Yeah this is my reasoning. I spent a lot of time and effort into getting the Geth and the Quarians to cooperate. I'm not going to just throw all that away. I want to destroy the Reapers, just them. Of course I don't want to control them either, nor spread some stupid green stuff across the galaxy.
So that leaves me with refusing.
Really curious about why people seem to view synthesis as bad.
Also why poeople seem to view the the Reapers as "evil". When they are far from it. They do basically what we do. The only difference is they target us rather then us targeting lets say a cow.
Really curious about why people seem to view synthesis as bad.
Also why poeople seem to view the the Reapers as "evil". When they are far from it. They do basically what we do. The only difference is they target us rather then us targeting lets say a cow.
re: Synthesis: I think the problem is twofold (note that I'm in favor of Synthesis, so don't take this the wrong way):
(1) Changing everyone's biochemistry without anyone getting a say in the matter is problematic.
(2) The fact that it's favored by the Catalyst associates it uncomfortably with the Reapers.
Now, I'm fully aware that even in the original endings, it was completely clear, considering the story structure and the way things were presented to us, that it was intended to be a good ending, but that's one of the things the writers failed to get across on the emotional level.
re: Reapers: the presentation of the Reapers, and their actions, for 2.9 games conditioned everyone to see the Reapers as evil. Evidence to the contrary existed, but was sparse. The weight of that isn't overthrown that easily, especially if the one who attempts it is the antagonist.
So, while I do choose Synthesis (or Control), I understand why some others don't. Unfortunately, quite a few Destroyers seem incapable of reciprocating.
re: Reapers: the presentation of the Reapers, and their actions, for 2.9 games conditioned everyone to see the Reapers as evil. Evidence to the contrary existed, but was sparse. The weight of that isn't overthrown that easily, especially if the one who attempts it is the antagonist.
Changeing their biochemistry I don't see the issue with. Unless there is proof of dramatic shift in their personality and actions. I.E a normal every day citizen suddenly becomes a serial killer with no remorse or sympahty. Killing who ever and what ever they want when and how ever they want.
Curing the genophage even if Wrex and Eve survive doesn't mean peace for all eterntiy with the Krogan. They are still a very violent and war prone race. Lacking the dicipline and social structure of Turian/Humans. All you would need is a leader like Wreave in charge to igninite another krogan war.
Saving the Rachni Queen doesn't mean etneral peace with them. That Queen is willing to hide and help because their species is extinct without her. But that doesn't mean all her daughters will think the same. All it will take is one sour yellow note to cause another Rachni War.
These choices follow the exact same logic as the synthesis options. I don't find people complaining about those choices much if at all. Though that is just my personal experinces.
The Catalyst was created with the sole intent by the Leviathans to solve the issue of organic VS synthetic life. Since organics had a habbit that was repated several times before Catalyst even existed and was shown to repeat during the various cycles. Organics would inevitabley create synthetics to make their life easier. Which over time would lead to them being much better and after a point rebel. Forcing organics to fight them in a literal life or death battle for existance. The Geth are more an exception to the rule then the rule.
It's purpose was to perserve organic life. So after seeing he cycle would continue it came to the only conculsion it could. To perserve organic life in the galaxy the existing ones had to be killed off. Perserving the knowlege of the species the Reapers were created. Synthesis is supported by the Catalyst because it breaks the cycle. Allowing both organic and synehtic life to coexist without the issues that would lead to one or the other trying to kill them.
I'd say only 2.5 of the game was the Reapers actually portrayed as evil. After Priority: Rannoch talking to the dieing reaper sheds a lot of light on their actions. The cointual view of them as evil is only because people want to see them as evil.
One of the things I've noticed from debates on the endings is that people who didn't have much of a problem with the endings are a lot more likely to be moral non-cognitivists or moral subjectivists. From those standpoints "Reapers are evil" isn't a very important proposition.
But they aren't evil. They are about as evil as we are when dealing with cattle or other food sourses.
We breed them and develop them along the lines we want. When they reach a certain level we slaughter them for our use. To preserve farm land for the next generation of cattle we are already cultivating.
We have hunting seasons for animals. Why? To thin their numbers to prevent them from over populating and depleating their food sourse.
