I saw it.
Even disregarding DLC Thessia makes it very clear.
Yes, and that's late a decent time, if not just a little late, for ME3 but way too late for the series.
It was also just one part of a conversation. Did any other characters ever talk about it again?
Yes, and that's late a decent time, if not just a little late, for ME3 but way too late for the series.
It was also just one part of a conversation. Did any other characters ever talk about it again?
How many Reapers do we talk with across the entire trilogy? Baring DLC which explains everything the only information we know about the Reapers is based on rumors from Protheans or what they out right tell us. With the vast majority of data about them coming from the Catalyst it self.
They are a mystery wrapped in an enigma. For the trilogy it is actually very well fitting Thessia which represents the peak of events in the game makes sense. Story wise right after Thessia you go right into attacking Cerberus. Finding out were their base is and attacking them before they can interfere with the Crucible plans.
How many Reapers do we talk with across the entire trilogy? Baring DLC which explains everything the only information we know about the Reapers is based on rumors from Protheans or what they out right tell us. With the vast majority of data about them coming from the Catalyst it self.
They are a mystery wrapped in an enigma. For the trilogy it is actually very well fitting Thessia which represents the peak of events in the game makes sense. Story wise right after Thessia you go right into attacking Cerberus. Finding out were their base is and attacking them before they can interfere with the Crucible plans.
We talk with 3. Sovereign tells us a lot, though he is purposely vague and arrogant. In Mass Effect, everything Vigil said was true, not because the character knew, but because that was his role in the story. Vigil's primary mechanical role in the story is to relay that information. We're talking about story structure, not plot now. This is the same reason I know everything the Catalyst says is true. Like Vigil, his main purpose is to tell you, the player, those things. Both Vigil and the Catalyst are there to inform the player perhaps more so than the characters.
That's not to say they can't contradict Vigil or change things, but they have to do it right, the most important part of that being the characters reacting to the new information. This never happens in Mass Effect.
Thessia is a turning point, not really a peak. It's similar to Horizon, though the Abduction might be a better comparison. Thessia itself was them interfering with the Crucible plans (as was Mars, actually) so it's a bit late for doing anything before they can do so. Anyway, there should have been multiple hints and breadcrumbs along the way, not one line from a VI that is never discussed later. Do they even bring it up to Vendetta when they meet him again?
We talk with 3. Sovereign tells us a lot, though he is purposely vague and arrogant. In Mass Effect, everything Vigil said was true, not because the character knew, but because that was his role in the story. Vigil's primary mechanical role in the story is to relay that information. We're talking about story structure, not plot now. This is the same reason I know everything the Catalyst says is true. Like Vigil, his main purpose is to tell you, the player, those things. Both Vigil and the Catalyst are there to inform the player perhaps more so than the characters.
That's not to say they can't contradict Vigil or change things, but they have to do it right, the most important part of that being the characters reacting to the new information. This never happens in Mass Effect.
Thessia is a turning point, not really a peak. It's similar to Horizon, though the Abduction might be a better comparison. Thessia itself was them interfering with the Crucible plans (as was Mars, actually) so it's a bit late for doing anything before they can do so. Anyway, there should have been multiple hints and breadcrumbs along the way, not one line from a VI that is never discussed later. Do they even bring it up to Vendetta when they meet him again?
Vigil contradicts himself. The Reapers can not be trapped in darkspace without a way to get into dark space to start with. This is a lot like people from the 1700's claiming someone was trapped on the moon. They can not be on the moon if they don't have an ability to get to it. Catalyst doesn't really contradict it self all that much. There is some and the degree depends on your own personal view point. But not quite to the degree of claiming the Reapers can reach dark space but are incapable of returning on their own.
The character dose react to the new information.
Thessia is the peak you learn that the actions happening in this cycle has happened before. That the group that wanted to control the Reapers turned out to be indoctrinated. All the hints and half truths up to this point are confirmed. From this point on it is the slow downwards towards the ending. You learn nothing more on Horizon other then seeing the scale of what TIM was doing to people. Which you already knew about from Priority Mars mission.
What breadcrumbs? The entire set up of the Reapers is they leave no trace of themselves. Leaving what archeological evidence behind from last cycles that makes them more myth then reality. The 3 Reapers we talk to are very vague and don't give a lot of information. Because it would be pointless to do so from their perspective.
