a lot. That said, everybody does miss things sometimes.

[Elhanan]

Picking destroy works. Reapers destroyed. Excellent. Galaxy can solve their own problems without the interference of the reapers. Good. People can have a future without having the threat of the reapers. Outstanding. That makes destroy 3 for 3. Cool. Oh yeah. Destroy for the win.

Can also solve their problems without the use of EDI, the Geth, and other forms of synthetic life to uncover what does remain from the rubble. But we can wait another 50k years, and we will get to have the party again.

[Natureguy85]

Can also solve their problems without the use of EDI, the Geth, and other forms of synthetic life to uncover what does remain from the rubble. But we can wait another 50k years, and we will get to have the party again.

 

No, the Reapers are gone so they won't come back in 50,000 years. Oh, you meant the super-synthetics that didn't come up in the last 50,000 years? Maybe, but that's a claim made by the Catalyst without evidence. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. The series is about choice after all.

[Iakus]

  The series is about choice after all.

Thanks, I needed that laugh 

[Natureguy85]

Thanks, I needed that laugh 

 

I meant the theme of the story being about characters being able to choose, not you the player! Though you do point out a great irony of the series then.

[gothpunkboy89]

How about a little fire, Scarecrow? Nobody says that conflict can't happen. But yes, the Synthetic parts might be unaffected. So your robobrain will be ok. I guess everyone will be half-Indoctrinated

 

 

It took your second playthrough for you to realize something that is clearly stated? That explains a lot. That said, everybody does miss things sometimes.

 

Half indoctrinated could be enough to fight it if you are strong willed enough. Both TIM and Saren despite being indoctrinated have the ability to fight it enough to kill themselves rather then fully submit to the Reapers.

 

Yep first time I didn't pay all that much attention to the talking. More interested in seeing what happens next. Second play though I spend more time listening and trying to get every bit of dialogue in the game. We all play games differently and no one way is the single correct way. If you think there is only one way to play a game then you don't truly understand the point of video games.

[Natureguy85]

Half indoctrinated could be enough to fight it if you are strong willed enough. Both TIM and Saren despite being indoctrinated have the ability to fight it enough to kill themselves rather then fully submit to the Reapers.

 

Yep first time I didn't pay all that much attention to the talking. More interested in seeing what happens next. Second play though I spend more time listening and trying to get every bit of dialogue in the game. We all play games differently and no one way is the single correct way. If you think there is only one way to play a game then you don't truly understand the point of video games.

 

Both Saren and TIM were fully Indoctrinated but  full control was not exercised so they'd retain utility. They only commit suicide after talking to Shepard.

 

That pretentious blather is hilarious. We're not talking about gameplay. We're talking about paying attention to details. Deliberately not paying attention would explain your poor understanding of the series.

[gothpunkboy89]

Both Saren and TIM were fully Indoctrinated but  full control was not exercised so they'd retain utility. They only commit suicide after talking to Shepard.

 

That pretentious blather is hilarious. We're not talking about gameplay. We're talking about paying attention to details. Deliberately not paying attention would explain your poor understanding of the series.

 

Full control rendered them brain dead. Their only use at that point would be to be transformed into husks. That is the double edge sword that is indoctrination from the Reaper stand point anyways. Not enough and they can shake it off. To much and it renders them useless.

 

No I understand the series fairly well. You to a lesser extent compared to others are the one continually trying to find excuses to make the series make less and less sense. It is fairly obvious that Bioware had some issues in fully telling the story they wanted to due to how it was created. I continually try to take what they did with it and "stitch" so to speak. The story together into a more coherent set up. Trying to fill in logic blanks, things they over looked for forgot about to make the story over all better.

 

Rather curious why a "fan" would be so happy to rip the stuffing out of the teddy bear it claims to like and scatter it to the 4 corners of the room just so they can complain some more because things didn't go exactly how they wanted them to go.

[Natureguy85]

Full control rendered them brain dead. Their only use at that point would be to be transformed into husks. That is the double edge sword that is indoctrination from the Reaper stand point anyways. Not enough and they can shake it off. To much and it renders them useless.

