2409 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

I never really got the sense that the Reapers were this unstoppable thing in any of the games:

 

ME1 ends with the one Reaper we meet getting blown up, a lot of people died but it did set a precedent that they could be overcome through the themes of the game.

 

I don't see how you can call the Reapers anyway unbeatable in ME2. Their proxies, the Collectors, come off like the villains in a Chuck Norris movie -- nonsensical and there to be mowed through. ME2 is so much about empowering the player straight from the very first scene that nothing comes off as too large an obstacle for bigdamnhero Shepard and the magnificent 12 to shoot their way through. Not to mention that the Reaper that does show up is unintentionally comedic looking.

 

ME3 has too many tone shifts. There are great moments like the ruin of ships over Earth and the shot of half of Palaven on fire. Unfortunately, these scenes are too near the beginning. Half the rest of the game is spent mowing through Cobra Command Cerberus, and more than half the game over indulges in TPS bravado. Like Shepard and Anderson arguing on Earth about staying when there's a Reaper just out of scene, fighting Reapers on foot and winning, Space Ninjas, etc; these moments undercut the Reapers being unstoppable. It's also a problem that Cerberus steals so much of the limelight.

 

There's also some awkwardness that comes from the game's mechanics. There's a bar that literally measures something called 'Effective Military Strength' that largely only goes up. The campaign pushes the multiplayer where you will slay thousands of Reapers -- you know, it really diminishes an enemy in a video game when they only engage the player with easily disposable mooks. Not to mention that screen you get when you open the game that says the Reapers are being pushed back.

 

Ultimately, the game feels like it's building up to the end of that Take Back Earth trailer. Where everyone hops into their tanks to punch the Reapers in the face. Priority: Earth isn't that, but I can't say it feels desperate either. The mission is a slog, where Shepard just walks through a linear series of corridors killing waves of enemies, just like the rest of the game, only now there's slightly more enemies. I think the mission is missing context. For most of it we hardly see any one else, what's happening to them, how close we are to the Conduit, etc. When something comes over the radio about 80% casualties it feels like 80% of ten people. There's just nothing visceral about it. I think it's why I like the beam run so much (despite the fact that it's an easily broken facade). It actually feels desperate -- there's just something about suicidal charges. But that impact isn't from the writing, it's just the way the literal set piece is laid out: the music, the impact of Harbinger's beams shaking the ground, etc.

[Iakus]

No it plays like a game that sets up an near unbeatable bad guy that actually keeps that logic rather then randomly handicapping them or duce ex machina a magical ancient weapon that it alone can defeat them. They get close with Crucible but ultimately it fails on it's own. 

No, the unbeatable bad guy was handicapped by completely incompetent behavior.  

 

If the Reapers were at all smart, they alliance never would have gotten close to building the Crucible. May never have found the plans to begin with.  But instead the supremely overwhelmingly powerful enemy which could squash us with ease was just stupid enough that we had a hope that we could actually beat them.  And Mac watched us dance to his tune before pulling that hope away. 

[StarcloudSWG]

I like to hear your explanation why Harbinger didn't fire at the Normandy?

 

I'm not him, but I do have an explanation for this.

 

The Normandy SR 2 has EDI and the Reaper IFF. Harbinger didn't shoot at the Normandy because he didn't comprehend what he was "seeing". It was an anomaly and it wasn't shooting at him, therefore it was just something to be wary of but it wasn't a threat. Remember, all of a Reaper's sensory devices are electronic. They can be fooled/spoofed.

[Iakus]

I'm not him, but I do have an explanation for this.

 

The Normandy SR 2 has EDI and the Reaper IFF. Harbinger didn't shoot at the Normandy because he didn't comprehend what he was "seeing". It was an anomaly and it wasn't shooting at him, therefore it was just something to be wary of but it wasn't a threat. Remember, all of a Reaper's sensory devices are electronic. They can be fooled/spoofed.

 

The Collector Cruiser and Occuli had no trouble targeting the Normandy.  And they're a lot dumber than a Reaper.

[gothpunkboy89]

I like to hear your explanation why Harbinger didn't fire at the Normandy? Since you like the beam run, does that mean you would make no effort to get to cover, if possible, after seeing others being killed, if you were running to the beam? Back to the question I've asked on the other thread. Quote a post where I said some assault rifle would distract Harbinger?

 

Reapers have the attention span of a kitten? I will give a like to the one who posts an image of a reaper with whiskers.

 

1. Why would it attack the Normandy when it is fleeing?

2. Cover wouldn't stop the beams. If it can blow up a Mako in one shot no bit of concrete will stop it.

3. I showed the post to you and you claim you didn't state it. Which is the funniest part of all of this.

[gothpunkboy89]

No, the unbeatable bad guy was handicapped by completely incompetent behavior.  

 

If the Reapers were at all smart, they alliance never would have gotten close to building the Crucible. May never have found the plans to begin with.  But instead the supremely overwhelmingly powerful enemy which could squash us with ease was just stupid enough that we had a hope that we could actually beat them.  And Mac watched us dance to his tune before pulling that hope away. 

