2442 réponses à ce sujet

[dorktainian]

I must admit with all the discussion on who is right, i'm now heavily leaning towards refusal of any of the options.

[kal_reegar]

The moment the crucible docked on the citadel and it's ready to shot, the war is won.

The catalyst and RGB have hust the purpose to establish how (or when) the war is won. I'm not saying they are irrelevant, but neither so important

The reapers can be rendered harmless by destruction/eile (today o in the future), ensalvement or brainwashing through Shepard's super-homistic readiness. In any case, they are no longer a threat and the galaxy is saved,

 

I personally find synthesis is very trash and very unaesthetic (glowing green people and plants? wtf... happy ending from a sexbot point of view? ahahah absolute garbage).

On the other hand, I think that Shepard (heavily implied) survival is the better ending (after all, the highest EMS is required to unlock that)... but the other endings (refusal and control) are ok too.

[BloodyMares]

The moment the crucible docked on the citadel and it's ready to shot, the war is won.

It would be if the Reapers would cease fire while the Catalyst talks with Shepard.

[kal_reegar]

It would be if the Reapers would cease fire while the Catalyst talks with Shepard.

 

Why? There is little time to activate the crucible, and thus little time to think, and if the three choiches  are presented to Shepard while all his friends and allied are daying, it's more likely that Shepard would choose "wisely" (for example, a lot of people are not cool with destroy just because little poor Edi will die... oh, poor little geths, I will not allow the bad reapers to kill you, so I put the reapers in charge).

The catalyst is smart, he probably know the importance of  negotiating from a position of strenght and blackmailing.

Shepard need to understand very clearly that:

- the reapers are no longer a threat, true

- but they can still exterminate everyone in this cycle

You did all the job, made huge sacrifices, but hey, next cycle will benefit of your efforts. See? Very difficult to accept.

If Shepard is letf with the hope of conventional victory, he would probably refuse the catalyst options.

[Dantriges]

Even if we go with the catalyst has no ability to control anything on the Citadel this makes no sense.

They are actually shooting the Crucible. It´s a sturdy but still breakable piece of machinery. If EMS is lower, they knock synthesis from the table during the flight. Calling a bunch of Reaper ground forces making a lot of noise downstairs would be a safer bet. The beam is secured again by the Reapers. You can call them in, if you actually have nothing else around your C&C on the space fortress which hasn´t been a 100% secured. 

The Catalyst wouldn´t need to tell Shepard anything and Shep would have no clue what to do. It could tell Shep what it wants and Shep has nothing else as a clue.

The chamber is outside. If the Catalyst has clear preferences, it could simply disagree by letting a Reaper or Occulus shoot Shep.

[Natureguy85]

Since the Catalyst wants Synthesis and Synthesis requires the Crucible, there is no reason to attack it. A superior species pushing conflict to get another species to advance in order to rise to the occasion is a thing in fiction. XCOM does it, for example. However, then the Reapers would shoot everything but the Crucible. Also, usually with this kind of story, the more advanced race is looking for a species with something they lack; whatever thing keeps them from being able to accomplish their ultimate goal themselves. In XCOM, it's that the Ethereals have a withered, weakened physical form because of their reliance on their powerful psychic abilities, and they think humans can gain similar powers while retaining a hardy physical body. They mention something else coming that will require this combination, but don't say what that is. I haven't played XCOM2 yet, so I don't know if it's expanded on there. That game is in an alternate timeline anyway, one where humanity lost and didn't gain psychic abilities, so I'm guessing not. But the Reapers claim to be perfect, the highest form of existence, so this doesn't fit them.

[simonrana]

I've reached a conclusion. The "Broom Closet" ending is superior to all of them.



ALL of them.

Omg that's flipping hilarious!

[andy6915]

People are still being fooled by the Catalyst? Jeez. The catalyst is hacked and is forced to divulge information, it isn't doing it by choice. I made a topic about it a long time ago where I explained this, and the topic basically ended with my theory being even stronger.
 
http://forum.bioware...a-derpy-choice/
 
 
 
 

I've seen it around the forum enough now to realize that it's not a few people misunderstanding, it's nearly everyone. I've copied and pasted a post I made about this once already to respond to a refuse thread, but now I'm thinking that I might need to give that pasted post its own thread.

Most of you "refuse" guys think that anything but refuse is letting the Catalyst dictate the terms? No, that's not how it worked. The Crucible was forcing him to relay information whether he liked it or not, even forcing him to bring up the destroy option when it was the number 1 thing he DIDN'T want chosen... And even explain how to doit. He also hated control, but was forced to mention it too. He didn't have a say in anything. If I decide to choose destroy or control, the best he can do is whine about it because he has absolutely no recourse to stop me. He can't even try a lie of omission, because the Crucible wasn't letting him do that either.

He didn't help you by choice, he didn't want to, gave you options he despised and told you how to do it regardless of his opinions, and was even forced to bring you up on that elevator at the control panel (the fact that he acts really really ticked off when he does this a low EMS is proof of that, because why else would he bring you up if he didn't even want you up there to begin with?). He was 100% at your mercy, being forced to do what you and the Crucible demanded.