Whats the difference besides one is a deer and the other is a human?
One of the things I've noticed from debates on the endings is that people who didn't have much of a problem with the endings are a lot more likely to be moral non-cognitivists or moral subjectivists. From those standpoints "Reapers are evil" isn't a very important proposition.
This aspect was never important for me since I'm actually one of those non-cognitivists. Unfortunately however, the problem transcends morality: the discrepancy between the presentation of the Reapers in 2.9 games before the ending and the Catalyst encounter results in a narrative and thematic dissonance so strong that you almost doubt you're in the same story anymore. So while "The Reapers are evil" may be an irrelevant statement, the problem persists in form of "The story tells me the Reapers are intended to be seen as evil" vs. "The Catalyst tells me they're just machines doing what they're programmed to do", and to make things worse, that the Catalyst comes across as the antagonist - not the only thing I'm sure didn't come across as intended - makes its statement suspect on the storytelling level.
So while yes, I make my decision based on the assumption that the Catalyst means what it says, I feel like I'm fighting the writers of what came before while I'm following what the writers of the ending tell me. That kind of confusion is rather unpleasant.
This aspect was never important for me since I'm actually one of those non-cognitivists. Unfortunately however, the problem transcends morality: the discrepancy between the presentation of the Reapers in 2.9 games before the ending and the Catalyst encounter results in a narrative and thematic dissonance so strong that you almost doubt you're in the same story anymore. So while "The Reapers are evil" may be an irrelevant statement, the problem persists in form of "The story tells me the Reapers are intended to be seen as evil" vs. "The Catalyst tells me they're just machines doing what they're programmed to do", and to make things worse, that the Catalyst comes across as the antagonist - not the only thing I'm sure didn't come across as intended - makes its statement suspect on the storytelling level.
So while yes, I make my decision based on the assumption that the Catalyst means what it says, I feel like I'm fighting the writers of what came before while I'm following what the writers of the ending tell me. That kind of confusion is rather unpleasant.
I assume you didn't play the Leviathan DLC did you?
Changeing their biochemistry I don't see the issue with. Unless there is proof of dramatic shift in their personality and actions. I.E a normal every day citizen suddenly becomes a serial killer with no remorse or sympahty. Killing who ever and what ever they want when and how ever they want.
Curing the genophage even if Wrex and Eve survive doesn't mean peace for all eterntiy with the Krogan. They are still a very violent and war prone race. Lacking the dicipline and social structure of Turian/Humans. All you would need is a leader like Wreave in charge to igninite another krogan war.
Saving the Rachni Queen doesn't mean etneral peace with them. That Queen is willing to hide and help because their species is extinct without her. But that doesn't mean all her daughters will think the same. All it will take is one sour yellow note to cause another Rachni War.
These choices follow the exact same logic as the synthesis options. I don't find people complaining about those choices much if at all. Though that is just my personal experinces.
There is one very important difference, though: the characters you're interacting with in those decisions have been established as at least neutral. Bakara and the Rachni queen have both convincingly established their goot intentions. If Bakara implies the krogan have learned (those who matter, anyway) and will pose no more threat to galactic civilization if you cure the genophage, you can be reasonably sure she'll at least try to make that happen.
If the Catalyst implies that people won't lose their identities after Synthesis, that's a harder pill to swallow. The ending scenario as a whole implies this, yes, but the 2.9 games before make it very reasonable to doubt it's telling you the truth, so on the thematic level of the story as a whole things are thrown into confusion.
I'd say only 2.5 of the game was the Reapers actually portrayed as evil. After Priority: Rannoch talking to the dieing reaper sheds a lot of light on their actions. The cointual view of them as evil is only because people want to see them as evil.
I say that those 2.5 games have enough weight to give people sufficient cause. Stories work on both the intellectual and the emotional level, but for most the emotional level is more important. In my old Synthesis thread, I've described the effect as follows:
"I think the main reason [for people seeing the Reapers as irredeemable cosmic horrors] is that the visual presentation of the Reapers and their minions has always been extremely one-sided. Ever since ME2 pushed the horror up to eleven, those aspects of the Reapers I would call "interesting" rather than horrific have been pushed into the background. Legion's explanations of the Reapers' nature, the conclusion that organic minds might have survived in them, the conclusion that by destroying the Reapers, we are also destroying the history of intelligent life in the galaxy and an immeasurable amount of amassed knowledge and experience encompassing millions of years – all that pales into insignificance under the emotional impact of the bodies of Scions and Banshees and the images of the Reaperization process at the Collector base."