 

There are many ways to hide information from even the smartest group. Anyone else find it odd despite the US spending literal billions of dollars on the War on Terror and even before that Osama Bin Laden was some how able to hide since the 70/80's from one of the most powerful and technologically advanced nations in the world? Also explain how groups like the Taliban still exist even though every other day it seems we have killed another one of their leaders? 

 

Explain that to me.

 

Protheans abandoned the research stations early into the harvest any data Reapers would have gotten on it was that it was simply a research base for the human evolution or what ever they called us. Someone coming a long after the fact and uploading the Crucible data to it isn't exactly something that can be 100% predicted.  It was sabotaged the plans destroyed but all it needs is one person to make a copy of it and hide it some were they wouldn't think to look for it to survive.

[themikefest]

1. Why would it attack the Normandy when it is fleeing?

So why did the destroyer fire at the two shuttles that were fleeing at the beginning of the game?

 

How was the Normandy fleeing when it was picking up 2 squadmates? It was fleeing once Shepard starting running to the beam after talking to a squadmate. Not before
 

2. Cover wouldn't stop the beams. If it can blow up a Mako in one shot no bit of concrete will stop it.

So that means no to making any effort to get to cover. Ok.
 

3. I showed the post to you and you claim you didn't state it. Which is the funniest part of all of this.

No. What's funny is you believe that distracting something means damaging it. You still haven't proven anything.

[KaiserShep]

1. Why would it attack the Normandy when it is fleeing?

 

 

C'mon. I actually like the evac scene more than companions teleporting to the Normandy despite being on the ground in the thick of it beforehand, but let's just face the reality of what that scene is: plot spackle. It's just slathered over the nasty hole where the companions flew their phlebotinum-weave magic carpet through to reach the Normandy off-camera. It's just a quick and easy meta-vehicle to put that question to rest, even if it was not, as EDI would put it, a seamless transition. It doesn't attack the Normandy because the Normandy has to land on Nowheria and keep the spirit of the original ending intact. 

[gothpunkboy89]

So why did the destroyer fire at the two shuttles that were fleeing at the beginning of the game?

 

How was the Normandy fleeing when it was picking up 2 squadmates? It was fleeing once Shepard starting running to the beam after talking to a squadmate. Not before
 

So that means no to making any effort to get to cover. Ok.
 

No. What's funny is you believe that distracting something means damaging it. You still haven't proven anything.

 

 

So you are using beginning of the game to justify an action at the very end of it? Ok well at that point Reapers were trying to ground as many ships as possible to prevent the population from fleeing. Thus giving them the maximum amount of people to harvest.  At the end Harbinger just drops down long enough to defend the beam from the attack then goes back into space to finish taking out rest of the fleet.

 

Yes the Normandy fled after picking up the squad mates. It didn't attempt to attack Harbinger it didn't attempt to unload a ton of new troops. Generally when your action consists of picking up something then turning the other way and running it is considered fleeing. I don't know what it means in your world but I wouldn't call that attacking. They weren't unloading fresh troops or equipment. Fleeing is about the only word that fits that action.

 

If your facing down a weapon capable of punching though the armor and kinetic barrier of a Mako Tank. Seeking cover is kind of a pointless action. Seriously ask anyone in the UK who survived the Blitz how effective going for cover behind a few inches of brick wall was against bombs created in the 40's. Those 40,000 deaths kind of show how useless that set up is.

 

Your post as requested:

 

 

Those so-called bufferfly kisses, that you call them, did distract the destroyer in that cutscene when it was fired upon from small arms fire. So yes, those butterfly kisses would distract Harbinger

 

If Joker was able to fire on Harbinger from behind, Harbinger would know it. He would turn around to see who/what is firing at him. He has no idea its only the one ship firing. As large as he is, it would take a couple of moments for him to turn around and then turn back around again to fire on the suicide runners heading to the beam. It would give Shepard time to get to the beam uninjured. Maybe instead of just having Joker firing at Harbinger, have a few fighters as well. Look how easy the destroyer on Tuchanka was distracted by the turian fighters. Unfortunately there is no scene showing Joker firing at Harbinger

 

And I shall repeat here what I said in other post. When Harbinger shows up it is specifically to stop the charge towards the beam. Nothing short of an attack that actually threatened it would cause it to take it's eyes off the beam for a second until the entire forced was destroyed or routed. This wasn't a blow up anything that attacks to break the ability to defend themselves. This wasn't stop them from getting to the shroud while we poison the planet. This wasn't ok now I'm angry for taking away our new favorite toys and attempting to blow up my face.

 

This was a very specific reason it intervened for and nothing short of an actual threat would make Harbinger take it's eyes off the prize. And considering that Reapers like Harbinger are able to take on Dreadnoughts which are the largest and most powerful war ships we can create with main guns  capable of rendering an entire planet inhospitable to life. A rifle wouldn't do anything to distract it.

[Natureguy85]

Oh boy, the things I have to read after a few days away.

