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[Natureguy85]

You seems to keep not understanding indoctrination it works in very specific ways. Saren and TIM were both under full control of the Reapers. They were indoctrinated to think what they were doing was good. At least as their own minds justify good. That is the pure essence of indoctrination. Everything the person does they think is for the best but really it is only.  Indoctrination only has 3 settings. Off, On, Off. Either not indoctrinated, indoctrinated, or brain dead.

 

That's what I said, but the Reaper can choose what level of Control to exercise over a subject. The Codex also describes speed of Indoctrination as mattering, but other dialogue makes it better to talk about the level of control. However:

 

 

 

They can not control strong willed people fully. Think of what you will of both TIM and Saren they were both strong willed individuals.

 

So pick a lane and stay in it.

 

Edit: Added the rest of the relevant statement.

 

 

In theory and my own personal head cannon the reason Shepard is able to resist indoctrination so well compared to others is because of the extensive cybernetic enhancement he received when he was revived.

 

That would not be a bad way to look at it, but the first game made several references to Shepard having an abnormally strong will. That's all they needed, but I do wish it had been brought up again

 

 

 

During the events of ME1,2 and 3 I do actually question if the Citadel is a mass relay or not. Sovereign's entire play seems to be to sit on his chair and play turtle. Were he sits there for a fair amount of time with the citadel locked tight. There seems to be no powering up, no alterations in the way the Citadel functions other then it is on fire in many places due to all the fighting. Even the design of the Citadel makes no sense for a relay. Instantaneous transport  from hundreds of thousands of light years away in dark space. I just don't see how the Citadel could pull that off. Certainly not in a way that could be hidden easily.  Unless we are talking level of obliviousness of Lois Lane unable to tell Superman and Clark Kent apart thanks to a single handy pair of glasses.  Which makes the logic of just covering the eyes of Robin seems like complete facial reconstruction.

 

The amount of Element Zero needed to allow that kind of jump would be massive to alter the laws of space and time to that degree. How would it be contained to do so?  If it just acts as a bridge to allow the possibility of another relay in darkspace to link to it to allow them to jump using that one in darkspace. Why didn't they show up at all? Even just 1 Reaper should have been wondering. It has been 50k years. Why hasn't it activated yet? And been near it just out of sheer curiosity.  Yea it wouldn't have been the whole Reaper Fleet but one or two more Reapers there would have altered everything.

 

True, for some reason it doesn't happen instantaneously. But if there is no Relay, then what is the point of the plot of ME1? Why is Sovereign even trying to take the Citadel? Why is he using Saren to find the Conduit?

 

Well the Citadel Relay is most important is a destination, so even if it was just the target for the Relay in Dark Space, that would work. However, we are told they went back through the Citadel Relay. There's no reason the Citadel shouldn't be capable of this. The Reapers made it.

 

As for the last bit; maybe, but didn't you also say that it's likely Sovereign communicated with Harbinger? That's a possibility and he just told them he was taking care of it. Of course, none of this makes sense if the Reaper fleet can just fly in via FTL in only a few years.

 

 

 

 

No Robo Saren being killed and causing a power surge is just that a plot device. Saren was more then capable of shooting at ships while fighting Shepard. But magically as soon as a drone is killed it overloads the entire Reaper. Which is stupid because if the body EDI got in ME3 was suddenly destroyed the Normandy wouldn't suddenly lose all systems.  When you lose connection to WiFi does your computer suddenly crash because it was playing an online game? Or does just the game crash because it lost connection and the rest of your computer remains perfectly ok.

 

No, it's not. A plot device has to be an actual thing; a device. Please learn what terms mean before you use them.

You must have a problem with the Matrix then, since people die in the real world if they die there. Why does Sovereign's control over Saren have to follow the rules of wifi or even EDI?  Those comparisons are totally irrelevant.

 

 

 

And who are you (no offence)? I said majority. Look up the Metacritics score of this game. It's 94. The majority of people loved this game and didn't even notice that they played an interactive action movie with poor plot, major retcons and lack of choice.

 

ME3 got an 89 on Metacritic. It's not like it was hated while ME2 was loved, at least on that site. Plenty of people noticed all of those things. I did but I enjoyed the game anyway because the gameplay was fun and most of the characters and character missions were great.

 

 

 

Yet here you are still on the forums after all this time. How long ago did the game come out?  You weren't impressed with the 2nd game. Weren't impressed with the 3rd game. And yet you stick around the forums to the game years after they came out. Usually that action is reserved for people that liked or enjoyed the series. Other wise there is no point to continue to complain about a game series that is well past it's play point.

 

Either you just like to complain to see yourself complain. Or you have one rather obsessive personality.  Seriously been 4 years. I wasn't happy with Resistance 3's ending. Yet only took me 6 months to stop caring about it because it was over and done with.  Even now when I visit Insomiac Games Forums for other games like Ratchet and Clank series I don't rush to the Resistance forums to continue to complain about a game that came out 5 years ago.

 

This is a common, weak argument of those who really can't deal with the criticisms at a substantive level. Why are you still here talking about it? Or is only praise allowed?

 

If Mass Effect sucked completely, we wouldn't care. The reason we talk about it is because they had something great and ruined it. It's "what could have been great."

 

 

 

 

ME1 had as many plot holes at the other games did.  There are so many ass pull moments in ME1 how anyone can praise that game then condone the squeals doesn't make any sense.

 

Not all plotholes are created equal. They don't damage things the same amount. Sometimes things can be silly but not be a plot hole. The Council taking the audio as irrefutable proof does seem silly, though it's Saren's own voice, but we roll with it so we can get to the meat of the game. It doesn't derail the story. The Catalyst derails the entire first game.

[dorktainian]

I like ME3 but both love and hate its ending.  I hate it in the narrative sense in that for the uninitiated it literally makes no sense whatsoever, however if you have been paying attention it makes perfect sense.  It has been flagged from the very first game.

 

Indoctrination.

 

For anyone doubting IT, read the indoctrination codex as to how rapid indoctrination leaves a person, then watch the15 minutes from the beam to where shepard and anderson part ways and shepard passes out.  Then listen to the background noise during this 15 minutes.  Eureka.

 

Just saying.

[Callidus Thorn]

Games were still great RPGS

Considering some of the mental gymnastics you've been going through in a couple of threads lately, I'm not even slightly surprised that you believe that.
 
