2390 réponses à ce sujet

[MrFob]

Alright, I don't have much time at the moment, so I'll make this as quick as possible:

 

1) Tali (at the 6:02 answer you linked): "They cannot share data or sensory information". In ME2/3 they can.

1 geth = 1 platform is not only based on how Tali refers to the geth (though as NatureGuy said, that's certainly part of it), the other is the AI description in the codex, which really doesn't allow for another way to do this. At least that was my perception for 2 years when playing ME1 and before ME2 was out. Only after the all the ME2 stuff did that perception no longer hold and to me that's a retcon of what was established about AI before. You may not agree with it, I know but that's my view.

Speed of development is still just speculation, no matter how many pages you write about it.

 

2A) Sure, it's their dream to return to their homeworld. I never denied that. That wasn't your question though.

2B ) Yea well, as has been mentioned, what you say about Tali is wrong. The rest, I still see them as divided, there definitely is no unity or they wouldn't have had to make Tali's trial such an issue.. Again, it's clear you don't agree, that's alright though.

2C) Yea, and again, whatever happens during the war as it is in the game doesn't corroborate the catalyst at all (as I stated in the post you ignored).

 

3) I am really confused as to how I didn't answer the question.

 

3) What conclusion would you come to after a nation attempted to invade your country twice?

 

[...] I'd personally feel rather ambivalent [...]

I went on in great detail about this. I know you'd like me to come to the conclusion that wiping out the opposition is the only viable course of action but I am just not as much of a war monger. I seriously would rather die myself (with my whole nation if need be) than commit genocide on someone else. That's not to spite you, that's my honest opinion. I am not sure what else you want.

 

As for your new question, I've answered what I believe the geth would do in my last post.

 

Alright, I hope that's the last clarification that's need on this, we are really just reading water with this since a page or so. I'm ready to move on.

[Natureguy85]

But the Legion you see in ME3 is his backup version before he met Shepard if he died in ME2. Isn't it not?

 

In looking up some Youtube videos, I think you're right. It's even the same physical platform. How the Geth get it back I don't know, but this seems like an excuse to be lazy and use the same model for both characters. It will tell Shepard its last memory is being shot on Eden Prime. On the one hand, it seems weird that it didn't commune with the network more often, but Legion says in ME2 that its platform was designed to be its own network.

 

But the question remains, is that VI still Legion without the latter's experiences?

[gothpunkboy89]

@Mr. Fob

 

1. Your statement is contradicted by Tali later in the same conversation. When the Quarians attempted to deactivate the Geth under the hopes that most were just machines incapable of organized resistance. Which was later found to be false as the Geth and Quarians fought a long and bloody war. To have an organized resistance and to wage a war against an organized force they to would need to be able to communicate with each other. Including sharing sensory information like sight and sound.  Your stance on this subject makes no sense and coming from someone who has on multiple occasions called out Bioware for adding stuff that makes no sense this seems a bit contradictory. Particularly since the question that statement is in responds to is if the Geth are a group mind. AKA a singular consciousness inhabiting multiple bodies. The Borg from Star Trek is a good example of that a singular consciousness inhabiting the bodies of the various Borg. The Rachni also make good in game examples because each hive is controlled by the Queen. Many different workers all sharing the same consciousness as the Queen as she directs them in their work.  Without the Queen to direct them they become much more primitive and feral. Engaging in actions more similar to wild animals then a race that is capable of understanding the Mass Effect technology. 

 

They lack and continue to lack the ability to share sensory data in real time with each other just like we lack that ability to. But 10 tv screens with 10 different shows on and would wouldn't be able to follow them all at the same time. That would be sensory over load for us and the Geth.

 

So I will ask this fairly simply are you containing the stance that the Geth would be incapable of even basic communication? Do to the fact that communication of any kind involves the sharing of data.

 

Not as speculative as you think once you realize this simple fact about how the Geth operate and how things would be distributed around their territory. Pretty sure the Dyson Sphere wasn't sitting at the edge of Geth space for anyone to pass by and see. 

 

2. A) But to retake the world would require the near complete destruction of the Geth to prevent any possible revenge against the Quarians. Who in the process of retaking their home world would require them killing a lot of Geth. Which you can't expect the Geth to take that without some sort of responds.

 

2B) What I said about Tali is correct. If she is exiled and no Legion her only issue with the war is not sure if the Quarians are strong enough. Only if she is an Admiral with Legion does she worry if the war should happen. Actively admitting that she tired to prevent the war when you meet with Legion compared to the other reaction were she claims Legion might have planned all of this. The trial existed because someone had to take the fall for her father's actions. One of the Admirals reactive Geth in the fleet wiping out everyone on the ship. They would demand answers for that and they would pick Tali as obvious fall girl since she supplied him the parts. This is known as covering your ass in a panic.

 

2C) No the actions are rather important because it shows the sense of aggression or desperation the Quarians feel against the Geth. This ties into my previous statement of Reaper or no Reapers the Quarians and Geth would have entered a second conflict possibly resulting the complete destruction of one or possibly both races. If the Geth one it would only enhance the view they are dangerous by the rest of the galaxy.  Simple cause and effect stuff here.

 

3) You claim you would rather die now. Self preservation kicking in is a whole other story.  You still doesn't actually answer anything because you are ignoring the cause effect again. Quarians attack the Geth again. Geth kill them and organics hate and fear them even more. The complete destruction of an entire race would not be ignored by the rest of the Galaxy. Inevitably they would go against the Geth. Requiring the Geth to defend themselves and either be killed or slowly wipe out the rest of the organic life in the galaxy.

[Natureguy85]

And yet the only reason she is against the war is because she doesn't think they are strong enough. And again is a willing participant in the war.  If exiled and  no Legion. Doing everything they ask her to do. Her only hesitation is she doesn't think they can pull it off.

 

As admiral with Legion she is firmly against it and does every thing she can to try and stop the war and bring peace between the two. Every action against her will she is forced into due to lack of support on the Admiralty Board.  Is hesitant because she thinks they shouldn't do it. Not if they could or not.

 

So yea Tali if exiled with no Legion supports the war. If the Quarians were stronger she wouldn't have any qualms about taking them on. Because that clip you shared doesn't show Tali questioning the morality of the war. Only the logistics. Admiral Tali with Legion questions both logistic and morality of the war.

 

Tali is against the war either way. You claimed she wasn't. That she wants to return to the Homeworld was never in question.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Tali is against the war either way. You claimed she wasn't. That she wants to return to the Homeworld was never in question.

 

I think we all know how this works:

 

[MrFob]

@gothpunkboy89: I think after this at least I am done here.

!) I never claimed that they cannot communicate at all. In my previous posts, I made the comment that I think they cannot share data (ok, I should have spelled out direct sensory data perhaps). I still think this was how it was described in ME1. This no longer seems the case in ME2/3.

2A) Wanting the home world back =/= wanting to wipe out all geth for the sake of it.

2B) Whatever you want to believe, you may believe it.

2C) Just go back 2 or 3 posts, I wrote all my replies to this already.

3) This one is the kicker. Now, you say that my answer is basically wrong because self preservation -> genocide. I can see no situation (in ME or anywhere else), where those two things belong together. Fight back, defend, counter attack and defeat, yes, genocide, no. Besides, now you simply say that what I am saying about myself is wrong. I'm afraid there is no basis for a discussion with you, sorry.

[angol fear]

No, I say "show, don't tell" because the image is a lot more valuable.  Now there will be times where it makes sense to simply "tell" for expediency or for minor details., but if a character is going to make plot relevant claims, those claims need to either be validated by the plot or they need to be rejected. ME3 does neither. Instead it makes claims that were not set up by the plot and the protagonist does not give a strong argument against them or take control of the situation from the antagonist.

 

Then you have to explain how image is more valuable than word, because it's wrong. I've already explained why (not the same rythm, not the same way to read, not the same way the reader reads it...). It's not as simple as words vs image.

Anyway, are you sure you are talking about "show, don't tell"? When I read your example it's obvious that your "show, don't tell" is more "show explicitly things" ("not set up by the plot" while what the catalyst talks about is in the trilogy). And what does the "protagonist does not give a strong argument" has to do with "Show, don't tell"?. You seem to tell more what you want the game to be than to talk about the writing in order to say what is supposed to be wrong. We are talking about "Show, don't tell".

[gothpunkboy89]

Tali is against the war either way. You claimed she wasn't. That she wants to return to the Homeworld was never in question.

 

For different reasons and those reasons are the key. If you ignore the reasons you ignore the motive for her actions. If the Quarians were stronger Exiled Tali wouldn't be against it. If Quarians were stronger Admiral Tali would still be against it.