That is also why refuse shuts down the Crucible. The Crucible was linked with you, and was doing what you asked it to. From the moment you touched the control panel, it was doing what your mind told it to. When yourefuse, you're pretty much telling the Crucible to shut down. It's asking you through the Catalyst "what do you wish this program to perform?", and refusing is like you clicking cancel. Think of it as a computer, you have an EXE file (a non-virus one, before someone gets cute) asking what you wish to do and refusing is you clicking to cancel the file altogether. The moment you did that, the Catalyst stopped being controlled by the Crucible and regained full control of himself, which is why he's suddenly talking like a Reaper and making it clear that he's going to keep killing everyone, you handed the choice back to the Reapers by choice because of refusing. Refusing is telling the Crucible to shut down and allowing the Catalyst to regain control... Which is why it's such a supremely stupid choice. So when the Crucible asks what function you want done, give it a real answer, don't close the program out of fear.

Refusers, you had the control of the Crucible and the Catalyst in your hands, and politely handed it back to the Catalyst by shutting the Crucible down. Epic "derp" moment right there. You had total control, was the one dictating the terms of how this encounter was going to go down, had the full house of cards to your chest... And responded by deciding to release control, let the Catalyst dictate instead, and folded the hand of cards you had. Good job.

Bottom line, the Catalyst was a scared litte b**ch who could at best use some word manipulation to try to coerce you into picking the option he preferred... Or do something supremely stupid and reject the Crucible by mentally rejecting it either by saying it out loud as you thought it in your head or by shooting the Crucible's current mouthpiece. Make no mistake, destroy is the very last thing he wants. When you go up there with low EMS and destroy is the only option, he's sounds really angry. That anger is because he knows that he doesn't even have a chance to avoiding destroy, there's no options but that. Yet he still has to bring you up there even though you coming up angers him so much. Kind of telling actually (doesn't want you up there=brings you up anyway=clearly not a being in control of themselves).


Now, I know this thread isn't going to somehow make this false idea that the Catalyst is in control of the conversation. But if it makes even a few less posts happen saying that then before this thread, it was worth it.

Note that the formatting might be messed up for a few minutes into this thread's creation. Pasting stuff on this forum screws the formatting like crazy 9 times out of 10. I'll fix it if it does, but early clickers might see a disaster of formatting.

 
 

Uncle Jo -

So he brings you up on that elevator on low EMS even though he doesn't want you anywhere near him because he knows destroy will be what you're going to do? That's logical to you? He's also going to bring up destroy and control, 2 things he absolutely detests, even though he could have just lied and said that those weren't options? Heck, with control he's pretty much "I don't want to be replaced or controlled by YOU!" and Shepard's pretty much "suck it up, I don't give a damn what your opinion is, control it is".

But of course, the Catalyst is somehow choosing to do thing he hates and has no reason to do whatsoever, and won the moment you collapsed at the control panel. That was it, gameover, Reapers win. So why bring you up, if he's not being forced to?

Frankly your stance has much more glaring flaws and holes then what my stance. There are inconsistencies that simply cannot be argued around if your stance is that the Catalyst has the control and is the one dictating the "terms".

Ticonderoga117-

The Catalyst is the processor of the Citadel, and the Crucible pretty much hacks it when it docks. It took control of the Catalyst by proxy of controlling the Citadel. Hack the Citadel=hack the Catalyst. Prior knowledge of the Catalyst was not needed, controlling one is controlling the other. It was forcing the Citadel to give you the information on the different options, and the Catalyst just happened to be the mouthpiece for it because it's pretty much the mind and voice of the station. He became the interface of the Crucible.

 
 
 

"Edit: That said, I don't agree with the idea of a "mental connection" between Shepard and the Crucible though. That just doesn't make any sense and sounds closer to fanfiction than an actual explanation of the nonsensical Catalyst drivel that we get in ME3."

Maybe. I do think though that seeing as the Catalyst and Crucible are linked by that point, that rejecting the Crucible by rejecting the options listed by the hacked-Catalyst is what shuts it off. The catalyst doesn't shut it off, it he could do that himself, he would on low EMS (if the only option is destroy and... Destroy, no way would he even give you a chance to use it at all). That's how I know that Shepard is the one that shuts it down with rejection. The mind link thing is just my idea of HOW Shepard turns it off. The question isn't who shuts it off in refuse, it's Shepard and it's obvious. What the question actually is, is how exactly does the it happen in the case of Shepard rejecting all the Crucible options.

Still, there is another explanation. If the Catalyst and Crucible are linked, which they are, then the Catalyst would be the ears of the Crucible too and not just a mouthpiece. Which is to say, the Crucible was listening to Shepard through the Catalyst, so when you tell it to shove off, the Crucible does exactly what it heard you tell it to do audibly. Same with shooting, shooting the Catalyst was seen as a rejection to all options, at which point it just shuts down because there's no point in staying on.