Or, at least, that you claim to believe it.
 

I like ME3 but both love and hate its ending.  I hate it in the narrative sense in that for the uninitiated it literally makes no sense whatsoever, however if you have been paying attention it makes perfect sense.  It has been flagged from the very first game.
 
Indoctrination.
 
For anyone doubting IT, read the indoctrination codex as to how rapid indoctrination leaves a person, then watch the15 minutes from the beam to where shepard and anderson part ways and shepard passes out.  Then listen to the background noise during this 15 minutes.  Eureka.
 
Just saying.

 

And yet I'm still surprised that people still believe in IT.

 

And bad writing was screwing up the Mass Effect setting long before IT was dreamt up.

[Natureguy85]

I like ME3 but both love and hate its ending.  I hate it in the narrative sense in that for the uninitiated it literally makes no sense whatsoever, however if you have been paying attention it makes perfect sense.  It has been flagged from the very first game.

 

Indoctrination.

 

For anyone doubting IT, read the indoctrination codex as to how rapid indoctrination leaves a person, then watch the15 minutes from the beam to where shepard and anderson part ways and shepard passes out.  Then listen to the background noise during this 15 minutes.  Eureka.

 

Just saying.

 

I suggest you go replay Virmire and find the cell with multiple Salarians in it. That is what happens with rapid Indoctrination. Also, there is nothing about Indoctrination that suggests vivid, clear hallucinations like the scene with Anderson and TIM would have to be.

[BloodyMares]

Games were still great RPGS

 

 

 

ME1 had as many plot holes at the other games did.  There are so many ass pull moments in ME1 how anyone can praise that game then condone the squeals doesn't make any sense.

You're kidding, right? Mass Effect 1 was the only RPG compared to action-schlock that Mass Effect 2 and 3 are. Worldbuilding? Yes in ME1, no in ME2, and some in ME3. Choices? Yes in ME1, non-existent in ME2 (talking about main plot), partly in ME3 (only in storylines of Genophage and Geth started in ME1). Strong characters? Yes in all 3 games, but in ME2 and 3 characters often contradict themselves, especially human characters (damn Cerberus). Good dialogues? Yes in ME1 and very little in both ME2 and 3. In ME2 and 3 there are instances when your Main Character speaks on their own and says things completely opposite of what you expect them to say and even does stupid things because plot requires (12-party shore leave during IFF testing).

ME1 had silly moments, but they weren't as serious and important. There were no plotholes that contradicted the theme of the game, established facts or characters. It was consistent. In ME2 and 3 those plotholes are much more serious, the reasoning behind characters is stupid, new facts are retconned and contradict what ME1 told us. And what's worse than everything, ME2 and 3 made ME1 completely irrelevant and non-important. It could as well never happened and nothing would change. Apparently it was their goal because there were many people who started the trilogy from ME2.

[gothpunkboy89]

You're kidding, right? Mass Effect 1 was the only RPG compared to action-schlock that Mass Effect 2 and 3 are. Worldbuilding? Yes in ME1, no in ME2, and some in ME3. Choices? Yes in ME1, non-existent in ME2 (talking about main plot), partly in ME3 (only in storylines of Genophage and Geth started in ME1). Strong characters? Yes in all 3 games, but in ME2 and 3 characters often contradict themselves, especially human characters (damn Cerberus). Good dialogues? Yes in ME1 and very little in both ME2 and 3. In ME2 and 3 there are instances when your Main Character speaks on their own and says things completely opposite of what you expect them to say and even does stupid things because plot requires (12-party shore leave during IFF testing).

ME1 had silly moments, but they weren't as serious and important. There were no plotholes that contradicted the theme of the game, established facts or characters. It was consistent. In ME2 and 3 those plotholes are much more serious, the reasoning behind characters is stupid, new facts are retconned and contradict what ME1 told us. And what's worse than everything, ME2 and 3 made ME1 completely irrelevant and non-important. It could as well never happened and nothing would change. Apparently it was their goal because there were many people who started the trilogy from ME2.

 

 

ME2 did do world building. Working off what was already established on ME1 it showed what life was like in the galaxy out side of Council space. In the largely lawless region of the Traverse or what ever that area was called.

 

And what choices were in ME1 that were so important in relation to plot? Kill or not kill the Rachni Queen? Kill the council or don't? Which which one of 2 crew members will die?  Such choices much wow. Their effects on the plot is non existent in the game. No matter what you pick all that happens at best is a slight alternating of dialogue in the game.  Those choices had no effect on the plot for that game. Do all the side quests or just to the main quests. Save the queen or don't. You still get grounded by Council/Alliance. You still find the Conduit on Ilos. Sovereign still attacks the Citadel. And you still need to beat his puppet to get him to be killed.  You can still prefer ME1 over 2 or 3 but don't make stuff up about choices and their impact on the plot. ME2 and 3 have the same if not more impact on story from the choices you make in game.  Up to and including the loss of the Crew of the Normandy, character deaths at the end even going as far as for Shepard the main character to die. Preventing any importing data to ME3 if you really messed up.

 

Fairly certain that during any mission everyone goes with Shepard but breaks into different teams with Shepard taking point. Even withing the confines of this game 3 people being able to slaughter their way though enemies that kill entire battalions is to unrealistic.  And unless you got a Bioware Dev or some in game codex that states only 3 people ever leave the ship at one time. This is official head cannon to me. Thus it makes sense. Trying to control even a 6 person team without this being a RTS game would be impossible. Not to mention issues with system handling it. Same reason why the interior shots of the Normandy don't always match up to the over all size it would actually be. AKA the 2 second walk from Galaxy map to Joker is the same length in both games. Even though the SR-2 is a much larger ship.

 

As for dialogue it stays about the same quality across all 3 games.  You want to talk about stupid choices in game for plot reasons. How about how the Council takes an mp3 recording that is claimed to have come from a Geth unit. Presented by the Galaxy's version of gypsies over what 3 eye witness humans statements. Or lets not forget the time an Ambassador managed to ground not only a Council Specter. But also a special Ops N7 solider. I might not be completely up to date on how military functions but I'm fairly certain that Ambassadors don't have that kind of authority to do that. Not unless they were authorized by the Alliance Military leaders to do so. Oh and lets also not forget that time like 6 Salarians and 1 Human manage to distract the majority of people at Saren's secret base. Posing a threat to draw all the attention towards them some how. All happening for plot related reasons even though they make no sense.

