2434 réponses à ce sujet

[StarcloudSWG]

I suggest you uninstall the Extended Cut on your version of Mass Effect 3. I suggest you play through the ending again. And I suggest you watch, CLOSELY, what happens when the wave catches up to the Normandy.

 

Specifically, watch what happens to the engines.

 

The wreck of that ship isn't going anywhere and it's a miracle that it even landed on the planet with the main hull in one piece. Note also that the scene ends with an exterior shot of the Normandy breaking apart as the wave hits it. There is nothing to say the computers remain functional after the wave passes, but with the way the rest of the sequence is blocked, the implication is that's it. There is no more. The Normandy is derelict and non-functional.

 

And this, along with galactic civilization being effectively destroyed, was indeed the original authorial intent.

[Natureguy85]

I love the music during the sequence of the Crucible firing and the buildup to the Normandy getting hit, even if some of the scenes are dumb. I feel sick when I hear the music when they exit the Normandy. I loathe that scene. They all look happy and hopeful about the planet their on. This isn't the zombie apocalypse where you're happy to find a safe have from the madness elsewhere. They are stranded from everyone they care about while civilization is being rebuilt. Joker just lost EDI in Destroy, he doesn't seem to care.

 

 

 

We already know their control is more limited in range, can be blocked, and is not permanent.

 

Don't forget that whenever someone who does have "authority" including teachers and professional authors disagrees, angol dismisses their claims as well.

 

Is it more limited in range? With the artifacts, they can project it across the galaxy. Apparently Indoctrination can be blocked too. Whatever shielding they have around the Sovereign chunk.

[themikefest]

Before the extended cut, it shows Joker in panic mode and the thrusters being torn from the fuselage. The next scene shows Joker and whoever coming out of the Normandy alive. Yeah right. They should be dead with everyone else onboard and the Normandy in pieces.

 

With the extended cut released, the thrusters are not torn from the fuselage and it shows Joker being in relax mode if ems is above 2600. The Normandy lands on its belly. Have the nameplate scene. The Normandy gets up and flies away

 

Below 2600, the scene is the same as before the extended cut is released. I like for Bioware to explain how its possible for the Normandy to be in one piece minus the thrusters and the crew surviving.

 

I have mentioned the above numerous times. I even mentioned it in the things that don't make sense thread.

[Iakus]

 

Is it more limited in range? With the artifacts, they can project it across the galaxy. Apparently Indoctrination can be blocked too. Whatever shielding they have around the Sovereign chunk.

 

Yes, but outside the range of those artifacts, indoctrination ends.

[gothpunkboy89]

I see. Let me clarify. What you discribed is not a plot. You said it yourself. It expands the game world (and retcons some of it but we won't go there). A worldbuilding. I don't deny it. It did expand our knowledge  about each species including collectors, it did establish what the harvest actually looked like. It established a bunch of colorful and interesting characters with their personal daddy issues. But what was the plot?
We have a Premise - The Collectors attack human colones.
We have a Theme - Shepard gathers people (best of the best), solves their problems and goes on a Suicide Mission. This theme is developed very well, it adds depth to each of the character.

A Plot is what happens in a story, it's a sequence of connected events that happen to our character and impact him or the characters surrounding him. It build on the Premise and answers the "why?" question. We get a little bit of that. The revelation that all these abductions happened to build a Reaper. But why did they need to build a Reaper right now? Why is human genetic diversity is so special to Reapers? Why bother building a human Reaper if they can harvest all organic life in a year? Why didn't Sovereign use Collectors to aid his plan in ME1? This plot didn't come from ME1 and it doesn't impact the sequel. It's just there. ME3 doesn't really care that you stopped the Collectors, that you saw a harvest with your own eyes, that you know the purpose behind harvest (building more Reapers). ME3 only cares that you worked with Cerberus...
 

 

Okay, a fair point. I didn't mean to dive into a gameplay territory, my bad. ME1 didn't really have choices that impact the overarching plot either. Back to the story itself. ME1 establishes what the Reapers are and why they are a threat. We get to see the might of just one of them. The story ends on Shepard looking for ways to stop them... In ME2 instead of searching for clues on how to stop or defeat the Reapers  we fool around with Collectors. Okay, an interesting story but it doesn't really go anywhere. The Reapers still invade and we don't have any intel that might help us. At least Liara wasn't wasting time and found the blueprints for Crucible plot device. From there ME3 story goes separately without acknowledging previous games (well, aside for Genophage and Quarian-Geth side stories). I don't blame ME2's plot for having no impact on the trilogy. I blame ME3. The same way I blame ME2 for making ME1 events pointless in stopping the Reapers. Each game is a nice self-contained story but they fail as a trilogy.

You are right that ME2 brings new interesting characters that you care about them in ME3. But they are non-essential to the plot. You can play ME3 regardless if they are present in the game. Sure you will miss out on their great personailities and you won't be as invested but they don't change the story, they just add flavour.
 

 

If so then what is the whole reason for making contact with Shepard? He was dying on the floor next to Anderson. If Shepard doesn't represent this cycle's organics then why is he there? If the Catalyst tells (paraphrase): "You are the first organic that has come so far" then it has to mean something, right? Why trust Shepard to solve his problem if, as you say it, organics weren't able to achieve anything without Reapers' inderect help? And if the Crucilble changes its variables why doesn't it want to listen to Shepard? It says "we think of new solution" and doesn't let Shepard to give his input. "Yeah, we'll think of new solution but you are a puny organic so you won't participate, just pick what you like best". And Shepard acting completely passive doesn't really help.

 

 

How best to explain this. Do you remember the Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy? The first movie Curse of the Black Pearl was created as it's own stand alone movie. It clearly has a beginning, middle and end of the over all plot. How ever Deadman's Chest has a beginning and and middle because it was created to have a squeal and At World's End has a middle and and end because it was set up to be the final part of it. Mass Effect Trilogy is set up rather similarly. ME 1 was created to be a stand alone game because they were not sure if it would be popular enough to have a squeal green lit. If you only played one version of the game only ME 1 would feel like it is telling a whole story. ME 2 would be lacking the ending and ME 3 wouldn't explain the start of it. Again much like the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. At World's End wouldn't explain how this all started, Dead Man's Chest wouldn't explain how it ended how ever Curse of the Black Pearl would tell a whole story. This necessitates a little bit of feet shuffling of the 2nd game to allow the 3rd one to arrive. Which is what happened.  Now if we could go back in time and tell them that their game would be so popular it would create a trilogy odds are ME 1 and 2 would have been handled a bit differently.