Think of the Catalyst as the eyes, ears, and mouth for the Crucible. Tell it no, and it obeys and shuts off. Shooting it is also a rejection, as it reads into your motives as that being your decision in the event you do that.

 
Click the link to see the context of all this, the topic is still there. Hell, it's not even locked which means you can still post (which made it easy to quote my own posts for this one).
 
edit: I found something else from around this time. I brought this up in someone else's thread like I did now, and someone asked for proof. I made this post in reply.
 
 

As proven by logic and facts. The catalyst brings you up on that elevator on low EMS even though it doesn't want you anywhere near him because it knows destroy will be what you're going to do. It also personally brings up destroy and control himself without prodding, 2 things it absolutely detests, even though it could have just lied and said that those weren't options or just not mention them at all. Heck, with control it's pretty much "I don't want to be replaced or controlled by YOU!" and Shepard's pretty much "suck it up, I don't give a damn what your opinion is, control it is".

If the Catalyst wasn't being controlled, then the Catalyst is choosing to do thing it hates and has no reason to do whatsoever. Moreover, it won the moment you collapsed at the control panel. That was it, gameover, Reapers win. So why bring you up, if it's not being forced to? Especially when it doesn't even WANT you up there.

I'm not actually entirely sure how the Crucible actually does hack the Catalyst. But it's irrelevant in the end. The fact is, the Catalyst is acting like someone who is being forced to say and do things again their will. His actions don't make sense and in fact contradict themselves (bringing you up and then being mad that it brought you up like it's your fault). Saying self destructive things that are, at best, going to ruin everything it's done for the last hundreds of trillions of years (bringing up destroy all by himself). The Reaper's are trying (and succeed if you waste time) to destroy the Crucible the entire time you're talking and deciding proving that it really doesn't like the Crucible even if his WORDS say otherwise. The sudden changing of its personality and actions the moment you decide you won't pick any of the Crucibles options, it going from "I have new possibilities I wish to politely discuss with you" to "I win, you all DIE" in the span of a few seconds as if it was freed of mind control (much like the fast personality change of people when controlled by Leviathan to after the control is broken).


All signs point to it being in no control over itself. The crucible hacking it is the ONLY explanation that makes its contradictory words and actions and oddities make sense. How it does it, I don't 100% know. But DOES it do it? All evidence and logic points to yes. Like my computer or something, I know it works based on logic and evidence even if I don't really understand HOW it works.

[kal_reegar]

Even if we go with the catalyst has no ability to control anything on the Citadel this makes no sense.

They are actually shooting the Crucible. It´s a sturdy but still breakable piece of machinery. If EMS is lower, they knock synthesis from the table during the flight. Calling a bunch of Reaper ground forces making a lot of noise downstairs would be a safer bet. The beam is secured again by the Reapers. You can call them in, if you actually have nothing else around your C&C on the space fortress which hasn´t been a 100% secured. 

The Catalyst wouldn´t need to tell Shepard anything and Shep would have no clue what to do. It could tell Shep what it wants and Shep has nothing else as a clue.

The chamber is outside. If the Catalyst has clear preferences, it could simply disagree by letting a Reaper or Occulus shoot Shep.

 

 

but the catalyst has clear preferences, and they are synthesis (let's use shepard "readiness" to upgrade every form of life) > control (let's use shepard "readiness" to upgrade myself and patronize the galaxy) > destroy (you're are 99,99% screwed, but let's bet on this somehow "special" cycle. This cycle can also reset AI for the first time with the Crucible, let's see how it works) > refusal (you're 100,00% screwed, I'll continue the cycle because it's better than doing nothing, but it won't work for long).

 

There is little time, perhaps the crucible is damaged, perhaps has limited time before overload or something like that, perhaps it will be hit by some stray bullets (are the Reapers directly attacking the crucible when Shepard is talking to the catalyst? I don't remember exactly) and only Shepard can act in few minutes (and only him can make the two better option - synthesis and control - possible)

If Shepard refuse to act, and choose refusal... well the catalsyst did exactly what you say... the Reapers kill everybody.

 

 

 

Besides, we don't know "how much" the catalyst can influence/coordinate the reapers. The Sheparlyst seems to have full control, but this is after the blue space magic: what about the catalyst 1.0? We don't know.

We know that he embodies the collective intelligence of the reapers, but are there limits to this kind of influnce? Maybe there are. Sovering claimed it's own independence, after all.

 

Let's hypothesize that the catalyst has limited control over the Reapers. He can somehow influence them, yes, but let's say that they are not his puppet. Something like a very powerful media vs the mass.

One characteristic of the swarm/collective intelligence is that "The agents follow very simple rules, and although there is no centralized control structure dictating how individual agents should behave, local, and to a certain degree random, interactions between such agents lead to the emergence of "intelligent" global behavior, unknown to the individual agents. ".

