2441 réponses à ce sujet

[gothpunkboy89]

I know all that. I'm saying that they can be fully Indoctrinated, and the Reaper capable of exerting more control, but it applies only subtle control to allow the subject more utility. You're saying that the Reapers were not capable of fully controlling Saren or TIM. Ultimately, it makes little difference. As for the brain, only the synthetic parts would be immune. We don't know what a synthesized brain is like or how it functions so we don't know what affect Indoctrination would have on it. Not all parts of the brain are equally important or do the same things.

 

 

 

I notice you ignored the Citadel Relay function, the most important thing. Which is funny since you accuse me of looking for things to argue. More projection. More importantly it shows even more that you don't have an answer. Anyway, the control of the arms was critical enough in the first game. Sovereign needed them open to get in but he or Saren immediately closed them again to protect Sovereign.

 

 

They can not control strong willed people fully. Think of what you will of both TIM and Saren they were both strong willed individuals. This was also shown with Liara's mother. They were able to temporarily break the indoctrination hold on on them to kill themselves rather then let themselves continue to be used as puppets. And in both TIM and Saren's case this is after they were "upgraded" with Reaper tech in their bodies.

 

The Relays also have their own on off switches. The Rachni War and First Contact War were both started due to species activating the Relays without thinking what could be on the other side. All Relays work in pairs. Even the multi point secondary ones need to pair with another relay to travel to it. Manually shutting them down which the Reapers should be capable of since you know they made them. And made them with the intent for them to go into shut down mode and reactivated each cycle. The entire logic of the Rachni War and Krogan Rebellion also makes no sense if the Citadel could control the Relays. Shutting off 1 Relay remotely would have ended the Rachni War before it began. Krogans would have been locked in solar systems with no way to reach other races to do damage.

 

The Citadel controlling the Relays and the 1 instance it actually showing any power to do so makes no sense the same way you tend to argue the existence of the AI on the Citadel makes no sense. There is one application of it right at the end of ME1. And only then to try and justify why the instant the Citadel was attacked the entire Council races didn't jump to defend it instantly. I suspect in ME1 there was probably a larger plot point about the Citadel and Relay control that was dropped or removed  leaving only the singular line from Vigil. Just like there was probably a plot point that explains why Liea didn't hug Chewie at the end despite what happened going for instead the brand new never seen before girl.

 

Sovereign didn't need protection. The Geth fleet was already in existence and was chewing apart the Citadel fleet.  According to the game all the relays around the Citadel were locked. So WTF did he need protection from?  And even afterwards he sat still and they couldn't damage him. The only reason Sovereign is destroyed even after getting the entirety of the 5th Fleet from humans to show up was because of plot device overload from Shepard killing his robo puppet.

[StarcloudSWG]

"Just like there was probably a plot point that explains why Liea didn't hug Chewie at the end despite what happened going for instead the brand new never seen before girl."

 

That wasn't a plot point. JJ Abrams admitted it was a mistake:

 

http://www.slashfilm...-force-awakens/

[Natureguy85]

They can not control strong willed people fully. Think of what you will of both TIM and Saren they were both strong willed individuals. This was also shown with Liara's mother. They were able to temporarily break the indoctrination hold on on them to kill themselves rather then let themselves continue to be used as puppets. And in both TIM and Saren's case this is after they were "upgraded" with Reaper tech in their bodies.

 

They most certainly can control them and they do it for the entirety of the first and third games. Those characters were only able to break the hold for a few moments before falling back under, and Saren and TIM do it only after goading from Shepard. As we've discussed, full control is not exercised on purpose because it makes the subject less useful. High profile subjects are given more freedom.

 

 

 

 

The Relays also have their own on off switches. The Rachni War and First Contact War were both started due to species activating the Relays without thinking what could be on the other side. All Relays work in pairs. Even the multi point secondary ones need to pair with another relay to travel to it. Manually shutting them down which the Reapers should be capable of since you know they made them. And made them with the intent for them to go into shut down mode and reactivated each cycle. The entire logic of the Rachni War and Krogan Rebellion also makes no sense if the Citadel could control the Relays. Shutting off 1 Relay remotely would have ended the Rachni War before it began. Krogans would have been locked in solar systems with no way to reach other races to do damage.

 

We know the Relays can be activated locally, but do we ever have record of them being deactivated locally? It's possible and is not an unreasonable inference if not.

 

The Citadel having the ability to control the network has nothing to do with the Rachni War or Krogan Rebellion. It's either a function only the Reapers can access or one that the Council was simply unaware of. Does the fact that they never used the Citadel Relay mean it actually isn't one?