 

This is pretty much how Marvel has kept their movies flowing so well. They know these movies will be working together to tell one long story so once they became poplar enough to add more then a brief flash of the next move they are able to link each movie into the over all Infinity War story they are attempting to tell. Each movie tells it's own spot and are able  to pace the over all story line accordingly. But originally they created their own individual self contained stories for each movie before the popularity gained to the point they could start interconnecting them all.

 

Now as for the plot of ME 2 the Reapers wouldn't be so very effective if they left massive amounts of clues to their existence and how to beat them. Theses aren't video game bosses the choreograph their every move and leave obvious weakness for players to exploit.  Like wise claiming the events of ME 2 made the events of ME 1 pointless is a lot like claiming that dropping the bombs on Japan made every battle and solider death up to that point as pointless. Which my brother has a few Marine friends who would love to feed you your own teeth for walking up and telling them their deaths were pointless. Every part of the game trilogy has it's part to play in the over all conflict with the Reapers. ME 1 kills one and buys the galaxy more time. ME 2 you find out they are trying to replace the one you killed and stop that while at the same time seeing exactly what awaits the galaxy during and after the harvest. ME 3 shows the Reapers going for brunt attack rather then the stealth they had tried before. The over all point of this is the Reapers are suppose to represent an over whelming force that you are powerless to stop. Hence why the events of ME 1 and 2 don't seem to have much of an effect.

 

Certain events have to happen in a game to tell the story. Legion, Mordin, Grunt, etc get a replacement because they are needed to advance the story line. Again this is were it crosses over into game play territory. If Mordin dies those players being cut from being able to deal with the Genophage and everything related to Priority Tuchunka would be locked out from them. They would jump right from Priority Palavan to Priority Citadel II. This single act would render your choice to save the data or not pointless as well as your choice to talk down Wrex or not as pointless. As one character death would auto set all those choices players have to instant no Krogan support with their deaths 100% assured and have I'd say a 1/5th of the game completely bypassed. Without VI Legion the Quarians are auto dead and you get not assistance from the Geth. Without Grunt your choice to save the Rachni Queen in the first game is pointless because she is auto dead do to you needing to escape alive leaving her no time to leave. Without Thane or Salarian Captain the Councilor is auto killed and Shepard loses out on war assets from the Salarians.

 

Basically what I'm pointing out is the options and side effects of the game actually allow you freedom to play as you want rather then binding you to a very specific path if you want anything more then the worst ending and losing out on a fair amount of game play.

 

Shepard was brought up because he/she was the catalyst of the change. Thus Shepard was brought up and asked about his/her input about the possible future of the galaxy. To claim it shows organics are independent or capable of dealing with issues on their own is asinine because they are helped out all along the way. The Reaper Creator is ultimatly the one that makes their destruction even vaugly possible.

[gothpunkboy89]

I suggest you uninstall the Extended Cut on your version of Mass Effect 3. I suggest you play through the ending again. And I suggest you watch, CLOSELY, what happens when the wave catches up to the Normandy.

 

Specifically, watch what happens to the engines.

 

The wreck of that ship isn't going anywhere and it's a miracle that it even landed on the planet with the main hull in one piece. Note also that the scene ends with an exterior shot of the Normandy breaking apart as the wave hits it. There is nothing to say the computers remain functional after the wave passes, but with the way the rest of the sequence is blocked, the implication is that's it. There is no more. The Normandy is derelict and non-functional.

 

And this, along with galactic civilization being effectively destroyed, was indeed the original authorial intent.

 

I did just post a video comparing the two endings. The engines over load yes but that doesn't mean every computer bit was fried. Like wise the fact the SR-2 didn't land face first there should be a very clear impact zone and wake of destruction as the SR-2 skidded to a halt. The impact killing any on board and breaking the ship into pieces. The only possible way for the Normady to be in the condition it is in during the original Pre EC ending is if the Element Zero Core was still in tact if barely functioning and the maneuvering thrusts were still active.

 

For reference a 9 ton tungsten rod dropped from high orbit would impact the ground with 11.5 tons of TNT. SR-2 is a bit more then 9 tons and would impact with a much greater force.

[Natureguy85]

Yes, but outside the range of those artifacts, indoctrination ends.

 

Yeah. I forget who suggested it but I liked someone's idea that the damage of Indoctrination is due to the Reapers' imperfect imitation of what Leviathans do.

 

 

 

Below 2600, the scene is the same as before the extended cut is released. I like for Bioware to explain how its possible for the Normandy to be in one piece minus the thrusters and the crew surviving.

 

I handwave it this way; if the Mass Effect fields were still up, they reduce the ship's mass, which reduces momentum and therefore force of impact. So the ship can survive.

[BloodyMares]

How best to explain this. Do you remember the Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy? The first movie Curse of the Black Pearl was created as it's own stand alone movie. It clearly has a beginning, middle and end of the over all plot. How ever Deadman's Chest has a beginning and and middle because it was created to have a squeal and At World's End has a middle and and end because it was set up to be the final part of it. Mass Effect Trilogy is set up rather similarly. ME 1 was created to be a stand alone game because they were not sure if it would be popular enough to have a squeal green lit. If you only played one version of the game only ME 1 would feel like it is telling a whole story. ME 2 would be lacking the ending and ME 3 wouldn't explain the start of it. Again much like the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. At World's End wouldn't explain how this all started, Dead Man's Chest wouldn't explain how it ended how ever Curse of the Black Pearl would tell a whole story. This necessitates a little bit of feet shuffling of the 2nd game to allow the 3rd one to arrive. Which is what happened.  Now if we could go back in time and tell them that their game would be so popular it would create a trilogy odds are ME 1 and 2 would have been handled a bit differently.