 

There are plot holes that exist. The Citadel only works as a trap because of the assumption that species are to stupid to explore it. What was it 5,000 years since the Asari and Salarians discovered it and still no one explored it beyond surface level? Do you realize how out of character that is for the Salarians? How absolutely stupid the collective races of the galaxy would have to be to utilize a space station without understanding it? Then to make it the Galactic UN location?  Seriously do you think any nation on this planet would find a random sub floating in the water and then right away put the leader of their country in it without first taking it completely apart and learning everything about it before even vaugly considering what to do with it?  Lets talk about Rachni were suddenly a freshly born female queen can spontaneously start to give birth after being frozen in space for thousands of years. WTF is the point of male Rachni if queens who are the only ones that lay eggs can spontaneously get pregnant. Because some how their dad can knock them up even in unhatched egg form.

 

Or lets get to Vigil who contradicts itself in his own statements. How can communication be crippled across the empire yet it can track with precision the Reaper movements? How could it have a program to disable a Reaper's direct interface with Citadel yet not know the fate of the Researchers? Which would require direct contact with them to even get that program to exist. How would they even send it to Vigil if all communication relays were destroyed?  How come even though the entire Citadel Fleet and all Council Races were altered about Saren's attempted attack is only the 5th Fleet the only one responding to the attack? It isn't like Sovereign  or Saren is jamming communications other wise Joker would have never been able to contact Shepard in the first place.  How could the Geth fleet that was destroying the Citadel Fleet suddenly be routed by that same fleet taking a beating if you choose not to save the Council? The only reason they are even in danger is because the Citadel Fleet is struggling against the Geth Fleet. That magically reverses the second Sovereign is gone.

 

Plot related issues exist in all version of the game. To complain about one and not the others is mildly hypocritical.

[BloodyMares]

Plot related issues exist in all version of the game. To complain about one and not the others is mildly hypocritical.

Yet you do this very thing. You want to defend your point with such passion that you don't even want to acknowledge my arguments. Not even one. You try so hard to nitpick ME1 to justify your opinion and yet you don't want to admit that ME2 and 3 had much more problems with the story. Mp3-evidence. Stupid? Yes. Important? Not really. Leaving the Normandy with your whole squad nobody knows where without sound reasons. Stupid? Very. Important? Hell yes, the entire crew gets abducted. The ambassador grounds the Normandy? Well, we don't really know how much power the ambassadors have so it may not be stupid. But betraying the Council and working with Cerberus to stage a coup? That's very stupid, illogical and completely out of character. Udina was seen to be a pro-human but not to the extent of working with a terrorist organization. You see what I mean? It's not about plot-holes. It's about poor writing. Drama first, not details first.

[Natureguy85]

ME2 did do world building. Working off what was already established on ME1 it showed what life was like in the galaxy out side of Council space. In the largely lawless region of the Traverse or what ever that area was called.

 

How's that? We didn't really get to see what life was like on Horizon. The most you could say is Omega, which is a slum version of the Citadel. There is a bit of value there for sure.

 

 

 

 

And what choices were in ME1 that were so important in relation to plot? Kill or not kill the Rachni Queen? Kill the council or don't? Which which one of 2 crew members will die?  Such choices much wow. Their effects on the plot is non existent in the game. No matter what you pick all that happens at best is a slight alternating of dialogue in the game.  Those choices had no effect on the plot for that game. Do all the side quests or just to the main quests. Save the queen or don't. You still get grounded by Council/Alliance. You still find the Conduit on Ilos. Sovereign still attacks the Citadel. And you still need to beat his puppet to get him to be killed.  You can still prefer ME1 over 2 or 3 but don't make stuff up about choices and their impact on the plot. ME2 and 3 have the same if not more impact on story from the choices you make in game.  Up to and including the loss of the Crew of the Normandy, character deaths at the end even going as far as for Shepard the main character to die. Preventing any importing data to ME3 if you really messed up.

 

You're right that the choices don't affect the plot in ME1, but they happen on the plot. The only thing of any value that happens on the plot of ME2 is finding Legion, as using him is required for Geth/Quarian peace in ME3. Everything else is optional.

 

 

 

Fairly certain that during any mission everyone goes with Shepard but breaks into different teams with Shepard taking point. Even withing the confines of this game 3 people being able to slaughter their way though enemies that kill entire battalions is to unrealistic.  And unless you got a Bioware Dev or some in game codex that states only 3 people ever leave the ship at one time. This is official head cannon to me. Thus it makes sense. Trying to control even a 6 person team without this being a RTS game would be impossible. Not to mention issues with system handling it. Same reason why the interior shots of the Normandy don't always match up to the over all size it would actually be. AKA the 2 second walk from Galaxy map to Joker is the same length in both games. Even though the SR-2 is a much larger ship.

 

That would have been cool if they'd done that. They could make up something for the rest of the ground team to do and you'd hear them over the radio.

 

 

 

As for dialogue it stays about the same quality across all 3 games.  You want to talk about stupid choices in game for plot reasons. How about how the Council takes an mp3 recording that is claimed to have come from a Geth unit. Presented by the Galaxy's version of gypsies over what 3 eye witness humans statements. Or lets not forget the time an Ambassador managed to ground not only a Council Specter. But also a special Ops N7 solider. I might not be completely up to date on how military functions but I'm fairly certain that Ambassadors don't have that kind of authority to do that. Not unless they were authorized by the Alliance Military leaders to do so. Oh and lets also not forget that time like 6 Salarians and 1 Human manage to distract the majority of people at Saren's secret base. Posing a threat to draw all the attention towards them some how. All happening for plot related reasons even though they make no sense.

 

Actually, it's only one eye witness, which is the dock worker hiding behind the crates. Shepard and company never saw Saren. However, all we're ignoring about the MP3 is the possibility of faking it. It's clearly Saren's voice referencing Eden Prime.

As for Udina grounding the Normandy, you're right; you have no idea what authority he has or with whom he communicates. Udina clearly had a hand in getting Shepard the Normandy in the first place. As for Shepard being a Specter, as far as the Council is concerned, his mission regarding Saren is over.

 

As for Virmire, Kirrahee's team is implied to be larger than what we see. But yes, an attack would be a distraction. Why is this hard to believe?

