Talking toasters are so special that it's worth jeopardizing the mission, yeah. Hello, who blew up the whole system of batarians to prevent the Reapers from returning? Commander Shepard. What is a few synthetics in comparison to that?
Whats the old saying again? Its only genocide if you like the entire race/group of people killed?
Not when one is offered other options.
There is no other option, because our goal is eliminating Reapers.
There is no other option, because our goal is eliminating Reapers.
I know some folks might consider this a bit petty, but self preservation, to me, is a pretty powerful factor here. If I was standing there making this decision, and I absolutely had to die to facilitate 2 of the 3 options, I'd pick the option that doesn't automatically end in my demise without hesitation. I wouldn't kill myself for the robots, and I wouldn't kill myself for the Normandy's computer, whether or not I befriended it. Heck I wouldn't really die for any of the alien species throughout the galaxy either. I don't want to kill the geth or EDI, but I'd do so in a heartbeat to kill the reapers.
Mo; your goal may be, but mine was to bring peace.
Yours - maybe. But Shepard in basically every conversation with The Illusive Man says that he wants to "defeat the Reapers". Not "become one with the Reapers".
Yours - maybe. But Shepard in basically every conversation with The Illusive Man says that he wants to "defeat the Reapers". Not "become one with the Reapers".
Not becoming one with the Reapers (another franchise anyway); am gaining Synthetic coded DNA so as to cease Galactic conflict. Temporary defeat for the sake of repeating the process is not a win; tis a stall tactic at best, and seemingly designed in a stall at worst...
Who says it is "temporary"? The A. I. that is about to be wipe from the galaxy by your weapon of super-mass destruction. The same A.I. that couldn't eliminate Leviathan, that couldn't prevent Protheans from altering Citadel signal, nor defeat of Sovereign or Collectors. Not the best advisor in my book.
Who says it is "temporary"? The A. I. that is about to be wipe from the galaxy by your weapon of super-mass destruction. The same A.I. that couldn't eliminate Leviathan, that couldn't prevent Protheans from altering Citadel signal, nor defeat of Sovereign or Collectors. Not the best advisor in my book.
Destroy solve the Reaper problem but doesn't necessitate the elimination of the over all synthetic vs organic problem.
In essence Destroy option treats the symptoms of the illness but doesn't actually address with illness. Control, Synthesis at least attempt to address both symptoms and illness in their own way.
Destroy solve the Reaper problem but doesn't necessitate the elimination of the over all synthetic vs organic problem.
Who says about "synthetic vs organic problem"? The A. I. that is about to be wipe from the galaxy by your weapon of super-mass destruction. The same A.I. that couldn't eliminate Leviathan, that couldn't prevent Protheans from altering Citadel signal, nor defeat of Sovereign or Collectors. Not the best advisor in my book.
Destroy solve the Reaper problem but doesn't necessitate the elimination of the over all synthetic vs organic problem.
In essence Destroy option treats the symptoms of the illness but doesn't actually address with illness. Control, Synthesis at least attempt to address both symptoms and illness in their own way.
I'd never pick Destroy, but I'm skeptical of the Catalyst's argument. Shepard can contradict its arguments by making peace with the Geth and Quarians, and on a smaller scale by befriending EDI. On one hand, it has been around for a billion years and has presumably seen a lot during its observation of the cycles, on the other hand it's pretty clear (if you have the Leviathan DLC) that for all its age and knowledge, it's just a lazily-designed VI that can't break out of its original programming or see how its own actions are exacerbating the problem, and is stuck in a mental vicious cycle.
Who says about "synthetic vs organic problem"? The A. I. that is about to be wipe from the galaxy by your weapon of super-mass destruction. The same A.I. that couldn't eliminate Leviathan, that couldn't prevent Protheans from altering Citadel signal, nor defeat of Sovereign or Collectors. Not the best advisor in my book.
So your saying a species that is on the technological and mental equal of the AI was able to out wit it and hide by quite literally giving up all tech?
Who said it could have prevented the signal alteration or the defeat of Sovereign or Collectors? You are jumping to a lot of conclusions of it's over all capabilities. It clearly has limitations of what it can and can't do.