[Artona]

 

The fact that Bioware made the choice to introduce the synthetic vs organic conflict and make it centralized to the entire Reaper mythos.

 

Okay. You really don't see difference between:
a) character IN THE SETTING SAYS x
there is x in the setting
c) developer/writer/director SAYS "I want to introduce x into the setting".
 
Just because CHARACTER SAYS SOMETHING, it doesn' mean IT IS IN THE SETTING. Just because DEVELOPER SAYS THEY WANTED TO INTRODUCE SOMETHING, it doesn't mean IT IS IN THE SETTING. Just because SOMETHING IS IN THE SETTING, it doesn't mean CHARACTER SAYS IT IS IN THE SETTING.

So, protip:

JUST BECAUSE CATALYST SAYS THERE IS UNAVOIDABLE CONFLICT, IT DOESN'T MEAN THERE IS ONE - just like Voldemort in Harry Potter books' talking about "love has no power" doesn't mean it is true.
JUST BECAUSE DEVELOPERS WANTED TO INTRODUCE SOMETHING, IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY SUCCEEDED - just like Adam Sandler's INTENTION of making "Pixels" funny DOESN'T MAKE THEM FUNNY.

Okay?

 

 

ME1 and 2 we know what, when, where but we don't know who or why to their actions.  They even bring up the fact on Thessia even Protheans see the repeat patterns of development. Each time the harvest happens the same set ups follow time and time again. They only remove species that have advanced to a certain point. They don't seed planets with life forms they don't harvest everyone. Yet the pattern continues to repeat it self time and time again.

 

Read what I wrote about phlogiston, because clearly you didn't.

As for the Protheans - you said yourself they can be wrong, right?

 

 

 

Catalyst is much proof of unavoidable conflict as the fact that we humans are armed to the teeth to levels ridiculously beyond anything needed to defend ourselves from nature. Why do any nation, state or tiny providence on this planet have some form of standing army? Why do the more developed nations have and continue to develop and advance weapons that are capable of destruction on such a massive scale you could almost call it divine retribution. But more importantly why does even a single solitary gun outside of hunting exist in the ME universe? Why was the Destiny Ascension even created in the first place? Why did TIM ever create Cerberus? Why does the Salarian STG even exist? Why do the Turians maintain the largest standing army in the galaxy?  Why has it become a stereotype that Asari are always either strippers or guns for hire when they are in their maiden years?

 

 

You're just talking about things that have nothing to do with topic and pretend they somehow prove your point. Yeah! How did Tyson Fury won with Vladimir Klitschko, if there is no organics vs synthetics conflict?! How did Geralt fell in love with Yennefer, if there is no organics vs synthetics conflict, huh?!

 

 

Thane even has a little unquie dialoge in ME 2 if you talk to the VI on Zakera Ward. While talking to Avina on level 26 of the Zakera Ward on the Citadel, Shepard may ask how the problem of poverty on the ward can be solved. Avina will state that, according to asari futurists, poverty cannot be eliminated without Cornucopia technology, which Thane refutes by saying, "Technology cannot cure greed."

 

As above.

 

 

No conflict with the Geth started when the Quarians instigated a war with them that lead to their near extinction as well as turning them into the pariahs of the galaxy.  Turning them into gyps stereotype but in space. This caused anger and resentment for the Quarians all directed at the Geth. With or without Reaper intervention the Quarians would have taken on the Geth again in an attempt to retake their home world. It was only a matter of time. Geth already chose isolation and enforced it by killing any ship that gets into their range. They only spared the Quarians because they were unsure of the repercussion of wiping out an entire race. How ever another completely unprovoked attack by the Quarians would alter that idea very quickly. Remember there are 2 Geth you can interact with in ME3. The Organic friendly Geth if Legion survived ME2. And the suspicious, paranoid and pretty sure Organics will screw them over Geth if Legion is never activated or dies in ME2. Guess which Geth would exist if the Reapers never existed. It isn't the friendly one you get thanks to Legion.

 

Yeah, because crusader kings still try to retake Holy Jerusalem... Oh, wait.
Yeah, because Native Americans still wage wars against "pale faces" to retake their land... Oh, wait.
Yeah, because pope still struggles to have power over secular governments in the christian world... Oh, wait.

Yeah, because Mexico still tries to get Texax back... Oh, wait.

Another protip: just because something happened, it doesn't mean it will happen again and again. There is NO REASON for next admiral to say "screw, let get us some nice new world, away from geth".

 

 

Yes class struggle is real. There are many examples of workers going on strike over working conditions and things turning violent to the point the police or some of their military force is called into restore order. The US has plenty of examples of this happening in it's history. As well as a continuing history of companies and corporations treating workers with the bare minimum care needed by law. And firing people at the drop of a hat if they so much as disagree with someone high enough on the totem pole. Because they can create bullshit reasons and you have no way to use any proof against it.  He said she said and they can afford the lawyer fees. Because you know people that don't make more then 20K a year don't exactly have a lot of surplus money laying around.

 

Once again, you are unprecise and sloppy with terms. No, sorry, class struggle isn't real - because it's not a FACT, but INTERPRETATION. You can call, for an instance, Great French Revolution "class struggle" - or "uprising against holy order of things", or hegelian "zeistgeist", if you will. It's part of system of belief you use to interpret what you cognize.

 

 

Sovereign shows a high degree of arrogance but I would expect that considering what it is.

You've got to be kidding me. HE CLEARLY CONTRADITCS THE CATALYST. HE. CLEARLY. CONTRADICTS. THE CATALYST. He is LYING, or he is MISTAKEN. Tertium non datur.

 

 

Sovereign shows a high degree of arrogance but I would expect that considering what it is. The no beginning and no ends fits with that arrogant statement because it has existed for so long that beginning has no meaning anymore. And because it's body is near indestructible it will under normal circumstances exist until the death of the universe. It is an impossibility for people to comprehend that their deaths are needed.

 

What the hell? You think people here are morons? "No beginning no end" is fitting, because "beginning has no meaning anymore"? What kind of pathetic, ridiculous, sloppy sophistry is that? IT IS A LIE.
And how can it's body be "near indestructible", since mission in ME2 when we meet Legion takes place on DERELICT REAPER? What, Sovereing doesn't know about it as well?
And remark of "people cannot comprehend that their death are needed" is so insultingly stupid I won't even respond. Yeah! Because frickin' Boromir had no idea that his death is needed to save hobbits, right?! Soldiers HAVE NO IDEA that there may be need for them to sacrifice!

God.

 

 

The Protheans would have inadvertently created something else as well.

 

Sure thing, oh mighty prophet.

 

 

So you pull outside facts and ideology to defend your point about conflict not being an inevitability. But now you jump both feet into what the game says with the last point. Can you please pick a side and stick with it. Because first you are against the Reapers and Catalyst claiming conflict is inevitable but then you are fully with them claiming the Citadel and Mass Relays. They can not be wrong about one statement yet 100% correct about another statement. When both are 100% reliant on the ideology that history repeats it self.

 

I know it's cool and fun to bark some accusation with no context, but until you quote me "pulling outside facts and ideology" I won't bother. And how in the hell civilisations developing the way Reapers desire proves Synthetics vs Organics conflict?


 

[gothpunkboy89]

@gothpunkboy89: I think after this at least I am done here.

!) I never claimed that they cannot communicate at all. In my previous posts, I made the comment that I think they cannot share data (ok, I should have spelled out direct sensory data perhaps). I still think this was how it was described in ME1. This no longer seems the case in ME2/3.

2A) Wanting the home world back =/= wanting to wipe out all geth for the sake of it.

2B) Whatever you want to believe, you may believe it.

2C) Just go back 2 or 3 posts, I wrote all my replies to this already.

3) This one is the kicker. Now, you say that my answer is basically wrong because self preservation -> genocide. I can see no situation (in ME or anywhere else), where those two things belong together. Fight back, defend, counter attack and defeat, yes, genocide, no. Besides, now you simply say that what I am saying about myself is wrong. I'm afraid there is no basis for a discussion with you, sorry.

 

1) Communication is the sharing of sensory data. As is the showing of photos, videos or audio recordings. Lets also not forget Tali admits to the Quarians being wrong about the Geth being able to organize and that is has been nearly 300 years since then and the Quarians have had no contact minus a few skirmishes.  Maybe this is just me assuming people are smarter then they actually are but that is a fairly large sign this information we are given about the Geth is fairly out of date. Maybe people aren't as smart as I think they are and would see this and rather stubbornly stick to the idea that this is 130% fact that the Geth are incapable of sharing photos with each other.  Until the next game and be incapable of making the connection that it was a retcon using the basis of Quarian ignorance of what the Geth fully became both before and after their war. Thus showing that information was inherently false and not actually having any effect on the over all story line of the Geth.