So the individual reaper maybe doesn't even realize that "the variables have been changed" "there are new possibilities etc". Consequentely, the reapers will continue to fight and kill, even after the crucible docked on the citadel.

They have been created with a simple task and they follow very simple rules (harvest everybody, than go back in the dark space, wait the signal, than harvest everybody again, etc, for ever and ever) The collective intelligence (catalyst) realize that this course of action is no longer possible, but maybe he cannot stop each one of them. Maybe he cannot alter the reapers core rule. They've been created for a purpose, and they cannot divert from that purpose. Unless, some space magic (crucible) is used.

So the reapers must be "upgraded/brainwashed" (new form of life, new core rule), controlled (this time, fully and directly, by the sheparlyst) or destroyed.

Otherwise, they will continue the cycle, individually unconscious of their future, inevitable defeat.

[Natureguy85]

but the catalyst has clear preferences, and they are synthesis (let's use shepard "readiness" to upgrade every form of life) > control (let's use shepard "readiness" to upgrade myself and patronize the galaxy) > destroy (you're are 99,99% screwed, but let's bet on this somehow "special" cycle. This cycle can also reset AI for the first time with the Crucible, let's see how it works) > refusal (you're 100,00% screwed, I'll continue the cycle because it's better than doing nothing, but it won't work for long).

 

There is little time, perhaps the crucible is damaged, perhaps has limited time before overload or something like that, perhaps it will be hit by some stray bullets (are the Reapers directly attacking the crucible when Shepard is talking to the catalyst? I don't remember exactly) and only Shepard can act in few minutes (and only him can make the two better option - synthesis and control - possible)

If Shepard refuse to act, and choose refusal... well the catalsyst did exactly what you say... the Reapers kill everybody.

 

 

 

Besides, we don't know "how much" the catalyst can influence/coordinate the reapers. The Sheparlyst seems to have full control, but this is after the blue space magic: what about the catalyst 1.0? We don't know.

We know that he embodies the collective intelligence of the reapers, but are there limits to this kind of influnce? Maybe there are. Sovering claimed it's own independence, after all.

 

Let's hypothesize that the catalyst has limited control over the Reapers. He can somehow influence them, yes, but let's say that they are not his puppet. Something like a very powerful media vs the mass.

One characteristic of the swarm/collective intelligence is that "The agents follow very simple rules, and although there is no centralized control structure dictating how individual agents should behave, local, and to a certain degree random, interactions between such agents lead to the emergence of "intelligent" global behavior, unknown to the individual agents. ".

So the individual reaper maybe doesn't even realize that "the variables have been changed" "there are new possibilities etc". Consequentely, the reapers will continue to fight and kill, even after the crucible docked on the citadel.

They have been created with a simple task and they follow very simple rules (harvest everybody, than go back in the dark space, wait the signal, than harvest everybody again, etc, for ever and ever) The collective intelligence (catalyst) realize that this course of action is no longer possible, but maybe he cannot stop each one of them. Maybe he cannot alter the reapers core rule. They've been created for a purpose, and they cannot divert from that purpose. Unless, some space magic (crucible) is used.

So the reapers must be "upgraded/brainwashed" (new form of life, new core rule), controlled (this time, fully and directly, by the sheparlyst) or destroyed.

Otherwise, they will continue the cycle, individually unconscious of their future, inevitable defeat.

 

The sheer amount you have to guess/ make up about the Reapers there in order to make the ending make sense should be a huge red flag to everyone.

[kal_reegar]

The sheer amount you have to guess/ make up about the Reapers there in order to make the ending make sense should be a huge red flag to everyone.

 

ahaha true.

It's like the wheel of fortune. They've given us a few letters (we know very little about the reapers and the catalyst), and we must guess a reasonable and fitting sentence.

 

The only thing I don't understand is why a lot of very competent and intelligent fan preferer to point out all the holes, and not trying to fill them after.

We all agree about pars destruens (the ending is poorly written, it leave too many questions open, it very difficult to put all the pieces together without contradictions )... but I think it would be cool if the same amount of energy and thoughts was invested in the pars costruens

[Natureguy85]

ahaha true.

It's like the wheel of fortune. They've given us a few letters (we know very little about the reapers and the catalyst), and we must guess a reasonable and fitting sentence.

 

The only thing I don't understand is why a lot of very competent and intelligent fan preferer to point out all the holes, and not trying to fill them after.

We all agree about pars destruens (the ending is poorly written, it leave too many questions open, it very difficult to put all the pieces together without contradictions )... but I think it would be cool if the same amount of energy and thoughts was invested in the pars costruens

 

Simple; that was the writer's job. Now, if you want to say "here's my head canon to make it make sense," that's fine as long as we're both honest about exactly what we're doing. However, I tend to see it more as polishing a turd than filling holes.

[kal_reegar]

Simple; that was the writer's job. Now, if you want to say "here's my head canon to make it make sense," that's fine as long as we're both honest about exactly what we're doing. However, I tend to see it more as polishing a turd than filling holes.