I'd never pick Destroy, but I'm skeptical of the Catalyst's argument. Shepard can contradict its arguments by making peace with the Geth and Quarians, and on a smaller scale by befriending EDI. On one hand, it has been around for a billion years and has presumably seen a lot during its observation of the cycles, on the other hand it's pretty clear (if you have the Leviathan DLC) that for all its age and knowledge, it's just a lazily-designed VI that can't break out of its original programming or see how its own actions are exacerbating the problem, and is stuck in a mental vicious cycle.
Peace with Geth doesn't contradict anything. Geth as far as synthetic life would go are still children. The Catalyst was very clear that synthetics would need to reach the point of removing the restrictions of Organics to truly evolve. To completely by definition surpass them. If you made peace with Geth then they are only just starting down this path thanks to the Reaper upgrade removing the limitation that restricted their growth.
Or case in point the US and Soviet Union were allies during WW2. And we all know what happened post WW2.
You are jumping to a lot of conclusions of it's over all capabilities. It clearly has limitations of what it can and can't do.
There is no "jumping". Catalyst is simply untrustworthy. It's not all-knowing. It's not omnipotent. Then why drastically change the goal because the worst enemy of galaxy, responsible for countless deaths and the worst war of our cycle said "you know bro, we exterminate you for your own good! So, y'know, don't kill us, man, we're totally on the same side! It's not like I was *ever* wrong, right?".
Survival is fine and all, but only known from OOG information. I would prefer self-sacrifice to save an entire species, instead of living with the guilt that I destroyed them to live.
Well, Destroy is the only option in which death isn't an outright guarantee, so while nothing promises that Shepard would live, at least one doesn't involve dissolving into the ether through some crazy electrical doodads. In any case, I don't think that guilt would be a particularly strong feeling to determine whether or not I'd destroy the reapers and save myself at the cost of another "species", especially one that has been, up until this point, a major pain in the ass and helped more than once to bring on the apocalypse.
Peace with Geth doesn't contradict anything. Geth as far as synthetic life would go are still children. The Catalyst was very clear that synthetics would need to reach the point of removing the restrictions of Organics to truly evolve. To completely by definition surpass them. If you made peace with Geth then they are only just starting down this path thanks to the Reaper upgrade removing the limitation that restricted their growth.
Or case in point the US and Soviet Union were allies during WW2. And we all know what happened post WW2.
I can understand that, I guess. And since Destroy wipes out the Geth unless you already killed them, it's entirely possible that they will be replaced by a new species of synthetic servants that are less willing to coexist...
Destroy solve the Reaper problem but doesn't necessitate the elimination of the over all synthetic vs organic problem.
In essence Destroy option treats the symptoms of the illness but doesn't actually address with illness. Control, Synthesis at least attempt to address both symptoms and illness in their own way.
I don't really see it as a really big problem. I cured the krogan and saved the rachni, so I have two majorly deadly species that reproduce like mad and love taking over worlds. I'm supposed to worry about robots? Fuggetaboutit. The way I see it, the likeliest outcome is the machines eventually get ornery, they get wiped out and we harvest them for scrap. Maybe it'll repeat itself hundreds of years in the future, but that's not my concern.
Before Harbinger shows up it does show multiple Reapers breaking off the attack and heading towards Earth. Which Hackett tells any available ships to break off the attack and delay those Reapers. Since it would be an atmosphere fight only Frigates and maybe Cruisers could deal with this as any larger ship wouldn't be able to break free of the atmosphere. This would put the Normandy in the area to respond to an evac call. Like wise the now multiple ships in the air above the beam would provide more targets for the AA guns to focus on. Letting the Normandy with the stealth system sneak in. It didn't drop any troops due to the fact it was focusing on space battles only being called into orbit to delay the Reapers heading towards the beam.
2 minute mark shows multiple Reapers heading towards Hammer (Shepard) And Hackett ordering any one who can delay them.
Combine that with possibility of the structures around the beam needed to keep the beam in tact it would sum up how and why things happened as they did.