 

No I acknowledged your argument then I pointing out things you seem to want to skip over. All games had about equal plot issues if you examine them close enough. To complain about ME2 and 3 and to claim ME1 was better is ignoring those flaws so hard.

 

The Mp3 evidence is super important that is the very thing that allows the story to continue. Without that evidence Saren is never black listed by Council. Without that evidence Shepard is never made a Specter. Without that Mp3 the entire plot can not advance. I would call that important.

 

ME1 was better. I'm not ignoring the flaws to state this. They don't break the story and are within my suspension of disbelief. Things like the MP3 file seem a bit silly but they don't fly in the face of logic or violate any of the world building that had been done already. The MP3 file is a plot device to get things started, not one to finish things off. It's not nearly as problematic.

 

 

 

Why would you assemble a large task force of people and keep all but 2 sitting on a ship? What was it on Noveria 6 security officers were having trouble fending off a couple of Rachni. Yet Shepard and 2 other people are able to slaughter their way though Saren's entire ground force to reach the Council Chambers?  Up to but not limited to multiple Geth Primes the most powerful Geth ground unit and multiple Krogans who are notoriously hard to kill without some serious fire power. Was able to wade though all those soldiers without any support and suffered no casualties even though that set up of just Geth were able to wipe out all military forces on Eden Prime. At least in relegation to the area around the beacon. Which I'm sure was already increased due to them finding the Beacon in the first place to prevent pirates from getting their hands on it.  Everyone leaving on a mission and Shepard picking his specific squad and the rest provide cover support is the only thing that makes any logical sense. 

 

If this is a problem for you then you need to stop playing video games. The player is always empowered over a normal person and NPCs.

 

 

Added the tracking was hidden in the IFF program so even EDI didn't realize it till it was to late. Yes the set up of Shep taking everyone with him on an unnamed mission makes sense. It is unnamed because the players wouldn't be controlling Shepard for that mission.  This advances the plot but makes more sense then the Mp3 over eye witnesses in ME1.

 

This is just ridiculous. How does Shepard taking the entire team with him to do nothing or "something unknown" make any sense, especially considering everything else beforehand had been accomplished by a three person team? That was totally contrived to set up the Collector invasion. It was used to give the player a problem, not to open up an adventure. The audio log isn't even comparable.

 

 

Ambassadors do not have that kind of power it would be idiotic for someone not in the military to be given that kind of power to use at will. Hell even the President of the USA who is technically the Commander in Chief  of all the military can't pull that **** at random. Added it makes no sense to ground him anyways. SR-1 is not a war ship it is a prototype stealth ship so the Normandy wouldn't be any use in combat anyways. Not to mention he is a Specter to boot the right arm/secret police of the Council. Who just lead a team into the heart of Saren's operations. So when he claims there is something else going on and no one believes him it makes no sense.  This is another point that is extremely stupid and the entire story hinges on it.  Because if Shep wasn't busy dealing with Udina being a massive gaping anus Shepard could have gotten to Ilos first. Found Vigil and showed the Council what the Conduit is and prevented Saren/Sovereign from being able to do anything that happens at the end of the game.

 

Seriously without Udina's random d baggery that makes no sense what so ever Saren would have passed though the Conduit and been met with every C sec, Turian Military, Asari Huntress, Human Military, Salarian STG, and maybe a few assorted Krogan told about a big fight possibly happening waiting with a gun pointed at him.

 

You have no idea what authority Udina has. You need to stop trying to make real world comparisons to a fictional world that operates differently. Judge the world by its own rules. You can only judge it by the reals world where it's similar to the real world.  Udina obviously got Shepard the command of the Normandy in the first place.

 

You're complaining that the Council's actions make no sense as if that weren't the point. The Council and Udina are supposed to look like fools blocking Shepard. That creates the drama of stealing the Normandy.

 

As for the last part, nobody knew what the Conduit was, so I'd like to know how that would happen. Saren was able to teleport an army right into the Presidum.

 

 

 

Udina's actions in ME3 do make sense in context of his character. He has always been humans first other second but he is smart enough to know to play ball rather then stubbornly insist out loud. All of ME1 he was all about the advancement of Humanity in the galactic community. That **** eating grin he has when he loudly mentions that the Council with his help of course will now be dealing with Saren really says it all. Then you have TIM who is a master manipulator. Seriously you don't build a massive multi billion dollar terrorist organization by being an idiot.  Combine this with the galaxy basically going yea I know you are really hurting but I'm going to look out for myself now so good luck. His actions make sense.

 

Humans take the inital brunt of the attack and are in desperate need of credits to fun the war effort. TIM strolls in to offer his support financially. Udina takes it because he has no other choice. TIM starts up about how unfair it is that the Council abandons humanity the moment they feel threatened. How the entire reason the Reapers are a threat is because they ignored Shepard's and indeed humanities warning about them.  How the Council is so divided by fear they aren't acting effectivly. That if someone were to take control of the Council with 1 person as the leader they could direct the entire Council Fleets and remove the Reaper threat.

 

Basically Emperor Palpating stuff.