 

2A) Why would the Geth keep the home world in the first place? To retake the home world would require killing off or attempting to kill off a large number of Geth units. I seem to remember the Quarians taking shots at their Dyson sphere even though it wasn't anything close to their planet. At threat to their existence the Geth would respond with equal force. Retaking the home world would only be first step. Eventually the Quarians would want to retake their lost territories which would again lead them into a turf war with the Geth. The Quarians while disliked by many citizens of the galaxy were at least tolerated as they traveled the stars in their Flotila. The Geth how ever are not tolerated they are feared and hated. Even if the Geth don't need food or water like Quarians they still need fuel and raw materials to repair, and power their space stations. This would but them in contact with other organic life who doesn't like them very much more often then not. Were their current place affords them access to the fuel and materials they need without coming into contact with organic life that operates on a shoot Geth first ask questions later logic.

 

2B) Her only complaint was that the Quarians don't have enough guns. Not if the war is justified or not. One only care about the number of guns the Quarians have the other questions the morality of the fight thinking there is a chance for peace if they just give it a chance.

 

2C)Which I'm sure was "Yes they did instigate a war against the Geth during a galaxy wide invasion threatening the very existence of everyone in it. This does in fact show a high degree of aggression from the Quarians towards the Geth or a high degree of desperation to escape their slowly crumbling fleet onto something more solid and isn't at risk of depressurizes at the slightest bump"

 

3) If one side fights till everyone is dead that is still the killing off of an entire group. If the fight ends with them retreating but have taken so many losses they can't keep a stabilized population that eventually dies off that is still killing off an entire group. The Quarians lived with nearly 100% of the population on this very ships they used to go to war with. If the Geth wiped out all but 1/4th of the Fleet and let them leave not only would the Quarian population be horribly reduced to a fraction of it's already small amount. But depending on what ships were not blow up they run into issues of being able to support themselves as well as space to increase the population.  Thus the slow decline of the Quarians till they finally die off completely.

 

Self preservation is one of the strongest instincts build into the organic mind. Sitting at your computer and claiming you would do X instead when put in that position. Lets just say on this facet of human nature I don't accept empty words but proof of this claim.

[Abelas Forever!]

Interesting. It refers to itself as a 'reconstruction of a unique intelligence network' (Legion?). Also it says "We are not Legion" because it has no memory of being called Legion... What doesn't make sense is that it doesn't have memories of Eden Prime. Why didn't Geth back up their software more frequently? It would be a great idea that the Geth VI is indeed a pre-ME1 backup of Legion but IMO Bioware did a poor job of explaining that or establishing it as a different network.

 

 

Maybe making a backup wasn't easy thing to do and it had to be done in a certain place and Legion never went there after making its first backup or it for some reason failed to make a backup of himself after he had left his homeworld. However I think the reason more likely is that it was easier to bring back dead Legion when it didn't remember anything that had happened to him after it had left its homeworld.

 

 

 

I never thought that the Geth VI wouldn't be Legion For me he has always been Legion's old backup.

 

 

The hypothetical situtaion this is set in is no Reaper's exist in this universe. The Quarians attempted their second War with the Geth and were defeated. 

 

But weren't you trying prove that logically the next step in preserving themselves is that Geth will try to wipe all the Quarians? I was just pointing out that this might not be the case. There is no proof that Geth would want to wipe out all the Quarians. They will do it to protect themselves but the situation is more like the Quarians go to their homeworld to be wiped out instead that the Geth will wipe them out on purpose.

 

 

 

 

 

Geth can archive data like memories the same way you would archive memories though photos, videos and journals. They can not back up entire Geth how ever. Legion VI is more equivlent to finding another person who looks similar to you and had them read diaries you left behind to learn the basics about you. It is never stated that I'm aware of anyways that Geth are capable of reproduction.

 

Is there any proof that Geth are not capable of a making a copy of themselves and store that data as a backup? Because it wouldn't be that far-fetched that they would be capable of storing that data because of  their nature. All they need to do is to store their thought patterns in somewhere like they store all the other data.

 

 

 

 

If they are then your statement would hold true and valid. If the Geth are not capable of reproducing themselves then with each Geth lost they slowly become less and less intelligent. In a conflict with organics this would be a very slow death for them. Like getting a paper cut and slowly bleeding to death because you have no way to clot the cut.

 

 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that Geth are not making new Geths? Anyway it doesn't matter whether my statement is true or not because  it has nothing do with Geth reproduction. There can still be backups of them and they can still make new Geth.

[Abelas Forever!]

In looking up some Youtube videos, I think you're right. It's even the same physical platform. How the Geth get it back I don't know, but this seems like an excuse to be lazy and use the same model for both characters. It will tell Shepard its last memory is being shot on Eden Prime. On the one hand, it seems weird that it didn't commune with the network more often, but Legion says in ME2 that its platform was designed to be its own network.

 

But the question remains, is that VI still Legion without the latter's experiences?

To me it is Legion. It just never had experiences with Shepard that seemed to have a huge impact on it such as it chose a name for itself. For example I would still be me if I had different life experiences. I might be totally different person but in the end I would still be me. That is how I see Legion and to me its name Legion just describes this familiar Geth best.

[gothpunkboy89]

But weren't you trying prove that logically the next step in preserving themselves is that Geth will try to wipe all the Quarians? I was just pointing out that this might not be the case. There is no proof that Geth would want to wipe out all the Quarians. They will do it to protect themselves but the situation is more like the Quarians go to their homeworld to be wiped out instead that the Geth will wipe them out on purpose.

 

 

 

Is there any proof that Geth are not capable of a making a copy of themselves and store that data as a backup? Because it wouldn't be that far-fetched that they would be capable of storing that data because of  their nature. All they need to do is to store their thought patterns in somewhere like they store all the other data.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that Geth are not making new Geths? Anyway it doesn't matter whether my statement is true or not because  it has nothing do with Geth reproduction. There can still be backups of them and they can still make new Geth.

 

The over all point I am making or was before a bit of side tracking with Mr Fob and little details. Is that the Geth Quarian conflict echos the very conflict the Catalyst is talking about. The actions of the Reapers altered the series of events that would have normally taken place. Giving a common enemy for all races organic or synthetic to unite against or suffer mutual destruction. Without the Reapers existing the Quarians would have stilled attacked the Geth out of desperation if not out of aggression. The Geth in return would defend themselves against the Quarians leading to their out right extinction if not making it so they can never fully recover by killing off nearly all of their already small numbers.  Two completely unprovoked attacks would cause the Geth to realize that isolation isn't enough. That organics are not to be trusted and the only way the Geth will be free to develop is if they do it by force. 

 

Remember there are 2 different Geth during Priority Rannoch. The organic friendly one with legion and the mistrustful, suspicious one without Legion. No Reapers means no Legion to be sent out to find Shepard.

 

The Geth increasing their military specifically to be prepared encase of another attack causing a panic among organics. Who also start to increase their military might. A single spark then ignites the war between them some one most likely organic attempts a sneak attack which sparks the Geth to respond resulting in full out war. Now the results of that war could end multiple ways. In space I find the Geth have a clear advantage. Their lack of bodies needed besides for repair means their armor can be thicker, their shields can be more powerful and they can set weapons up that might be a bit more dangerous for Organic's to use.  On the ground I find it to be about even in terms of abilities.  How ever the Geth can mass produce mobile platforms while replacing trained soldiers is a lot harder for organic's to do.  On the flip side compared to a true AI the Geth are 100% reliant on each other for maintaining intelligence above what you would expect from a child. Either way the conflict would result in millions of deaths on both sides before being finished.

 

They are capable of creating archives of their memories but an archive that information isn't the same as being able to create an entire duplicate of themselves. This is where is sort of breaks down from a science to a philosophy perspective. If I died and was cloned and the clone had all my memories and experiences imprinted on it so it looked, sounded and acted like me. Is the clone a separate individual or not?  Will the clone go on to do exactly what I would have done originally or would it go it's own path?

 

The game never seems to hint that the Geth are capable of programing new Geth units into existence. They would be able to save their experiences but the Geth's over all intelligence is heavily tied to how many active Geth units there are working together. If they can not replace the Geth units then each battle were some Geth are lost the over all possible intelligence of the Geth is reduced. If they can't reproduce then any war would lead to their eventual death. If they are capable of reproduction they have the ability to out last organics.