Why is a number of your complaints about stuff like this always based on the fact you seem to think everyone is or at least should be treated like some sort of idiot who can't connect the dots in their own mind and thus must have everything spelt out for them in the most obvious way possible?
Vigil contradicts himself. The Reapers can not be trapped in darkspace without a way to get into dark space to start with. This is a lot like people from the 1700's claiming someone was trapped on the moon. They can not be on the moon if they don't have an ability to get to it. Catalyst doesn't really contradict it self all that much. There is some and the degree depends on your own personal view point. But not quite to the degree of claiming the Reapers can reach dark space but are incapable of returning on their own.
The character dose react to the new information.
https://www.youtube....h?v=U_6-x3qbwMo
The characters spend more time discussing the Asari hiding the beacon than the repetition of the cycle. They spend as much time on the recurrence of the desire for Control than the existence of the "master." But we already knew there were patterns in the cycles by design and it was not really heidegger that TIM was Indoctrinated. I knew from Mars. Having this confirmation isn't bad though.Thessia is the peak you learn that the actions happening in this cycle has happened before. That the group that wanted to control the Reapers turned out to be indoctrinated. All the hints and half truths up to this point are confirmed. From this point on it is the slow downwards towards the ending. You learn nothing more on Horizon other then seeing the scale of what TIM was doing to people. Which you already knew about from Priority Mars mission
What breadcrumbs? The entire set up of the Reapers is they leave no trace of themselves. Leaving what archeological evidence behind from last cycles that makes them more myth then reality. The 3 Reapers we talk to are very vague and don't give a lot of information. Because it would be pointless to do so from their perspective.
Well your posts show that's the case for you, but really it's just that I know proper storytelling and you don't. You just accept whatever is thrown in front of you and yet act like you figured things out so you can tell everyone else how smart you are. Just so you know, it isn't working.Why is a number of your complaints about stuff like this always based on the fact you seem to think everyone is or at least should be treated like some sort of idiot who can't connect the dots in their own mind and thus must have everything spelt out for them in the most obvious way possible?
That's fridge logic, and wrong. You've never brought that up before so I'm sure you never thought of it at the time. You're just desperate for any possible argument to latch on to. The Reapers are ageless for all we know. They could fly out to dark space. I'm sure they can fly back, but it would take hundreds of years and use lots of energy. Maybe that first trip is why they need their naps. Maybe they had an earlier thrall species do it or a few Reapers went and built the relay for the rest to jump. It's not wrong to ask how they got there, but the answer isn't important. The Reapers depend on surprise and dividing their enemy/prey.
Oh I've thought of it plenty of times. I just figured it was pretty elementary thought that everyone would have thus didn't need to be brought up. Apparently with you it does. Stating they are trapped in dark space without the Citadel is very very specific.
Trap: prevent (someone) from escaping from a place.
have (something, typically a part of the body) held tightly by something so that it cannot move or be freed.
While ME 2 shows them being ridiculously far out into dark space. The actual distance they would need to go is a couple dozen light years. Enough to put them out of range of any ship, satellite or free floating sensor around planets on the fringe of the galaxy. A week traveling at FTL speeds even the speed of the Alliance Craft would put them well beyond sensor range of any ship or satellite sensor on the edge of the galaxy. Make it a two week trip and they would be out in space were no one could find them but they would have only a couple of weeks needed to travel back to the galaxy and once they hit a single Relay they can then spread across the entire galaxy.
It takes only the slightest understanding of the game lore and how stuff like sensors aren't magical things that can detect ships on the other side of the galaxy. They have limitations and once you move beyond their limits you are effectively hidden. Now does the Relay help speed it up oh yes. But claiming they are trapped is a lot like claiming you will die unless you get that last cookie in the cookie jar. Their very existence is surprising and dividing. Even without the Citadel their sheer power and technological superiority did a damn good job of dividing the galaxy out of sheer self preservation.
Shepard just asks who the master is, Vendetta says he doesn't know and is only speculating, and they move on. What a revelation! It never comes up again until the Catalyst shows up and nobody cares going forward. Contrast, for example, the scene in The Matrix Reloaded where Neo tells Morpheus that the prophecy is actually part of the machines' plan. Morpheus is upset and in denial. He brings it up when he sees the Oracle again. This changed everything and characters cared. Not in Mass Effect. TIM could have said something about it on the Citadel or Cerberus base. Perhaps better, Shepard could have named it as a reason why the Control plan wouldn't work.