 

Is any of that about Udina's motivations in the game? It sounds ok, but all Cerberus does is get humans killed and Udina would know that.

 

 

Game never uses more then 3 people for game play/hard ware reasons. Seriously just about every action game support character's actions are either specific scripted events or they exist simply as cannon fodder.  Running blindly towards the enemy and being mowed down by the dozens. Halo is full of that stuff as only Master Chief or later the Arbiter actually matter so they are the only characters that don't get mowed down and who's AI is a bit smarter then the marines which get mowed down on any mission they join you on.  The mission they leave for isn't important in the slightest because the point is just to show them leaving. Since you don't actually activitly participate in any mission during the abduction of the crew outside of controlling Joker they don't need to explain the mission. It doesn't matter if they are taking down another merc base or attacking a pirate group that has info on the collectors.

 

You complained about this in your last post. Decide if it's ok for games or not.

 

The point of everyone leaving was to allow the attack. But this had never been done before so having a reason to take the entire squad is important. They are using this weird action to attack the player and force a difficult situation. They have to justify it and almost any reason would have been fine. Anything more than nothing, as Smudboy said in his video about it. And why not make a playable mission?

 

 

 

And investigation is vastly different then completely grounding a Special Ops Soldier. And unless you forgot Anderson agreed on both counts to step back from the investigation and give up command of the Normandy. Due to his previous involvement with Saren only hurting their case and the fact that Shepard would need the ship more then him. In fact there is an Admiral you can talk to during the events of ME1 were he directly expresses how upset he is that the Alliance gave the ship to the Council to be used. Being perfectly ok with Shepard being thrown to them. The Normandy wouldn't start a war with the Terminus Systems as Specters have already operated in that area before. And the fact the Normandy has been operating in that area already. All Udina and the Council needed to say was no we won't send any fleets to assist you. But if you feel it necessary you can go by yourself.  This was already the logic they were using to let Shepard the brand new Specter hunt down Saren even though there would have been plenty of other more experienced ones that could have done it.

 

It's clear from Anderson's tone that he was told to step down and is just being a good military man and following orders. He's not happy about it. I'm not sure why you're bringing up the other Admiral who isn't happy that the Council now has the ship and Shepard.

 

The Council questions Shepard's ability to remain covert in the Terminus Systems. The dialogue is clear on this.

[Natureguy85]

Actually TIM is pretty damn smart all things considered. It is only near the end of ME3 doesn't he truly start to drop the ball and by then it is fairly heavily hinted and later confirmed that he is indoctrinated. The actions of Cerberus were certainly morally questionable but what they were attempting to do if you strip morality out of the question would have advanced humanity. The ability to create super biotic warriors (Jack)  or manipulate the Geth (David) into following his orders would have given humanity a massive leg up to other races. Hell even his dabbling in Reaper modification of troops into fearless super solders would have given humanity a massive edge in combat.

 

Where is TIM shown to be smart? The only Cerberus plans to go at all well are Shepard defeating the Collectors and whatever TIM does to control Anderson and Shepard at the end. The video logs on Jack's loyalty mission indicate TIM didn't know what was happening there. Project Overlord was a disaster salvaged by Shepard. We're told he doesn't do much direct involvement in projects. The last thing gets him and his soldiers Indoctrinated.

 

 

 

Pure audio recordings aren't always accepted in today's courts because of how easy they are to fake.

 

1. The Alliance still officially gave Shepard command of the SR-1. Which means Udina would need clearance from someone sufficiently high up on the Alliance Military to be allowed to issue lock downs like that on Alliance Military Crafts. Even the Council members can not order fleet movements from their respective races out side of the ships that make up the Citadel Fleet.  Hence why in ME3 after the Turian Councilor's hint Shepard attempts to get a Primarch on his side to side step the Council to get support. Why the Council only finally stepped in during the First Contact War only when both Humans and Turians were getting ready for full scale war. And even then it isn't like the Council just snapped it's fingers and the Turian's backed down.

 

2. Been a while but didn't seem like the Council wanted Shepard out of the picture. They just didn't agree about sending a fleet to Ilos. They would have lost nothing by letting Shepard go alone to Ilos to investigate. In fact considering the rate at which they are wrong about Shepard at that point it makes no sense why they would be so hard pressed against letting Shepard go alone to Ilos. It isn't like the Normandy is an important ship in the fleet.

 

3. Shepard is a Specter capable of accessing data and areas normally off limits to everyone. Noveria is a key point there as it is a private corporation. Not only was Shepard allows to snoop around but he was allowed to walk in fully armed and access all but the most sensitive data from the VI on Peak 43.  Alliance dock or not his specter status should have overrode Udina's lock down order.

 

What other insect species is capable of surviving in the vacuum of space for  a couple thousand years. And are capable of giving birth right away because their father's genetic imprint is left on them? I would like to know these insect species.

 

Stop trying to use the real world to argue the fictional one.

 

1) You have no idea what the process was. Udina does it. We don't know if he had to make 1 phone call or 30. We don't know what his authority is, but we do know he can lock down the Alliance dock from his personal computer.