[gothpunkboy89]

Okay. You really don't see difference between:
a) character IN THE SETTING SAYS x
there is x in the setting
c) developer/writer/director SAYS "I want to introduce x into the setting".
 
Just because CHARACTER SAYS SOMETHING, it doesn' mean IT IS IN THE SETTING. Just because DEVELOPER SAYS THEY WANTED TO INTRODUCE SOMETHING, it doesn't mean IT IS IN THE SETTING. Just because SOMETHING IS IN THE SETTING, it doesn't mean CHARACTER SAYS IT IS IN THE SETTING.

So, protip:

JUST BECAUSE CATALYST SAYS THERE IS UNAVOIDABLE CONFLICT, IT DOESN'T MEAN THERE IS ONE - just like Voldemort in Harry Potter books' talking about "love has no power" doesn't mean it is true.
JUST BECAUSE DEVELOPERS WANTED TO INTRODUCE SOMETHING, IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY SUCCEEDED - just like Adam Sandler's INTENTION of making "Pixels" funny DOESN'T MAKE THEM FUNNY.

Okay?

 

Read what I wrote about phlogiston, because clearly you didn't.

As for the Protheans - you said yourself they can be wrong, right?

 

You're just talking about things that have nothing to do with topic and pretend they somehow prove your point. Yeah! How did Tyson Fury won with Vladimir Klitschko, if there is no organics vs synthetics conflict?! How did Geralt fell in love with Yennefer, if there is no organics vs synthetics conflict, huh?!

 

As above.

 

Yeah, because crusader kings still try to retake Holy Jerusalem... Oh, wait.
Yeah, because Native Americans still wage wars against "pale faces" to retake their land... Oh, wait.
Yeah, because pope still struggles to have power over secular governments in the christian world... Oh, wait.

Yeah, because Mexico still tries to get Texax back... Oh, wait.

Another protip: just because something happened, it doesn't mean it will happen again and again. There is NO REASON for next admiral to say "screw, let get us some nice new world, away from geth".

 

Once again, you are unprecise and sloppy with terms. No, sorry, class struggle isn't real - because it's not a FACT, but INTERPRETATION. You can call, for an instance, Great French Revolution "class struggle" - or "uprising against holy order of things", or hegelian "zeistgeist", if you will. It's part of system of belief you use to interpret what you cognize.

 

You've got to be kidding me. HE CLEARLY CONTRADITCS THE CATALYST. HE. CLEARLY. CONTRADICTS. THE CATALYST. He is LYING, or he is MISTAKEN. Tertium non datur.
 

What the hell? You think people here are morons? "No beginning no end" is fitting, because "beginning has no meaning anymore"? What kind of pathetic, ridiculous, sloppy sophistry is that? IT IS A LIE.
And how can it's body be "near indestructible", since mission in ME2 when we meet Legion takes place on DERELICT REAPER? What, Sovereing doesn't know about it as well?
And remark of "people cannot comprehend that their death are needed" is so insultingly stupid I won't even respond. Yeah! Because frickin' Boromir had no idea that his death is needed to save hobbits, right?! Soldiers HAVE NO IDEA that there may be need for them to sacrifice!

God.
 

Sure thing, oh mighty prophet.
 

I know it's cool and fun to bark some accusation with no context, but until you quote me "pulling outside facts and ideology" I won't bother. And how in the hell civilisations developing the way Reapers desire proves Synthetics vs Organics conflict?
 

 

 

The central conflict behind the Reapers and the very reason for their existence was kept vague. We know nothing of why they do what they do. We only know how they do it. They chose to make the singular purpose of the Reaper's existence and why they harvest advanced life be about the conflict between organic and synthetic life. The conflict between Quarian and Geth echo this conflict across the entire trilogy. The only reason a true is capable of being produced in game is because they face a foe that unites everyone against it. This is echoed in other actions during the final game. The Krogan and Turians hate each other with a passion that borderlines on Holy. During any other moment in history no Turian leader would ever and I mean ever even vaugly consider during the Genophage. But because of the threat level of the Reapers curing it to gain Krogan support would be a worth while trade off even if someone like Wrev is in power.

 

The phlogiston theory is a superseded scientific theory that postulated that a fire-like element called phlogiston is contained within combustible bodies and released during combustion. Doesn't really apply here. Leviathan's have no idea why it happened because they used organic being for the same purpose. Using their ability to enthrall organic beings to serve them. It is the same way the Thorian works to avoid this issue as well. Controlling organic bodies rather then creating machines to do the same work. And you can bet your bottom that would any of the Thrall races of Leviathan or the slaves of the Thorian would figure out how to break their hold and prevent it from happening they would have risen up and fought against them. This set up has repeated countless times in our own history.  The USA only exists because a group of non elected rich white land owners declared they no longer liked the crown. Convinced people using propaganda to side with them and was reliant heavily on the French who used it as an excuse to wage a proxy war with Britian.

 

Since the Thrall races lack the ability to command other being to do their bidding they had to instead focus on technology to increase the quality of their life. The cycle plays out the same way. They develop sentience and find being stuck in the servant role just as distasteful as any sentient being. They rebel and war starts. The difference is organic growth is slow. Synthetic growth is faster. If left alone long enough synthetics would be able to surpass organic's in every way shape and form. They have an advantage we lack because we create them so they don't have those same weakness.

 

You seem intelligent enough yet you missed the gun example so much I think you ignored it on purpose. It is a fact there are animal in nature that would look at us as a food source. We initially created weapons to protect us and allow us to hunt other animals for food. Yet the technology level needed to do that has long long since been surpassed. A simple bow is capable of taking down all but the largest land animal. Then we create the crossbow which is even more powerful then the bow. We create the cannon which is powerful enough to out rank anything in nature yet we continue to improve on it. Increasing accuracy, distance and damage they can deal. We at the same time miniaturize it so it fits in our hands and continue to improve the distance accuracy and damage of them till we are capable of hitting a target 2 miles away with lethal results. At the same time we increase the size of them till we are dealing with rounds the size of full grown men being loaded into over sized guns capable of punching holes in multi inch thick steel. We discover how to harness the power of the atom to create a weapon capable of dealing damage on a scale never seen before yet we continue to improve it increasing it's destructive scale to levels that now borderline on the level of divine wrath.

 

So I will ask again why do this items exist? Why did we evolve beyond bows, swords and spear which were more then capable of defending us from nature? I already gave my reason they exist because of conflict. Without conflict between humans we would have no need for such weapons. If conflict between organic and synthetic life didn't exist then neither would the Catalyst. If conflict never existed between humans then nukes wouldn't exist. 

 

Similar logic applies to the cornucopia technology as stated in the ward example. Until we live in a world were everything you need can be gained simply by asking for it conflict will exist.

 

Your real world examples don't really fit to well. To start the US and other nations are heavily involved in the Israeli- Palestinian. US a rather heavy Christian country backs Israeli mean while Palestine is backed by countries like Iran and Turkey. Which are rather heavy Muslim countries.  This is the same area that Jerusalem and other holy sites for Christian, Jew and Muslims exist in.

 

Native Americans are continue to attempt to get back their land and or preserve it from being developed on.

 

Pope still has massive diplomatic and cultural influences. So much so that one Pope was able to convince the Nazi's they didn't have a problem with them. While at the same time going behind their back to save countless lives from them. Not to mention for Catholics particularly ones that heavily follow their religion the Pope is basically God's representative on Earth. The spiritual successor to Peter who is believed to have been given the keys to heaven by Jesus.

 

Loss of a few miles of land really doesn't compare to the loss of your entire planet and colonies. Now if every citizen of Mexico was forced to live on Pre WW1 ships as well as any decommissioned ones that were sold off and forced to travel port to port to get supplies. Then maybe your statement would hold more water.

 

The Quarians were desperate enough to attack the Geth during a Reaper invasion. While there is never a good time for a war that is defiantly not a good time. 90% of their population lives on the very ships they armed and sent into battle against the Geth. The right ships get destroyed and it can be massive chunks of their population lost as well as their ability to be even semi self sufficient.

 

So class struggle isn't real? So there aren't people who work minimum wage jobs demanding better treatment? There aren't complaint moments were workers walk out and picket their job locations to receive better benefits or less strenuous hours? Everyone is happen with cooperation cutting hours, reducing if not removing full time positions and replacing it with part time. Were they don't have to pay or even give you vacations like full time is entitled to. Everyone is happy when wealthy people make asinine statements like implying people choose to be poor because they aren't working hard enough?