As a side note, Javik had am incredibly important line here. When the VI ask him if this cycle can beat the Reapers, he says that they have earned the right to try. This should have been repeated by Shepard to the Catalyst for why we don't want the Reapers and will deal with organic/synthetic conflict on our own. This would have been the Refuse ending, or at least part of Destroy.
I also like how Vendetta is about to shut down and gets right in Shepard's face when it asks "To what question?
Actually it is quite a revelations in context of the Reaper story. We know that they build the Citadel and the Relays. We know they appear every 50,000 years to harvest advanced races. We know that they turn the various races they harvest into a new Reaper. We get hints it has something to do with how organics develop. But we have no solid reasons. The revelation that there is a guiding intelligence behind the actions of the Reapers is pretty massive. It explains why they are doing it and sets it up later for the Catalyt's conversation about synthetic and organic conflict and why the Reapers exist in the first place.
The characters spend more time discussing the Asari hiding the beacon than the repetition of the cycle. They spend as much time on the recurrence of the desire for Control than the existence of the "master." But we already knew there were patterns in the cycles by design and it was not really heidegger that TIM was Indoctrinated. I knew from Mars. Having this confirmation isn't bad though.
Weren't they masking actual husks at Sanctuary? That's not the same as implanting soldiers. Actually controlling Reaper troop is a big deal, though a far cry from controlling actual Reapers.
Anyway, Thessia is not the climax. The Cerberus base is higher on the Rising Action. So are several events in Earth, topped off by the beam run.
Well at that point during the harvest who ever is controlling the Reapers is less of an importance. Because they are already in the middle of it and at that point who is controlling them is less important then stopping them. How ever the Asari hiding information like that is what set them up to be like this in the first place. Had they shared that information in the first place particularly after events with Sovereign the Galaxy would have been much better prepared.
We were already well aware that TIM was trying to control the Reapers from the the start of ME 3. Showing him only just able to control the lowest level Reaper isn't much new information.
Exactly, they left things behind. They don't do a very good clean up job. We killed Sovereign. It was a writing decision to make that only affect if one squadmate lives or dies in ME2. It was also a writing decision to have the council ignore it, reseting things to how they were before. We found a long dead Reaper. It was a writing decision to have us only get a circuit board for one plot point, albeit a major one for that game but not for the series. It was a writing decision for us to find a device that had been passed down from each cycle somehow and never investigate it except for Thessia. These were purposeful choices by the writers of the second and third games, not natural outcomes of the earlier story.
Hiding Javik behind a paywall and making him optimal, if still interesting, is likely Executive Meddling, so i don't like to drop that all on the writers.
The first game left the door wide open to make the next one be about exploration and discovery. There were many ways they could have handled this. Instead it was about shooting bug men.
Well what is left behind comes off a lot like a religions set up. I mean we on Earth believe in various deities and think that the end of the world would be brought on by them. Since the entire set up of the Protheans made it seem like they were the only advanced race the common theme of Reapers wouldn't seem out of place like a religious name for their respective deity and claimed to be the cause of their death.
The actions of the council in ME 2 actually make some sense. For a reason why I claim that simply look at USA and the many things we need to address to maybe help reduce if only slightly mass shootings from once a month to every other month. Like good gun control laws, increased funding and ability to enforce current ones, access to affordable mental and physical health care so people might be found and treated before they go off the deep end and kill 49 people. But all they do is pay some lip service then when the whole incident dies down they go back to doing jack ****** squat about the real underlying problems.
The Leviathan of Dis was originally found and covered up by the Batarians. We only get a single circuit because they show the direct effect of staying to long in the Reaper. It might be dead but it is still possible to cause mental deterioration due to undirected indoctrination effect. Game play wise there is no need for Shepard to stay in the Reaper any longer then necessary besides to get IFF. Crucible was never found till right at the end. It wasn't like the plan was found before and never investigated. As soon as it was found it was put into use.
Well your posts show that's the case for you, but really it's just that I know proper storytelling and you don't. You just accept whatever is thrown in front of you and yet act like you figured things out so you can tell everyone else how smart you are. Just so you know, it isn't working.
But you don't know it. Because you ignore a lot of stuff to suit your need. Case in point the fact the Reapers can not fully erase evidence of their actions. leaving behind some archeological evidence of their existence. You take as proof they fail and we should some how know more about them. But that ignores the fact that the way the Reapers would be represented would be set up like a theological deity passing judgement. Since very little information would be left behind people assuming they are a deity of some religion that the race followed and was used to describe their empire's destruction it make sense.