 

2) Go watch it again. Shepard offers to go alone but is rejected by the Turian Councilor.

 

3) Specter status wouldn't override a lockdown with which the Council agrees.

 

The Rachni are aliens. If the writer says they can do those things, then they can. There's nothing wrong with the Rachni.
You really don't understand how fiction works or is written.

 

 

 

 

grrr.... Shepard is the Catalyst.  

 

You really need to get over this. I've heard your argument and you're right, but that's "catalyst" with a small "c", true to the definition of the word and to the theme and tone of the ending section. The Catalyst is the Catalyst with a capital "C" because he says "I am the Catalyst." It was supposed to be the catalyst for peace and blah blah blah.

 

 

One of the great thing about this trilogy is they keep the fact we are hopelessly out matched across all the trilogy. We have moments of victory that are hard brought but they are only small things in the over all conflict. It is such an over used and boring cliche to have the once powerless protagonist suddenly able to match if not exceed the power of the antagonist forces. That is why a few moments that people complain about I love so much. The beam run moment is one of them that I've seen a few forum users complain about. I love it because it just enforces how hopeless the struggle is.

 

If you get the best fleet together possibly usually with Paragon play though it start off looking like we are able to hold our own. As the level progresses you see the Reaper forces slowly but surely wiping everything out. By the time you reach the command base you can hear NPC talk about how half of the hammer drop ships were destroyed before they arrived causing the massive lose of personnel and equipment. On the way just about every NPC you run into gets killed, you have to fight wave after wave of unending Reaper troops and you only just manage to destroy the AA Reaper. And just when they think after a hard won fight they have a small glimmer of hope during the run to the beam BAM Reapers are there and stopping you routing the entire force killing many and forcing the rest to retreat.

 

It plays out almost like a horror story or some bad dream and that is what makes it great. The fact you are met with the Catalyst while you lay there broken and dying, the fleets being destroyed and all hope being lost is the single greatest part of this story. Because it really bring home how powerful, how threatening the Reapers really are. And it really gives justice to them rather them and the threat they pose and why they have been able to repeat this cycle an untold amount of times.

 

To approach the ending with any position of power or knowledge would undo everything they have done so far to set the Reapers up as an unstoppable forced in the galaxy.  The ending options you are presented with are all based on your moral choice. There is no right or wrong choice just what you think is morally correct. Which again despite how many like to complain about the ending giving multiple choice and no one answer is the correct one is the best way to end this game.

 

That's fine, but there has to be a way to overcome those odds. The Crucible was a poor way to do this because they didn't explain or explore it at all. You just find the plans, build it, find out what it does at the end from the antagonist, and then use it and everything works out. Yay.

 

 

 

1. Why would it attack the Normandy when it is fleeing?

 

Why not? The Reapers want to kill everyone and destroy everything. The more common sense option doesn't need justification.

[Natureguy85]

So you are using beginning of the game to justify an action at the very end of it?

 

This is called consistency and is one of the most important things a story requires.

 

So you are using beginning of the game to justify an action at the very end of it? Ok well at that point Reapers were trying to ground as many ships as possible to prevent the population from fleeing. Thus giving them the maximum amount of people to harvest.  At the end Harbinger just drops down long enough to defend the beam from the attack then goes back into space to finish taking out rest of the fleet.

 

Yes the Normandy fled after picking up the squad mates. It didn't attempt to attack Harbinger it didn't attempt to unload a ton of new troops. Generally when your action consists of picking up something then turning the other way and running it is considered fleeing. I don't know what it means in your world but I wouldn't call that attacking. They weren't unloading fresh troops or equipment. Fleeing is about the only word that fits that action.

 

If your facing down a weapon capable of punching though the armor and kinetic barrier of a Mako Tank. Seeking cover is kind of a pointless action. Seriously ask anyone in the UK who survived the Blitz how effective going for cover behind a few inches of brick wall was against bombs created in the 40's. Those 40,000 deaths kind of show how useless that set up is.

 

Was Harbinger saving ammo? The Reapers want everyone dead and all the ships destroyed. Those shuttles exploded. I doubt they will get any harvest from them.

 

As for the "cover" argument, you're right that they wouldn't provide cover, but they could provide concealment. Harbinger might not detect someone hiding behind it and wouldn't shoot them.

[KaiserShep]

So you are using beginning of the game to justify an action at the very end of it? Ok well at that point Reapers were trying to ground as many ships as possible to prevent the population from fleeing. Thus giving them the maximum amount of people to harvest.  At the end Harbinger just drops down long enough to defend the beam from the attack then goes back into space to finish taking out rest of the fleet.

 

Yes the Normandy fled after picking up the squad mates. It didn't attempt to attack Harbinger it didn't attempt to unload a ton of new troops. Generally when your action consists of picking up something then turning the other way and running it is considered fleeing. I don't know what it means in your world but I wouldn't call that attacking. They weren't unloading fresh troops or equipment. Fleeing is about the only word that fits that action.