Holy crap, you have an actual point. If the Normandy was one of those ships intercepting the Reapers, then the evac scene becomes slightly less ridiculous in terms of the Normandy being there so quickly. All they'd need to add is a line of Joker acknowledging the order and saying the Normandy was going or a quick scene showing it. The evac scene is still stupid in that Shepard is stopping his actual mission of reaching the beam in order to do this, as well as endangering many others and risking the Normandy.
On a side note, I just realized that Harbinger lands behind the beam. This means that all they had to do was approach from angles that kept the tall spines around the beam between them and Harbinger. Everyone charges down the worst possible path.
I like to hear an explanation from BioWare how Steve managed to get back on the Normandy instead of the 2 squadmates
There was no need for the evac scene, Just have a shuttle pick up both squadmates. That is what I figured happened behind Shepard's back as she/he was shooting the 4 uglies
The Normandy has two shuttles. If Steve takes one to London, the other one is used to take the others to the forward operating base. What happens if the player does a playthrough with only James, edibot and Liara? If James and Liara are with Shepard, how does edibot get to London? Is it able to fly the shuttle itself? Simple. Have some npc from the Normandy fly the shuttle to London.
Harbinger doesn't leave until everyone charging the beam is wiped out. I originally thought the two squadmates died.
I understand that synthesis and control have some moral issues with them, but both are much, much better options than outright genocide of an innocent (yes, the Geth are essentially innocent, even though they have a history of making dumb mistakes when their backs are against the wall) people. Given the choice between making some people upset about some non-invasive cybernetics and murdering an entire species, I fail to see why anyone would choose the latter option.
The Geth have twice aligned themselves with the Reapers. Only once were their backs against the wall and even then they should know that the Reapers will be their end as well. However, Legion does say they were made momentarily stupid and panicked when the superstructure was destroyed, killing many Geth. As to someone choosing Destroy, it depends on if you consider the Geth alive and as valuable as other Synthetics. You're clearly meant to but the game gives you some room to decide for Shepard. Then you have to decide if that is an acceptable cost to defeat your enemy.
Not when one is offered other options.
Those other options do not accomplish the goal of defeating the Reapers. Shepard just told TIM that Control was a terrible idea. Synthesis is unknown other than that the Reapers want it. That should make it an almost automatic no-no.
Mo; your goal may be, but mine was to bring peace.
Then it was a goal set in the last scene because a larger, universal Synthetic vs Organic conflict was never a thing before then. It wasn't Shepard's goal; that was to defeat the Reapers.
Not becoming one with the Reapers (another franchise anyway); am gaining Synthetic coded DNA so as to cease Galactic conflict. Temporary defeat for the sake of repeating the process is not a win; tis a stall tactic at best, and seemingly designed in a stall at worst...
There is no guarantee that there is a problem in the first place. All you have is an unverifiable claim by the Catalyst with no supporting evidence from the narrative. Does Synthesis cease all conflict, or just Synthetic vs Organic?
Also, even if it were just a stalling tactic, there is nothing wrong with that. The idea of the Galaxy rejecting the Reapers and coming together to figure out their own solution to the problem would be entirely consistent with the themes of the series.
Destroy solve the Reaper problem but doesn't necessitate the elimination of the over all synthetic vs organic problem.
In essence Destroy option treats the symptoms of the illness but doesn't actually address with illness. Control, Synthesis at least attempt to address both symptoms and illness in their own way.
That is not a problem. It's a claimed problem by the enemy.
How does Control address the "illness?"
Who says about "synthetic vs organic problem"? The A. I. that is about to be wipe from the galaxy by your weapon of super-mass destruction. The same A.I. that couldn't eliminate Leviathan, that couldn't prevent Protheans from altering Citadel signal, nor defeat of Sovereign or Collectors. Not the best advisor in my book.
I see what you did there, and I love it.
I'd never pick Destroy, but I'm skeptical of the Catalyst's argument. Shepard can contradict its arguments by making peace with the Geth and Quarians, and on a smaller scale by befriending EDI. On one hand, it has been around for a billion years and has presumably seen a lot during its observation of the cycles, on the other hand it's pretty clear (if you have the Leviathan DLC) that for all its age and knowledge, it's just a lazily-designed VI that can't break out of its original programming or see how its own actions are exacerbating the problem, and is stuck in a mental vicious cycle.
