2399 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolven_Soul]

I've been wondering why to some people it was logical to choose other options over the destroy ending - because as Shepard you are tasked to save the galaxy and "destroy" the reapers.

 

From your first encounter with Sovereign the galaxy knows that reapers can be destroyed with conventional methods (theoretically) - so when you are finally presented with a choice - why would you have a sudden change of heart and choose the other endings?

 

 

Destroy is the only one that ever made any sense to me.  Did it in my first and only playthough of ME3.  The first game your fighting against Saren and what he was advocating was synthesis.  In the third game your fighting against The Ilusive man and he was advocating control.  I am fighting to destroy the Reapers for the entire series, but in the penultimate moment I am supposed to change my mind?  Don't think so.

 

Synthesis I couldn't stomach doing that to the entirety of the galaxy without their knowing of what was coming.  That and it doesn't solve the problem of the creation of synthetic life forms that could eventually become a threat to the rest of the galaxy.  That can still happen.  Unless they are suggesting that any such creation is automatically gonna have an organic component which...wouldn't make much sense.  Whole thing just felt silly to me.

 

Control was a terrible option because sooner or later it seems to me that something or someone else will eventually come to be in control of the Reapers, and if that is possible, then eventually that something or someone is gonna be corrupt and evil.

 

So yeah, destroy is the only one that made sense to me.  Yeah it sucks about the Geth but, well, had to do what I had to do.  

 

In the end the fact that this choice exists is one of the biggest problems with the ending to the series.

[gothpunkboy89]

  The first game your fighting against Saren and what he was advocating was synthesis.

Didn't see that personally. Any particular parts that make you come to that conculsion? Saren seemed more to be indoctranated. Wanting to work with the reapers because he saw and knew what they could do. Thus by showing that they can be useful to them they would be over looked during the destruction.

[gothpunkboy89]

If personal opinion vanishes, we have a hivemind. As far as we know it doesn´t disappear in synthesis. We gt to undertand each other and have access to Reaper knowledge. TIM is an example how indoctrination messes up your brain, nothing else.

 

Enhanced processing power leading up to more ideas is an assumption we haven´t seen in the game. It only seems to me that they are able to do the tasks they do and need someone else for outside stuff. Synthesis can´t be forced, oh ok let´s harvest again. The Catalyst is the one with a big hammer and ll problems look like nails.

 

And the full grown adult still needed the two year old to come up with the "more power" solution to synthesis?

 

Organics don´t gain synthetic processing power.

 

You seem to be confusing indoctranation with synthsis. They are not the same. You also misunderstand synthsis when it comes to reaper knowlege. Reapers exist to solve the synthetic vs organic issue that existed well before they were created. Each reaper represents the sum knowlege and experiences of the harvested race that created it. In a way a giant flash drive. Synthsis or Control option ends the current set up the Catalyst has. Thus the reapers share the accumulated knowledge they have build up over the many cycles. Including information build up before the cycles started.

 

I don't even understand your second paragraph. My proccessing power metaphor was just to illustrate the difference in our ability to think vs what an AI would be capable of doing. During the synthesis ending all the orangic being have lines that vaughly look like ciruct board lines. Showing that they have become a techno-organic hybrid. This would give organics the ability to proccess information at the same level an AI would be able to. Legion points this out fairly well when he talks about the differences. between organic and synthetis. Stating very clearly they never talked before because they communiate at the speed of light. The 3 seconds of odd noise comming from them to us is an 6 hour long conversation for them.

 

Synethisis gives organics the abiltity to process information on their level. Something they are incapable of doing other wise.

 

Yes because Shepard has shown himself to be different then others. It is pretty well hinted that from the start of ME2 Shepard is viewed as close to a threat as the reapers can consider something. Listening to the possessed collectors in ME2 they have some insterstin dialoge towards shepard.

 

“Preserve Shepard's body if possible.”

“If I must tear you apart, Shepard, I will.”

“Impressive, Shepard.”

“Shepard, you could have been useful.”

“You escaped us before, Shepard, not again.”

 

Shadow broker mentions the standing reward from the Collectors for handing over Shepards body. Which really means Harbengier is intersted in his body.

[Dantriges]

No I understand it pretty clearly and I am pretty aware that we now share their knowledge database. That doesn´t turn everyone into shiny happy people and everyone has the same personal opinion. If some people think that this planet with these valuable resources should belong to them, you will still have conflict.