 

If your facing down a weapon capable of punching though the armor and kinetic barrier of a Mako Tank. Seeking cover is kind of a pointless action. Seriously ask anyone in the UK who survived the Blitz how effective going for cover behind a few inches of brick wall was against bombs created in the 40's. Those 40,000 deaths kind of show how useless that set up is.

 

Your post as requested:

 

 

And I shall repeat here what I said in other post. When Harbinger shows up it is specifically to stop the charge towards the beam. Nothing short of an attack that actually threatened it would cause it to take it's eyes off the beam for a second until the entire forced was destroyed or routed. This wasn't a blow up anything that attacks to break the ability to defend themselves. This wasn't stop them from getting to the shroud while we poison the planet. This wasn't ok now I'm angry for taking away our new favorite toys and attempting to blow up my face.

 

This was a very specific reason it intervened for and nothing short of an actual threat would make Harbinger take it's eyes off the prize. And considering that Reapers like Harbinger are able to take on Dreadnoughts which are the largest and most powerful war ships we can create with main guns  capable of rendering an entire planet inhospitable to life. A rifle wouldn't do anything to distract it.

 

 

Aw man, you're killing me here. For srs tho, Harbinger is a 2 km tall killbot that can fire multiple death rays simultaneously. As everyone is storming the field to get to the beam, Harbinger is killing Makos and Mantis gunships left and right, and they are farther away from the beam than the Normandy. Then suddenly, the very same ship that went through the Omega 4 relay and neutralized their Contra 3 Boss Factory and was constantly ducking the reaper fleet for the entire campaign is practically served up on a silver platter, and Harby just stares? 

[Dantriges]

For all he knows, the SR 2 could be loading troops when it hovered to get them closer to the beam or so.Nihlus dropped out of the ship when it was in the air. Sounds stupid, is probably hard to do but so is doing a medevac with a frigate which was in orbit seconds ago. there´s no reason not to shoot.
 
So Reapers in general shoot people that flee so they can harvest them. Sad thing that these beams aren´t adjustable.
Ok, objectives changed to fight the fleet. Oh look there is a pretty nimble and hard to catch stealth frigate and a PITA in general, just hovering in front of your main battery. What will this frigate do, once it goes into orbit again? Pick its nose or fight?
So the only real options are shoot it to blow it up or shoot it and cripple it, so you can harvest all these juicy organics and crush or injure Shep and all these guys milling around the hovering death by crushing weight.
Or we can pick "Sry, script says mopey scene, no kill shots allowed," option.
Even if the Reapers don´t have visual sensors (lampshade reason: outdated crap only Collectors or Oculi have). Harbinger would see all these humans milling around, you could probably also sense the slight disturbance a spaceship entering and breaking at hypervelocity speeds would make in an atmosphere.
Let´s not talk about an open hangar door probably being quite bad for stealth.

[themikefest]

So you are using beginning of the game to justify an action at the very end of it? Ok well at that point Reapers were trying to ground as many ships as possible to prevent the population from fleeing. Thus giving them the maximum amount of people to harvest.  At the end Harbinger just drops down long enough to defend the beam from the attack then goes back into space to finish taking out rest of the fleet.
 
Yes the Normandy fled after picking up the squad mates. It didn't attempt to attack Harbinger it didn't attempt to unload a ton of new troops. Generally when your action consists of picking up something then turning the other way and running it is considered fleeing. I don't know what it means in your world but I wouldn't call that attacking. They weren't unloading fresh troops or equipment. Fleeing is about the only word that fits that action.

The shuttles are fleeing. They are not attacking. They didn't unload any troops or supplies. Both were picking up folks to get them to safety. I don't know what it means in your world, but I wouldn't call it attacking.

 

If your facing down a weapon capable of punching though the armor and kinetic barrier of a Mako Tank. Seeking cover is kind of a pointless action. Seriously ask anyone in the UK who survived the Blitz how effective going for cover behind a few inches of brick wall was against bombs created in the 40's. Those 40,000 deaths kind of show how useless that set up is.

My day is made. You made an analogy. All I asked was would you get to cover, if possible, after seeing others killed.
 

Your post as requested:

And you still haven't proven that I said small arms fire would damage Harbinger
 

And I shall repeat here what I said in other post. When Harbinger shows up it is specifically to stop the charge towards the beam. Nothing short of an attack that actually threatened it would cause it to take it's eyes off the beam for a second until the entire forced was destroyed or routed. This wasn't a blow up anything that attacks to break the ability to defend themselves. This wasn't stop them from getting to the shroud while we poison the planet. This wasn't ok now I'm angry for taking away our new favorite toys and attempting to blow up my face.
 
This was a very specific reason it intervened for and nothing short of an actual threat would make Harbinger take it's eyes off the prize. And considering that Reapers like Harbinger are able to take on Dreadnoughts which are the largest and most powerful war ships we can create with main guns  capable of rendering an entire planet inhospitable to life. A rifle wouldn't do anything to distract it.

