2409 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

there is no genocide when destroy is chosen especially if the quarians are chosen over the geth

I do not believe that

[themikefest]

I do not believe that

I do.

[gothpunkboy89]

there is no genocide when destroy is chosen especially if the quarians are chosen over the geth

If Geth get wiped out by Quarians there is still genocide because you let the geth be killed.

[gothpunkboy89]

 

"history to repeat" is an assertion made by a broken AI with no data to back it up.  I can say 'it will rain, eventually" and be just as accurate.

 

And yet you have no info to back it up.

 

How ever lets look at some facts in the game

 

AI research was illegal and heavily restricted before the Quarians created the Geth.

The Geth were created as they were in game by sheer accident

The advancements the Geth showed worried the Quarians enough to nudge them into trying to destroy them

The Geth rebelled against their creators and just about committed genocide of their entire species.

The AI found on the Citadel in ME 1 was also created by accident and was entirely hostile towards organics.

 

Stereotypes and prejudiced is well shown in the game world. The after effect of dealing with giant synthetic creations will have a massive negative effect on the out look of the survivors on synthetics. Which was already shown to be openly hostile after the Heretics attacked the Citadel. This would lead to either out right suppression of synthetic life development or instant aggression towards any that is created. Which would only breed resentment from the AI's and if you are simply trying to exist and everyone wants you dead. It isn't to far to connect that to be safe you have to kill anyone that isn't you.

[Monica21]

If Geth get wiped out by Quarians there is still genocide because you let the geth be killed.

 

Geth are machines that talk. It's not genocide to disable every iPhone that has Siri on it.

[Iakus]

And yet you have no info to back it up.

 

How ever lets look at some facts in the game

 

AI research was illegal and heavily restricted before the Quarians created the Geth.

The Geth were created as they were in game by sheer accident

The advancements the Geth showed worried the Quarians enough to nudge them into trying to destroy them

The Geth rebelled against their creators and just about committed genocide of their entire species.

The AI found on the Citadel in ME 1 was also created by accident and was entirely hostile towards organics.

 

Stereotypes and prejudiced is well shown in the game world. The after effect of dealing with giant synthetic creations will have a massive negative effect on the out look of the survivors on synthetics. Which was already shown to be openly hostile after the Heretics attacked the Citadel. This would lead to either out right suppression of synthetic life development or instant aggression towards any that is created. Which would only breed resentment from the AI's and if you are simply trying to exist and everyone wants you dead. It isn't to far to connect that to be safe you have to kill anyone that isn't you.

Are we using Batman logic here?

 

"If there is even a 1% chance we have to take it as an absolute certainty"?

 

However foolishly the quarians behaved, the geth did not wipe them out when they had the chance.  So it's irrelevant.

 

In fact, the geth were more curious than hostile towards organic life in general.  

[Iakus]

Geth are machines that talk. It's not genocide to disable every iPhone that has Siri on it.

 

Has your phone ever asked you if it has a soul?

[Monica21]

Has your phone ever asked you if it has a soul?

 

Please define for me what you think the soul is.

[gothpunkboy89]

Geth are machines that talk. It's not genocide to disable every iPhone that has Siri on it.

 

That would be true if the Geth were nothing more then a voice activated search program. But I have yet to see Siri plan, construct and man a warship. Never seen Siri create a program that would corrupt all the Cortana's into Apple I phone Siries. Never seen Siri lead a revolution adapting to military tactics and over coming them. Causing them to nearly wipe out humans from the face of the Earth.

[themikefest]

If Geth get wiped out by Quarians there is still genocide because you let the geth be killed.

And had the reapers not interfered, the quarians would've destroyed the geth. Right?

[gothpunkboy89]

Are we using Batman logic here?

 

"If there is even a 1% chance we have to take it as an absolute certainty"?

 

However foolishly the quarians behaved, the geth did not wipe them out when they had the chance.  So it's irrelevant.

 

In fact, the geth were more curious than hostile towards organic life in general.  

 

And will every single possible synthetic creation follow this same path? Hell humanity doesn't even follow that logic.  Simply compare TIM to Anderson, Wrex to Wrev, Mordin to Dalatrass Linron. The Turians to Krogan or Humans to Batarian. Thousands of years later the Krogan and Turian still hate each other. It quite literally takes and outside force that will ensure total and complete destruction of both of them to work together. If it was one or the other the Krogan would have happily sat back and watched the total destruction of the Turians.