 

Processing power is based on hardware capabilities, you still won´t think at the speed of light just because you got some new wires. And what do you think this standard AI processing power we achieve actually is? Just because something turned AI doesn´t mean it´s super fast. That depends on hardware, available power and so on. A geth AI won´t have the processing power of a Reaper, the Reaper not of the Catalyst and a multi star Matroshka AI probably beats the Catalyst.

 

And that the green circuit board enhances  processing power is an assumption.Pewrhaps it´s just the WLAN connector to the Reaper database so we can read last cycle´s Shakespeare.

 

Shepard might be space jesus but he isn´t the brightest bulb in the drawer. Anyways if Shepard would be something so special that he is considered worthy and it´s in his/her genetic makeup (recover the body), we should drop the idea of cybernetic enhancement as the final step of evolution and just evolve galactic species to the next organic level, the Shepard.

 

And if Harbinger is simply wrong about Shepard´s genes being the thing that makes them special, why are taking advice on galactic gengineering and final evolution from the guys, who don´t get organics again?

[DeinonSlayer]

I've reached a conclusion. The "Broom Closet" ending is superior to all of them.



ALL of them.

[ImaginaryMatter]

synthesis combines those two into one being. Organics gain the thought proccess power of synthetics making them equal. Synthetis gain an understanding and motivation behind emotions. The major driving forces of organics and something that until that point they couldn't possibly hope to understand. Only emulate.

 

That solves the key issue between synthetics and organics.

 

We've talked with a few synthetic characters by the time we reach the end of ME3. The Geth at least already have a pretty good grasp on organics and emotion, and EDI for all of her questions can still fall in love with only the same level of obstacles as every other romance in the game. The over arching theme to all the AI vs organic conflicts seems to stem from organic bias, versus the two being fundamentally different. The lack of subtlety makes the conflict feel more like a giant space metaphor for race issues more akin to what we see today than any kind of tech singularity. Considering how often the writer's themselves relate AI to other race issues, this doesn't seem like too crazy an idea. It's pretty telling how the biggest problem in Joker's and EDI's relationship is social awkwardness, peace on Rannoch is accomplished by telling the Quarians to not fire on the Geth, and by the time of the ending every synthetic problem has been resolved -- at least until the Catalyst brings it up.

 

Point being, the conflict between organic and synthetics isn't much different than any other conflict. It arises and is resolved the same way. There's really nothing to suggest in the ME story that Synthesis is somehow needed (or what it even does). Peace can be achieved on Rannoch (our microcosm for the entire conflict) and while you can say something about how it can't last the story is unambiguously optimistic about the resolution. The story repeatedly calls attention to the idea that the two sides each have their own strengths but neither are necessarily superior to the other and synthetic characters all get the emotional thing after talking to a few organics -- all of which undermines the necessity of synthesis.

[gothpunkboy89]

You have 1 example to go off of. EDI. Geth until Legion distributes the reaper code upgrade are not True AI's. They are a networked intelligence were each geth has the awareness and intelligence of a PS3.  In fact US Military networked like 60 ps3's together to create a super computer.  Add enough of them together and it is theoretically possible to create a singular being out of all those systems. The thing is individually it is just a ps3. It is the combined possessing power of all of them that creates the 1 individual.

 

EDI is another one. Illusive Man is many things. Some good and a whole lot bad. How ever he is highly intelligent. Manipulating Shepard to assist him while hiding Cerberus's true face from him. AI's are still computer programs and IM would be smart enough to program EDI to prevent any such kill all organics from ever crossing her mind. Or at least prevent kill all humans from crossing her mind.

 

EDI is a singular being. Geth are only starting out as a race of  True AI's.  Neither are prefect examples. Nor is the time frame enough to actually see the full evolution of things. For all intents and purposes you have a lady run up to you and claim someone is trying to attack her and needs help. Based off that little bit of information you charge into defend her. Even though she could have picked the fight to start with and ran when she realized she was out matched.

 

Either way the Catyist and the Reapers were created with the mandate to preserve organic life at all costs. And organics and synthetics have time and time again fought each other for the ability to even exist. After Geth rebelled the Council had all AI development banned. And all AI's rounded up and killed. And without Shepard the Quarians would have wiped the geth out from existence or been wiped out from existence by the Geth.Possibly starting a war between the larger galaxy if the geth won. Realizing to protect themselves they would need more ships. The council would react to the build up of the fleet by attacking with their own fleets.

 

I'm sure some cycles end with synthetics attacking organics due to realizing why should I take orders from these idiots. And other are similar to the one in game. Were organics over react to synthetics and start their own war against them. Either way it is a war that keeps repeating it's self over and over and over and over again.