You go ahead and believe that a distraction is the same as damaging it. Its not what I said. Keep trying though, if it makes you feel better.

[themikefest]

The Normandy SR 2 has EDI and the Reaper IFF. Harbinger didn't shoot at the Normandy because he didn't comprehend what he was "seeing". It was an anomaly and it wasn't shooting at him, therefore it was just something to be wary of but it wasn't a threat. Remember, all of a Reaper's sensory devices are electronic. They can be fooled/spoofed.

If that's the case, why didn't the Normandy just fly to the beam and drop off Shepard?

 

The other thing is why not load up a few teams on the Normandy and send it to Earth, since it has the IFF, having those teams deal with the hades cannons before the fleets head to Earth? That is something I mentioned in a thread I created on what I would have for Priority Earth.

[gothpunkboy89]

Aw man, you're killing me here. For srs tho, Harbinger is a 2 km tall killbot that can fire multiple death rays simultaneously. As everyone is storming the field to get to the beam, Harbinger is killing Makos and Mantis gunships left and right, and they are farther away from the beam than the Normandy. Then suddenly, the very same ship that went through the Omega 4 relay and neutralized their Contra 3 Boss Factory and was constantly ducking the reaper fleet for the entire campaign is practically served up on a silver platter, and Harby just stares? 

 

That was added in during the Extended Cut because players were complaining about how your squad mates made it back to the Normandy for the final scene. Since the very last level is suppose to be Shepard only this would require instant kill of who ever you took with you. Which players would complain about.  Or would require a scene like what happened in game. Be it the Normandy, Shuttle, Or a group of Hanar with their tentacles interlocked all wearing jet packs.

 

This is an absurdity that players created themselves for the game by demanding answers do an unimportant question.

[gothpunkboy89]

My day is made. You made an analogy. All I asked was would you get to cover, if possible, after seeing others killed.
 

And you still haven't proven that I said small arms fire would damage Harbinger
 

You go ahead and believe that a distraction is the same as damaging it. Its not what I said. Keep trying though, if it makes you feel better.

 

If the cover is useless no I wouldn't seek it. Running would give you at least a chance to survive. Hiding would only make you an easier target.

 

You keep trying to twist the argument. It is funny and pathetic at the same time.

 

-I never made the claim that you said small arms would damage Harbinger.

 

-I pointed out that small arms would deal no damage to Harbinger due to the damage those kind of Reapers have been shown to take.

 

-I also pointed out that the only reason Harbinger appears is to defend the beam from the assault team.

 

-I stated that it showing up for a very specific reason means nothing short of something capable of actually endangering it would distract it from it's job

 

-It's action of leaving as soon as the group was routed with the majority of troops and equipment destroyed backs this statement up. 

[themikefest]

-I never made the claim that you said small arms would damage Harbinger.

 

How ever you are still ignoring my post. How in your mind could small arms fire suddenly be able to do enough damage to distract Harbinger when other similar sized Reapers have been shown to take main gun fire from dreadnought class ships and keep going?

 

You're implying I said small arms fire needs to damage Harbinger to distract the reaper. Why? If I distract Harbinger without causing damage, great. That's all I wanted to do. If I wanted to damage Harbinger, I would not use small arms fire. I would call in Joker to fire at Harbinger from behind. Would the Normandy be able to damage Harbinger? Don't know. If the ship was able to damage Harbinger, how much damage would it do? Don't know.

[MrFob]

This is an absurdity that players created themselves for the game by demanding answers do an unimportant question.

 

That's a hell of an argument: BW does some sloppy writing -> Fans complain that it doesn't make sense -> BW changes its sloppy writing to absurd writing -> It's the fault of the fans.

[gothpunkboy89]

That's a hell of an argument: BW does some sloppy writing -> Fans complain that it doesn't make sense -> BW changes its sloppy writing to absurd writing -> It's the fault of the fans.

 

Not really sloppy writing. They could have simply retreated thinking Shep was killed by the shot. As the Reapers forces swarmed the base Normandy showed up to help pull troops out of the fire before returning to orbit under fire.

 

But that concept wasn't good enough for people and they apparently need everything spelled out for it. Cue them adding in the Normandy picking up the crew right in front of Harbinger.

 

Also the structure around the beam's point of contact on the ground could have been a necessity to maintaining the beam's integrity.  Blowing up a few Makos is one thing but to blow up the Normandy would create a significantly bigger boom and could damage the structure and disrupt the beam. Since the Reapers are currently making a big pot of scrap metal out in space and the Reaper forces are turning London into a mass grave with the ground forces. Why bother to possibly damage the beam structure to gain nothing of value? Defeat is an inevitability for the citizens of the galaxy at that point. Running only delays the inevitable for a short while.

[ImaginaryMatter]

 

This is an absurdity that players created themselves for the game by demanding answers do an unimportant question.

 

[Natureguy85]

That was added in during the Extended Cut because players were complaining about how your squad mates made it back to the Normandy for the final scene. Since the very last level is suppose to be Shepard only this would require instant kill of who ever you took with you. Which players would complain about.  Or would require a scene like what happened in game. Be it the Normandy, Shuttle, Or a group of Hanar with their tentacles interlocked all wearing jet packs.