 

 

 

There are plot holes that exist. The Citadel only works as a trap because of the assumption that species are to stupid to explore it. What was it 5,000 years since the Asari and Salarians discovered it and still no one explored it beyond surface level? Do you realize how out of character that is for the Salarians? How absolutely stupid the collective races of the galaxy would have to be to utilize a space station without understanding it? Then to make it the Galactic UN location?  Seriously do you think any nation on this planet would find a random sub floating in the water and then right away put the leader of their country in it without first taking it completely apart and learning everything about it before even vaugly considering what to do with it?  Lets talk about Rachni were suddenly a freshly born female queen can spontaneously start to give birth after being frozen in space for thousands of years. WTF is the point of male Rachni if queens who are the only ones that lay eggs can spontaneously get pregnant. Because some how their dad can knock them up even in unhatched egg form.

 

It is out of character for the Salarians, but they weren't the first to find it. Not everything in fiction must conform to the real world perfectly, especially when those differences are set up from the start. This is why ME1 was so good and why ME2 and ME3 have problems. ME1 put in the world building work at the start to set up the world and the rules of it. What matters is internal consistency; that the story world adheres to it's own rules, not necessarily the rules of the real world. In the Metro games, the Rangers set up in an old bunker they haven't fully explored. It's simply too good of a strategic position to pass up.

As for the Rachni, I figured that was artificial. But maybe they don't need males to reproduce. Aliens can be as weird as the writer wants.

 

 

Or lets get to Vigil who contradicts itself in his own statements. How can communication be crippled across the empire yet it can track with precision the Reaper movements? How could it have a program to disable a Reaper's direct interface with Citadel yet not know the fate of the Researchers? Which would require direct contact with them to even get that program to exist. How would they even send it to Vigil if all communication relays were destroyed?  How come even though the entire Citadel Fleet and all Council Races were altered about Saren's attempted attack is only the 5th Fleet the only one responding to the attack? It isn't like Sovereign  or Saren is jamming communications other wise Joker would have never been able to contact Shepard in the first place.  How could the Geth fleet that was destroying the Citadel Fleet suddenly be routed by that same fleet taking a beating if you choose not to save the Council? The only reason they are even in danger is because the Citadel Fleet is struggling against the Geth Fleet. That magically reverses the second Sovereign is gone.

 

Plot related issues exist in all version of the game. To complain about one and not the others is mildly hypocritical.

 

Blah blah blah, yeah you don't like Vigil except when you want to use something he says to make a point. We've been over that.

 

Mobilizing fleets takes time. They are also doing things or guarding certain areas. The 5th fleet was able to respond. That's all there is to it.

The choice is only regarding the Destiny Ascension. It doesn't have anything to do with how the rest of the Citadel fleet fares in the total battle. That the Geth fleet are able to take out their most powerful ship doesn't mean they win the fight. They could also continue fighting after Sovereign is destroyed. Whatever works in your head.

 

You're absolutely right that each game has questions you can ask or things you can laugh at in the plot. However, not all plot holes or plot issues are created equal, so there is no hypocrisy.

[gothpunkboy89]

Yet you do this very thing. You want to defend your point with such passion that you don't even want to acknowledge my arguments. Not even one. You try so hard to nitpick ME1 to justify your opinion and yet you don't want to admit that ME2 and 3 had much more problems with the story. Mp3-evidence. Stupid? Yes. Important? Not really. Leaving the Normandy with your whole squad nobody knows where without sound reasons. Stupid? Very. Important? Hell yes, the entire crew gets abducted. The ambassador grounds the Normandy? Well, we don't really know how much power the ambassadors have so it may not be stupid. But betraying the Council and working with Cerberus to stage a coup? That's very stupid, illogical and completely out of character. Udina was seen to be a pro-human but not to the extent of working with a terrorist organization. You see what I mean? It's not about plot-holes. It's about poor writing. Drama first, not details first.

 

No I acknowledged your argument then I pointing out things you seem to want to skip over. All games had about equal plot issues if you examine them close enough. To complain about ME2 and 3 and to claim ME1 was better is ignoring those flaws so hard.

 

The Mp3 evidence is super important that is the very thing that allows the story to continue. Without that evidence Saren is never black listed by Council. Without that evidence Shepard is never made a Specter. Without that Mp3 the entire plot can not advance. I would call that important.

 

Why would you assemble a large task force of people and keep all but 2 sitting on a ship? What was it on Noveria 6 security officers were having trouble fending off a couple of Rachni. Yet Shepard and 2 other people are able to slaughter their way though Saren's entire ground force to reach the Council Chambers?  Up to but not limited to multiple Geth Primes the most powerful Geth ground unit and multiple Krogans who are notoriously hard to kill without some serious fire power. Was able to wade though all those soldiers without any support and suffered no casualties even though that set up of just Geth were able to wipe out all military forces on Eden Prime. At least in relegation to the area around the beacon. Which I'm sure was already increased due to them finding the Beacon in the first place to prevent pirates from getting their hands on it.  Everyone leaving on a mission and Shepard picking his specific squad and the rest provide cover support is the only thing that makes any logical sense. 

 

Added the tracking was hidden in the IFF program so even EDI didn't realize it till it was to late. Yes the set up of Shep taking everyone with him on an unnamed mission makes sense. It is unnamed because the players wouldn't be controlling Shepard for that mission.  This advances the plot but makes more sense then the Mp3 over eye witnesses in ME1.

 

Ambassadors do not have that kind of power it would be idiotic for someone not in the military to be given that kind of power to use at will. Hell even the President of the USA who is technically the Commander in Chief  of all the military can't pull that **** at random. Added it makes no sense to ground him anyways. SR-1 is not a war ship it is a prototype stealth ship so the Normandy wouldn't be any use in combat anyways. Not to mention he is a Specter to boot the right arm/secret police of the Council. Who just lead a team into the heart of Saren's operations. So when he claims there is something else going on and no one believes him it makes no sense.  This is another point that is extremely stupid and the entire story hinges on it.  Because if Shep wasn't busy dealing with Udina being a massive gaping anus Shepard could have gotten to Ilos first. Found Vigil and showed the Council what the Conduit is and prevented Saren/Sovereign from being able to do anything that happens at the end of the game.

 

Seriously without Udina's random d baggery that makes no sense what so ever Saren would have passed though the Conduit and been met with every C sec, Turian Military, Asari Huntress, Human Military, Salarian STG, and maybe a few assorted Krogan told about a big fight possibly happening waiting with a gun pointed at him.