 

 

 

The Citadel controlling the Relays and the 1 instance it actually showing any power to do so makes no sense the same way you tend to argue the existence of the AI on the Citadel makes no sense. There is one application of it right at the end of ME1. And only then to try and justify why the instant the Citadel was attacked the entire Council races didn't jump to defend it instantly. I suspect in ME1 there was probably a larger plot point about the Citadel and Relay control that was dropped or removed  leaving only the singular line from Vigil.

 

Wrong, as usual. Unlike the Catalyst, the Citadel controlling the Relays not only doesn't contradict or cause us to question anything from before that reveal, it makes sense given the Citadel's importance. There doesn't have to be one, but there's no reason for there to not be a central command center for the whole thing. You like to reference Halo; I only played the first two so I don't know where it goes, but at the end of the second one, the little Administrator mentions a central control for activating all the Halos.

There's only one application right at the end of ME1 because it is a new revelation. There could have been another plot point about it, but it certainly wasn't necessary. The Reapers built the thing so it makes sense that they know of functions that others do not.

 

 

 

Sovereign didn't need protection. The Geth fleet was already in existence and was chewing apart the Citadel fleet.  According to the game all the relays around the Citadel were locked. So WTF did he need protection from?  And even afterwards he sat still and they couldn't damage him. The only reason Sovereign is destroyed even after getting the entirety of the 5th Fleet from humans to show up was because of plot device overload from Shepard killing his robo puppet.

 

This is a minor point, but you really don't have much on which you can even make a real argument against me.. Fine; then why did they bother closing the arms again?

 

Sovereign shutting down after the Saren puppet died was not a "plot device." It was probably dropped foreshadowing, something that would have become important going forward. I don't think you were supposed to understand it in the moment.

 

 

Edit: I also found this when checking one of my own posts:

 

 

 

Sovergin played it stealthy because a single Reaper couldn't stand up to the combined forces of the Galaxy.

 

So make up your mind.

[StarcloudSWG]

Sovereign shutting down after the Saren puppet died was not a "plot device." It was probably dropped foreshadowing, something that would have become important going forward. I don't think you were supposed to understand it in the moment.

 

Actually, they used this again in ME 2, showing how the Reapers were able to work around that weakness.

Harbinger controls the Collector General, who then controls collector drones in the same way that Sovereign transformed / controlled Saren at the very end of Mass Effect. By using the Collector General as a circuit-breaker, Harbinger protects itself from the disorientation and debility caused when a directly controlled puppet gets destroyed.

 

Thus handily and neatly eliminating it as a weakness to be exploited.

[MisterJB]

Except you don't become a god.  You burn and die.

 

At best, you gave birth to a god (for a given value of "god"), and died in the process.

In his house in the Citadel, dead Shepard waits dreaming.

[Natureguy85]

Actually, they used this again in ME 2, showing how the Reapers were able to work around that weakness.

Harbinger controls the Collector General, who then controls collector drones in the same way that Sovereign transformed / controlled Saren at the very end of Mass Effect. By using the Collector General as a circuit-breaker, Harbinger protects itself from the disorientation and debility caused when a directly controlled puppet gets destroyed.

 

Thus handily and neatly eliminating it as a weakness to be exploited.

 

Yes, or as someone else pointed out, it could be that Harbinger releases control as the body dies. However, the concept could be used again if there was no go between. That was likely something the Collectors were designed to be able to do.

 

However, I did say it could have become important. They simply decided not to use it.

[Iakus]

In his house in the Citadel, dead Shepard waits dreaming.

Okay THAT would make for interesting sequel fodder

[Avilan II]

Having started a new playthrough as yet another Infiltrator (by far my fav class) I went here and...

 

Can't believe this thread is still alive...

One thing still strikes me as funny: People who put their Fanon ahead of Canon and tries to argue that they are "correct". Aka the "indoctrination theory loons".

[gothpunkboy89]

Actually, they used this again in ME 2, showing how the Reapers were able to work around that weakness.

Harbinger controls the Collector General, who then controls collector drones in the same way that Sovereign transformed / controlled Saren at the very end of Mass Effect. By using the Collector General as a circuit-breaker, Harbinger protects itself from the disorientation and debility caused when a directly controlled puppet gets destroyed.

 

Thus handily and neatly eliminating it as a weakness to be exploited.

 

But if it had that same effect then the Collector General would be dead by now.  You do after all kill a lot of possessed collector units.

[gothpunkboy89]

They most certainly can control them and they do it for the entirety of the first and third games. Those characters were only able to break the hold for a few moments before falling back under, and Saren and TIM do it only after goading from Shepard. As we've discussed, full control is not exercised on purpose because it makes the subject less useful. High profile subjects are given more freedom.

 

 

We know the Relays can be activated locally, but do we ever have record of them being deactivated locally? It's possible and is not an unreasonable inference if not.