 

Destroy simply removes the existing group of synthetics. Reapers, geth, EDI all gone for now. But newer ones could take their place. Particularly if geth are gained as allies reducing the stigma behind creating AI. Thus allowing it to happen again.

 

Control simply puts all synthetics under one group mind. Reapers, geth, EDI all lose what made them individuals to be controlled by a central AI. Much in the way EDI controls the Normandy and Dr. Eve's body. If the reapers harvesting humans to create a centralized intelligence that represents them is a bad thing. Then why is it a good thing to be done to AI's?

 

Synthesis provides the best part of each to the other. Thus breaking down the barriers that have divided organic and synthetic and the reason the cycle of war has repeated over and over again.  That is why the catalyst favors it.  Because that option is the one that for fill it's programming by making it so organic and synthetic won't fight. Preserving organic life despite synthetic life's continual advancement.

[Dantriges]

You have 1 example to go off of. EDI. Geth until Legion distributes the reaper code upgrade are not True AI's. They are a networked intelligence were each geth has the awareness and intelligence of a PS3.  In fact US Military networked like 60 ps3's together to create a super computer.  Add enough of them together and it is theoretically possible to create a singular being out of all those systems. The thing is individually it is just a ps3. It is the combined possessing power of all of them that creates the 1 individual.

And the Zha´til were VIs in organic bodies until they rebelled. There i sno real standard template for an AI species.

Lemme see what we can do with the next one. 

EDI is another one. Illusive Man is many things. Some good and a whole lot bad. How ever he is highly intelligent. Manipulating Shepard to assist him while hiding Cerberus's true face from him. AI's are still computer programs and IM would be smart enough to program EDI to prevent any such kill all organics from ever crossing her mind. Or at least prevent kill all humans from crossing her mind.

 
The Catalyst is another one. The Leviathans are many things. Some good and a whole lot bad. How ever they are highly intelligent. AI's are still computer programs and the Leviathans would be smart enough to program the Catalyst to prevent any such kill all organics from ever crossing its mind. Or at least prevent kill all Leviathans from crossing its mind.
 

I'm sure some cycles end with synthetics attacking organics due to realizing why should I take orders from these idiots. And other are similar to the one in game. Were organics over react to synthetics and start their own war against them. Either way it is a war that keeps repeating it's self over and over and over and over again.

 
That´s what the catalyst, who turned the galaxy into its personal lab tells you. When there is someone who manipulates developments in a certain direction, the data is rather questionabl.
 

EDI is a singular being. Geth are only starting out as a race of  True AI's.  Neither are prefect examples. Nor is the time frame enough to actually see the full evolution of things. For all intents and purposes you have a lady run up to you and claim someone is trying to attack her and needs help. Based off that little bit of information you charge into defend her. Even though she could have picked the fight to start with and ran when she realized she was out matched.

That´s a good one. The Catalyst is like the lady in your example. "There are always hese pesky synthetics trying to wipe out all organic life, please press green." There is not much real evidence and what´s there is probably biased because the prophet makes his prophecies happen.

[gothpunkboy89]

They were AI not VIs. That were transformed into borg from Star Trek like creatures. At least I pictured the borg when I heard about them. Something we see the Illusive Man repeat in Project Overlord.

 

Leviathans still consider the intelligence to be doing their bidding. It is preserving organic life at all costs. Reapers are more then capable of annihilating any and all species in a matter of moments. You continue on this line of reasoning that they are killing because they like to kill. Yet you ignore how easily it would be for them to take out species quickly. A tungsten rod the size of a telephone poll fired at near the speed of light would result in massive damage on impact.  Shepard wouldn't even have time to get to the Normandy if the Reapers wanted everyone dead. The game would have just been a 20 second video of Shepherd walking to the council office then being killed along with everyone else in the city thanks to 1 shot from any reaper.

 

Also remember the Leviathans quiet literally controlled the entire known galaxy. Every new race they encountered they would enthrall to their will. The concept that one of their tools might rebel against them was unfathomable. It is like us expecting house cats to rebel against us. We just can't see it happening so we don't plan or think about it at all.  So when they do it will be completely by surprise and almost all if not all of us will be dead before we could react.  They don't manipulate evolution they only lay the ground work for civilizations to develop once they reach a certain point. Protheans manipulated species far more then it does. Remember they didn't initially start the 50,000 year cycle. That set up was created later.  Evolution is the key. They evolve, create their own societies then once they reach a certain point the intelligence gives them the technology needed to speed up the development that might normally take 100,000 years on their own. And it lines up about right considering only 300 years before the harvest would normally take place the Quarians feel into the same trap as countless species before them. The creation of a synthetic race that started a war with the survival of the Quarian race at stake. Then later the Quarians attack the Geth again. Only surviving (if you picked them over geth or both) because Sheapard intervened.