 

Udina's actions in ME3 do make sense in context of his character. He has always been humans first other second but he is smart enough to know to play ball rather then stubbornly insist out loud. All of ME1 he was all about the advancement of Humanity in the galactic community. That **** eating grin he has when he loudly mentions that the Council with his help of course will now be dealing with Saren really says it all. Then you have TIM who is a master manipulator. Seriously you don't build a massive multi billion dollar terrorist organization by being an idiot.  Combine this with the galaxy basically going yea I know you are really hurting but I'm going to look out for myself now so good luck. His actions make sense.

 

Humans take the inital brunt of the attack and are in desperate need of credits to fun the war effort. TIM strolls in to offer his support financially. Udina takes it because he has no other choice. TIM starts up about how unfair it is that the Council abandons humanity the moment they feel threatened. How the entire reason the Reapers are a threat is because they ignored Shepard's and indeed humanities warning about them.  How the Council is so divided by fear they aren't acting effectivly. That if someone were to take control of the Council with 1 person as the leader they could direct the entire Council Fleets and remove the Reaper threat.

 

Basically Emperor Palpating stuff.

[BloodyMares]

Added the tracking was hidden in the IFF program so even EDI didn't realize it till it was to late. Yes the set up of Shep taking everyone with him on an unnamed mission makes sense. It is unnamed because the players wouldn't be controlling Shepard for that mission.  This advances the plot but makes more sense then the Mp3 over eye witnesses in ME1.

 

Ambassadors do not have that kind of power it would be idiotic for someone not in the military to be given that kind of power to use at will. Hell even the President of the USA who is technically the Commander in Chief  of all the military can't pull that **** at random. Added it makes no sense to ground him anyways. SR-1 is not a war ship it is a prototype stealth ship so the Normandy wouldn't be any use in combat anyways. Not to mention he is a Specter to boot the right arm/secret police of the Council. Who just lead a team into the heart of Saren's operations. So when he claims there is something else going on and no one believes him it makes no sense.  This is another point that is extremely stupid and the entire story hinges on it.  Because if Shep wasn't busy dealing with Udina being a massive gaping anus Shepard could have gotten to Ilos first. Found Vigil and showed the Council what the Conduit is and prevented Saren/Sovereign from being able to do anything that happens at the end of the game.

 

Udina's actions in ME3 do make sense in context of his character. He has always been humans first other second but he is smart enough to know to play ball rather then stubbornly insist out loud. All of ME1 he was all about the advancement of Humanity in the galactic community. That **** eating grin he has when he loudly mentions that the Council with his help of course will now be dealing with Saren really says it all. Then you have TIM who is a master manipulator. Seriously you don't build a massive multi billion dollar terrorist organization by being an idiot.  Combine this with the galaxy basically going yea I know you are really hurting but I'm going to look out for myself now so good luck. His actions make sense.

 

Humans take the inital brunt of the attack and are in desperate need of credits to fun the war effort. TIM strolls in to offer his support financially. Udina takes it because he has no other choice. TIM starts up about how unfair it is that the Council abandons humanity the moment they feel threatened. How the entire reason the Reapers are a threat is because they ignored Shepard's and indeed humanities warning about them.  How the Council is so divided by fear they aren't acting effectivly. That if someone were to take control of the Council with 1 person as the leader they could direct the entire Council Fleets and remove the Reaper threat.

I may be stupid but how does Shepard leaving the Normandy for an unnamed mission without any explanation to us, the player, that this mission requires the whole squad makes more sense than the sound proof? In the whole game, there was never a need of assembling the whole squad. 3-person squad does every job. But if there is really a mission that important that requires 12 people then the game should've told us about it. What was the goal of this mission, why is it so hard? Those questions weren't answered. And if the game fails to explain why does your protagonist makes things you don't see a reason for really speaks about poor writing and breaks the immersion.
In defense of the sound proof I'll say that we don't really know if it's possible to emulate other people's voice in the game world. We judge it by the logic of our universe and expectation of the future for our universe. Mass Effect is a sci-fi. If they establish that it's impossible to falsify the sound recording of other people talking then we can't complain about this evidence being 'irrefutable' however stupid that might be.

You make the same mistake with judging the ambassador's power. You use the real world knowledge to guess that ambassadors shouldn't have such power. Yet it is stated in-universe that he has such a power. He was able to remove Anderson from investigating Saren and he successfully made him to give up his position of the ship captain. Compared to that, grounding the Normandy to avoid a potential of starting a war with the Terminus Systems isn't really a big deal.

And apparently you can build this huge organization such as Cerberus by being an idiot because TIM didn't really strike me as a person whose actions are carefully thought through and make at least a little bit of sense. Instead of assassinating a target without drawing attention he uses the brute force. Instead of carefully managing his qualified personnel he gets rid of them like there are tons of skilled scientists and engineers who are willing to work for terrorists. Instead of trying to achieve his goal (advance humanity) his every action ends up hurting humanity more than advancing it. If I was TIM I would really start to think about disbanding the Cerberus and stopping every activity if in the long run it causes so much trouble and every experiment ends up failed with many skilled workers being killed in the process.

And the last part...Was that really stated in the game or did you make it up? Because I don't remember any explanation of Udina helping Cerberus so it would make a little bit of sense. He may be a pro-human, but he is still a politician first. And I don't see how politicians would agree to risk their career (or life) and work with the infamous terrorist organization.

[MrFob]

Just a few inserts on a couple of points that I don't think have been mentioned (or maybe I missed them in which case I'm sorry):

 

The audio recording: When we get to that council meeting, it has already started. I always assumed that the council had this recording even before the official session and had it analyzed thoroughly and dismissed the possibility that it's a fake beforehand. This is never mentioned though, so of course, it's head canon (and one can argue that the timing is a bit strange, so make of it what you will).

 

The Normandy under lockdown from Udina: There are three aspects to this which - in combination - make this plausible to me:

1. The Normandy is an Alliance vessel on loan to the council for the specific by of the human Spectre (Shepard). But it is still an Alliance vessel and if they decide to retract the loan, that's their prerogative, they still have jurisdiction over their ship.

2. Maybe if the Alliance made use of the prerogative established in point 1 over the council's head, it would be a diplomatic incident and the council might even be able to overrule (at least as long as the Normandy is on the Citadel) but the council and Udina are united in their wish to take Shep out of the picture so there is no issue there.