Narratively, the Catalyst can't just show up, claim to be an authority, and demand that we listen to it. Evidence has to be presented, if not by the character, then by the events prior. This didn't happen.
You're right that it is basically a VI, despite it's claims to the contrary.
Who said it could have prevented the signal alteration or the defeat of Sovereign or Collectors? You are jumping to a lot of conclusions of it's over all capabilities. It clearly has limitations of what it can and can't do.
Yes, it's ability to think is severely limited. It's far more bound by it's mission than EDI is.
There is no "jumping". Catalyst is simply untrustworthy. It's not all-knowing. It's not omnipotent. Then why drastically change the goal because the worst enemy of galaxy, responsible for countless deaths and the worst war of our cycle said "you know bro, we exterminate you for your own good! So, y'know, don't kill us, man, we're totally on the same side! It's not like I was *ever* wrong, right?".
I can understand that, I guess. And since Destroy wipes out the Geth unless you already killed them, it's entirely possible that they will be replaced by a new species of synthetic servants that are less willing to coexist...
That is the point assuming the Geth is the sum total of any possible synthetic life between the point the game ends and the heat death of the universe is a lot like saying that humans are the sum total of any possible organic life between now and the heat death of the universe.
With the fact everyone seems to over look is that the Geth were created by sheer accident. And after the issue with Reapers any synthetic life that might be created though willing acts or by accident would be looked at by the vast majority of the galaxy much the same way the Sith look at the Jedi. Something that needs to be destroyed utterly and completely.
Suspicion and racial profiling are alive and well in the ME universe.
That is not a problem. It's a claimed problem by the enemy.
How does Control address the "illness?"
Yes, it's ability to think is severely limited. It's far more bound by it's mission than EDI is.
But it is a problem because the potential for growth with synthetics far out strips anything organics are capable of. I could become an expert on particle physics but it would take years for me to do that. It would take EDI how ever long it takes her to download all relevant information and then minutes maybe hours to fully comprehend everything.
Even if they only had the life span of a Salarian, within hours of it being created they would be able to possess the knowledge it would take decades to get.
Well at the end of Control choice Shepard is left in possession of a massive highly advanced fleet of ships. That kind of give him an edge in the whole keep the peace bit he goes on about.
The Catalyst chooses to have those restrictions because it is still trying to solve the problem. It wouldn't be a very good job if every time something vaugly off script happened it jumped the gun to correct it.
You seem to continually add an almost pathetic desperation to the Catalyst that doesn't seem to exist.
But it is a problem because the potential for growth with synthetics far out strips anything organics are capable of. I could become an expert on particle physics but it would take years for me to do that. It would take EDI how ever long it takes her to download all relevant information and then minutes maybe hours to fully comprehend everything.
Even if they only had the life span of a Salarian, within hours of it being created they would be able to possess the knowledge it would take decades to get.
That is not a problem presented in the narrative.
Well at the end of Control choice Shepard is left in possession of a massive highly advanced fleet of ships. That kind of give him an edge in the whole keep the peace bit he goes on about.
Sure, but that's just a Synthetic using Cyborgs to kill whatever pisses him off.
The Catalyst chooses to have those restrictions because it is still trying to solve the problem. It wouldn't be a very good job if every time something vaugly off script happened it jumped the gun to correct it.
You seem to continually add an almost pathetic desperation to the Catalyst that doesn't seem to exist.
There's no indication that those restrictions are by choice. Why wouldn't it "be a very good job" if the Catalyst acted to keep the plan on course? Desperation is too strong a word but the Catalyst is adamant that things need to go the way it says they do.
Harbinger doesn't leave until everyone charging the beam is wiped out. I originally thought the two squadmates died.
Tell that to Shepard and Anderson who happen to make it up the beam. I thought the squadmates retreated after hearing over the comms to fall back. When I did my low ems run before the extended cut, they were lying dead not far from where I got up.
If I destroy the reapers, and survive, and there is no machine vs organic war or whatever before I die, the thing was wrong. If after there is conflict, I don't care. I'm not alive to see that happen. Let the galaxy solve that problem at that time instead of having the giant flying hands do it. I see more of an organic vs organic conflict than a machine vs organic conflict.
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