So really, some people's negative reaction to Synthesis is quite understandable. I don't share it, you don't share it, but that doesn't mean the other side doesn't have valid points to make. We are just more willing to disregard the trilogy's dominant abomination aesthetic as a valid method to get a message across. In my case, I'm actively hostile to this kind of emotional manipulation, and that, among other things, informs my dislike for Destroy.
Both those character's are based on a few minutes of dialoge compariable with the time you spent talking with the Catalyst. Up to that point the Rachni were shown as violient creatuers that killed anything that isn't a Rachni. The Krogan both in ME1, ME2 and ME3 are shown to be overly violent species that break out into a fight over the smallest things. When you walk around Tuchunka in ME2 you hear a lot of dialoge about them wanting to fight. Each other or different species. The lead scientist goes into a rant about not being able to make weapons anymore. Feeling he is being forced against his will to devote his time to crop and other research. Hell one of the guys I think the Clan Ambassidor makes a whole speech validating the Krogan's violent past. Stating something along the lines of the older Krogan were weak. That is why they died. The stronger and by extention more violent they get the better because it means they are strong.
Quite literally the only reason why the Turians even agree to cure the Genophage is because of the Reapers attacking Palivan.And even then they had to bully the Slarians into at least not getting in the way. If the reapers would have never shown. No species in the galaxy would have seen fit to cure it due to the violent and agressive nature of the Krogan. Because for 2.9 of the trilogy they are shown in a similar light to the Reapers.
Swallowing the personality will not change is no more difficult then swollowing that the Rachni won't return to kill us. Or that the Krogan won't return for retrebution after they have sufficently repopulated and united under a single banner. And/Or will not repeat history. The entire reason for the Krogan Rebellion was their unwilling/inability to keep their population in check. Literally burning though worlds like a plauge of locusts. Till they started trying to take over worlds of other concil species. Getting aggressive when they were told to stop.
Wrex even makes a joke during Priority: Tuchunka about a lot of catching up to do. And see how fast we can pump them out.
That emotional responds makes it a bit ironic because they become worse then the reapers when they destory them. And I remember right the Destory option is highlighted as red while control is blue. The usual colors for renegade/paragon options. The fact that destorying them would mean willingly comiting genocide on hundreds if not thousands of species to save their own. Reapers don't want to destroy species they want to preserve them. So the catalyst sees that as the bad option. I think that is a better explination then he was indoctranated.
The Rachni and the krogans are known quantities, the galaxy fought them and won. And you have Javik as an independant source that the Rachni were screwed over several times to fight wrs, they actually have tno interest in. The Krogans are demilitarized completely and their superior number amount to nothing if they can´t build a warfleet. Also they are part of the galactic community for nearly 2000 years.
But well, it´s not like everyone here cures the genophage or releases the queen. The difference is that the game talks about the genophage and the rachni from day one more or less and you have a lot more info about the situation than this whole "hey, reapers aren´t genocidal maniacs, we have good reasons and evidence we never show." And the Catalyst isn´t evil, because, it was programmed to do so. Yeah, that´s nice, we shut down faulty machines that are a safety hazard. the player got enough information to decide yes/no when asked about the Rachni/Geophage thing.
The Reapers have superior numbers and technology and shown the willingness to genocide everyone, believing that they save them by storing them in Reaper form. And this whole storage system is a big unknown. As far as we know, the particular species in storage is more or less dead and they just ripped the knowledge. There is a (gestalt?) central intelligence and every Reaper bought into their agenda completely, using the same mehods, spouting the same nonsense. And well each one bows to the new master.
This "emotional manipulation" didn´t start in ME 2. Husks appeared long before Sovereign made his speech, indoctrination´s effects were shown before as well and Sovereign was a condescending arrogant jerk and this whole "we do it for your own good" only appeared in ME3 or ok, Harbinger´s last speech in ME 2. And well Saren told us that Sovereign despised his own allies.