3. It is established that the Normandy is docking at an Alliance dock when visiting the Citadel. That is further cause for Udina having jurisdiction, not only over the ship but also the dock and thus, he is in control over the lockdown.

 

The Rachni: If you visit the hot labs on Novaria and keep taking to the team leader you can find there (Russian guy, forgot his name), you can ask him exactly that question how the Rachni  queen could get offspring without a male and he explains it. Also, there re multiple insect species on earth which use a very similar method of reproduction and colony propagation. Nothing strange or even particularly alien about that.

[TheN7Penguin]

Destroy is the only logical option.

 

Kill the Krogan.

 

Kill the Geth.

 

Kill the Reapers.

 

The galaxy will be peaceful.

 

Because renegade is awesome.

[themikefest]

The audio file that Tali has could've been taken out of the game with the result still leading to Saren being stripped of his status as a spectre and Shepard becoming a spectre.

 

When Udina mentions reports of geth in the Feros system before losing contact with the colony, Shepard is sent to investigate. The mission plays out the same. The option to kill Shiala isn't an option anymore. She is brought back to tell the council what she told Shepard. From that point on, the game is the same.

[gothpunkboy89]

I may be stupid but how does Shepard leaving the Normandy for an unnamed mission without any explanation to us, the player, that this mission requires the whole squad makes more sense than the sound proof? In the whole game, there was never a need of assembling the whole squad. 3-person squad does every job. But if there is really a mission that important that requires 12 people then the game should've told us about it. What was the goal of this mission, why is it so hard? Those questions weren't answered. And if the game fails to explain why does your protagonist makes things you don't see a reason for really speaks about poor writing and breaks the immersion.
In defense of the sound proof I'll say that we don't really know if it's possible to emulate other people's voice in the game world. We judge it by the logic of our universe and expectation of the future for our universe. Mass Effect is a sci-fi. If they establish that it's impossible to falsify the sound recording of other people talking then we can't complain about this evidence being 'irrefutable' however stupid that might be.

You make the same mistake with judging the ambassador's power. You use the real world knowledge to guess that ambassadors shouldn't have such power. Yet it is stated in-universe that he has such a power. He was able to remove Anderson from investigating Saren and he successfully made him to give up his position of the ship captain. Compared to that, grounding the Normandy to avoid a potential of starting a war with the Terminus Systems isn't really a big deal.

And apparently you can build this huge organization such as Cerberus by being an idiot because TIM didn't really strike me as a person whose actions are carefully thought through and make at least a little bit of sense. Instead of assassinating a target without drawing attention he uses the brute force. Instead of carefully managing his qualified personnel he gets rid of them like there are tons of skilled scientists and engineers who are willing to work for terrorists. Instead of trying to achieve his goal (advance humanity) his every action ends up hurting humanity more than advancing it. If I was TIM I would really start to think about disbanding the Cerberus and stopping every activity if in the long run it causes so much trouble and every experiment ends with up failed with many skilled workers being killed in the process.

And the last part...Was that really stated in the game or did you make it up? Because I don't remember any explanation of Udina helping Cerberus so it would make a little bit of sense. He may be a pro-human, but he is still a politician first. And I don't see how politicians would agree to risk their career (or life) and work with the infamous terrorist organization.

 

Game never uses more then 3 people for game play/hard ware reasons. Seriously just about every action game support character's actions are either specific scripted events or they exist simply as cannon fodder.  Running blindly towards the enemy and being mowed down by the dozens. Halo is full of that stuff as only Master Chief or later the Arbiter actually matter so they are the only characters that don't get mowed down and who's AI is a bit smarter then the marines which get mowed down on any mission they join you on.  The mission they leave for isn't important in the slightest because the point is just to show them leaving. Since you don't actually activitly participate in any mission during the abduction of the crew outside of controlling Joker they don't need to explain the mission. It doesn't matter if they are taking down another merc base or attacking a pirate group that has info on the collectors.

 

And investigation is vastly different then completely grounding a Special Ops Soldier. And unless you forgot Anderson agreed on both counts to step back from the investigation and give up command of the Normandy. Due to his previous involvement with Saren only hurting their case and the fact that Shepard would need the ship more then him. In fact there is an Admiral you can talk to during the events of ME1 were he directly expresses how upset he is that the Alliance gave the ship to the Council to be used. Being perfectly ok with Shepard being thrown to them. The Normandy wouldn't start a war with the Terminus Systems as Specters have already operated in that area before. And the fact the Normandy has been operating in that area already. All Udina and the Council needed to say was no we won't send any fleets to assist you. But if you feel it necessary you can go by yourself.  This was already the logic they were using to let Shepard the brand new Specter hunt down Saren even though there would have been plenty of other more experienced ones that could have done it.

 

They Council out right admits earlier in the game that Saren is a master manipulator as how they rationalize his ability to control the Geth.  Shepard and the STG that just attacked his secret base (assuming you saved them) claims that master manipulator might be up to something and Udina responds with being a ****** for no reason makes no sense.  And that isn't even getting into Shepard's logic of screaming about the Reapers over and over again even though it is obvious the Council and Udina don't believe it. All he had to do was state that Saren found/created a Prothean/Geth super weapon. Hidden on the previously undiscovered planet Ilos and that he wants to investigate and sabotage that weapon before Saren attacks. Which at that point it would make even less sense for him to be grounded by anyone.

 

Actually TIM is pretty damn smart all things considered. It is only near the end of ME3 doesn't he truly start to drop the ball and by then it is fairly heavily hinted and later confirmed that he is indoctrinated. The actions of Cerberus were certainly morally questionable but what they were attempting to do if you strip morality out of the question would have advanced humanity. The ability to create super biotic warriors (Jack)  or manipulate the Geth (David) into following his orders would have given humanity a massive leg up to other races. Hell even his dabbling in Reaper modification of troops into fearless super solders would have given humanity a massive edge in combat.

 

The last part was in game be it in bits and pieces. Early in the game the Council makes it very clear they will not lend any support to Earth or it's fleets in attempting to retake their home world. They also do not support the Crucible in any way shape or form. He makes a direct statement that Earth's credit is reduced to an IOU. That he will squeeze every drop of money, resources and troops out of the Alliance colonies.  Later the entire reason the Salarian Councillor is in the Executor's office is because he has details involving Udina's suspicious actions.  Udina wasn't in charge of the attempted coup. Kai Lang was and it was hence why when Lang claimed his mission was a failure the coup attempt was abandoned and the Cerberus soldiers started fleeing escaping down Keeper tunnels.