 

well, sadly the writers will never give us the answers we want

they gave us some more "letters" with the EC, but we still need to fill a lot of holes on our own.

I find it an enjoyable activity, anyway... talking with other fan, reconsidering options or trying new solutions, constantly reshaping headcanon interpretation, seeking to improve internal consistency... 

 

 

For example, andy6915 hacking theory is good imho, and I've uptade my headcanon interpretation with the new possibility we discuss today (collective intelligence and individual ignorance inside the swarm) to see if it works

 

 

 

Spoiler

1. THE CATALYST

 

1a. The Catalyst is an advanced AI, and it was created by the Leviathans in order to solve the “chaos problem” (synthetcs-organics conflict, technological singularity etc).

 

The Reapers are its current solution.

 

1b. The Catalyst built the Reapers and embodies their collective intelligence , but the Reapers are not it's "puppets": collective intelligence doesn't imply a direct control over each individual. So, even if the Catalyst can somehow influence the Reapers fleet, every single reaper mantain specific individuality and authonomy, as Sovereing said in ME.

 

1c. The Catalyst doens't direclty and fully control the Citadel. Not the arms and the mass-relay, at least. Maybe it used to control it/them through the keepers, but in this case the prothean scientist from Ilos somehow broke this connction. We never see the Catalyst directly controlling anything, except for the elevator, even when it would have been useful for its purposes. The Catalyst need Saren, the Sovereign, Cerberus, Tim and finally Shepard to perform “material” operations.

 

1.d. The Catalyst is unable to control the Crucible, too. Referring to the possibile choices that the Crucible provides, it says "I can't make it happen". So we can be almost certain that it needs Shepard to use the Crucible.

 

So we can summarize the previous point in one general statement: the Catalyst is incapable of complex, direct, material actions.

 

 

2. THE CRUCIBLE

The Crucible is, according to the Catalyst, little more than a rude power source (from the Catalyst point of view, at least), but in combination with the citadel it is capable of realising a huge amount of energy. So, it's not an hacking device or something similar, just a powerful weapon of mass destruction.

We don't know who designed it (very likely not the Leviathans, because the Catalyst says, reffering to the Crucible designers, "you wouldn't know them" -> and Shepard knows the Leviathans).

We only know that its design evolved many times.

 

 

3. THE CRUCIBLE DOCKING

 

This is the crucial moment. Once the Crucible docked, Shepard is brought in front of the Catalyst. The Crucible is not working.

The 1 million dollars question is: why the Catalyst doesn't shut of the Crucible or, if it can't “personally” do that (after all, we have said that he is probably incapable of direct, material action), why doesn't it simply wait and than continue the cycle?

The Reapers are trying to destroy the Crucible, and if Shepard wait too long, tha game over screen is "the Crucible has been destroyed".  So, why does the Catalyst seem to strongly desire that the crubile is not only preserved, but also quickly activated ?

 

 

The answer to this question is resumable in one sentece: the variables have been altered.

 

More specifically:

 

a. Its solution (the Reapers) won't work anymore.

The Crucible has been proven possible and a real threat, that its mere existence as a tangible object - and not a dreamy idea - changes things completely because one day the Reapers will be defeated by it (and refusal ending proves it -> Liara's warning beacon will work and the stargazer will confirm that "the Reapers are no longer a threat").

Even if the Crucible is not used, or destroyed, the Reapers days are done, because they will be defeated by the next cycle. They can complete this cycle, but not the next one.

Individyally, the Reapers probably don't realize that, and so they keep on fighting and attacking the Crucible; but the Catalyst knows that it is pointless (one characteristic of the swarm/collective intelligence is that "the agents follow very simple rules, and although there is no centralized control structure dictating how individual agents should behave, local, and to a certain degree random, interactions between such agents lead to the emergence of "intelligent" global behavior, unknown to the individual agents).

The Reapers have been created with a simple task, and they follow very simple rules (harvest everybody, than go back in the dark space, wait 50.000 years, than harvest everybody again, for ever and ever) The collective intelligence (the Catalyst) realizes that this course of action is no longer possible, but it cannot stop them. It cannot alter the Reapers core rules. The Reapers have've been created for a purpose, and they cannot individually divert from that purpose, even if this will lead them to the ultimate failure. Unless the Crucible is used.

 

 

b. The Crucible changed the Catalyst, created new possibilities.

Its original solution won't work anymore, but new solutions are now available. All of them are better than the Reapers.

- Synthesis: do I really need to explain why this is the perfect solution from the Catalyst point of view? (N.B. for the Catalyst this is the only true solution; the other options are both a makeshif at best, the lesser evil)

- Control: the Catalayst can be "upgraded" with a new Catalyst 2.0 (the Sheparlyst) and, thanks to Shepard's memories, consciousness, readiness etc, they can become somehow more effective, adapter to their new task of “peace-keeping”. He can probably achieve full control over the all Reapers, and patronize/guard the galaxy with them.