 

Even without Sovereign's actions the Quarains would have attacked the geth. Lost and that would have drawn the council into it. Igniting a galaxy wide fight. And I can say lost without a doubt because it is the actions of Sovereign that  expanded the geth thus gave Quarian's like Tali more access to their tech. Along with any upgrades picked up thanks to reapers to them. Which allowed them to be successful against them in ME3.

 

This is the cycle the intelligence wishes to break to preserve organic life at all cost. It isn't necessarily just synthetics rebelling against organics. But organics creating perfection then being frightened by what it can do and reacting by attacking it. Causing the synthetics to fight back to live and in many cases kill off their creators.

 

And I will repeat what I said above that you ignored:

 

 

Destroy simply removes the existing group of synthetics. Reapers, geth, EDI all gone for now. But newer ones could take their place. Particularly if geth are gained as allies reducing the stigma behind creating AI. Thus allowing it to happen again.

 

Control simply puts all synthetics under one group mind. Reapers, geth, EDI all lose what made them individuals to be controlled by a central AI. Much in the way EDI controls the Normandy and Dr. Eve's body. If the reapers harvesting humans to create a centralized intelligence that represents them is a bad thing. Then why is it a good thing to be done to AI's?

 

Synthesis provides the best part of each to the other. Thus breaking down the barriers that have divided organic and synthetic and the reason the cycle of war has repeated over and over again.  That is why the catalyst favors it.  Because that option is the one that for fill it's programming by making it so organic and synthetic won't fight. Preserving organic life despite synthetic life's continual advancement.

 

Because the fact is synthetic will always surpass organic. So how do you keep the balance?

[Dantriges]

IIRC they were originally planned as VIs. But yeah they changed as far as we know.

 

It´s fulfilling its purpose, it´s not really doing their bidding. No I don´t think they like to kill. And it would be nice if you drop that "you ignore blabla" stuff. It sounds like a forum firendly way to say "you are an idiot."

 

You missed the point, it was more about EDI. Let´s see. Quite a lot of AIs rebelled in the billion years according to the Catalyst. Do you think they all forgot to put in programming not to harm their creators? So all this EDI doesn´t hurt humans because TIM programmed her to, doesn´t fit. BTW she is pretty capable of killing humans during the course of the game.

 

Eh what? The intelligence gives organics the technology? You mean besides the mass relays? Like active intervention? That´s not in the game.

 

 

Even without Sovereign's actions the Quarains would have attacked the geth. Lost and that would have drawn the council into it. Igniting a galaxy wide fight. And I can say lost without a doubt because it is the actions of Sovereign that  expanded the geth thus gave Quarian's like Tali more access to their tech. Along with any upgrades picked up thanks to reapers to them. Which allowed them to be successful against them in ME3.

 

If ME 1 didn´t happen, we wouldn´t have a game. The council didn´t intervene in the Dawn War, when the quarians were an affiliated species. Sovereigns actions resulted in the heretic-true geth split, he didn´t gave them upgrades. If the Reapers had shown up a year, the geth would have been toast.

 

Yeah I ignoreed it, so what. Do I need to answer to every idle speculation uttered in this forum with stuff not based on anything like "every AI will be under control in Control"? The Catalyst clearly says that it only involves the Reapers.

 

That´s a fact?

[ImaginaryMatter]

...

 

Imagine if you're a player who isn't normally into science fiction and you encounter the Mass Effect artificial intelligence. Except for maybe the occasional sprinkling of something like SkyNet in Terminator, you are mostly an AI virgin -- you don't even know what a tech singularity even is.

 

Where would you get this idea of 'True AI' from?

 

No where. There might be something vague enough in the Codex entries to establish some over arching hierarchy of what is more artificially intelligent (although I doubt even that). It's not relevant to the story in the least bit. What's important is the insight to AI through the characters and the story arcs (and even the game's own mechanics). You can't dismiss Legion and the Geth from the conversation like that based on a preconceived notion of what a true AI is. The Rannoch arc is our microcosm into the entire view of the AI/organic conflict; heck, aside from EDI, Legion is really the only source that offers significant insight into AIs, especially when you consider the vanilla stuff that isn't regulated to DLC.