Sorry that I don´t buy into the poor misunderstood Reapers thing, when everything the Reapers ever used was made to subjugate, destroy and process either into reaper form, as indoctrinated sleeper or as cannon fodder on the battlefield. You had no own will in reaper or husk form and they never bothered to ask if you want their awesome form of ascension or if you are interested in volunatarily working towards synthesis. They just popped up, controlled and killed everyone and made a new reaper out of organic paste.
You don´t need to slap an "evil" tag on them or being manipulated by abonimation aesthetics, to rationalize that you don´t want to be good neighbors with the dudes who made it a bllion year old habit to come out of dark space, guns blazing, only stopping after every member of every spacefaring civilization is dead and who only deigns to acknowledge you, when they are unable to kill you, yet.
Reaprs are known quantiies as well. The difference is they haven't been beaten yet.
They do save us. But in a way we don't fully understand and so we fear them and their actions. Once you learn the truth about the reapers the game takes on a much more intersting twist. And shows at least in a way the contradicotry view we have. Reapers view us the same way we view chickens. We have no issue slaughtering thousands of chickens to feed us with no remose. Yet when the reapers do the same to use we get all pissy about it. Made the final bit a lot more intersting to me. And added all the more reason to choose the synthsis option.
Reapers harvest us to preserve us and our history because time and time again orgaincs have fought wars with synethtics for the ability to even exist. Repeating the actions over and over again thoughout the endless centuries. If reapers didn't exist and synthetics won one of those comfrintations then organics would cease to exist. At least beyond a certain evolutionary development. The same way orgainic in this cycle after the geth issue and I'm sure the Protheans in Javik's time limited their synthetic developents to a certain point after their wars they managed to win.
Indotranations, husks, collectors, etc is not done out of sadistic pleasure of tormenting organics. It is done as a nessicity to ensure they can perserve them. Other wise they would be forced to wipe them out from orbit. Which would be the opposite of why they were created. Perserve organic life at all costs to prevent synthetics from killing it off.
Or to put it shortly. Orangic life is that idiot child that keeps banging it's head on the corner of the metal coffee table. Again and again and again. Reapers are the play pen that protects them from doing the same action over and over again. Synthsis is them finally giving the child the knowlege and realization to avoid the corner to prevent the head banging/death that would result from it.
Do we know anything about Reaper culture or if they have anything else to do besides harvesting? We know krogan history, how they affected planets during their height, where they come from, what it looks like today, even saw their wallpaintings, monuments and buildings.
Food that talks is not food. I am pretty sure that we dont eat chickens to merge their consciousnesses to become a chicken-human. Sapient beings that cross the stars and fire back aren´t chickens and well there are groups today who stay vegan or protest how we treat animals. theonly point I see here is that we should reevaluate how we treat animals, not that other sapient being less advanced = animal and free for the slaughter.
Which wasn´t shown and was only told to us by the catalyst. The instances we knew of were the geth who admittedly genocided their creators but then stopped and idled for 300 years with no intention of committing galactic genocide. And the Zha´til who got blasted into oblivion in the middle of the Prothean-Reaper war. The reapers eliminate synthetics before they become a threat on a galactic level. So the only cases which the Catalyst could have seen were during the Leviathan cycle and his creators admitted that it wasn´t an extinction level problem but a financial one until they built their own AI. And in between the 50k resets we have organics happily wiping out other organic races.
Nano clouds, killbots, bioweapons that put organics painlessly out of their misery.
I am pretty sure that killing the idiot child and eating it, is not the proper solution. They didn´t gave us synthesis, that was the result of the Crucible. They thought it was impossible because it can´t be forced. I seriously doubt that the Catalyst was actually intellectually superior, considering the conclusion out of that was keep on killing instead of using a dozen different methods to prevent the imaginary synthetic threat.
What does their culture have anything to do with it? If you go by culture then the Krogan, Turian and Humans should have been orbitally bombarded to death by now. As those groups are particularly agressive and war like. I certainly wouldn't want them around. Unless they were fighting for me and not against me. Which again shows an odd contradtion in how we view the universe. No one liked the Korgan nor would give them the time of day to help them because of their violent ways. Yet as soon as they are not shooting at them and are directing the agression towards a mutual enemey they are good friends.