 

This is pretty much how Marvel has kept their movies flowing so well. They know these movies will be working together to tell one long story so once they became poplar enough to add more then a brief flash of the next move they are able to link each movie into the over all Infinity War story they are attempting to tell. Each movie tells it's own spot and are able  to pace the over all story line accordingly. But originally they created their own individual self contained stories for each movie before the popularity gained to the point they could start interconnecting them all.

 

Now as for the plot of ME 2 the Reapers wouldn't be so very effective if they left massive amounts of clues to their existence and how to beat them. Theses aren't video game bosses the choreograph their every move and leave obvious weakness for players to exploit.  Like wise claiming the events of ME 2 made the events of ME 1 pointless is a lot like claiming that dropping the bombs on Japan made every battle and solider death up to that point as pointless. Which my brother has a few Marine friends who would love to feed you your own teeth for walking up and telling them their deaths were pointless. Every part of the game trilogy has it's part to play in the over all conflict with the Reapers. ME 1 kills one and buys the galaxy more time. ME 2 you find out they are trying to replace the one you killed and stop that while at the same time seeing exactly what awaits the galaxy during and after the harvest. ME 3 shows the Reapers going for brunt attack rather then the stealth they had tried before. The over all point of this is the Reapers are suppose to represent an over whelming force that you are powerless to stop. Hence why the events of ME 1 and 2 don't seem to have much of an effect.

 

Certain events have to happen in a game to tell the story. Legion, Mordin, Grunt, etc get a replacement because they are needed to advance the story line. Again this is were it crosses over into game play territory. If Mordin dies those players being cut from being able to deal with the Genophage and everything related to Priority Tuchunka would be locked out from them. They would jump right from Priority Palavan to Priority Citadel II. This single act would render your choice to save the data or not pointless as well as your choice to talk down Wrex or not as pointless. As one character death would auto set all those choices players have to instant no Krogan support with their deaths 100% assured and have I'd say a 1/5th of the game completely bypassed. Without VI Legion the Quarians are auto dead and you get not assistance from the Geth. Without Grunt your choice to save the Rachni Queen in the first game is pointless because she is auto dead do to you needing to escape alive leaving her no time to leave. Without Thane or Salarian Captain the Councilor is auto killed and Shepard loses out on war assets from the Salarians.

 

Basically what I'm pointing out is the options and side effects of the game actually allow you freedom to play as you want rather then binding you to a very specific path if you want anything more then the worst ending and losing out on a fair amount of game play.

 

Shepard was brought up because he/she was the catalyst of the change. Thus Shepard was brought up and asked about his/her input about the possible future of the galaxy. To claim it shows organics are independent or capable of dealing with issues on their own is asinine because they are helped out all along the way. The Reaper Creator is ultimatly the one that makes their destruction even vaugly possible.

Nice points you got there. Juicy. First thing I'd like to point out is that although I am familiar with both Pirates of the Caribbean and MCU I'd like to keep our discussion within the boundaries of Mass Effect because if I wasn't familiar with Pirates of the Caribbean or MCU then I would have trouble understanding you.

Back into the main stuff.
You bring an interesting point that ME2 is written with the sequel in mind unlike ME1 however I beg to differ (yet another sidetrack from our discussion). You are right that ME1 is a self-contained story. It is consistent, it flows naturally, it has a great conclusion. But it's not because it was unsure if the sequel would follow. I may be wrong but the gaming industry is different with their plans about future installments. Sequels don't depend on the success of the predecessor. There are several examples of the games that produce sequels regardless of the quality or reception of their product (Assassin's Creed or any other example of yearly relase of the new title). And there are examples of the opposite - when after the successful game the sequel doesn't come (lack of Half-Life 3 even became a meme). And ME1 was totally created with the sequel in mind. Mainly because subplots like the Cypher, Genophage and Morning War don't really have any resolution, they were only established into the series. And the way Shepard finishes his line "The Reapers are still out there and I'm going to find some way to stop them" which sets up the overarching plot which will be in the sequel.

However when ME2 comes out it actually doesn't feel like a sequel we deserve (I won't go into the details for now).
I actually like your idea that ME2 and ME3 are a two-parter. It is a great approach, there are several films that did that right. But this doesn't apply to ME2 and 3. First thing I'd like to clarify about ME2 is that it is a self-contained story like ME1. It has a beginning (Collectors attack human colonies for some reason and only Cerberus wants to do anything about it), it has a middle (Collector Ship mission that is TIM's trap), and it has an end (Suicide Mission and breaking up with TIM)  

Back to my original point:
It is a separate story about the Collectors. A major side quest. It doesn't advance the Reaper plot in any way, just gives a bit of flavour on their Harvest. The overarching plot portion of ME2 is...5 % at best if you count Arrival with the rest 95% coming from ME3 (and of course it failed). We don't learn anything about the Reapers, we just have a reason to fear the Harvest. And ME3 tries to do ME2's job and establish its own plot...So we have a Crucible revelation (a way to stop them) then we have some info about the Lazarus Project thrown in the last act (a contemplation of whether Shepard is still Shepard)...then we have the Leviathan DLC that tries to explain the whole Catalyst nonsense... and that's basically it. All of this should've been in ME2 for it to work as a groundwork for ME3. Instead the whole Collector-Cerberus stuff was distracting us from the main plot when this time could be put to good use. I don't mind the Collectors being in the game. I just wish it tied better into an overarching plot so it would be meaningful in stopping the Reapers or learning about how to stop them.

About ME2 characters and their importance. You described nicely the ones who are replaced due to their importance to the plot. But don't you think that if you can easily replace them then this importance fades away? The only good example is Thane (and Kirrahe): He doesn't really do much in ME3 and Kirrahe just had one badass shot on Sur'Kesh but they are crucial in saving the salarian councilor. If you don't have them then he(she) dies and there's nothing you can do to stop it (for some reasons). 
Other characters are only important in side missions (Jacob is not important at all though) and some can be replaced by random new filler characters.
Even Wrex (the guy who you can kill off in ME1) is more valuable than any of ME2 characters because his presense is crucial to the resolution of Genophage arc. If he is there then it makes sense to cure the krogan but if Wreav is the clan leader then it doesn't seem like a good idea. It's funny you mention Grunt because he was absolutely pointless in ME2 (he isn't useful in any role in Suicide Mission) and he is absolutely pointless in ME3 (he gets replaced by a random less badass krogan without the catch-phrase) but the presense of Rachni is a mockery to ME1 players who chose to destroy the last queen.