 

This is an absurdity that players created themselves for the game by demanding answers do an unimportant question.

 

The fate of major characters is not unimportant. Knowing how they got from one place to another is important.

 

 

 

-I also pointed out that the only reason Harbinger appears is to defend the beam from the assault team.

 

-I stated that it showing up for a very specific reason means nothing short of something capable of actually endangering it would distract it from it's job

 

-It's action of leaving as soon as the group was routed with the majority of troops and equipment destroyed backs this statement up. 

 

You have nothing to base that on. Maybe, maybe not. However, that Harbinger leaves after the threat to the beam is gone says nothing about whether or not it could be distracted. Even if Harbinger doesn't turn, you just have to overwhelm him so much that he can't hit everything and one or two guys get through.

 

 

 

Not really sloppy writing. They could have simply retreated thinking Shep was killed by the shot. As the Reapers forces swarmed the base Normandy showed up to help pull troops out of the fire before returning to orbit under fire.

 

But that concept wasn't good enough for people and they apparently need everything spelled out for it. Cue them adding in the Normandy picking up the crew right in front of Harbinger.

 

Also the structure around the beam's point of contact on the ground could have been a necessity to maintaining the beam's integrity.  Blowing up a few Makos is one thing but to blow up the Normandy would create a significantly bigger boom and could damage the structure and disrupt the beam. Since the Reapers are currently making a big pot of scrap metal out in space and the Reaper forces are turning London into a mass grave with the ground forces. Why bother to possibly damage the beam structure to gain nothing of value? Defeat is an inevitability for the citizens of the galaxy at that point. Running only delays the inevitable for a short while.

 

Which sounds like what happened. The problem is that shown or not, the Normandy coming out of the space battle to pick them up is pretty silly.

 

That is an extremely lazy and silly explanation of why not to shoot the Normandy. It's probably not going to create a massive explosion if Harbinger blows off the cockpit.

 

 

 

That's awesome.

[MrFob]

Which sounds like what happened. The problem is that shown or not, the Normandy coming out of the space battle to pick them up is pretty silly.

 

That is an extremely lazy and silly explanation of why not to shoot the Normandy. It's probably not going to create a massive explosion if Harbinger blows off the cockpit.

 

I am always for making up stuff that can explain the plot, so I don't have anything against gothpunkboy89's explanation here (although before, when it was the fan's fault, he readily admitted it was an absurdity, then he's trying to rationalize, it's comforting to see how at least people on this forum are consistent).

 

BUT there a couple of things to mention here:

- As you point out, just because we can come up with stuff why things might have worked, it still doesn't excuse that the writing team didn't tell us (and clearly never thought about it). Our efforts to repair this mess are fun for us but they are not part of this story, so don't make the writing any better.

- The fact that Harby doesn't shoot the Normandy isn't even my biggest problem with that scene. As gothpunkboy89 shows, it would have been easy for the writers to come up with some technobabble to make that work. No, there are two bigger problems, one small one and one big one:

The small one: If the Normandy could just fly to the beam, why not deliver troops there in the first place. I can rationalize this one away by assuming that somehow the situation changed (destroyer taken out, maybe more reaper air forces taken out at the time, ground atatck in progress) that allowed this but still, this is not made clear either.

The big problem: Why does Shepard even call for an evac at this point? During my game, my squad mates go down all the time during combat. I just finish the enemies of and rely on their suit's in build medical systems to revive them after the battle is done. I never call the Normandy for evac, it's not even an option for Shepard. And that's just the normal game, where often, evac might even be feasible and when there is no big time constraint. Now, here, we are at the end of all things. It is hammered down time and time again that "this is it". We make our good byes and everyone is clearly ready to die for the cause with the entire galaxy at steak (sorry, Shepard pun, had to be there ). Shepard is running toward Harbinger himself, but he made it, he is basically through the beam already but this is the point where he turns around and has the brilliant idea to call in the Normandy, which at the time is engulfed in the space battle that is going on overhead. What?!?

This is clearly not Shepard, this is some writer saying "hey, we messed this thing up before, how do we fix it with just adding 5 lines?"

 

And you are right gothpunkboy89, in retrospect, it might have been better not to "fix" it at all or to just let those two squad mates die but to quote Adam Jenson, we (the fans) never asked for this, we just stated the true fact that there was no explanation for the squad mates to get to the Normandy (among many other things). Saying that the fans are responsible for the evac scene as it happened, now THAT is absurd.

[Monica21]

The biggest problem I have with the evac scene is why in the world is the Normandy doing the evac? It might just be a frigate, but it's a huge ship and it lands as close to the front line of a war zone as you can get. If Cortez is still alive, why isn't it the shuttle? Why can't it be Coates? Why can't it be the Mako you rode over there in? If you're going to have a scene that explains how your injured crew got back on the Normandy, there are ways to do it without having Harbinger's biggest target land right in front of him.