 

Yea how does Sovereign contradict the Catalyst? Why is it you state something then don't actually back up that statement with supporting facts. Please act a bit like an adult I get the feeling I'm dealing with a child when you state " Well your wrong" without actually stating why. That is stuff children do or people who are pouting with no real argument. This also applies to the next statement about no beginning or end. They have existed for eons.  Stars are formed and last a finite amount of time. How ever the time they are capable of lasting is so long it loses meaning of it. The Sun has existed before there was even the most basic single cell life on this planet. Billions of years ago and will continue to exist for another billion or so years. The time frame is so vast that it loses all meaning. The same applies to the Reapers. If each cycle ends with the birth of a single Reaper then the ending screen shows hundreds if not thousands of Reapers. If each cycle averages 50,000 years. For a thousand Reapers to exist would require 50,000,000 years to have passed. Their beginnings are so long ago the term loses meaning at a certain point.

 

Near immortal because under normal circumstances they will not die. They can be killed though out side means but if left alone the Reapers are capable of repairing and maintaining themselves in the same condition as when they were new. If we work under the concept of there are 1,000 Reapers in existance that mean Harbinger is over 50 million years old. Yet shows no signs of aging in that time. Much in the same way Elrond is an elf and despite being 6,000 years old he doesn't look any older then a 40 year old man.  In fact your LotR example fits perfectly with this. Elves are beings who have an infinite time span in life. They can not die of old age yet they are capable of being killed if someone stabs them in the heart. Just like Reapers are capable of living forever unless someone blows a massive hole in their body.

 

So your telling me soldiers would willingly let themselves be rounded up and killed? Civilians would willingly march towards gas chambers to be killed? There is a rather big difference between dying for a cause you think will help those you leave behind and willing marching into a meat grinder so people you don't know and will never see will get a chance to live a better life.

 

Or if we use a more contemporary example Religion has been and continues to be used to validate wars and bigotry time and time again. If tomorrow we tried to mandate the complete removal of all religion from the world to prevent this from happening. It would be met with resistance from a lot of people. And this isn't even involving loss of life just loss of an idea. If you stepped this up and stated that every heavily religious person also had to be put to death to prevent the sort of fundamental extremism that time and time again causes conflict the resistance would be increased. Erupting into out right war if it already hasn't.

 

The irony of you complaining about barking stuff out with no context when you do the exact same thing. First you claim that conflict between synthetic and organic isn't unavoidable. Then you claim that it is unavoidable that organic life will develop along very specific paths thanks to the Reapers. There are only so many paths that can be taken and when dealing with the mass effect technology that the Reapers leave behind. There can't be more then 1 way to defy the laws of physics.  The ability to control the mass of the object at will is a very specific set up that I would love to hear possible other ways to do that. Now do the Reapers leave behind items that allow races to advance at speeds they would normally not be capable of? Yes. Do they lock those races into an unavoidable singular path? Not so much. So do you see were I am coming from in this area? To claim one this isn't unavoidable yet another one is even though they are similar in the set up make no sense.

[Natureguy85]

@Mr. Fob

 

1. Your statement is contradicted by Tali later in the same conversation. When the Quarians attempted to deactivate the Geth under the hopes that most were just machines incapable of organized resistance. Which was later found to be false as the Geth and Quarians fought a long and bloody war. To have an organized resistance and to wage a war against an organized force they to would need to be able to communicate with each other. Including sharing sensory information like sight and sound.  Your stance on this subject makes no sense and coming from someone who has on multiple occasions called out Bioware for adding stuff that makes no sense this seems a bit contradictory. Particularly since the question that statement is in responds to is if the Geth are a group mind. AKA a singular consciousness inhabiting multiple bodies. The Borg from Star Trek is a good example of that a singular consciousness inhabiting the bodies of the various Borg. The Rachni also make good in game examples because each hive is controlled by the Queen. Many different workers all sharing the same consciousness as the Queen as she directs them in their work.  Without the Queen to direct them they become much more primitive and feral. Engaging in actions more similar to wild animals then a race that is capable of understanding the Mass Effect technology. 

 

 

 

They lack and continue to lack the ability to share sensory data in real time with each other just like we lack that ability to. But 10 tv screens with 10 different shows on and would wouldn't be able to follow them all at the same time. That would be sensory over load for us and the Geth.

 

I think your first description of what Tali means by the Geth not being able to share sensory data is correct. However, you later say this:

 

 

1) Communication is the sharing of sensory data. As is the showing of photos, videos or audio recordings.

 

That is contradictory and false. As you said yourself, viewing a picture is not the same as having seen the actual content of the picture. That said, being robots with computer brains, the Geth may be able to download a memory as if they themselves experienced it, similar to the Matrix allows people to sense virtual surroundings as if they were real.

 

 

 

 

2B) What I said about Tali is correct. If she is exiled and no Legion her only issue with the war is not sure if the Quarians are strong enough. Only if she is an Admiral with Legion does she worry if the war should happen. Actively admitting that she tired to prevent the war when you meet with Legion compared to the other reaction were she claims Legion might have planned all of this. The trial existed because someone had to take the fall for her father's actions. One of the Admirals reactive Geth in the fleet wiping out everyone on the ship. They would demand answers for that and they would pick Tali as obvious fall girl since she supplied him the parts. This is known as covering your ass in a panic.

 

 

For different reasons and those reasons are the key. If you ignore the reasons you ignore the motive for her actions. If the Quarians were stronger Exiled Tali wouldn't be against it. If Quarians were stronger Admiral Tali would still be against it.

 

 

You said Tali will support the war under some circumstances and that isn't true. She always refers to it as "this stupid war." Yes, her motivations are different but that isn't what you said and I don't know what your point is there. Remember, Tali will argue for and against retaking Rannoch on the Alarai, depending on what Shepard says.

 

You're just wrong on Tali's trial. Tali wasn't there to take the fall for what happened on the Alarai. She was there because Koris wanted to set an example for anyone else who might push or prepare for war. It was pure internal Admiralty Board politics.

 

 

 

 Maybe this is just me assuming people are smarter then they actually are but that is a fairly large sign this information we are given about the Geth is fairly out of date. Maybe people aren't as smart as I think they are and would see this and rather stubbornly stick to the idea that this is 130% fact that the Geth are incapable of sharing photos with each other.  Until the next game and be incapable of making the connection that it was a retcon using the basis of Quarian ignorance of what the Geth fully became both before and after their war. Thus showing that information was inherently false and not actually having any effect on the over all story line of the Geth.

 

This needs to stop. The only person who isn't as smart as you think they are is you. That's been demonstrated over and over.

 

You even refer to the change in the Geth as a retcon and then explain why it isn't one. If the Geth were always as they are in ME2, then its a retcon. If they changed over time and Tali's ME1 description was right originally, then it's not a retcon.

 

 

 

2A) Why would the Geth keep the home world in the first place?

 

Good question. Even Legion isn't sure.

 

 

 

 

Eventually the Quarians would want to retake their lost territories which would again lead them into a turf war with the Geth.

 

This already happened. They backed the Geth up to Rannoch, where they made their last stand and got the upgrades.

 

 

 

 

 The Geth how ever are not tolerated they are feared and hated. Even if the Geth don't need food or water like Quarians they still need fuel and raw materials to repair, and power their space stations. This would but them in contact with other organic life who doesn't like them very much more often then not. Were their current place affords them access to the fuel and materials they need without coming into contact with organic life that operates on a shoot Geth first ask questions later logic.

 

Not necessarily. The setting is an entire galaxy. They could likely find a place to be alone. The rachni do until the Reapers find them.

 

 

The over all point I am making or was before a bit of side tracking with Mr Fob and little details. Is that the Geth Quarian conflict echos the very conflict the Catalyst is talking about. The actions of the Reapers altered the series of events that would have normally taken place. Giving a common enemy for all races organic or synthetic to unite against or suffer mutual destruction. Without the Reapers existing the Quarians would have stilled attacked the Geth out of desperation if not out of aggression. The Geth in return would defend themselves against the Quarians leading to their out right extinction if not making it so they can never fully recover by killing off nearly all of their already small numbers.  Two completely unprovoked attacks would cause the Geth to realize that isolation isn't enough. That organics are not to be trusted and the only way the Geth will be free to develop is if they do it by force. 

 

If it does, it shows a self fulfilling prophecy. As I said before, the Reapers have their fingers on the scale. If anything is inevitable, it is because "society develops along paths we desire." The Reapers push civilizations toward the fate they claim to be saving them from.

 

You don't know what the Quarians would have done. Their Admiralty board was divided, though the pro-war side seemed to have the edge,  but with different motivations in that group. However, as you, again, said yourself, the Quarians attack because of the opportunity presented by the Reaper invasion. Without that, we don't know how it would have played out. You don't know what the Geth would do either. That's all speculation. It could be right, but you don't know.