 

Udina in desperation made a deal with the devil in hopes of helping humanity when no other race would help them. The devil how ever had different plans and acted on them leaving Udina to stand there holding the bag and paid for it with his life.

[gothpunkboy89]

Just a few inserts on a couple of points that I don't think have been mentioned (or maybe I missed them in which case I'm sorry):

 

The audio recording: When we get to that council meeting, it has already started. I always assumed that the council had this recording even before the official session and had it analyzed thoroughly and dismissed the possibility that it's a fake beforehand. This is never mentioned though, so of course, it's head canon (and one can argue that the timing is a bit strange, so make of it what you will).

 

The Normandy under lockdown from Udina: There are three aspects to this which - in combination - make this plausible to me:

1. The Normandy is an Alliance vessel on loan to the council for the specific by of the human Spectre (Shepard). But it is still an Alliance vessel and if they decide to retract the loan, that's their prerogative, they still have jurisdiction over their ship.

2. Maybe if the Alliance made use of the prerogative established in point 1 over the council's head, it would be a diplomatic incident and the council might even be able to overrule (at least as long as the Normandy is on the Citadel) but the council and Udina are united in their wish to take Shep out of the picture so there is no issue there.

3. It is established that the Normandy is docking at an Alliance dock when visiting the Citadel. That is further cause for Udina having jurisdiction, not only over the ship but also the dock and thus, he is in control over the lockdown.

 

The Rachni: If you visit the hot labs on Novaria and keep taking to the team leader you can find there (Russian guy, forgot his name), you can ask him exactly that question how the Rachni  queen could get offspring without a male and he explains it. Also, there re multiple insect species on earth which use a very similar method of reproduction and colony propagation. Nothing strange or even particularly alien about that.

 

Pure audio recordings aren't always accepted in today's courts because of how easy they are to fake.

 

1. The Alliance still officially gave Shepard command of the SR-1. Which means Udina would need clearance from someone sufficiently high up on the Alliance Military to be allowed to issue lock downs like that on Alliance Military Crafts. Even the Council members can not order fleet movements from their respective races out side of the ships that make up the Citadel Fleet.  Hence why in ME3 after the Turian Councilor's hint Shepard attempts to get a Primarch on his side to side step the Council to get support. Why the Council only finally stepped in during the First Contact War only when both Humans and Turians were getting ready for full scale war. And even then it isn't like the Council just snapped it's fingers and the Turian's backed down.

 

2. Been a while but didn't seem like the Council wanted Shepard out of the picture. They just didn't agree about sending a fleet to Ilos. They would have lost nothing by letting Shepard go alone to Ilos to investigate. In fact considering the rate at which they are wrong about Shepard at that point it makes no sense why they would be so hard pressed against letting Shepard go alone to Ilos. It isn't like the Normandy is an important ship in the fleet.

 

3. Shepard is a Specter capable of accessing data and areas normally off limits to everyone. Noveria is a key point there as it is a private corporation. Not only was Shepard allows to snoop around but he was allowed to walk in fully armed and access all but the most sensitive data from the VI on Peak 43.  Alliance dock or not his specter status should have overrode Udina's lock down order.

 

What other insect species is capable of surviving in the vacuum of space for  a couple thousand years. And are capable of giving birth right away because their father's genetic imprint is left on them? I would like to know these insect species.

[BloodyMares]

I give up. I can't have a discussion when an opponent dismisses facts and instead uses head-canon to back up his arguments. No wonder we've got such bullshit as 'The Catalyst'.

[Ieldra]

I give up. I can't have a discussion when an opponent dismisses facts and instead uses head-cannon to back up his arguments. No wonder we've got such bullshit as 'The Catalyst'.

While I agree with you about how this debate went, the concept of the Catalyst isn't a bad one. As implemented, it just didn't fit with the story that came before. The writers wanted to shove certain themes into our faces and used this idea of a super-powered AI to do it, rather than letting the story run its course more naturally. More naturally, that *might* have included similar options to the ones we got, but the decison should've been made from a position of strength and knowledge, not from one where the antagonist has all the cards and we had to trust it blindly. Given the presentation of the Reapers throughout the trilogy, we needed a moral victory and primary agency in the ending - neither of which we got. For things to proceed as they did in ME3, a different kind of presentation would've been needed.

[dorktainian]

While I agree with you about how this debate went, the concept of the Catalyst isn't a bad one. As implemented, it just didn't fit with the story that came before. The writers wanted to shove certain themes into our faces and used this idea of a super-powered AI to do it, rather than letting the story run its course more naturally. More naturally, that *might* have included similar options to the ones we got, but the decison should've been made from a position of strength and knowledge, not from one where the antagonist has all the cards and we had to trust it blindly. Given the presentation of the Reapers throughout the trilogy, we needed a moral victory and primary agency in the ending - neither of which we got. For things to proceed as they did in ME3, a different kind of presentation would've been needed.

grrr.... Shepard is the Catalyst.  

[gothpunkboy89]

I give up. I can't have a discussion when an opponent dismisses facts and instead uses head-cannon to back up his arguments. No wonder we've got such bullshit as 'The Catalyst'.

 What facts exactly were dismissed? Because I seem to remember you making the complaint that ME1 lacked the plot whole/story issues ME2 and 3 have. When it is just as guilty of it.

 

 

While I agree with you about how this debate went, the concept of the Catalyst isn't a bad one. As implemented, it just didn't fit with the story that came before. The writers wanted to shove certain themes into our faces and used this idea of a super-powered AI to do it, rather than letting the story run its course more naturally. More naturally, that *might* have included similar options to the ones we got, but the decison should've been made from a position of strength and knowledge, not from one where the antagonist has all the cards and we had to trust it blindly. Given the presentation of the Reapers throughout the trilogy, we needed a moral victory and primary agency in the ending - neither of which we got. For things to proceed as they did in ME3, a different kind of presentation would've been needed.

 

One of the great thing about this trilogy is they keep the fact we are hopelessly out matched across all the trilogy. We have moments of victory that are hard brought but they are only small things in the over all conflict. It is such an over used and boring cliche to have the once powerless protagonist suddenly able to match if not exceed the power of the antagonist forces. That is why a few moments that people complain about I love so much. The beam run moment is one of them that I've seen a few forum users complain about. I love it because it just enforces how hopeless the struggle is.