 

Stories need to engage the audience emotionally, not on some logical string of what-ifs in a fictional universe (the MEverse doesn't even hold up to that kind of scrutiny). This is where the ending fails as far as this organic vs synthetic idea is concerned. For it to work AI's need to be fundamentally different and a clear threat in the game and all that stuff has to be established in the game -- and not based off one of the recurring general ideas about them that exist in general culture. Look at far ME goes to sanctify the Geth in ME3. That stuff all has a point and affects how the audience feels about the overall conflict. Furthermore, all of this is resolved long before the ending even happens. At best it's regurgitating a conflict that was already better told and ended.

 

This is why the Catalyst and the choices don't work. You know that old adage, "Show, don't tell". The Catalyst can only tell. The story hasn't showed the kind of conflict. So while you might be able to logically engage the player into some decision about how to metaphorically deal with AI. The emotional aspect isn't there to solve some newly developed metaphysical tension that's only established when a brand new character tells us about it. Doing that only confuses people, leading them to rake through the incongruous mess of events leading to that point.

[gothpunkboy89]

True AI is very simple. They explain the geth as a networked intelligence since day 1. Since the first game they point out geth are smarter in groups. The more geth platforms you destroy the less geth are networked together and the more aggressive and animal like their attacks become. A single geth program is little more then a glorified calculator.  Geth Primes are command and control units due to the high amount of geth programs that inhabit the shell. Their appearance on the battle fields and the increase in geth's offensive abilities is due to the increased geth networked together.

 

The game also explains the mobile shell we call legion was composed of over 1,000 geth inhabiting one shell. Thus he was able to operate the way he did. Because he had more geth networked in to rival if not exceed what geth primes have. Thus he is able to operate outside of the consensus were any other platform would be come basic and animal like with very little intelligence.  This fact is hammered home during ME3 Priority: Rannoch. When Shepard shows a picture of a single geth unit. Then multiple geth units networked together. Then a geth unit with a reaper upgrade. Which elicits the responds that it is a fully evolve AI to the shock and horror of the Quarians.

 

Until legion gains the reaper upgrade and until he sacrifices himself to distribute the upgrade to the geth they are not true AI. No more than when playstation owners could lend their playstations's processing power to folding@home. Which 10,000 playstations networked together could make 100 trillion calculations a second.  Did that create an AI? Because it runs on the same properties as geth do pre reaper upgrade.

 

The story is told in the game play. Only very specific choices end with both quarians and geth together. All others end with you picking one or the other. Unless you do legion's mission the basic concept the quarians put forth is considered the true history to the player and the galaxy at large.

 

Like wise Leviathan DLC they specifically state the intelligence was created with the mandate to preserve organic life at all cost. And it spent years traveling the stars studying the birth and growth of countless civilizations. And why as the intelligence created in the first place? Because the thralls of the leviathans kept creating synthetics that would inevitable cause fighting between the two. With the end result more often then not the organic race being destroyed. For a race that literally ruled the galaxy. That would mean a lot of races would have had to go extinct for them to feel the need to do anything about it.  Particularly if they have the same self centered attitude the ones you find have.

[gothpunkboy89]

......

Don't ignore things I say and I won't bring it up. Destroy and control options make you no better then the reapers by doing exactly what they do only to synthetic life rather then organic life. I've brought this up a couple of times and each time you ignore it when I want your responds to it.

 

AI's are still programs at their core. Highly advanced ones that can create their own answers and gain intelligence in a way similar to organic brains. But just like we can't fully ignore instincts she couldn't ignore inherent programming.

 

Let me ask you this why do people have one night stands with strangers? Every ounce of logic dictates that is a bad idea for a wide variety of reasons. Yet we do it anyways. Why? Primal programming over rides common sense so we make those decisions that other wise are considered stupid. If a human mind is subject to this why not an artificial one. Particularly one build with the express purpose to serve.

 

The intelligence seems to have been build with very broad terms. Preserve organic life at all cost is a very broad programming base. Like wise the leviathan's very egotistical view of themselves and were they sit compared to everything else in the galaxy is the sole reason why the intelligence was so successful.  Pride goes before the fall.

 

And you are right control option doesn't take over all synthetics. My mistake.

[angol fear]

@ImaginaryMatter,

microcosm and macrocosm aren't the same thing. The whole trilogy is based on perception. You can't ignore that (while that's what you're doing). Rannoch without context (because you're ignoring the context) isn't an argument, it means nothing. There are several levels in Mass Effect, you can't read it as if everything was on the same level.

 

And for the "show, don't tell", if you follow blindly that adage, let's see how absurd it is : there should be no dialogue in Mass Effect ! Ridiculous! Now let's see it in another way. The catalyst talk about synthetics taht can wipe out all organic life, so we need to see, which means that we need to get a "game over" (all organic life destroyed, including Shepard) to understand that the catalyst is right. Ridiculous! 