 

 

They are capable of creating archives of their memories but an archive that information isn't the same as being able to create an entire duplicate of themselves. This is where is sort of breaks down from a science to a philosophy perspective. If I died and was cloned and the clone had all my memories and experiences imprinted on it so it looked, sounded and acted like me. Is the clone a separate individual or not?  Will the clone go on to do exactly what I would have done originally or would it go it's own path?

 

The game never seems to hint that the Geth are capable of programing new Geth units into existence. They would be able to save their experiences but the Geth's over all intelligence is heavily tied to how many active Geth units there are working together. If they can not replace the Geth units then each battle were some Geth are lost the over all possible intelligence of the Geth is reduced. If they can't reproduce then any war would lead to their eventual death. If they are capable of reproduction they have the ability to out last organics.

 

Finally! Some real thought into a comment. Yes, this is the very question posed by the Geth existence and this arc. As someone pointed out to me, it is present with Grunt being introduced to the Krogan as well. What makes a person?

[BloodyMares]

 

They are capable of creating archives of their memories but an archive that information isn't the same as being able to create an entire duplicate of themselves. This is where is sort of breaks down from a science to a philosophy perspective. If I died and was cloned and the clone had all my memories and experiences imprinted on it so it looked, sounded and acted like me. Is the clone a separate individual or not?  Will the clone go on to do exactly what I would have done originally or would it go it's own path?

 

Yes, if the clone has all your memories prior to you being cloned (and therefore experience, feelings etc) then he becomes you and acts exactly like you would because of your memories and equal mental capacity of the brain. We are what we see, what we experience, what we feel. But it won't become you in a sense that your consciousness is bound to your body and your clone has a separate consciousness. If I die and then my memories were put into a clone the clone will become me to outside world but I won't be alive to experience it because the clone doesn't work as an avatar for my consciousness. Geth however are not bound to their platform. They are software. They are the closest thing to a concept of a soul that can transcend a body (software that host platforms and then return to their servers). They can basically leave their platform and upload themselves to another source. Isn't that immortality? 

[gothpunkboy89]

Yes, if the clone has all your memories prior to you being cloned (and therefore experience, feelings etc) then he becomes you and acts exactly like you would because of your memories and equal mental capacity of the brain. We are what we see, what we experience, what we feel. But it won't become you in a sense that your consciousness is bound to your body and your clone has a separate consciousness. If I die and then my memories were put into a clone the clone will become me to outside world but I won't be alive to experience it because the clone doesn't work as an avatar for my consciousness. Geth however are not bound to their platform. They are software. They are the closest thing to a concept of a soul that can transcend a body (software that host platforms and then return to their servers). They can basically leave their platform and upload themselves to another source. Isn't that immortality? 

 

Every source it can upload to needs to be compatible with their software. And if there is no signal to transfer out of or they lack excess hardware to store them they can be destroyed.

 

Legion is fairly good examples of what seems to be the limitations of Geth's archival data. During ME2 it is split on on the choice to over right or destroy the heretic base. Even though all those Geth have the exact same experiences they still come to different conclusions. As well Legion is confirmed to be dead by another Geth even though between ME2 and ME3 it would have created archives of it's experiences to share with the Geth.

[Abelas Forever!]

The over all point I am making or was before a bit of side tracking with Mr Fob and little details. Is that the Geth Quarian conflict echos the very conflict the Catalyst is talking about. The actions of the Reapers altered the series of events that would have normally taken place. Giving a common enemy for all races organic or synthetic to unite against or suffer mutual destruction. Without the Reapers existing the Quarians would have stilled attacked the Geth out of desperation if not out of aggression. The Geth in return would defend themselves against the Quarians leading to their out right extinction if not making it so they can never fully recover by killing off nearly all of their already small numbers.  Two completely unprovoked attacks would cause the Geth to realize that isolation isn't enough. That organics are not to be trusted and the only way the Geth will be free to develop is if they do it by force. 

 

Remember there are 2 different Geth during Priority Rannoch. The organic friendly one with legion and the mistrustful, suspicious one without Legion. No Reapers means no Legion to be sent out to find Shepard.

I don't think that the Quarian Geth war echos the conflict which Catalyst is talking about because Quarians decided to fight against the Geth which can lead to extinction of Quarians but the original problem was that the synthetics wiped out the organics. Synthetics were most likely the aggressive party in the conflict. This situation is different.

Is there any proof that two unprovoked attacks will cause the Geth to make a decision to wipe out all the Quarians?

 

Also this cycle is different than other cycles because the organics decided to fight together.

 

 

 

The Geth increasing their military specifically to be prepared encase of another attack causing a panic among organics. Who also start to increase their military might. A single spark then ignites the war between them some one most likely organic attempts a sneak attack which sparks the Geth to respond resulting in full out war. Now the results of that war could end multiple ways. In space I find the Geth have a clear advantage. Their lack of bodies needed besides for repair means their armor can be thicker, their shields can be more powerful and they can set weapons up that might be a bit more dangerous for Organic's to use.  On the ground I find it to be about even in terms of abilities.  How ever the Geth can mass produce mobile platforms while replacing trained soldiers is a lot harder for organic's to do.  On the flip side compared to a true AI the Geth are 100% reliant on each other for maintaining intelligence above what you would expect from a child. Either way the conflict would result in millions of deaths on both sides before being finished.

 

If organics would start panicking woulnd't it mean that it would unite the organics and they would wipe all the Geth? I mean if the reapers wouldn't have shown up the Quarians would have won and if there would have been more organics in the war then wouldn't that mean that they would have won?

 

 

 

They are capable of creating archives of their memories but an archive that information isn't the same as being able to create an entire duplicate of themselves. This is where is sort of breaks down from a science to a philosophy perspective. If I died and was cloned and the clone had all my memories and experiences imprinted on it so it looked, sounded and acted like me. Is the clone a separate individual or not?  Will the clone go on to do exactly what I would have done originally or would it go it's own path?

 

What is a Geth? Geth consist of multiple programs that run simultaneously. They also don't need a platform. They are still Geth without it. So what is a human? Humans are tied to their body. Their mental process happens in their brain. I'm not very familiar how exactly does that happen but I believe it requires different kinds of hormones etc. to work. So if your memories are put into another brain but that brain isn't yours then that person isn't you unless the brain and the body is the exact copy of your body. Geth don't have this kind of restrictions. The way it thinks can be stored as code somewhere as a backup and if the Geth is brought back by using this backup then that Geth is the same unit or units if they decide to make more Geth from this single backup like it was before making the backup.
 

 

 

 

The game never seems to hint that the Geth are capable of programing new Geth units into existence. They would be able to save their experiences but the Geth's over all intelligence is heavily tied to how many active Geth units there are working together. If they can not replace the Geth units then each battle were some Geth are lost the over all possible intelligence of the Geth is reduced. If they can't reproduce then any war would lead to their eventual death. If they are capable of reproduction they have the ability to out last organics.

But wouldn't this mean that Geth are not really a threat to organics because their numbers diminish for good each time somebody kills a Geth? So the quarians should have just concentrated in killing separated Geths and eventually they would have won.

[Natureguy85]

Yeah, because Mexico still tries to get Texax back... Oh, wait.
 

 

Hey, that one is actually happening, it's just not by military invasion. I enjoyed that post but I do have one recommendation from Wally.

 

 

 

To me it is Legion. It just never had experiences with Shepard that seemed to have a huge impact on it such as it chose a name for itself. For example I would still be me if I had different life experiences. I might be totally different person but in the end I would still be me. That is how I see Legion and to me its name Legion just describes this familiar Geth best.

 

It seems like you have an answer for yourself, but my point was only to raise the question. One of the themes running through the entire Geth arc, and actually also pops up with Grunt, is "What is a person?" Is Grunt a "real Krogan?" Are Geth people before or after upgrades? Is EDI a person? Is Legion "Legion" without Legion's experiences? The people we are today are shaped by our experiences.
 

The place they didn't really explore this was where it was most important: "Is resurrected Shepard really Shepard?"

[gothpunkboy89]

I don't think that the Quarian Geth war echos the conflict which Catalyst is talking about because Quarians decided to fight against the Geth which can lead to extinction of Quarians but the original problem was that the synthetics wiped out the organics. Synthetics were most likely the aggressive party in the conflict. This situation is different.

Is there any proof that two unprovoked attacks will cause the Geth to make a decision to wipe out all the Quarians?

 

Also this cycle is different than other cycles because the organics decided to fight together.