- Destroy: this cycle has proven itself worthy/ready, somehow special, and since Crucible is a weapon that can destroy every single syntetic organism in the galaxy in few minutes, the organics of this “exceptional” cycle have proven that they can virtually deal with the synthetics threat (or, at least, a little better and/or alittle longer than the Reapers and/or other less special cycles).

 

This is why the Catalyst helps shepard, gives him information, doesn't shut off the Crucible and/or simply wait the Crucible being blasted by the Reapers.

The variables have been altered, and both Shepard and the Catalyst need the Crucible to be activated, if they want to achive their goals.

The Crucible docking, from the Catalyst point of view, can be seen as the famous "last straw" (the Catalyst finally acknowldge that the process, started with the prothean scientist of Ilos, is no longer reversible). Something very close to what Legion say about the heretics ""An equation with a result of 1.33382 returns as 1.33381. This changes the result of all higher processes. We will reach different conclusions". A little difference with huge consequences.

So the Catalyst want the Crucible to be used before it is destroyed, and he needs Shepard to do so.

 

In conclusion,

a ) IF the Catalyst is incapable of direct, material actions

and

b ) IF the docking of the Crucible has

- demonstrated that the Reaper-cycle solution won't work anymore

- provided better options

 

THAN the Catalyst actions (and me3 ending) make some sort of sense.

 

 

[andy6915]

For example, andy6915 hacking theory is good imho, and I've uptade my headcanon interpretation with the new possibility we discuss today (collective intelligence and individual ignorance inside the swarm) to see if it works

 

While I disagree with your conclusion in the spoiler (I obviously go with my own conclusion about the hacking), I'm glad somebody actually noted it. I was feeling rather ignored there for a bit .

[Reorte]

well, sadly the writers will never give us the answers we want

they gave us some more "letters" with the EC, but we still need to fill a lot of holes on our own.

I find it an enjoyable activity, anyway... talking with other fan, reconsidering options or trying new solutions, constantly reshaping headcanon interpretation, seeking to improve internal consistency...

It can be if the holes aren't too big that they haven't rather spoiled the fun of it all for you. Even if it hasn't fleshing out the details and adding in background stuff in my head is more pleasurable than fixing mistakes.

[Dantriges]

There is little time, perhaps the crucible is damaged, perhaps has limited time before overload or something like that, perhaps it will be hit by some stray bullets (are the Reapers directly attacking the crucible when Shepard is talking to the catalyst? I don't remember exactly) and only Shepard can act in few minutes (and only him can make the two better option - synthesis and control - possible)

 

Perhaps a genie comes by and grants us three wishes.   Well, what Natureguy said.

You only get a message the Reapers destroyed the Crucible. IIRC it´s when you switch from one path to another or so. Seems the Reapers have a "no backsies" rule or so.

 

 

Besides, we don't know "how much" the catalyst can influence/coordinate the reapers. The Sheparlyst seems to have full control, but this is after the blue space magic: what about the catalyst 1.0?

 

I assume the Reapers discovered the benefits of using communication devices. "Could please someone blast Shepard in case they chose destroy," is an easy command.

[kal_reegar]

 

 

I assume the Reapers discovered the benefits of using communication devices. "Could please someone blast Shepard in case they chose destroy," is an easy command.

 

but the catalyst prefers the destruction of its own kind rather than blasting the crucible and continuing the cycle (which is exactly refusal ending)

 

If Shepard doesn't choose synthesis or control, reapers are done. Finished. Game over. No matter what. My solution won't work anymore (cit). The reapers are no longer a threat (cit). Sounds unlikely? Maybe, but this is one of the few, incontestably clear things of ME3 ending.

So, in the end, the choiche is between

1) to allow this cycle to use the crucible, reset technology and have a new fresh start

2) to postpone this inevitable moment to the next cycle

The catalyst has no faith in organic, but he seems to believe that this cycle has a better chance in this scenario. We can only speculate about the reasons that lead the catalyst to believe that this cycle is somehow "fitter" to deal with the synth problem than the next cycle, but he might have good reasons.

[Natureguy85]

I find it an enjoyable activity, anyway... talking with other fan, reconsidering options or trying new solutions, constantly reshaping headcanon interpretation, seeking to improve internal consistency...

And that's a matter of taste. I prefer to play the role of editor and figure out how to rewrite it to be better. It doesn't salvage Mass Effect, but it helps us learn from it and do better in the future.

[gothpunkboy89]

While I disagree with your conclusion in the spoiler (I obviously go with my own conclusion about the hacking), I'm glad somebody actually noted it. I was feeling rather ignored there for a bit .

 

 

But how it it hacked?

 

The Crucible is just an energy generation. It would need at least an AI level intelligence build into it to allow it to force another AI to do anything.

[andy6915]

But how it it hacked?
 
The Crucible is just an energy generation. It would need at least an AI level intelligence build into it to allow it to force another AI to do anything.