I think it comes off more you have trouble seeing what is thrown in front of you so you try to discredit what is shown and claim it makes no sense.
Anyway, Thessia is not the climax. The Cerberus base is higher on the Rising Action. So are several events in Earth, topped off by the beam run.
I have the strangest feeling, for some writers Chronos was the climax, Earth is just the epilogue where you hunt down the escaped villain. 
I have the strangest feeling, for some writers Chronos was the climax, Earth is just the epilogue where you hunt down the escaped villain.
Yeah, there's a case to be made for that. It's the climax of the Cerberus arc for sure and TIM and Cerberus were clearly more important to the writers than the Reapers.
Oh I've thought of it plenty of times. I just figured it was pretty elementary thought that everyone would have thus didn't need to be brought up. Apparently with you it does. Stating they are trapped in dark space without the Citadel is very very specific.
Trap: prevent (someone) from escaping from a place.
have (something, typically a part of the body) held tightly by something so that it cannot move or be freed.
While ME 2 shows them being ridiculously far out into dark space. The actual distance they would need to go is a couple dozen light years. Enough to put them out of range of any ship, satellite or free floating sensor around planets on the fringe of the galaxy. A week traveling at FTL speeds even the speed of the Alliance Craft would put them well beyond sensor range of any ship or satellite sensor on the edge of the galaxy. Make it a two week trip and they would be out in space were no one could find them but they would have only a couple of weeks needed to travel back to the galaxy and once they hit a single Relay they can then spread across the entire galaxy.
It takes only the slightest understanding of the game lore and how stuff like sensors aren't magical things that can detect ships on the other side of the galaxy. They have limitations and once you move beyond their limits you are effectively hidden. Now does the Relay help speed it up oh yes. But claiming they are trapped is a lot like claiming you will die unless you get that last cookie in the cookie jar. Their very existence is surprising and dividing. Even without the Citadel their sheer power and technological superiority did a damn good job of dividing the galaxy out of sheer self preservation.
Suuure you have. Anyway, yes, while there are other ways to interpret it (they can't get back at all or they just can't get back in a timely fashion, or there are none awake besides Sovereign and they won't wake up until the Relay opens, etc) the implication is that they are pretty stuck out there. That doesn't prevent them from having gotten there in the first place. Maybe that's where they were built. Make up your own reason. It's not a big problem for the first game since answers can come later. Even as it stands it's at worst a minor plot hole/issue required to have this story in the first place. It's like how we know you couldn't build Rapture, especially at that time, but nobody cares.
The rest of this is irrelevant blather. Sure, maybe they didn't need to go so far out, but they did. They did such a good job of dividing the galaxy that the advanced species were able to form a giant, combined fleet. Mass Effect 2 and 3 did not do a good job of following from Mass Effect 1, so what eventually happened is not a good argument against what was said in Mass Effect 1 and is totally irrelevant when we are discussing where ME1 left things and what could have been done.
Actually it is quite a revelations in context of the Reaper story. We know that they build the Citadel and the Relays. We know they appear every 50,000 years to harvest advanced races. We know that they turn the various races they harvest into a new Reaper. We get hints it has something to do with how organics develop. But we have no solid reasons. The revelation that there is a guiding intelligence behind the actions of the Reapers is pretty massive. It explains why they are doing it and sets it up later for the Catalyt's conversation about synthetic and organic conflict and why the Reapers exist in the first place.
The characters don't care. A big deal could have been made about the Reapers only being servants, but it really doesn't matter. It doesn't help us win and it doesn't change our opposition to them. They breeze past it because the Crucible is more important. And more importantly to what you said, we're still totally in the dark about their reasons and motives. You say it explains why they are doing it, but that "explanation" is "they were told to." It changes nothing.
Well at that point during the harvest who ever is controlling the Reapers is less of an importance. Because they are already in the middle of it and at that point who is controlling them is less important then stopping them. How ever the Asari hiding information like that is what set them up to be like this in the first place. Had they shared that information in the first place particularly after events with Sovereign the Galaxy would have been much better prepared.
We were already well aware that TIM was trying to control the Reapers from the the start of ME 3. Showing him only just able to control the lowest level Reaper isn't much new information.
You just said whoever is controlling the Reapers was a massive revelation and changed everything. Now you're agreeing with me that it doesn't matter, so make up your mind.