 

Now the "newly developped metaphysical tension", well, it's not new : Mass Effect  1 is all about the opposition between organics and synthetics. And the metaphysical aspect is here in Sovereign speech, and in Mass Effect 2 it became explicit ( you know the "ESSENCE" word which comes from metaphysic!)

[Kynare]

Control simply puts all synthetics under one group mind. Reapers, geth, EDI all lose what made them individuals to be controlled by a central AI. Much in the way EDI controls the Normandy and Dr. Eve's body. If the reapers harvesting humans to create a centralized intelligence that represents them is a bad thing. Then why is it a good thing to be done to AI's?

 

 

Apologies for not addressing the rest of your post. I just wanted to make a correction... Control only controls the Reaper fleets. No other AIs.

 

People can call it the "evil" choice (in reference to someone who said so in the previous page), but the Reapers sorta forfeited their right to continue to live life as they pleased after they slaughtered thousands of civilizations. Shepard, Paragon or not, doesn't need to care about their free will. I don't really get why people who debate against the Control ending say the Reapers are evil and need to be destroyed, but then go on to saying that Control is evil because it takes away the minds of the Reapers who are evil and need to be destroyed anyway...

 

But besides that, I don't even think it takes away their free will. They require an AI to function as humans need a brain, and now they have a stronger, smarter and more experienced one (Shepard + Catalyst). I think they're perfectly fine with that arrangement. Hence why it was willingly offered to Shepard in the first place along with Synthesis and Destroy. They only want to serve their purpose, and all three endings achieve that (albeit, Destroy less so.)

[Dantriges]

Don't ignore things I say and I won't bring it up. Destroy and control options make you no better then the reapers by doing exactly what they do only to synthetic life rather then organic life. I've brought this up a couple of times and each time you ignore it when I want your responds to it.

 

AI's are still programs at their core. Highly advanced ones that can create their own answers and gain intelligence in a way similar to organic brains. But just like we can't fully ignore instincts she couldn't ignore inherent programming.

 

Let me ask you this why do people have one night stands with strangers? Every ounce of logic dictates that is a bad idea for a wide variety of reasons. Yet we do it anyways. Why? Primal programming over rides common sense so we make those decisions that other wise are considered stupid. If a human mind is subject to this why not an artificial one. Particularly one build with the express purpose to serve.

 

The intelligence seems to have been build with very broad terms. Preserve organic life at all cost is a very broad programming base. Like wise the leviathan's very egotistical view of themselves and were they sit compared to everything else in the galaxy is the sole reason why the intelligence was so successful.  Pride goes before the fall.

 

And you are right control option doesn't take over all synthetics. My mistake.

 

There were two posts in between, I thought it was a general statement and didn´t realize it was directed at me. Well, I would have prefered it, if I could tell them to get out of the galaxy and don´t bother us any further or go and come back and blast the synthetics bent on galactic genocide when we have this situation and then we talk about this synthesis deal again but these options weren´t there. And no taking destroy or control doesn´t make you as bad as the Reapers. They never explained themselves or this problem before they showed up guns blazing, they laid waste to most planets of the current galactic community, they did it countless times before for a billion years and they don´t even stop shooting when the Catalyst talks to you.

 

So IMO you don´t have to take synthesis just to be "better" than the Reapers. If someone start to openly engage in warfare, he can´t cry "foul play" if the other side is victorious. Yeah ok, it´s an all or nothing deal but there isn´t anything else on the table besides synthesis and well they shouldn´t expect that you joyfully jump into the beam after that explanation.

 

So Shepard is ready for synthesis? What about the rest? Synthesis can´t be forced but am I not forcing my decision on the rest of the galaxy if I jump? it´s the best solution according to the Catalyst. But well, I don´t know if its code is buggy, the data wasn´t verified by another source or if his perspective is really as unbiased as it claims it is. And it admits, that it doesn´t understand organics (at least in certain areas that are affected), that´s a big gaping hole in the whole "this is the best solution." How does it know that? Somehow because it did some calculations with a big blind spot in areas where it doen´t understand organics.

 

Yeah the ending slides sell the whole outcome as positive, OTOH so does destroy and control only sounds creepy in its undertones. Anyways Shep can´t see the future at that moment.  

 

I don´t say that synthesis will turn into a living nightmare, we simply don´t know, like we don´t know if hundred years after the ending slides for destroy, the council species really build AIs again.