 

If you get the best fleet together possibly usually with Paragon play though it start off looking like we are able to hold our own. As the level progresses you see the Reaper forces slowly but surely wiping everything out. By the time you reach the command base you can hear NPC talk about how half of the hammer drop ships were destroyed before they arrived causing the massive lose of personnel and equipment. On the way just about every NPC you run into gets killed, you have to fight wave after wave of unending Reaper troops and you only just manage to destroy the AA Reaper. And just when they think after a hard won fight they have a small glimmer of hope during the run to the beam BAM Reapers are there and stopping you routing the entire force killing many and forcing the rest to retreat.

 

It plays out almost like a horror story or some bad dream and that is what makes it great. The fact you are met with the Catalyst while you lay there broken and dying, the fleets being destroyed and all hope being lost is the single greatest part of this story. Because it really bring home how powerful, how threatening the Reapers really are. And it really gives justice to them rather them and the threat they pose and why they have been able to repeat this cycle an untold amount of times.

 

To approach the ending with any position of power or knowledge would undo everything they have done so far to set the Reapers up as an unstoppable forced in the galaxy.  The ending options you are presented with are all based on your moral choice. There is no right or wrong choice just what you think is morally correct. Which again despite how many like to complain about the ending giving multiple choice and no one answer is the correct one is the best way to end this game.

[Iakus]

 

One of the great thing about this trilogy is they keep the fact we are hopelessly out matched across all the trilogy. We have moments of victory that are hard brought but they are only small things in the over all conflict. It is such an over used and boring cliche to have the once powerless protagonist suddenly able to match if not exceed the power of the antagonist forces. That is why a few moments that people complain about I love so much. The beam run moment is one of them that I've seen a few forum users complain about. I love it because it just enforces how hopeless the struggle is.

 

If you get the best fleet together possibly usually with Paragon play though it start off looking like we are able to hold our own. As the level progresses you see the Reaper forces slowly but surely wiping everything out. By the time you reach the command base you can hear NPC talk about how half of the hammer drop ships were destroyed before they arrived causing the massive lose of personnel and equipment. On the way just about every NPC you run into gets killed, you have to fight wave after wave of unending Reaper troops and you only just manage to destroy the AA Reaper. And just when they think after a hard won fight they have a small glimmer of hope during the run to the beam BAM Reapers are there and stopping you routing the entire force killing many and forcing the rest to retreat.

 

It plays out almost like a horror story or some bad dream and that is what makes it great. The fact you are met with the Catalyst while you lay there broken and dying, the fleets being destroyed and all hope being lost is the single greatest part of this story. Because it really bring home how powerful, how threatening the Reapers really are. And it really gives justice to them rather them and the threat they pose and why they have been able to repeat this cycle an untold amount of times.

 

To approach the ending with any position of power or knowledge would undo everything they have done so far to set the Reapers up as an unstoppable forced in the galaxy.  The ending options you are presented with are all based on your moral choice. There is no right or wrong choice just what you think is morally correct. Which again despite how many like to complain about the ending giving multiple choice and no one answer is the correct one is the best way to end this game.

In other words, it plays like a railroaded RPG where nothing you do matters.

[Dantriges]

The Normandy under lockdown from Udina: There are three aspects to this which - in combination - make this plausible to me:
1. The Normandy is an Alliance vessel on loan to the council for the specific by of the human Spectre (Shepard). But it is still an Alliance vessel and if they decide to retract the loan, that's their prerogative, they still have jurisdiction over their ship.
2. Maybe if the Alliance made use of the prerogative established in point 1 over the council's head, it would be a diplomatic incident and the council might even be able to overrule (at least as long as the Normandy is on the Citadel) but the council and Udina are united in their wish to take Shep out of the picture so there is no issue there.
3. It is established that the Normandy is docking at an Alliance dock when visiting the Citadel. That is further cause for Udina having jurisdiction, not only over the ship but also the dock and thus, he is in control over the lockdown.

Yeah, I don´t see the big problem here. Udina has friends in high places and there is probably a lot of political wheeling and dealing going on behind the scenes. I don´t find it unbelievable that the loan of a ship to the council is a political issue. So Udina either had the capability to cancel the loan/deny you access and sent the admiral in the normal chain of command a memo or he collaborated with him to ground you. So Udina told/asked the military to ground the ship or he withdrew the political support so Mikhailovich could do it. That would be Mikhailovich and it´s likely either way. We just didn´t get the proper paperwork.

[gothpunkboy89]

In other words, it plays like a railroaded RPG where nothing you do matters.

 

No it plays like a game that sets up an near unbeatable bad guy that actually keeps that logic rather then randomly handicapping them or duce ex machina a magical ancient weapon that it alone can defeat them. They get close with Crucible but ultimately it fails on it's own. 

[themikefest]

The beam run. hahahahahahahahaha. More like everyone turning into suicide runners with a big target on their chest. Then the extended cut introduces the what-the-crap evac scene. hahahahahahaha. All that to explain how the 2 squadmates get back on the Normandy.

[gothpunkboy89]

The beam run. hahahahahahahahaha. More like everyone turning into suicide runners with a big target on their chest. Then the extended cut introduces the what-the-crap evac scene. hahahahahahaha. All that to explain how the 2 squadmates get back on the Normandy.

 

I've seen the logic you have tried to use to complain about beam run. It is unique to say it nicely. Really love your point about some how some assault rifle fire would be able to distract Harbinger. Because we all know Reapers have the attention span of a kitten and anything moving instantly makes them forget about everything else.

[themikefest]

I've seen the logic you have tried to use to complain about beam run. It is unique to say it nicely. Really love your point about some how some assault rifle fire would be able to distract Harbinger. Because we all know Reapers have the attention span of a kitten and anything moving instantly makes them forget about everything else.

I like to hear your explanation why Harbinger didn't fire at the Normandy? Since you like the beam run, does that mean you would make no effort to get to cover, if possible, after seeing others being killed, if you were running to the beam? Back to the question I've asked on the other thread. Quote a post where I said some assault rifle would distract Harbinger?

 

Reapers have the attention span of a kitten? I will give a like to the one who posts an image of a reaper with whiskers.