And the last part.
You say that organics are helped all along the way but wasn't it true to Geth as well? The Catalyst has one task: to preserve organic life from being destroyed by synthetics. What does it end up doing? Helps Geth destroy organics. First in ME1 as Sovereign and then in ME3 when the Geth were desperate. If your task is to preserve organic life and you see that this very organic life actually has good chances against synthetics why would you interfere and help the opposing party? Here's an example: You meet 2 kids. Let's name them Gary and Kevin. Gary is a bully. You want help Kevin. He doesn't ask for your help though and he actually manages to avoid Gary. Next time you meet them, Kevin kicked Gary in the nuts and he is crying so you decide to help him instead. You propose him assistance to bully Sam further if he acknowledges your authority and he agrees. Does it make sense to you? To me it doesn't. The point being, if organics are helped by Reapers manage to resolve the conflict with synthetics who are helped by Reapers then shouldn't it make it even? 

Furthermore, after the Crucible is attached, the star child says that it altered his variables and it means his solution won't work anymore. Yet if Shepard refuses to play his games he gets all angry and says "the cycle continues". What? Suddenly his solution works? Why is he able to create only 3 terrible solutions? Why can't we persuade Catalyst of its faulty logic? Why is the Catalyst so inconsistent? I'd like to know your input on this and I don't want to encounter any head-canon stretches, just what was actually presented in the main game.

[Dantriges]

The whole thing about the Normandy still being able to enter an atmosphere without breaking into a million pieces would be somewhat viable if we weren´t talking about a Mass Effect reentry, where one person can enter an atmosphere, smash into a planet without being vaporised and get brought back from the dead because he/her still had the helmet on.

[gothpunkboy89]

The whole thing about the Normandy still being able to enter an atmosphere without breaking into a million pieces would be somewhat viable if we weren´t talking about a Mass Effect reentry, where one person can enter an atmosphere, smash into a planet without being vaporised and get brought back from the dead because he/her still had the helmet on.

 

That really depends on a few factors. The gravity strength of the planet, how dense the atmosphere is, hard suit durability as well as if kentic barriers would activate during a reentry free fall.

 

If the planet had 1g or less of gravity as well as a less dense atmosphere Shepard's terminal velocity would be reduced. The hard suit had a few holes to let oxygen out how ever they are sort of designed to work in all range set ups from freezing cold planets to extremely hot ones. If the kinetic barriers flared up even for short bursts it would act a bit like breaks increasing the surface area for wind resistance slowing Shepard down.

 

So his body surviving isn't that far of a stretch. Though don't get me wrong his body would be pretty well messed up and the most merciful thing would be for him to have asphyxiate before reentry.

[themikefest]

According to Jacob, Shepard was nothing but meat and tubes

[gothpunkboy89]

Nice points you got there. Juicy. First thing I'd like to point out is that although I am familiar with both Pirates of the Caribbean and MCU I'd like to keep our discussion within the boundaries of Mass Effect because if I wasn't familiar with Pirates of the Caribbean or MCU then I would have trouble understanding you.

Back into the main stuff.
You bring an interesting point that ME2 is written with the sequel in mind unlike ME1 however I beg to differ (yet another sidetrack from our discussion). You are right that ME1 is a self-contained story. It is consistent, it flows naturally, it has a great conclusion. But it's not because it was unsure if the sequel would follow. I may be wrong but the gaming industry is different with their plans about future installments. Sequels don't depend on the success of the predecessor. There are several examples of the games that produce sequels regardless of the quality or reception of their product (Assassin's Creed or any other example of yearly relase of the new title). And there are examples of the opposite - when after the successful game the sequel doesn't come (lack of Half-Life 3 even became a meme). And ME1 was totally created with the sequel in mind. Mainly because subplots like the Cypher, Genophage and Morning War don't really have any resolution, they were only established into the series. And the way Shepard finishes his line "The Reapers are still out there and I'm going to find some way to stop them" which sets up the overarching plot which will be in the sequel.

However when ME2 comes out it actually doesn't feel like a sequel we deserve (I won't go into the details for now).
I actually like your idea that ME2 and ME3 are a two-parter. It is a great approach, there are several films that did that right. But this doesn't apply to ME2 and 3. First thing I'd like to clarify about ME2 is that it is a self-contained story like ME1. It has a beginning (Collectors attack human colonies for some reason and only Cerberus wants to do anything about it), it has a middle (Collector Ship mission that is TIM's trap), and it has an end (Suicide Mission and breaking up with TIM)  

Back to my original point:
It is a separate story about the Collectors. A major side quest. It doesn't advance the Reaper plot in any way, just gives a bit of flavour on their Harvest. The overarching plot portion of ME2 is...5 % at best if you count Arrival with the rest 95% coming from ME3 (and of course it failed). We don't learn anything about the Reapers, we just have a reason to fear the Harvest. And ME3 tries to do ME2's job and establish its own plot...So we have a Crucible revelation (a way to stop them) then we have some info about the Lazarus Project thrown in the last act (a contemplation of whether Shepard is still Shepard)...then we have the Leviathan DLC that tries to explain the whole Catalyst nonsense... and that's basically it. All of this should've been in ME2 for it to work as a groundwork for ME3. Instead the whole Collector-Cerberus stuff was distracting us from the main plot when this time could be put to good use. I don't mind the Collectors being in the game. I just wish it tied better into an overarching plot so it would be meaningful in stopping the Reapers or learning about how to stop them.