 

So yeah AI are still programs at their core and well it seems that the Catalyst has a lot of limits on his perspective. Preserve organic life at any costs is very broad but so is serve organics . Both allowed repspective AIs to eliminate their masters. And it seems that the catalyst and the reapers shared quite a bit of the Leviathans mindset. That only means that their "objective" point of view is still clouded by personal opinion and their complete lack of understanding the organics. 

[gothpunkboy89]

Apologies for not addressing the rest of your post. I just wanted to make a correction... Control only controls the Reaper fleets. No other AIs.

 

People can call it the "evil" choice (in reference to someone who said so in the previous page), but the Reapers sorta forfeited their right to continue to live life as they pleased after they slaughtered thousands of civilizations. Shepard, Paragon or not, doesn't need to care about their free will. I don't really get why people who debate against the Control ending say the Reapers are evil and need to be destroyed, but then go on to saying that Control is evil because it takes away the minds of the Reapers who are evil and need to be destroyed anyway...

 

But besides that, I don't even think it takes away their free will. They require an AI to function as humans need a brain, and now they have a stronger, smarter and more experienced one (Shepard + Catalyst). I think they're perfectly fine with that arrangement. Hence why it was willingly offered to Shepard in the first place along with Synthesis and Destroy. They only want to serve their purpose, and all three endings achieve that (albeit, Destroy less so.)

I did address in another post my mistake about control option.

 

Humans in the past have slaughtered thousands of civilians.

 

Turians have killed thousands of their own species in the Unification War.

 

Salarian I'm sure have a high body count thanks to STG.

 

Krogan.....well that is all that needs to be said.

 

The issue I see with control is this simply changes the game slightly. The new AI has control of the reapers. If he intends peace then he will be enforcing it with an iron hand. As the reaper fleets are quite literally unbeatable.  Threat of annihilation to keep the peace.

[Kynare]

I did address in another post my mistake about control option.

 

Humans in the past have slaughtered thousands of civilians.

 

Turians have killed thousands of their own species in the Unification War.

 

Salarian I'm sure have a high body count thanks to STG.

 

Krogan.....well that is all that needs to be said.

 

 

Right... we're talking genocide on a massive scale in an entire galaxy, though. Sure, the concept is the same, but the severity doesn't quite compare, if you ask me.

 

But don't get me wrong—I personally don't hate the Reapers and I don't see them as inherently wrong or evil. (I only brought up the previous point to show why I disagreed with the assessment of Control being evil.) "Organics seek perfection through technology, synthetics seek perfection through understanding." I chose Control because I interpreted it as sharing extensive knowledge and resource with the Reapers, and learning to understand each other as an organic and a synthetic without altering the lives of the entire galaxy. Sort of like a baby step into "true" synthesis, rather than a full-on dive.

 

 

The issue I see with control is this simply changes the game slightly. The new AI has control of the reapers. If he intends peace then he will be enforcing it with an iron hand. As the reaper fleets are quite literally unbeatable.  Threat of annihilation to keep the peace.

 

That's all up to personal interpretation. Paragon Control certainly sounds nothing like that. Judging from the EC speech, it seems to me they intend to keep a hands-off approach, simply keeping an eye out for outside threats and taking a neutral/diplomatic approach to galactic disputes, prioritizing intergalactic life as a whole rather than serving their own personal conquest. They take in Shepard's previous moral system and ethics and apply it to their own programming. Paragon Shepard has never ruled with an iron hand. It was one of the huge differences between Paragon and Renegade.

 

With power comes great responsibility... and all that jazz.

 

Renegade Shepard is a different story, though.

[gothpunkboy89]

Someone who kills 1 person and someone who kills 1 million are the same to me. Murder and death is murder and death regardless of scale.  Which is why I always find it funny how so many species in game condemn the krogan for their violent ways. When they are just as bad just not so obvious about it.

 

And of course people will listen to new AI shep. He has reapers at his command. I'd listen to him regardless of paragon or renegade. Any attempt to oppose him in any open way would be crushed quickly.

[Dantriges]

If you see it this way, Shep is already rotten to the core and doesn´t have to care about the moral implications. Especially ME 2 is Shepard on a killing spree with no warning given.There are 105 enemies in the mission to get Thane alone and perhaps half of them are nonsentient robots and that Shep saves the salarian workers in the process is only a thin justificataion. Most loyalty or recruitment missions are Shep goes in guns blazing and kills a lot of people without a warning given or trying to find a non violent way to achieve their objectives. It´s really hard to justify that stuff as something else than not murder.