Chickens, cows, goats, etc all talk. It isn't talk the same way we do. They have their own intellegence though it doesn't match our own. And yet we kill them for sport. Or we kill them just because we can. Yet we hold people who kill other humans in great contempt. Historically executing them or putting them in prison for life.
The catalyst has seen all. It is the collective intelegence of the Reapers. It knows of every cycle that has existed. It studied countless cycles. Watched as each one grew. As each group eventually found the Citadel. As the information was stored on it. It is to the Reapers what the Reapers are to Husks/Collectors.
They don't want to kill all organic life. They want to merge into a near immortal form to save it from it's self. And to perserve the history and knowlege of that race. But they won't go quitely or without a fight. Thus the nessesity of creating husks and such. If the Reapers wanted us dead. Earth would have been a smoking ball of rubble before Shepard would have time to get to the Citadel. The Protheans were able to orbitally bombard into nothing. And the Reapers have numbers far greater and far more advanced then they were.
The crucible was an energy booster. Basically increasing the normal out put. Thus would provide the power boost required to create the synthsis previously thought impossible. It also took uncounted cycles for the plans to be realized to their exitent. With each new cycle adding and improving what the last one came up with. No were did it say that the Catalyst was some all knowing Omnipotent AI that knows and can think of everything.
The point is that we know the krogans a lot more than the reapers. We have enough info to make a decision.
Well, and what´s the point of all this animal talk? Wanny lay down and get slaughtered or take whatever master reaper deigns to inflict upon you?
Point is, that it´s perception of what other AIs will do is very limited. There were never any AIs that were capable of wiping out organic life with the exception of the reapers themselves. They killed them before it ever happened. It can´t observe what happens if it kills the test subjects before the conclusion of the experiment. It works with data from the Leviathan cycle which is skewed by the sheer presence of a mind controlling species that controls everyone.
As I said, they were using that stuff from day one and it wasn´t something that was introduced in ME 2 to manipulate the players into thinking of the Reapers as the bad guys. That was pretty clear after Sovereign´s speech and that they were capable of taking your body or your mind just as they wanted to achieve their goal, which turned out to be "store your DNA because that´s the same as you being alive."
And in the end organics had to transport a thing which is "little more than a power source," so Mr Superintelligence could realize "oh, that´s the problem" and then need to persuade an organic to do it. I am not sure if the Catalyst had more problems wrapping its head around the fact that it needs more power or that one volunteer would have been enough. It blocked the way to its preferred solution by its own actions. Ok mistakes happen, but why should we push the synthesis button just because the AI with very limited thought processes* thinks that´s the best solution? As far as we know, it could be totally wrong and it doesn´t show anthing to back up its claims.
Anyways there are several theories about the exact relationship between Crucible and Catalyst, it´s not really so clear how important the part "little more" is actually. The Catalyst probably didn´t offer destroy because it felt like committing assisted suicide is the answer to the conflict between organics and synthetics from its PoV.
*seems to be smart in certain ways but has big problems thinking outside the box.
My logical reason for not choosing Destroy is simple, Shep destroys the infinite knowledge which the Reapers possess and assures the coming of technological singularity. Oh but the Geth and the Quarians are bff now! Well sure they are, at least for a decade or a century. It is a temporary peace, the Geth or some other future created AI will inevitably enter into a conflict with some organic race and they will win the war.
Destroy is the worst ending bar Refusal imho.
The only "logical choice" is installing MEHEM.
I'm gonna have to start investing in a mod capable PC soon. I'd really LOVE to have that attached to my game. Shepard alive with love interest, no catalyst, some lines from Harbinger, good stuff.
Your entire basis of argument is based on "have we beaten them" which is a very instering basis. So what if we pulled the Korgan version of the Genophage on the Reapers? They were beaten, we knew just what to do, they were well within range of no longer existing and the Catalyst brought up using synthisis to solve the issues it has seen and to allow peace between every group for all eternity?