About ME2 characters and their importance. You described nicely the ones who are replaced due to their importance to the plot. But don't you think that if you can easily replace them then this importance fades away? The only good example is Thane (and Kirrahe): He doesn't really do much in ME3 and Kirrahe just had one badass shot on Sur'Kesh but they are crucial in saving the salarian councilor. If you don't have them then he(she) dies and there's nothing you can do to stop it (for some reasons). 
Other characters are only important in side missions (Jacob is not important at all though) and some can be replaced by random new filler characters.
Even Wrex (the guy who you can kill off in ME1) is more valuable than any of ME2 characters because his presense is crucial to the resolution of Genophage arc. If he is there then it makes sense to cure the krogan but if Wreav is the clan leader then it doesn't seem like a good idea. It's funny you mention Grunt because he was absolutely pointless in ME2 (he isn't useful in any role in Suicide Mission) and he is absolutely pointless in ME3 (he gets replaced by a random less badass krogan without the catch-phrase) but the presense of Rachni is a mockery to ME1 players who chose to destroy the last queen.

And the last part.
You say that organics are helped all along the way but wasn't it true to Geth as well? The Catalyst has one task: to preserve organic life from being destroyed by synthetics. What does it end up doing? Helps Geth destroy organics. First in ME1 as Sovereign and then in ME3 when the Geth were desperate. If your task is to preserve organic life and you see that this very organic life actually has good chances against synthetics why would you interfere and help the opposing party? Here's an example: You meet 2 kids. Let's name them Gary and Kevin. Gary is a bully. You want help Kevin. He doesn't ask for your help though and he actually manages to avoid Gary. Next time you meet them, Kevin kicked Gary in the nuts and he is crying so you decide to help him instead. You propose him assistance to bully Sam further if he acknowledges your authority and he agrees. Does it make sense to you? To me it doesn't. The point being, if organics are helped by Reapers manage to resolve the conflict with synthetics who are helped by Reapers then shouldn't it make it even? 

Furthermore, after the Crucible is attached, the star child says that it altered his variables and it means his solution won't work anymore. Yet if Shepard refuses to play his games he gets all angry and says "the cycle continues". What? Suddenly his solution works? Why is he able to create only 3 terrible solutions? Why can't we persuade Catalyst of its faulty logic? Why is the Catalyst so inconsistent? I'd like to know your input on this and I don't want to encounter any head-canon stretches, just what was actually presented in the main game.

 

You don't really need to understand the PotC universe to understand my point. Simply know that Disney created the original movie as a one shot stand alone movie. How ever it became so popular they green lit 2 squeals to the original movie. Adding new things not hinted at in the first movie to allow it to be stretched over 2 movie turning it into a trilogy. Which echos how ME trilogy came about. ME 1 is created as a stand alone game. It's popularity allowed them to create squeals which they then had to rework stuff to allow it to be able to expand into a trilogy.

 

The game industry is a lot like the movie industry they don't take new ideas very enthusiastically. It is why you seem to be seeing the same movies made over and over again and some of the biggest AAA titles are the same games remade or a squeal to an older one. Your mention of Assassin's Creed fits that completely. As they have basically been reskining the same game with new gimmicks for years. New game can either be a complete bomb or simply are not popular enough to warrant a squeal. Bioware went the route a few games and a lot more movies should go down. Their first game in the series was a complete story. If it bombed or was not popular enough for EA to green light a sequel it still told a whole story. It how ever left enough open that if a sequel was allowed they could pick up the story and continue on. This is why there are some pacing issues with ME 2 and why it seems to some people like you as completely negating everything that happened in ME 1.

 

The Collector activity is a direct effect of you killing Sovereign in ME 1. If Sovereign wasn't kill the Collectors wouldn't need to start harvesting humans as the Reapers already were. Up to that point in the game world the Collectors have been so mysterious as to be considered on par with big foot on them not existing. They are only spurred into action by Harbinger to become more direct AFTER the events of ME 1 and Sovereign's destruction. Hence why the first thing they do is attack the Normandy to kill Shepard. Before they start attempting to harvest humans to create a new Reaper to replace Sovereign. Showing even if they are locked in Darkspace the Reapers can still spread their influence on the galaxy. The destruction of the Collector base is what prompts Harbinger to tell the rest of the Reapers to saddle up and head towards the Galaxy because they have some advanced organic and synthetic life to harvest.  ME 3 isn't a stand alone game because everything about it depends on your knowledge of previous games.

 

 

No their importance doesn't fade because them continuing to exist depends on your choices in the game. Choices are a core part of this game. Even if someone else shows up in their place it is my choice in previous games that dictate if they show up or not. This allows players to be space jesus or space devil and not be told they are playing the game wrong.  Jacob still fits into the over all story line showing that there are people simply wanting to survive the Reaper invasion. Jacob could join the fight but he is far more interested in starting a family. Jacob was always set up to be the every day man. He joined Cerberus not because he agrees with them but because he saw them as the only group actually doing what is needed to help people.  TIM even out right states in ME 2 how Jacob has always been willing to vocalize his dislike of certain actions TIM has taken. Those that he is aware of anyways.  Jacob might not play a role in the beat the Reaper part but his role in showing what people are fighting for is just as important.  Grunt is the catalyst that bring you to Tuchunka were players learn more about the Krogan and their daily lives. As well as showing the effect of your choice on Virmire. Grunt in ME 3 plays a really large role in the Rachni problem. Which doesn't actually spit in the face of anyone who choose to kill the queen. As the replacement is a synthetic Reaper creation. If you choose to do anything but destroy the fake queen your an idiot. If you saved the queen you are left with two choices. Save the queen again and risk Grunt and company or leave the queen and ensure Grunt and company survive.

 

You kind of land off target with the Geth. Sovergein uses the Geth as a portable army to open the Relay and allow them to jump right though. The funny thing is that action doesn't actually prevent the Reapers from then turning on the Geth and harvesting them to. Much in the same way it wouldn't have stopped them from harvesting Saren.  Harbinger actually has some quotes about the Quarians

 

http://masseffect.wi...)/Battle_Quotes

 

“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”

 

Lets also not forget the final show down that results in the complete death of the Quarians only happens AFTER the Geth are freed from Reaper control. The Reapers could easily have wiped them out before Shepard shows up but they choose not to.