[gothpunkboy89]

If you see it this way, Shep is already rotten to the core and doesn´t have to care about the moral implications. Especially ME 2 is Shepard on a killing spree with no warning given.There are 105 enemies in the mission to get Thane alone and perhaps half of them are nonsentient robots and that Shep saves the salarian workers in the process is only a thin justificataion. Most loyalty or recruitment missions are Shep goes in guns blazing and kills a lot of people without a warning given or trying to find a non violent way to achieve their objectives. It´s really hard to justify that stuff as something else than not murder.

There is a difference how ever.

 

Players condemn the reapers to destruction based on their actions of harvesting and converting creatures.

 

I do not condemn them in the same way. So I don't have issue with any of Sheps actions because I don't look at it from a black and white perspective you seem to have on it.

 

You also ignore all those people you kill are mercenaries. That are murders themselves. Who actively sent the mechs after the slarian workers killing them. Zaeed's loyalty mission is about the only one were innocents die. And even then it isn't directly by your hand it is by your inaction to save them.

[dorktainian]

it isn't about what shepard would do though is it?  It is about what you would do.  Kill or be killed.  

[Dantriges]

There is a difference how ever.

 

Players condemn the reapers to destruction based on their actions of harvesting and converting creatures.

 

I do not condemn them in the same way. So I don't have issue with any of Sheps actions because I don't look at it from a black and white perspective you seem to have on it.

 

You also ignore all those people you kill are mercenaries. That are murders themselves. Who actively sent the mechs after the slarian workers killing them. Zaeed's loyalty mission is about the only one were innocents die. And even then it isn't directly by your hand it is by your inaction to save them.

 

It was a response to your one murder or a million doesn´t matter.

 

Ah yes really, i have a black and white perspective, just because I don´t say yes to the shady offer of the nigerian reaperian secretary of finances. The one which  actually shouldn´t work according to its own statements (can´t be forced, unable to work if the recipients aren´t ready) and there are a dozen nonviolent alternatives if Reaperman would actually start using his megaprocessing power. Yeah sure.

 

You were going there loaded for bear. That the salarian workers were threatened was unknown to Shepard when (s)he decided to pay the Dantius Towers a visit. Also murder is one of the few crimes that are actually punished on Illium and you didn´t even try to csall the local law enforcement, minimize the bloodshed on the mercs or salarians side. Instead of quipping a witty oneliner at Nassana you could have tried to negotiate for example. Funny thing is you could stillwalk out there with Thane in tow if you have spectre authority and say so like in the case of Balak. But you are killing your way upstairs, the interesting thing is, that it´s totallly within their duties to try to kill you, trespassing into private property over piles of security guards. That they are also guilty, doesn´t matter.

 

You are often killing mercs on their turf with no attempt at negitiation or even stating what your business is and what you want or else, you just open fire or get fired upon fter walking in there unannounced and heavily armed. Probably most of them are guilty of something but that doesn´t make it right.

 

Just because the Reapers have a good reason in their opinion to open fire and trample through the galaxy like a cleansing flame doesn´t mean I have to agree with them, especially when they don´t pause their hostilities for one minute and give you a confusing short summary of the nonviolent option. That they force the decision upon Shep, after (s)he just recovered from unconsciousness, is hurting and bleeding on the floor tastes a lot like "we have to pull this off, as long as Sheop is befuddled and can´t think clearly."

 

Even an AI should get that decisions are made after analyzing data which it doesn´t really provide besides a short summary for the stupid monkey and that losing fluids indicate a malfunction of the system.

[gothpunkboy89]

Thanes Recutiment Mission:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=MFQ6o1tvNM4

 

Shepard when to find Thane.  Maybe to stop him, maybe to just pull him out when he was done. Either way he walks up to the tower to see Salarian workers being mowed down by Loki Mechs. When talking to one of the survivors they lay it out pretty clearly that they were sent by whats her face to kill them. Mechs gained when she hired the Blue Suns for protection as they specialized in mechs.

 

 

Illium while populated mostly with Asari is not an officially recognized Asari colony world. Hence why so many things that are usually illegal in Asari space. Like red sand or indentured servitude.  Invoking his specter status would be like me walking into a Wal Mart and declaring myself batman.  To the same effect. Illium is just a nicer looking Omega.

 

The rest of your post only seems to back up my claim of your very black and white out look on the game. While mine is far more grey.

[Dantriges]

Lair of the Shadow Broker. Spectre Vasir is at a crime scene, ordering the police around and even forces them to leave. Unless they are bribed which would be base speculation and highly unlikely, Illium seems to accept council spectres as persons of authority better, than their own justicars.

 

Aha. Ok, whatever.