 

The Citadel having the ability to control the network has nothing to do with the Rachni War or Krogan Rebellion. It's either a function only the Reapers can access or one that the Council was simply unaware of. Does the fact that they never used the Citadel Relay mean it actually isn't one?

 

 

Wrong, as usual. Unlike the Catalyst, the Citadel controlling the Relays not only doesn't contradict or cause us to question anything from before that reveal, it makes sense given the Citadel's importance. There doesn't have to be one, but there's no reason for there to not be a central command center for the whole thing. You like to reference Halo; I only played the first two so I don't know where it goes, but at the end of the second one, the little Administrator mentions a central control for activating all the Halos.

There's only one application right at the end of ME1 because it is a new revelation. There could have been another plot point about it, but it certainly wasn't necessary. The Reapers built the thing so it makes sense that they know of functions that others do not.

 

 

This is a minor point, but you really don't have much on which you can even make a real argument against me.. Fine; then why did they bother closing the arms again?

 

Sovereign shutting down after the Saren puppet died was not a "plot device." It was probably dropped foreshadowing, something that would have become important going forward. I don't think you were supposed to understand it in the moment.

 

You seems to keep not understanding indoctrination it works in very specific ways. Saren and TIM were both under full control of the Reapers. They were indoctrinated to think what they were doing was good. At least as their own minds justify good. That is the pure essence of indoctrination. Everything the person does they think is for the best but really it is only.  Indoctrination only has 3 settings. Off, On, Off. Either not indoctrinated, indoctrinated, or brain dead.

 

In theory and my own personal head cannon the reason Shepard is able to resist indoctrination so well compared to others is because of the extensive cybernetic enhancement he received when he was revived.

 

During the events of ME1,2 and 3 I do actually question if the Citadel is a mass relay or not. Sovereign's entire play seems to be to sit on his chair and play turtle. Were he sits there for a fair amount of time with the citadel locked tight. There seems to be no powering up, no alterations in the way the Citadel functions other then it is on fire in many places due to all the fighting. Even the design of the Citadel makes no sense for a relay. Instantaneous transport  from hundreds of thousands of light years away in dark space. I just don't see how the Citadel could pull that off. Certainly not in a way that could be hidden easily.  Unless we are talking level of obliviousness of Lois Lane unable to tell Superman and Clark Kent apart thanks to a single handy pair of glasses.  Which makes the logic of just covering the eyes of Robin seems like complete facial reconstruction.

 

The amount of Element Zero needed to allow that kind of jump would be massive to alter the laws of space and time to that degree. How would it be contained to do so?  If it just acts as a bridge to allow the possibility of another relay in darkspace to link to it to allow them to jump using that one in darkspace. Why didn't they show up at all? Even just 1 Reaper should have been wondering. It has been 50k years. Why hasn't it activated yet? And been near it just out of sheer curiosity.  Yea it wouldn't have been the whole Reaper Fleet but one or two more Reapers there would have altered everything.

 

 

No Robo Saren being killed and causing a power surge is just that a plot device. Saren was more then capable of shooting at ships while fighting Shepard. But magically as soon as a drone is killed it overloads the entire Reaper. Which is stupid because if the body EDI got in ME3 was suddenly destroyed the Normandy wouldn't suddenly lose all systems.  When you lose connection to WiFi does your computer suddenly crash because it was playing an online game? Or does just the game crash because it lost connection and the rest of your computer remains perfectly ok.

[Iakus]

Having started a new playthrough as yet another Infiltrator (by far my fav class) I went here and...

 

Can't believe this thread is still alive...

One thing still strikes me as funny: People who put their Fanon ahead of Canon and tries to argue that they are "correct". Aka the "indoctrination theory loons".

Even funnier is IT is still better than the garbage fire that is the "canon" endings.

 

Edit:  And I don't even believe in IT

[BloodyMares]

When I was naive I believed in IT. But then I realized that it was just fans wanted to do Bioware's job and close all the plotholes and fix the franchise. What's funny, what we got in ME3 was exactly what we got in ME2. People loved it in ME2 and why make anything better if people praise it? Then people hated it in ME3 although the only difference was the Catalyst.

[Iakus]

When I was naive I believed in IT. But then I realized that it was just fans wanted to Bioware's job and close all the plotholes and fix the franchise. What's funny, what we got in ME3 was exactly what we got in ME2. People loved it in ME2 and why make anything better if people praise it? Then people hated it in ME3 although the only difference was the Catalyst.

I did not love ME2

[BloodyMares]

I did not love ME2

And who are you (no offence)? I said majority. Look up the Metacritics score of this game. It's 94. The majority of people loved this game and didn't even notice that they played an interactive action movie with poor plot, major retcons and lack of choice.