 
You clearly didn't read everything, or you'd know that one of those self-quotes was responding to this exact question someone asked last time I brought it up.
 

As proven by logic and facts. The catalyst brings you up on that elevator on low EMS even though it doesn't want you anywhere near him because it knows destroy will be what you're going to do. It also personally brings up destroy and control himself without prodding, 2 things it absolutely detests, even though it could have just lied and said that those weren't options or just not mention them at all. Heck, with control it's pretty much "I don't want to be replaced or controlled by YOU!" and Shepard's pretty much "suck it up, I don't give a damn what your opinion is, control it is".

If the Catalyst wasn't being controlled, then the Catalyst is choosing to do thing it hates and has no reason to do whatsoever. Moreover, it won the moment you collapsed at the control panel. That was it, gameover, Reapers win. So why bring you up, if it's not being forced to? Especially when it doesn't even WANT you up there (not part of quote, addendum: remember how he angrily asks "What are you doing here?!" if you get brought up at low EMS, which is a weird question to ask to someone YOU brought up via the elevator, don't you think?).

I'm not actually entirely sure how the Crucible actually does hack the Catalyst. But it's irrelevant in the end. The fact is, the Catalyst is acting like someone who is being forced to say and do things again their will. His actions don't make sense and in fact contradict themselves (bringing you up and then being mad that it brought you up like it's your fault). Saying self destructive things that are, at best, going to ruin everything it's done for the last hundreds of trillions of years (bringing up destroy all by himself). The Reaper's are trying (and succeed if you waste time) to destroy the Crucible the entire time you're talking and deciding proving that it really doesn't like the Crucible even if his WORDS say otherwise. The sudden changing of its personality and actions the moment you decide you won't pick any of the Crucibles options, it going from "I have new possibilities I wish to politely discuss with you" to "I win, you all DIE" in the span of a few seconds as if it was freed of mind control (much like the fast personality change of people when controlled by Leviathan to after the control is broken).


All signs point to it being in no control over itself. The crucible hacking it is the ONLY explanation that makes its contradictory words and actions and oddities make sense. How it does it, I don't 100% know. But DOES it do it? All evidence and logic points to yes. Like my computer or something, I know it works based on logic and evidence even if I don't really understand HOW it works.

Call it a mere power source all you want, but that doesn't actually fit the facts. Fact is, the people building it still had no freaking clue what they were building. All they had was speculation. The fact that it can control the Citadel also adds to it, it can control the Citadel but not the AI that basically is the Citadel's avatar? Doesn't add up, the Citadel and Catalyst kid are connected, he's the software to the Citadel's hardware. You hack one, you hack both, and this is something I said in one of my self-quotes. Next time, read all of them before asking questions that were already asked and answered last time. Occams Razor and Howe's egg principle both fit this explanation. It acts in a self destructive and split-personality way when you talk to it, depending on your choices. It acts and says to do things that it then immediately says it hates the idea of, like control. Occam's Razor says the simplest explanation usually is the best, and Howe's principle says "If you leave an egg in an empty box and said egg gets crushed, the cause must lie within the egg itself. If you eliminate the impossible, whatever left, no matter how improbable it is, must be the truth". The hack of the Catalyst by the Crucible is just that, it's improbable but it's also the only explanation that explains the Catalyst's schizophrenic behavior ("let's have a friendly chat while I make sure to not order my Reapers to stop trying to destroy the very machine I'm acting like I want to use", "Why are you up here after I brought you up here?!", "I brought you up despite knowing destroy is the only option and I think that AI will just wipe you out eventually, so I'll bring you up and explain how to do the destroy function even though I think it's a massive mistake", "You denied the choices so now I'm suddenly going to have a personality change and speak with a Reaper voice and tell you in a satisfied tone that I'm going to keep killing everyone after all").

[simonrana]

They are connected loosely by being in the same galaxy and involving the same characters. The actual plot is a disconnected mess.

ME1 established the Reapers and that they were coming to kill everyone. Sovereign had nothing but contempt for both Organic life and the Geth. It ends with the destruction of Sovereign and Shepard's promise to find a way to beat the Reapers. This left the door wide open for a sequel.

ME2 gave us a new opponent with a minimal connection to the Reapers whose actions and existence didn't make much sense in light of the first game. Cerberus was elevated to prominence for no real reason. We learned little and were no closer to defeating the Reapers at the end than at the beginning. That the Collectors were the Protheans didn't add much. Sure, it is horrific, but the Reapers were already our enemies and we had reason enough to oppose them. Arrival bought the galaxy a few months after they had done nothing for two years. They did little in those months and certainly weren't prepared.

ME3 further elevated Cerberus and changed the focus from "stop the Reapers to Save the Galaxy" to "save Earth." They introduced a mysterious plot device but didn't let us explore or learn about it. Long time plot threads like the Genophage and Rannoch were resolved, but those were not the main plot.

The ending tried to tell us that the Reapers were actually serving a good purpose. Thanks, but no thanks. Destroy.