 

And with the Curible you again miss the context of the words. The Crucible opened new possibilities the solution was in danger of failing not because of the Crucible. But because the factors in the galaxy were changing. Refuse ending shows the next cycle finding Liara's time box things  allowing the next cycle to be more prepared. That is the reason the Catalyst mentioned it's set up is failing. Each cycle was able to pass more information to the next.

[Iakus]

 

The Collector activity is a direct effect of you killing Sovereign in ME 1. If Sovereign wasn't kill the Collectors wouldn't need to start harvesting humans as the Reapers already were. Up to that point in the game world the Collectors have been so mysterious as to be considered on par with big foot on them not existing. They are only spurred into action by Harbinger to become more direct AFTER the events of ME 1 and Sovereign's destruction. Hence why the first thing they do is attack the Normandy to kill Shepard. Before they start attempting to harvest humans to create a new Reaper to replace Sovereign. Showing even if they are locked in Darkspace the Reapers can still spread their influence on the galaxy. The destruction of the Collector base is what prompts Harbinger to tell the rest of the Reapers to saddle up and head towards the Galaxy because they have some advanced organic and synthetic life to harvest.  ME 3 isn't a stand alone game because everything about it depends on your knowledge of previous games.

 

And the Collectors couldn't wait a couple of years until there were tens of thousands of Reapers in the galaxy helping with the harvest?

 

The only reason the Collectors "needing" to start harvesting would be because the Reapers are unable to do so themselves in a timely fashion.  Which is demonstrably not true.  

 

Heck when you get down to it, the dark space relay was essentially a waste of time on everyone's parts too.

[BloodyMares]

You don't really need to understand the PotC universe to understand my point. Simply know that Disney created the original movie as a one shot stand alone movie. How ever it became so popular they green lit 2 squeals to the original movie. Adding new things not hinted at in the first movie to allow it to be stretched over 2 movie turning it into a trilogy. Which echos how ME trilogy came about. ME 1 is created as a stand alone game. It's popularity allowed them to create squeals which they then had to rework stuff to allow it to be able to expand into a trilogy.

 

The game industry is a lot like the movie industry they don't take new ideas very enthusiastically. It is why you seem to be seeing the same movies made over and over again and some of the biggest AAA titles are the same games remade or a squeal to an older one. Your mention of Assassin's Creed fits that completely. As they have basically been reskining the same game with new gimmicks for years. New game can either be a complete bomb or simply are not popular enough to warrant a squeal. Bioware went the route a few games and a lot more movies should go down. Their first game in the series was a complete story. If it bombed or was not popular enough for EA to green light a sequel it still told a whole story. It how ever left enough open that if a sequel was allowed they could pick up the story and continue on. This is why there are some pacing issues with ME 2 and why it seems to some people like you as completely negating everything that happened in ME 1.

 

The Collector activity is a direct effect of you killing Sovereign in ME 1. If Sovereign wasn't kill the Collectors wouldn't need to start harvesting humans as the Reapers already were. Up to that point in the game world the Collectors have been so mysterious as to be considered on par with big foot on them not existing. They are only spurred into action by Harbinger to become more direct AFTER the events of ME 1 and Sovereign's destruction. Hence why the first thing they do is attack the Normandy to kill Shepard. Before they start attempting to harvest humans to create a new Reaper to replace Sovereign. Showing even if they are locked in Darkspace the Reapers can still spread their influence on the galaxy. The destruction of the Collector base is what prompts Harbinger to tell the rest of the Reapers to saddle up and head towards the Galaxy because they have some advanced organic and synthetic life to harvest.  ME 3 isn't a stand alone game because everything about it depends on your knowledge of previous games.

 

 

No their importance doesn't fade because them continuing to exist depends on your choices in the game. Choices are a core part of this game. Even if someone else shows up in their place it is my choice in previous games that dictate if they show up or not. This allows players to be space jesus or space devil and not be told they are playing the game wrong.  Jacob still fits into the over all story line showing that there are people simply wanting to survive the Reaper invasion. Jacob could join the fight but he is far more interested in starting a family. Jacob was always set up to be the every day man. He joined Cerberus not because he agrees with them but because he saw them as the only group actually doing what is needed to help people.  TIM even out right states in ME 2 how Jacob has always been willing to vocalize his dislike of certain actions TIM has taken. Those that he is aware of anyways.  Jacob might not play a role in the beat the Reaper part but his role in showing what people are fighting for is just as important.  Grunt is the catalyst that bring you to Tuchunka were players learn more about the Krogan and their daily lives. As well as showing the effect of your choice on Virmire. Grunt in ME 3 plays a really large role in the Rachni problem. Which doesn't actually spit in the face of anyone who choose to kill the queen. As the replacement is a synthetic Reaper creation. If you choose to do anything but destroy the fake queen your an idiot. If you saved the queen you are left with two choices. Save the queen again and risk Grunt and company or leave the queen and ensure Grunt and company survive.

 

You kind of land off target with the Geth. Sovergein uses the Geth as a portable army to open the Relay and allow them to jump right though. The funny thing is that action doesn't actually prevent the Reapers from then turning on the Geth and harvesting them to. Much in the same way it wouldn't have stopped them from harvesting Saren.  Harbinger actually has some quotes about the Quarians

 

http://masseffect.wi...)/Battle_Quotes

 

“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”

 

Lets also not forget the final show down that results in the complete death of the Quarians only happens AFTER the Geth are freed from Reaper control. The Reapers could easily have wiped them out before Shepard shows up but they choose not to.

 

And with the Curible you again miss the context of the words. The Crucible opened new possibilities the solution was in danger of failing not because of the Crucible. But because the factors in the galaxy were changing. Refuse ending shows the next cycle finding Liara's time box things  allowing the next cycle to be more prepared. That is the reason the Catalyst mentioned it's set up is failing. Each cycle was able to pass more information to the next.