 

Thank you for repeating what I said.

 

 

 

 

No I understand the series fairly well. You to a lesser extent compared to others are the one continually trying to find excuses to make the series make less and less sense. It is fairly obvious that Bioware had some issues in fully telling the story they wanted to due to how it was created. I continually try to take what they did with it and "stitch" so to speak. The story together into a more coherent set up. Trying to fill in logic blanks, things they over looked for forgot about to make the story over all better.

 

You've made it quite clear that you don't. So it's not that I'm trying to make it make less sense, I'm just rejecting your attempts to make it make more sense. The problem is that you think it makes more sense for the Catalyst to not be able to control the most critical function of it's plan when it's connected to the thing.

 

 

 

Rather curious why a "fan" would be so happy to rip the stuffing out of the teddy bear it claims to like and scatter it to the 4 corners of the room just so they can complain some more because things didn't go exactly how they wanted them to go.

 

You really need to stop trying analogies. I'm a fan of the teddy bear and I'm mad that some jerk tore off the limbs and sewed on limbs from other animals. I want my bear back.

 

It's not that things didn't go the way I wanted, it's that they went a terrible, stupid way.

 

Also

 

[gothpunkboy89]

Thank you for repeating what I said.

 

You've made it quite clear that you don't. So it's not that I'm trying to make it make less sense, I'm just rejecting your attempts to make it make more sense. The problem is that you think it makes more sense for the Catalyst to not be able to control the most critical function of it's plan when it's connected to the thing.

 

 

You really need to stop trying analogies. I'm a fan of the teddy bear and I'm mad that some jerk tore off the limbs and sewed on limbs from other animals. I want my bear back.

 

It's not that things didn't go the way I wanted, it's that they went a terrible, stupid way.

 

But that isn't what you said. You said they were fully indoctrinated but full control wasn't established. Full indoctrination is full control. Because any more and you turn into the captured Salarians on Virmire were they are just drooling and walking into walls. A partially synthetic brain would be able to resist even full control due to the synthetic parts. Requiring Reapers to push that indoctrination dial past into brain dead territory.

 

Opening and closing the arms are not critical functions. They would be critical to say the human living on the arms who doesn't want to be shot by a Reaper or stray round while they are fighting the Reapers. Any superficial damage done to the interior is easy to be repaired by the Keepers. Sovergin exploded on the Citadel Tower and only caused minor damage to the tower. The real damage was done strictly to the building that the species of the galaxy live in. AKA none important areas to the Citadel as a whole.

[Natureguy85]

But that isn't what you said. You said they were fully indoctrinated but full control wasn't established. Full indoctrination is full control. Because any more and you turn into the captured Salarians on Virmire were they are just drooling and walking into walls. A partially synthetic brain would be able to resist even full control due to the synthetic parts. Requiring Reapers to push that indoctrination dial past into brain dead territory.

 

I know all that. I'm saying that they can be fully Indoctrinated, and the Reaper capable of exerting more control, but it applies only subtle control to allow the subject more utility. You're saying that the Reapers were not capable of fully controlling Saren or TIM. Ultimately, it makes little difference. As for the brain, only the synthetic parts would be immune. We don't know what a synthesized brain is like or how it functions so we don't know what affect Indoctrination would have on it. Not all parts of the brain are equally important or do the same things.

 

 

Opening and closing the arms are not critical functions. They would be critical to say the human living on the arms who doesn't want to be shot by a Reaper or stray round while they are fighting the Reapers. Any superficial damage done to the interior is easy to be repaired by the Keepers. Sovergin exploded on the Citadel Tower and only caused minor damage to the tower. The real damage was done strictly to the building that the species of the galaxy live in. AKA none important areas to the Citadel as a whole.

 

I notice you ignored the Citadel Relay function, the most important thing. Which is funny since you accuse me of looking for things to argue. More projection. More importantly it shows even more that you don't have an answer. Anyway, the control of the arms was critical enough in the first game. Sovereign needed them open to get in but he or Saren immediately closed them again to protect Sovereign.