The Catalyst doesn't fit at all with Sovereign. He had contempt for Organics There was no interest in saving or preserving them.

ME3 and even Arrival made the main plot of ME2 even more pointless. The Reapers needed only a few months to get in and start their invasion. In fact it really hurts ME1 as well. What's 2.5 years to the Reapers? Why the hurry with Sovereign or the Collectors? Ok, so the Citadel didn't open. Just fly in and do the Harvest.

I love you!

[andy6915]

Double post, but I made a lot of edits to that last post. If you read it before the edits were, done, you might want to check the post again to see if you missed an edit.

edit: Oh, hey, someone posted before me. So it's not a double post.

[Addictress]

I choose Syntheses most of the time, as it ceases hostility and also solves the overpopulation concerns of the Krogan. Destroy simply repeats the cycle without synthetics, and hampers the extent cultures until they can remake them, Dominate is too reliant on whether Spirit Shepard can remain objective, and not go all Renegade over every race for some perceived sleight.

Also I get the jibblies thinking Shepard might start omnipresently stalking or haunting the dreams and/or thoughts of their love interest =/ and visit them through reaper-tech-controlled bodies of any sort.

 

I mean if Reapers can control bodies, if Shepard controls Reapers, then.... Shepard could kind of take control of some random body and then stalk their love interest, right?

[Natureguy85]

 
You clearly didn't read everything, or you'd know that one of those self-quotes was responding to this exact question someone asked last time I brought it up.
 


Call it a mere power source all you want, but that doesn't actually fit the facts. Fact is, the people building it still had no freaking clue what they were building. All they had was speculation. The fact that it can control the Citadel also adds to it, it can control the Citadel but not the AI that basically is the Citadel's avatar? Doesn't add up, the Citadel and Catalyst kid are connected, he's the software to the Citadel's hardware. You hack one, you hack both, and this is something I said in one of my self-quotes. Next time, read all of them before asking questions that were already asked and answered last time. Occams Razor and Howe's egg principle both fit this explanation. It acts in a self destructive and split-personality way when you talk to it, depending on your choices. It acts and says to do things that it then immediately says it hates the idea of, like control. Occam's Razor says the simplest explanation usually is the best, and Howe's principle says "If you leave an egg in an empty box and said egg gets crushed, the cause must lie within the egg itself. If you eliminate the impossible, whatever left, no matter how improbable it is, must be the truth". The hack of the Catalyst by the Crucible is just that, it's improbable but it's also the only explanation that explains the Catalyst's schizophrenic behavior ("let's have a friendly chat while I make sure to not order my Reapers to stop trying to destroy the very machine I'm acting like I want to use", "Why are you up here after I brought you up here?!", "I brought you up despite knowing destroy is the only option and I think that AI will just wipe you out eventually, so I'll bring you up and explain how to do the destroy function even though I think it's a massive mistake", "You denied the choices so now I'm suddenly going to have a personality change and speak with a Reaper voice and tell you in a satisfied tone that I'm going to keep killing everyone after all").

 

Actually Occam's Razor tells you that the writing just sucks and makes no sense. The Catalyst tells you the Crucible is little more than a power source. We as the player, through meta-gaming, know that everything the Catalyst says is true because its sole purpose is to deliver exposition and frame the ending choices for you to decide. Maybe I forgot but where does the Crucible control the Citadel? It just docks with it. The devices activated by Shepard are on the Citadel, so if anything, it is the Citadel that makes the Crucible fire.

 

Also, recall that Vendetta says he Citadel itself is the Catalyst. That makes more sense for what we were initially told about the Crucible needing the Catalyst. Were any of the prior cycles aware of the Catalyst? If so, how? As you said, the prior species had no idea what they were building, so how did they make it to hack a thing they didn't know existed?

 

The hack idea is a creative and interesting interpretation for why the Catalyst reveals all that it does, particularly for lower EMS. The best explanation once Synthesis is available is that Synthesis "is not a thing that can be forced" and for Shepard to choose it, he must have alternatives. However, there are problems, such as the one above and some of your explanations don't hold water.

 

How did touching the control panel on the Citadel make the Crucible obey Shepard's mind, particularly when the Crucible hadn't docked yet?

 

I went back and watched low EMS destroy. I like how the Catalyst sounds less benevolent toward Organics with the "you bring it on yourselves" line. it makes him sound more like Sovereign, the best Reaper. He also is more definitive that "The Reapers are mine. I control them," harming the idea proposed earlier here that it doesn't have direct control over the Reapers. However, notice how all of his animosity goes away as they get to a point where they just use the same audio as high EMS. However, Shepard doesn't ask for another option and s/he will in higher EMS. The best line in Low EMS is Shepard telling the Catalyst "we'll take our chances."

[BloodyMares]

I mean if Reapers can control bodies, if Shepard controls Reapers, then.... Shepard could kind of take control of some random body and then stalk their love interest, right?

They can't control random bodies. This body needs to be implanted with Reaper tech that makes the control possible.