[Iakus]

And who are you (no offence)? I said majority. Look up the Metacritics score of this game. It's 94. The majority of people loved this game and didn't even notice that they played an interactive action movie with poor plot, major retcons and lack of choice.

I am me.

 

I am people.  People who did not praise ME2.  I noticed I was playing an interactive movie, the lack of choice, the thin to nonexistent plot.  And around the time I got to Haestrum, realized "This is it, this is the entire story" 

 

So not all of us lapped up up and wanted more with ME3.

[Elhanan]

And who are you (no offence)? I said majority. Look up the Metacritics score of this game. It's 94. The majority of people loved this game and didn't even notice that they played an interactive action movie with poor plot, major retcons and lack of choice.

Using Metacritic to defend any stance for a game is unwise. Flawed data, skewed equations, and false users can post anything.

[gothpunkboy89]

I am me.

 

I am people.  People who did not praise ME2.  I noticed I was playing an interactive movie, the lack of choice, the thin to nonexistent plot.  And around the time I got to Haestrum, realized "This is it, this is the entire story" 

 

So not all of us lapped up up and wanted more with ME3.

 

 

Yet here you are still on the forums after all this time. How long ago did the game come out?  You weren't impressed with the 2nd game. Weren't impressed with the 3rd game. And yet you stick around the forums to the game years after they came out. Usually that action is reserved for people that liked or enjoyed the series. Other wise there is no point to continue to complain about a game series that is well past it's play point.

 

Either you just like to complain to see yourself complain. Or you have one rather obsessive personality.  Seriously been 4 years. I wasn't happy with Resistance 3's ending. Yet only took me 6 months to stop caring about it because it was over and done with.  Even now when I visit Insomiac Games Forums for other games like Ratchet and Clank series I don't rush to the Resistance forums to continue to complain about a game that came out 5 years ago.

[Callidus Thorn]

Either you just like to complain to see yourself complain. Or you have one rather obsessive personality.

 

Or

 

He wants Bioware to go back to making the great RPGs it used to.

[BloodyMares]

Or

 

He wants Bioware to go back to making the great RPGs it used to.

This. But my faith is dying, really. The success of an RPG game lies on the writer. The ME1 was amazing because of the writers it had. But everything changed.

[ImaginaryMatter]

When I was naive I believed in IT. But then I realized that it was just fans wanted to do Bioware's job and close all the plotholes and fix the franchise. What's funny, what we got in ME3 was exactly what we got in ME2. People loved it in ME2 and why make anything better if people praise it? Then people hated it in ME3 although the only difference was the Catalyst.

 

Not the only difference. ME3 also had Kai Leng.

[gothpunkboy89]

Or

 

He wants Bioware to go back to making the great RPGs it used to.

 

Games were still great RPGS

 

 

This. But my faith is dying, really. The success of an RPG game lies on the writer. The ME1 was amazing because of the writers it had. But everything changed.

 

ME1 had as many plot holes at the other games did.  There are so many ass pull moments in ME1 how anyone can praise that game then condone the squeals doesn't make any sense.

[KaiserShep]

My personal favorite bit in ME1 is the scumbag Council.

 

Refuses to believe human eyewitness; takes quarian mp3 as gospel. 

[gothpunkboy89]

My personal favorite bit in ME1 is the scumbag Council.

 

Refuses to believe human eyewitness; takes quarian mp3 as gospel. 

 

Yep no proof but an audio file and that over rides everything else.

 

I'm sorry people ME1's story line was so tight how? In comparison to ME2 or 3?

[themikefest]

My personal favorite bit in ME1 is the scumbag Council.
 
Refuses to believe human eyewitness; takes quarian mp3 as gospel.

Tali could've been avoided.

 

Have Udina mention that there are reports of geth near Feros before losing communications with the colony. Shepard checks it out. The mission is the same as in the game. Shiala is not shot and is brought before the council to tell them what she told Shepard.

[ImaginaryMatter]

My personal favorite bit in ME1 is the scumbag Council.

 

Refuses to believe human eyewitness; takes quarian mp3 as gospel. 

 

Most of that sequence was rough. Was there ever a BioWare longish investigation quest that didn't have a convoluted ending? KOTOR has a bunch of these too. I wonder if it's just video game logic or something more along the lines of not noticing the mistakes until after resources were spent creating assets for everything in the mission?

 

ME1 had as many plot holes at the other games did.  There are so many ass pull moments in ME1 how anyone can praise that game then condone the squeals doesn't make any sense.

 

Good and bad writing is more than plot holes, they're just the parts that are most easy to identify and talk about. Usually, when you're enjoying something you tend not to notice them or they are less grating. For all of ME1's problems though, it never quite had something has awful as Cerberus in the main plot.