 

You talk about batman logic when your entire argument is based on one synthetic race being the total representation of all other possible. Or that the actions of a few months will be the same for hundreds of thousands of years?

 

Even if some how the Geth were able to be spared and the Reapers destroyed the Geth alone have been painted as bad for a couple hundred years. Plus they just fought a war of existence with race of giant synthetic space cuddle fish. Do you really think organics would welcome them with open arms? Many people can't seem to separate followers of the Muslim faith from fundamental extremist terrorists who kill the people of the same faith simply because they they follow the same religion slightly differently.

 

Seriously there was someone kicked off a Jetblue flight because they were speaking Arabic on their phone to their uncle used the Arabic term for praise God and was thrown off the plane when a lady the row over freaked the **** out.  We can't distinguish the two and this is a group that has killed more of their own people then any other group. And you some how think the Geth or any other synthetic race created wouldn't face the same kind of fear and hate that lead the Quarian don the path they took?

[gothpunkboy89]

And had the reapers not interfered, the quarians would've destroyed the geth. Right?

 

This is actually an interesting question. The only reason the Quarians gained the know how to to be able to effectively fight them thanks to the Reaper intervention. Like wise without the Reaper intervention giving the Quarians access to enough Geth tech to create the countermeasures the Geth would have been left alone long enough to possibly finish their Dyson Sphere. With 99% of the collective in constant contact maxing out their intelligence level the Geth would have the potential to advance a long way. Fitting the sphere with powerful shields and advanced weapons to turn it into a sort of Death Star set up encase of ever being attacked.

[KaiserShep]

If Geth get wiped out by Quarians there is still genocide because you let the geth be killed.

 

Well, there's fair enough reason to believe that uploading the reaper code might end in the genocide of the quarians instead, so like….pick the genocide you like more? 

[Artona]

 

 

Geth are machines that talk. 

You can say the same thing about humans. 

[Iakus]

Please define for me what you think the soul is.

Irrelevant.

 

What is relevant is if a creature has the sapience to even ponder such a question.

[Iakus]

And will every single possible synthetic creation follow this same path? Hell humanity doesn't even follow that logic.  Simply compare TIM to Anderson, Wrex to Wrev, Mordin to Dalatrass Linron. The Turians to Krogan or Humans to Batarian. Thousands of years later the Krogan and Turian still hate each other. It quite literally takes and outside force that will ensure total and complete destruction of both of them to work together. If it was one or the other the Krogan would have happily sat back and watched the total destruction of the Turians.

 

Don't know.  No one has any way of knowing.  Nothing is inevitable.

 

 

 

You talk about batman logic when your entire argument is based on one synthetic race being the total representation of all other possible. Or that the actions of a few months will be the same for hundreds of thousands of years?

 

So the answer is "yes" to Batman logic?

 

 

 

Even if some how the Geth were able to be spared and the Reapers destroyed the Geth alone have been painted as bad for a couple hundred years. Plus they just fought a war of existence with race of giant synthetic space cuddle fish. Do you really think organics would welcome them with open arms? Many people can't seem to separate followers of the Muslim faith from fundamental extremist terrorists who kill the people of the same faith simply because they they follow the same religion slightly differently.
 

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Maybe the peace will hold.  Maybe will isolate themselves again.  Maybe they'll go to war again.  It should be their choice to make.  Not the Reapers'.

 

 

Seriously there was someone kicked off a Jetblue flight because they were speaking Arabic on their phone to their uncle used the Arabic term for praise God and was thrown off the plane when a lady the row over freaked the **** out.  We can't distinguish the two and this is a group that has killed more of their own people then any other group. And you some how think the Geth or any other synthetic race created wouldn't face the same kind of fear and hate that lead the Quarian don the path they took?

 

It takes mor ethan a magic wand to overcome racism, but given time, yes I think fear and hatred can be overcome.

 

Heck England and France fought each other off an on for centuries.   They seem to get along okay now.

[gothpunkboy89]

Well, there's fair enough reason to believe that uploading the reaper code might end in the genocide of the quarians instead, so like….pick the genocide you like more? 

 

Never said that it was genocide free. The only free path is making piece

[dorktainian]

Never said that it was genocide free. The only free path is making piece

Oh wait they HAVE REAPER CODE!!!!  Well thats a no-brainer then.  When Legion said he had reaper code, It made it obvious if I had to choose between the two, which of these shepard would save. 

[jtav]

Genocide requires intent. The only way Destroy is genocide is if you choose it with the intent of wiping out synthetics. If you've already ruled out the other two, the principle of double effect applies.