Eternal peace because we understand each other? That´s a good joke. Unless synthesis turns everyone into some kind of collective hivemind, that´s rather unlikely. Let´s say everyone understands each other like they are from the same species. Then take a look on current day Earth.
BTW the council system worked pretty good. Two big wars and one genocide event in 2000 years, no big war in the last millenium is an awesome track record compared to what we were able to accomplish. Still needs improvement of course
And sry but the reapers should have started talking as soon as they found out that synthesis can´t be forced instead of switching to default behaviour. Taking a gift from the dudes who accomplished wiping out starfaring civilizations for a billion years doesn´t sound like a good idea. At least they should have turned over their "data" to see why they thought it´s a bright idea, instead of simply saying so and asking us for blind faith in their supreme processing capacity. As I said it sems that they are really bad at thinking outside beaten paths.
I went destroy on my first playthrough. This time I was debating synthesis because I do like the Geth and EDI. But I just read the novels and now I'm more against synthesis because
I'll probably always go destroy, unless I can ever do a renegade playthrough then I'd probably go control.
I see control as the 'evil' choice.
Synth as a neutral but exactly what the reapers want
Destroy as paragon despite Geth and EDI
Eternal peace because we understand each other? That´s a good joke. Unless synthesis turns everyone into some kind of collective hivemind, that´s rather unlikely. Let´s say everyone understands each other like they are from the same species. Then take a look on current day Earth.
BTW the council system worked pretty good. Two big wars and one genocide event in 2000 years, no big war in the last millenium is an awesome track record compared to what we were able to accomplish. Still needs improvement of course
And sry but the reapers should have started talking as soon as they found out that synthesis can´t be forced instead of switching to default behaviour. Taking a gift from the dudes who accomplished wiping out starfaring civilizations for a billion years doesn´t sound like a good idea. At least they should have turned over their "data" to see why they thought it´s a bright idea, instead of simply saying so and asking us for blind faith in their supreme processing capacity. As I said it sems that they are really bad at thinking outside beaten paths.
But it isn't a joke. Peace can't be gained now because so many put pride or personal opinion above facts. It is a running theme in the game. The Bararians are completely based on this bit. The council in ME1/2 do this. Only finally giving in during ME3 when they have literally no choice but to accept the facts. The Illusive Man falls into this as well particularly in the 3rd game. Were his personal pride and opinion about his ability to control the reapers hampers more then helps the cause.
Synthetics are different. They value facts above all else. To the point of rendering emotions as pointless in a way. Geth as example when the heratics wanted to leave the consisens they let them go without issue. No hatred for them. Hence why Legion was suprised that the Heratics were montioring the Geth. When Legion returned with the same proof as Shepard about the Reapers the Geth accepted the logic without question. And build the Geth dreadnought. Only Allying with the reapers because logic dictated that to do other wise would mean the death of all geth.
Like wise there is a massive gap between organic and synthetic when it comes to well proccessing power for lack of a better word. In the time it takes an organic to formulate an idea an AI is capapble of forming 50 different ones based on vareity of different subjects. EDI case in point can and does control the Normandy systems, fight in combat and provide cyber warfare at the same time. And organic mind could only do 1 at a time and yet she is capable of doing all 3.
It is like a full grown adult being required to take orders and advice from a 2 year old. And treat them as an equal peer.
synthesis combines those two into one being. Organics gain the thought proccess power of synthetics making them equal. Synthetis gain an understanding and motivation behind emotions. The major driving forces of organics and something that until that point they couldn't possibly hope to understand. Only emulate.
That solves the key issue between synthetics and organics.
If personal opinion vanishes, we have a hivemind. As far as we know it doesn´t disappear in synthesis. We gt to undertand each other and have access to Reaper knowledge. TIM is an example how indoctrination messes up your brain, nothing else.
Enhanced processing power leading up to more ideas is an assumption we haven´t seen in the game. It only seems to me that they are able to do the tasks they do and need someone else for outside stuff. Synthesis can´t be forced, oh ok let´s harvest again. The Catalyst is the one with a big hammer and ll problems look like nails.
And the full grown adult still needed the two year old to come up with the "more power" solution to synthesis?
Organics don´t gain synthetic processing power.
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