Oh boy, so many words to no avail. You got carried away with details that you missed my points. Yes, I know that you are familiar with ME lore, no reason to show it in every post. Try to understand the meaning of my arguments and operate with this. I know the lore. I know the characters. Don't explain what happened in the game, I want to understand why it happened in the game, your thoughts. It may sound harsh but It feels like I bang my head against the wall and I'm just tired of the same pointless lore exposition. Understand that I mean no offence, we just talk about different things and that's why we can't reach consensus. Thank you for your contribution.

[Quarian Master Race]

 

 

Lets also not forget the final show down that results in the complete death of the Quarians only happens AFTER the Geth are freed from Reaper control. The Reapers could easily have wiped them out before Shepard shows up but they choose not to.

No they didn't. The Reaperized geth were very much trying to wipe out the quarians beforehand, the problem was that they couldn't find them.

Codex/The Reaper War:
"In an initial battle against the Reaper-upgraded geth ships, the quarians found their Heavy Fleet and a portion of the Patrol Fleet outmatched. To stave off defeat, the quarians retreated at FTL speeds to rally with the Civilian fleet on the far side of Rannoch's sun, Tikkun. Temporarily hidden, but with only minutes of advance warning should a geth scout spot them, the quarians planned counterattacks to disrupt the geth link with the Reapers. First preying on a damaged geth dreadnought, the quarians followed by sending strike teams to Rannoch's surface to destroy the Reaper that was transmitting improved software to geth forces."

and the Migrant Fleet description before Priority: Rannoch

"A flotilla of 50,000 craft holding over 17 million quarians, the Migrant Fleet is the largest array of spacefaring vessels in the known galaxy. It is a testament to the quarians' strategic skill that these numbers have not dropped significantly during recent battles. The fleet is now on the far side of the star from Rannoch, the better to cloak its movement from the geth."

The quarians were forced onto the defensive after the Reaper upgrades to protect the strategic Liveships, and were hobbled into only using the Heavy and part of the Patrol fleets (thus losing the ability to employ their Dreadnought scale guns), but they weren't really taking losses yet. The reason the Reaper constructs can destroy the quarians after Rannoch has more to do with Shepard serving as a fifth column and betraying the quarians by deliberately withholding information from Han'Gerrel that the Reaper code is being Re-Uploaded. The Civilian fleet has already broken cover to attack, operating on the knowledge that they are fighting geth and not Reaper constructs. The still full of civilians and food production equipment Liveships are then identified, targeted and destroyed.

Had Shepard not been masquerading as their ally, it's likely they would have continued their hit and run attacks rather than relying on him/her, and it's kind of hard to predict the result. They had all the pieces necessary to make the same plan work (stealth frigates, marine squads etc.), but don't employ them due to video game logic, so that the player can have something to do.

Either way though, the Reapers very much stepped in to prevent the quarians (organics) destroying the geth(synthetics) by propping them up and helping them in destroying the quarians(organics), which isn't something they should be doing according to their mandate. Their nonsense Xzibit logic is supposed to go the other way according to the endings.

 

[themikefest]

 The reason the Reaper constructs can destroy the quarians after Rannoch has more to do with Shepard serving as a fifth column and betraying the quarians by deliberately withholding information from Han'Gerrel that the Reaper code is being Re-Uploaded. The Civilian fleet has already broken cover to attack, operating on the knowledge that they are fighting geth and not Reaper constructs. The still full of civilians and food production equipment Liveships are then identified, targeted and destroyed.

Sure you can put some blame on Shepard, but I would put the blame more on Tali or Raan for failing to inform Gerrell that the geth are uploading the code that will wipe out their species.

[gothpunkboy89]

No they didn't. The Reaperized geth were very much trying to wipe out the quarians beforehand, the problem was that they couldn't find them.

Codex/The Reaper War:
"In an initial battle against the Reaper-upgraded geth ships, the quarians found their Heavy Fleet and a portion of the Patrol Fleet outmatched. To stave off defeat, the quarians retreated at FTL speeds to rally with the Civilian fleet on the far side of Rannoch's sun, Tikkun. Temporarily hidden, but with only minutes of advance warning should a geth scout spot them, the quarians planned counterattacks to disrupt the geth link with the Reapers. First preying on a damaged geth dreadnought, the quarians followed by sending strike teams to Rannoch's surface to destroy the Reaper that was transmitting improved software to geth forces."

and the Migrant Fleet description before Priority: Rannoch

"A flotilla of 50,000 craft holding over 17 million quarians, the Migrant Fleet is the largest array of spacefaring vessels in the known galaxy. It is a testament to the quarians' strategic skill that these numbers have not dropped significantly during recent battles. The fleet is now on the far side of the star from Rannoch, the better to cloak its movement from the geth."

The quarians were forced onto the defensive after the Reaper upgrades to protect the strategic Liveships, and were hobbled into only using the Heavy and part of the Patrol fleets (part was needed to guard the Civilians) but they weren't really taking losses yet. The reason the Reaper constructs can destroy the quarians after Rannoch has more to do with Shepard serving as a fifth column and betraying the quarians by deliberately withholding information from Han'Gerrel that the Reaper code is being Re-Uploaded. The Civilian fleet has already broken cover to attack, operating on the knowledge that they are fighting geth and not Reaper constructs. The still full of civilians and food production equipment Liveships are then identified, targeted and destroyed.

Had Shepard not been masquerading as their ally, it's likely they would have continued their hit and run attacks rather than relying on him/her, and it's kind of hard to predict the result. They had all the pieces necessary to make the same plan work (stealth frigates, marine squads etc.), but don't employ them due to video game logic, so that the player can have something to do.

Either way though, the Reapers very much stepped in to prevent the quarians (organics) destroying the geth(synthetics) by propping them up and helping them in destroying the quarians(organics), which isn't something they should be doing according to their mandate. Their nonsense Xzibit logic is supposed to go the other way according to the endings.
 

 

Couldn't find them? Are you really going to sit there and claim that hiding on the other side of a large celestial body has never been done before in the history of space combat in the ME universe? That the Reapers never had that happen to them?

 

Do you also remember that the majority of the Quarian Fleet is made up of the Civilian Fleet? Which consists of ships not created for the purpose of combat? They were armed like war ships but lacked the shielding and armor to sustain any sort of hits. When the bluk of your fleet isn't capable of engaging in combat and you hold it in reserve leaving only the smaller portion of ships capable of actually engaging in any sort of combat. Not really a surprise that most of the ships are still in tact when they retreat with them.