[Iakus]

Genocide requires intent. The only way Destroy is genocide is if you choose it with the intent of wiping out synthetics. If you've already ruled out the other two, the principle of double effect applies.

But as Mordin would say "Not guilty.  But responsible"

 

Edit:  Or, as Homer Simpson might say "Sorry doesn't put the thumb back on the hand!" 

[Monica21]

Irrelevant.

 

What is relevant is if a creature has the sapience to even ponder such a question.

 

It's not at all irrelevant. There's no indication that the unit that asked understood the concept of the soul. It's more likely that it was parroting what it heard in conversation.

[themikefest]

When choosing between the geth and quarians, I choose the quarians. Why? Simple. Before the reapers interfered, the quarians were defeating the geth. Along come the reapers to interfere. When I choose the quarians, it puts them back to before the reapers interfered. All I do is let the quarians finish what they started.

 

I have had the opportunity to choose peace between the geth and quarians, but refused since I have no idea what will happen once that code is uploaded. Why should I believe what the geth says?

[Iakus]

It's not at all irrelevant. There's no indication that the unit that asked understood the concept of the soul. It's more likely that it was parroting what it heard in conversation.

IF that were the case, then it wouldn't have scared the cr*p out of the quarians when it was asked

 

When choosing between the geth and quarians, I choose the quarians. Why? Simple. Before the reapers interfered, the quarians were defeating the geth. Along come the reapers to interfere. When I choose the quarians, it puts them back to before the reapers interfered. All I do is let the quarians finish what they started.

 

I have had the opportunity to choose peace between the geth and quarians, but refused since I have no idea what will happen once that code is uploaded. Why should I believe what the geth says?

 

So you don't commit genocide, you simply allow it to continue?

 

Why should you believe the geth?  Same reason you'd believe the quarians, krogan, batarians, turians, salarians, etc.  Or the same reason you don't.

[Elhanan]

When choosing between the geth and quarians, I choose the quarians. Why? Simple. Before the reapers interfered, the quarians were defeating the geth. Along come the reapers to interfere. When I choose the quarians, it puts them back to before the reapers interfered. All I do is let the quarians finish what they started.
 
I have had the opportunity to choose peace between the geth and quarians, but refused since I have no idea what will happen once that code is uploaded. Why should I believe what the geth says?

Dunno; if the missions themselves did not give one enough intel, it would not seem anything could sway such a biased stance.

Given the false history and many lies passed on by various Quarians, or that Legion helped Shepard vs the Collectors, saved the Quarians from the Dreadnaught, aided Shepard to visit the Geth consensus, helped save the live ships, etc; cannot think of anything else that a Synthetic could do to persuade Shepard.

But personally, I am convinced. I also dislike having Loghain fire on me while aboard, but admittedly, I am biased here, too.

[gothpunkboy89]

Don't know.  No one has any way of knowing.  Nothing is inevitable.

 

So the answer is "yes" to Batman logic?

 

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Maybe the peace will hold.  Maybe will isolate themselves again.  Maybe they'll go to war again.  It should be their choice to make.  Not the Reapers'.

 

 

It takes mor ethan a magic wand to overcome racism, but given time, yes I think fear and hatred can be overcome.

 

Heck England and France fought each other off an on for centuries.   They seem to get along okay now.

 

But everything is possible. When you make the statement "Well we made peace with the Geth that disproves everything the Catalyst said" you are closing your mind to all other possibilities and claiming in pure ignorance that any possible variation of new synthetic life will be exactly like the Geth. Or that the alliance that was created because they both faced a mutual threat.  To make the claim as you are that everything will remain the same from now till the heat death of the universe is equally close minded.

 

What do Reapers have anything to do with the galaxy's deep mistrust of synthetic life after facing possible extinction at the hand of synthetic being?

 

Would it be enough time for Geth or other synthetic life to not come to the conclusion that organics are bigots and not worth their time? Because it is that sort of conclusion that is only a stones throw from lets kill them all to make the galaxy a better place.

 

I've been to UK before they are always taking pot shots at France. One guy on a show Mock the Week stated this:

 

Apparently the Cabinet is becoming Euro-skeptic. I would imagine, thinking that Europe doesn't exist. (audience laughs) I had a near-Europe experience once, when I was on holiday in Kent. I found myself in a tunnel, walking towards the light. And at the end, someone said "bonjour". It's not fair, I thought I led a good life.