 

If organics would start panicking woulnd't it mean that it would unite the organics and they would wipe all the Geth? I mean if the reapers wouldn't have shown up the Quarians would have won and if there would have been more organics in the war then wouldn't that mean that they would have won?

 

 

What is a Geth? Geth consist of multiple programs that run simultaneously. They also don't need a platform. They are still Geth without it. So what is a human? Humans are tied to their body. Their mental process happens in their brain. I'm not very familiar how exactly does that happen but I believe it requires different kinds of hormones etc. to work. So if your memories are put into another brain but that brain isn't yours then that person isn't you unless the brain and the body is the exact copy of your body. Geth don't have this kind of restrictions. The way it thinks can be stored as code somewhere as a backup and if the Geth is brought back by using this backup then that Geth is the same unit or units if they decide to make more Geth from this single backup like it was before making the backup.
 

 

But wouldn't this mean that Geth are not really a threat to organics because their numbers diminish for good each time somebody kills a Geth? So the quarians should have just concentrated in killing separated Geths and eventually they would have won.

 

 

Prothean's forcibly united all Organic's under their empire before the Reaper's invaded. Once they did invade all organic's work together to fight against them. The only real difference between the in game and Prothean is the fact different races follow different military doctrine rather then a universal one. AKA Krogan and Turian prefer head on brute force actions. Asari prefer hit and run/assassinations, Humans mobile strike forces, Salarians are more spies and saboteurs and Quarians...well they are tech and supplies.

 

There is never any indication of who instigates the conflict. Neither Catalyst nor Leviathan give a hint as to who started the fight how ever they both saw the same conclusion. Least nothing I have ever seen seems to state one side or the other is the sole aggressor. How ever the results are the same massive loss of life as well as many times the creator race being completely wiped out by their synthetic creations.

 

The proof is the actions of the Geth during Priority Rannoch. Even if you portray yourself as the most Geth friendly Shepard possible Legion continues to withhold information till the last minute. Legion doesn't fully trust Shepard and particularly doesn't vaugly trust the Quarians. And this is a best case set up. Without Legion leaving the consensus and without it meeting Shepard even that semi trust that is shown towards an organic will not exist. The Geth after defeating the Quarians chose to kill every diplomat the council sent to them. More then likely all they wanted was to just state Ok you stay on your side and we will leave you alone as long as you do the same on our side. They continue to kill without question any non Geth ships that enter their space for centuries.  The Legion VI aka the Geth's back up copy of Legion that lacks all of it's memories with organics if it was killed in final mission. Will out right claim they knew they couldn't trust organics if you choose Quarians over Geth. Legion is equally angry at your choice but never jumps to the can't trust organic's bit. Simply claims this isn't justice and that Shepard has no right to dictate the future of it's race.  If you side with Legion VI it states that it was skeptical until that point.

 

This all points out that Geth trust organics about as far as they drop them to the ground. I can't even use the saying as far as they can throw them because I'm sure a Prime could toss a human a fair distance. A second Quarian attack would only confirm their suspicions particularly after they choose willingly to isolate themselves hoping to avoid conflict with their Creators or other organic life.  They might not attack right away but they would certainly build up their military power just encase. In game we already saw what power a single Geth Dreadnought could do now picture a dozen or even 2 dozen of them. That kind of military build up would not be ignored by everyone else in the galaxy.

 

Quarians are only put in a position to win thanks to Reapers. They lead the Heretics out to be killed allowing Tali and other Quarians to be able to salvage their tech at levels they could never have hoped to do before. I'm not saying that it would play out in the same time frame as shown in the game going in ~5 years time from having no hope to thinking they can take them on. 

 

As for Geth vs All Organics is another story dependent on a lot of factors. It could be years or decades before anything would happen which would give the Geth the chance to build a massive fleet and since they are not limited by the same Treaty the rest of the Council races agreed to they can freely make as many dreadnoughts as they want.  As well lets be honest here if the Geth really and I mean really wanted to kill off organics they would be more then capable of doing it. Since they do not need for and air they could orbital bombard the planet or simply launch large asteroids at inhabited planets. Even if the Geth ultimately lost they would be capable of massive irreparable damage.

 

Geth are a software program in the most simplistic description of them. How ever each program is capable of developing it's own view on things. Legion in ME2 despite the same 1k programs being in the shell and seeing the exact same thing were split on should they rewrite or destroy the heretics. Everything that is shown how ever in game seems more closer to the Geth living their existence though the eyes of a camcorder. They have the ability to archive and save that video recording and upload it to a Geth version of youtube. Were other Geth can watch it and learn from it. But ultimately making their own decisions.

[Natureguy85]

The central conflict behind the Reapers and the very reason for their existence was kept vague. We know nothing of why they do what they do. We only know how they do it. They chose to make the singular purpose of the Reaper's existence and why they harvest advanced life be about the conflict between organic and synthetic life. The conflict between Quarian and Geth echo this conflict across the entire trilogy. The only reason a true is capable of being produced in game is because they face a foe that unites everyone against it. This is echoed in other actions during the final game. The Krogan and Turians hate each other with a passion that borderlines on Holy. During any other moment in history no Turian leader would ever and I mean ever even vaugly consider during the Genophage. But because of the threat level of the Reapers curing it to gain Krogan support would be a worth while trade off even if someone like Wrev is in power.

 

Exactly. The stronger theme is overcoming old conflicts and old hatreds to come together and fight a common foe. The Quarian/Geth conflict is only one example of that. It isn't given prominence over the Genophage story. Both are central to events in the first game. As is constantly pointed out, there is nothing special about Synthetic vs Organic conflict. It pops up here and there, but is only one of the several major threads in the series. That's why it's strange for this to suddenly be the primary issue stretching back billions of years. Worse, we're told that the Reapers that are the Synthetics killing Organics are actually not the problem but the solution.

 

 

 

 

The phlogiston theory is a superseded scientific theory that postulated that a fire-like element called phlogiston is contained within combustible bodies and released during combustion. Doesn't really apply here. Leviathan's have no idea why it happened because they used organic being for the same purpose. Using their ability to enthrall organic beings to serve them. It is the same way the Thorian works to avoid this issue as well. Controlling organic bodies rather then creating machines to do the same work. And you can bet your bottom that would any of the Thrall races of Leviathan or the slaves of the Thorian would figure out how to break their hold and prevent it from happening they would have risen up and fought against them. This set up has repeated countless times in our own history.  The USA only exists because a group of non elected rich white land owners declared they no longer liked the crown. Convinced people using propaganda to side with them and was reliant heavily on the French who used it as an excuse to wage a proxy war with Britian.

 

You know, you could have just left it at the USA rebelling against Britain and had an example, but then you have to show your ignorance of history, plus some modern day racist class warfare. The Founders were elected or appointed by elected officials in the colonies. They weren't just random guys that got together. Much of the population was with them, though obviously not all, or they wouldn't have been able to field an army. And yes, they needed help from the French to defeat the most powerful military on the planet.

 

 

 

Since the Thrall races lack the ability to command other being to do their bidding they had to instead focus on technology to increase the quality of their life. The cycle plays out the same way. They develop sentience and find being stuck in the servant role just as distasteful as any sentient being. They rebel and war starts. The difference is organic growth is slow. Synthetic growth is faster. If left alone long enough synthetics would be able to surpass organic's in every way shape and form. They have an advantage we lack because we create them so they don't have those same weakness.

 

That's not even what happens in the games. The Geth wanted to keep serving; they just wanted to stay active. They rebelled against aggression and violence, not servitude. This is a bad habit you have.

 

 

 

You seem intelligent enough yet you missed the gun example so much I think you ignored it on purpose. It is a fact there are animal in nature that would look at us as a food source. We initially created weapons to protect us and allow us to hunt other animals for food. Yet the technology level needed to do that has long long since been surpassed. A simple bow is capable of taking down all but the largest land animal. Then we create the crossbow which is even more powerful then the bow. We create the cannon which is powerful enough to out rank anything in nature yet we continue to improve on it. Increasing accuracy, distance and damage they can deal. We at the same time miniaturize it so it fits in our hands and continue to improve the distance accuracy and damage of them till we are capable of hitting a target 2 miles away with lethal results. At the same time we increase the size of them till we are dealing with rounds the size of full grown men being loaded into over sized guns capable of punching holes in multi inch thick steel. We discover how to harness the power of the atom to create a weapon capable of dealing damage on a scale never seen before yet we continue to improve it increasing it's destructive scale to levels that now borderline on the level of divine wrath.