 

Geth were already capable of taking down the Quarians while under Reaper control. Their Dreadnought took 3 frigates to the face and only suffered mild damage. It required Legion to completely shut down all engine, weapons and shields for the Quarians to finally take it out. Such a threat that Garrel decided to blow it up while Shep and team was still inside. Seeing the Death of Tali/Raan and group as worth the trade off. You also ignore the fact that if Koris is not rescued off Rannoch Civilian captains panic and make a run for the Relay and are picked off by the Geth.

 

So yea claiming they were hidden and the only reason the Geth didn't kill them is because they couldn't find them is...lacking in logic. The Geth pinned them in their own system. Rendering them unable to fight against them without risking their entire race. But also sitting in a position that any attempt to run would result them them getting wiped out anyways.

 

This stale mate is only broken by the intervention of Shepard. Who either sets the Geth back into a state that the Quarians could fight. Or boosts the Geth back into their superior level and wiping the Quarians out.  Now if there was an option in the game that showed after Shepard disabled the Dreadnought the Qurians fleet leaving and being pursued only by the Geth Fleets with them ignoring all other races. Then your statement might have a point. But the game doesn't support your argument at all.

[gothpunkboy89]

And the Collectors couldn't wait a couple of years until there were tens of thousands of Reapers in the galaxy helping with the harvest?

 

The only reason the Collectors "needing" to start harvesting would be because the Reapers are unable to do so themselves in a timely fashion.  Which is demonstrably not true.  

 

Heck when you get down to it, the dark space relay was essentially a waste of time on everyone's parts too.

 

Because Harbinger wanted the collectors to do their work first. Harbinger is in control of the collectors. Only after their destruction does it show Harby and the rest of the Reapers powering up and heading towards the galaxy.

[gothpunkboy89]

Oh boy, so many words to no avail. You got carried away with details that you missed my points. Yes, I know that you are familiar with ME lore, no reason to show it in every post. Try to understand the meaning of my arguments and operate with this. I know the lore. I know the characters. Don't explain what happened in the game, I want to understand why it happened in the game, your thoughts. It may sound harsh but It feels like I bang my head against the wall and I'm just tired of the same pointless lore exposition. Understand that I mean no offence, we just talk about different things and that's why we can't reach consensus. Thank you for your contribution.

 

Lore is rather important in explaining the actions and reactions of things in the game. The events of ME 2 happened because Harbinger wanted them to happen. Much in the same way the events of ME 1 happen because Sovergin wanted them to happen. And events in ME 3 happen because the Reapers wanted it to happen.

 

I've tried to explain why it happens and you don't seem satisfied with the answers. I don't know how much more simple I can put it. Each game happens as it does because a Reaper has a plan to do something and you the hero attempt to stop it. That is kind of the basis of every game. Bad guy enacts crazy plan #45A and the hero of the game has to stop it. 

[Iakus]

Because Harbinger wanted the collectors to do their work first. Harbinger is in control of the collectors. Only after their destruction does it show Harby and the rest of the Reapers powering up and heading towards the galaxy.

Why?

 

How did jumping the gun on the harvest do anything but tip the Reapers' hand?

 

And the Reapers were heading for the MW since the end of ME1.  This is known.

[themikefest]

 Their Dreadnought took 3 frigates to the face and only suffered mild damage..

Really? Tali and Xen disagree with you

[gothpunkboy89]

Really? Tali and Xen disagree with you

Your right it took 6 frigates and only made a tiny hole showing the ship was even more powerful then I thought it was. Thank you for proving my statement even more.

[gothpunkboy89]

Why?

 

How did jumping the gun on the harvest do anything but tip the Reapers' hand?

 

And the Reapers were heading for the MW since the end of ME1.  This is known.

 

Going to start with the most straight forward question. How is it known they were heading towards the MW since the end of ME1? I seem to remember someone I don't remember who. Stating that they were already in motion. But their logic only worked as long as you ignore the very basic physics of light. As in their eyes and body glow and and they were sitting in shadow before their eyes and bodies started to light up. So unless they were camping in a black hole that is not how light works.  It does work if they are sitting in the darkness were there is no light and their internal lights are off.

 

They didn't jump any gun on the harvest. If anything the collectors would present a distraction to focus the galaxy on something else before the Reapers hit.

[Ieldra]

I suggest you uninstall the Extended Cut on your version of Mass Effect 3. I suggest you play through the ending again. And I suggest you watch, CLOSELY, what happens when the wave catches up to the Normandy.

 

Specifically, watch what happens to the engines.

 

The wreck of that ship isn't going anywhere and it's a miracle that it even landed on the planet with the main hull in one piece. Note also that the scene ends with an exterior shot of the Normandy breaking apart as the wave hits it. There is nothing to say the computers remain functional after the wave passes, but with the way the rest of the sequence is blocked, the implication is that's it. There is no more. The Normandy is derelict and non-functional.

 

And this, along with galactic civilization being effectively destroyed, was indeed the original authorial intent.

Indeed so. It's so obvious that you have to be wilfully ignorant to not see it. It's also quite clear given Mac Walter's answer to the question why we wouldn't be able to play after the plot has concluded: he said "Who would want to play in a wasteland?".

 

Of course they said afterwards that the EC didn't retcon anything, but that's obvious BS in order to save their reputation. The EC retconned a lot of things in the high-EMS outcomes, but most obviously it retconned the "dark age" implied by the original endings.

[BloodyMares]

Indeed so. It's so obvious that you have to be wilfully ignorant to not see it. It's also quite clear given Mac Walter's answer to the question why we wouldn't be able to play after the plot has concluded: he said "Who would want to play in a wasteland?".

 

Of course they said afterwards that the EC didn't retcon anything, but that's obvious BS in order to save their reputation. The EC retconned a lot of things in the high-EMS outcomes, but most obviously it retconned the "dark age" implied by the original endings.

Too bad it didn't retcon Catalyst.