 

So I will ask again why do this items exist? Why did we evolve beyond bows, swords and spear which were more then capable of defending us from nature? I already gave my reason they exist because of conflict. Without conflict between humans we would have no need for such weapons. If conflict between organic and synthetic life didn't exist then neither would the Catalyst. If conflict never existed between humans then nukes wouldn't exist.

 

Yet the Catalyst exists not because of conflict generally, but because of one specific type of conflict with a specific claimed outcome. As your own example shows and has been repeated multiple times, there is nothing special about organic vs synthetic conflict.

 

 

 

Similar logic applies to the cornucopia technology as stated in the ward example. Until we live in a world were everything you need can be gained simply by asking for it conflict will exist.

 

There's no indication that happens in Synthesis. What about conflict between Synthesized people?

 

 

 

 

So class struggle isn't real? So there aren't people who work minimum wage jobs demanding better treatment? There aren't complaint moments were workers walk out and picket their job locations to receive better benefits or less strenuous hours? Everyone is happen with cooperation cutting hours, reducing if not removing full time positions and replacing it with part time. Were they don't have to pay or even give you vacations like full time is entitled to. Everyone is happy when wealthy people make asinine statements like implying people choose to be poor because they aren't working hard enough?

 

Those things aren't "class struggle." I don't make a ton of money and I'm looking for something else to do, perhaps going back to school to learn more, not sitting around complaining that somebody else owes me something. Some people aren't working hard enough. Minimum worth jobs get minimum wage. If you want to make more, get another job.  Those other actions by companies are pushed by government action, like the laughably titled Affordable Healthcare Act. Now, it might be more true in more despotic countries like North Korea where the ruling class does fine while the citizens eat worms.

 

 

 

Yea how does Sovereign contradict the Catalyst? Why is it you state something then don't actually back up that statement with supporting facts. Please act a bit like an adult I get the feeling I'm dealing with a child when you state " Well your wrong" without actually stating why. That is stuff children do or people who are pouting with no real argument. This also applies to the next statement about no beginning or end. They have existed for eons.  Stars are formed and last a finite amount of time. How ever the time they are capable of lasting is so long it loses meaning of it. The Sun has existed before there was even the most basic single cell life on this planet. Billions of years ago and will continue to exist for another billion or so years. The time frame is so vast that it loses all meaning. The same applies to the Reapers. If each cycle ends with the birth of a single Reaper then the ending screen shows hundreds if not thousands of Reapers. If each cycle averages 50,000 years. For a thousand Reapers to exist would require 50,000,000 years to have passed. Their beginnings are so long ago the term loses meaning at a certain point.

 

Near immortal because under normal circumstances they will not die. They can be killed though out side means but if left alone the Reapers are capable of repairing and maintaining themselves in the same condition as when they were new. If we work under the concept of there are 1,000 Reapers in existance that mean Harbinger is over 50 million years old. Yet shows no signs of aging in that time. Much in the same way Elrond is an elf and despite being 6,000 years old he doesn't look any older then a 40 year old man.  In fact your LotR example fits perfectly with this. Elves are beings who have an infinite time span in life. They can not die of old age yet they are capable of being killed if someone stabs them in the heart. Just like Reapers are capable of living forever unless someone blows a massive hole in their body.

 

Considering this is one of the few times you've been right about anything, the condescension is unwarranted. The pot is calling the kettle black again.

 

 

 

 

So your telling me soldiers would willingly let themselves be rounded up and killed? Civilians would willingly march towards gas chambers to be killed? There is a rather big difference between dying for a cause you think will help those you leave behind and willing marching into a meat grinder so people you don't know and will never see will get a chance to live a better life.

 

Or if we use a more contemporary example Religion has been and continues to be used to validate wars and bigotry time and time again. If tomorrow we tried to mandate the complete removal of all religion from the world to prevent this from happening. It would be met with resistance from a lot of people. And this isn't even involving loss of life just loss of an idea. If you stepped this up and stated that every heavily religious person also had to be put to death to prevent the sort of fundamental extremism that time and time again causes conflict the resistance would be increased. Erupting into out right war if it already hasn't.

 

Of course their is a difference. The former makes sense while the latter does not, especially when the person proposing it has failed to make even a slightly convincing argument as to why the deaths are necessary.

 

The reason the removal of religion would be met with resistance is that governments that do so tend to kill a lot of their people.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ural_Revolution

 

https://en.wikipedia...paign_(1928–41)

 

 

 

 

The irony of you complaining about barking stuff out with no context when you do the exact same thing. First you claim that conflict between synthetic and organic isn't unavoidable. Then you claim that it is unavoidable that organic life will develop along very specific paths thanks to the Reapers. There are only so many paths that can be taken and when dealing with the mass effect technology that the Reapers leave behind. There can't be more then 1 way to defy the laws of physics.  The ability to control the mass of the object at will is a very specific set up that I would love to hear possible other ways to do that. Now do the Reapers leave behind items that allow races to advance at speeds they would normally not be capable of? Yes. Do they lock those races into an unavoidable singular path? Not so much. So do you see were I am coming from in this area? To claim one this isn't unavoidable yet another one is even though they are similar in the set up make no sense.

 

Once again you're not only adding in something that isn't in the game, you're actively rejecting what is in there. Based on what do you say that there can't be more ways "to defy the laws of physics" in a fictional universe where one exists? How is allowing for one way fine but a second would break your suspension of disbelief? Legion brings up later:

 

The first minute is relevant.

 

[Natureguy85]

The proof is the actions of the Geth during Priority Rannoch. Even if you portray yourself as the most Geth friendly Shepard possible Legion continues to withhold information till the last minute. Legion doesn't fully trust Shepard and particularly doesn't vaugly trust the Quarians. And this is a best case set up. Without Legion leaving the consensus and without it meeting Shepard even that semi trust that is shown towards an organic will not exist. The Geth after defeating the Quarians chose to kill every diplomat the council sent to them. More then likely all they wanted was to just state Ok you stay on your side and we will leave you alone as long as you do the same on our side. They continue to kill without question any non Geth ships that enter their space for centuries. 

 

If the Geth keep destroying every ship, how would anyone know about their military build up that you claim will spark a war? The Council hasn't acted before, so why would they suddenly do so?

 

 

 

 

This all points out that Geth trust organics about as far as they drop them to the ground. I can't even use the saying as far as they can throw them because I'm sure a Prime could toss a human a fair distance. A second Quarian attack would only confirm their suspicions particularly after they choose willingly to isolate themselves hoping to avoid conflict with their Creators or other organic life.  They might not attack right away but they would certainly build up their military power just encase. In game we already saw what power a single Geth Dreadnought could do now picture a dozen or even 2 dozen of them. That kind of military build up would not be ignored by everyone else in the galaxy.

 

I like how you realized a problem with the first statement and rather than rewrite it, wrote about how you realized there was a problem with it.  Again, if ships entering the veil are destroyed, how would anyone know about the military buildup?

 

 

Geth are a software program in the most simplistic description of them. How ever each program is capable of developing it's own view on things. Legion in ME2 despite the same 1k programs being in the shell and seeing the exact same thing were split on should they rewrite or destroy the heretics. Everything that is shown how ever in game seems more closer to the Geth living their existence though the eyes of a camcorder. They have the ability to archive and save that video recording and upload it to a Geth version of youtube. Were other Geth can watch it and learn from it. But ultimately making their own decisions.

 

The weird thing about this is that Legion will tell Shepard on the Normandy that Consensus is achieved very quickly as data is disseminated because Geth think at the speed of light. However, its programs can't come to consensus about the Heretics on the loyalty mission. I accept it for gameplay reasons, but I noticed the difference.

[Monica21]

You know, you could have just left it at the USA rebelling against Britain and had an example, but then you have to show your ignorance of history, plus some modern day racist class warfare. The Founders were elected or appointed by elected officials in the colonies. They weren't just random guys that got together. Much of the population was with them, though obviously not all, or they wouldn't have been able to field an army. And yes, they needed help from the French to defeat the most powerful military on the planet.

I mean, I'm not reading his stuff because it's on ignore, but wow. Just... wow. How does anyone forget about the 2nd Continental Congress? That's some second grade stuff right there.

[Abelas Forever!]

I mean, I'm not reading his stuff because it's on ignore, but wow. Just... wow. How does anyone forget about the 2nd Continental Congress? That's some second grade stuff right there.

I have never heard of that

[Monica21]

I have never heard of that

 

Have you never heard of it, or do you not remember it? Because if you were raised in the United States and ever had a social studies or government or US history class, then you learned about the 2nd Continental Congress. To believe that John Hancock and a couple of his buddies just got together and renounced the British is silly, especially when you consider that most of the issue they had with them was about the lack of representation.