Yeah, I don't care too much for Horizon. I think it's there to set up the Control ending and maybe even explain how TIM can control Shepard and Anderson, but it doesn't really do a good job of that.
Well what is left behind comes off a lot like a religions set up. I mean we on Earth believe in various deities and think that the end of the world would be brought on by them. Since the entire set up of the Protheans made it seem like they were the only advanced race the common theme of Reapers wouldn't seem out of place like a religious name for their respective deity and claimed to be the cause of their death.
The actions of the council in ME 2 actually make some sense. For a reason why I claim that simply look at USA and the many things we need to address to maybe help reduce if only slightly mass shootings from once a month to every other month. Like good gun control laws, increased funding and ability to enforce current ones, access to affordable mental and physical health care so people might be found and treated before they go off the deep end and kill 49 people. But all they do is pay some lip service then when the whole incident dies down they go back to doing jack ****** squat about the real underlying problems.
The Leviathan of Dis was originally found and covered up by the Batarians. We only get a single circuit because they show the direct effect of staying to long in the Reaper. It might be dead but it is still possible to cause mental deterioration due to undirected indoctrination effect. Game play wise there is no need for Shepard to stay in the Reaper any longer then necessary besides to get IFF. Crucible was never found till right at the end. It wasn't like the plan was found before and never investigated. As soon as it was found it was put into use.
The Asari purposely covered up the beacon to horde advantages from it.
Well it doesn't help that those proposing new laws don't understand the problem or know how to address it, which is why they constantly propose laws that won't do anything. However people don't pretend the attack didn't happen. Our officials do like to pretend radical Islamic terrorists really are something else, but that only applies to that group. However, realistic or not, it doesn't serve the story well.
Yeah, I know what happened in ME2. Yet somehow the Turians were able to study Sovereign's bits long enough to get the Thanix cannon. They somehow have shielding in ME3 and Shepard implies it in Arrival. They could have had Shepard be on their more, but that wasn't the only option. They could have had the science team discover something important to beating the Reapers, making their sacrifice worthwhile. They could have not made the Reaper drop into the planet, leaving it for study even with the risk. That risk doesn't stop TIM from getting Reaper tech. They could have beaten Cerberus earlier, like EXALT from XCOM, and then gotten crucial data from TIM's research, possibly giving TIM a real redemption moment like Benezia. It might have earned him his "Saren moment" which he definitely didn't deserve as the story stands. Or they could have not made the Indoctrination effect continue, though it did serve that mission well. What did happen later is not an argument against what could have happened.
But you don't know it. Because you ignore a lot of stuff to suit your need. Case in point the fact the Reapers can not fully erase evidence of their actions. leaving behind some archeological evidence of their existence. You take as proof they fail and we should some how know more about them. But that ignores the fact that the way the Reapers would be represented would be set up like a theological deity passing judgement. Since very little information would be left behind people assuming they are a deity of some religion that the race followed and was used to describe their empire's destruction it make sense.
I think it comes off more you have trouble seeing what is thrown in front of you so you try to discredit what is shown and claim it makes no sense.
No, I really don't. Don't project your problems onto me. I didn't say it's proof that we should know more about them. I said that there could have been more ruins or archives to find and they wouldn't have been out of place for the setting. There we would learn more about them. The Protagonist learning about the enemy is a good thing. With the Crucible, a side character finds it, a less important side character sends you to get it, people build it and "study" it off screen. Shepard picks up random things to add to it somehow and sends other characters to help somehow. But Shepard doesn't learn anything about it, or even try to, until Thessia and even then it's only because he was sent.
This is the problem with Shepard being stripped of rank and just being "reinstated" as an Alliance Officer by Anderson. Instead of a Specter with autonomy following up on suggestions (illusion of choice is still better than nothing), Shepard is just taking orders.
There's no evidence that any cycle finds out about the Reapers until they attack except for this cycle. The only ones deifying the Reapers are the Geth in ME1 and that one Hanar in ME3. You could argue for Kenson in ME2. However both of the latter examples are the result of Indoctrination.
I see what's thrown in front of me just fine and it's terrible.
Well your posts show that's the case for you, but really it's just that I know proper storytelling and you don't. You just accept whatever is thrown in front of you and yet act like you figured things out so you can tell everyone else how smart you are. Just so you know, it isn't working.
Based off of internet knowledge that you've openly admitted attaining. Not real world actual writing knowledge that you have learned. In other words, you are an armchair writer.
The people who work at Bioware are professional writers who went to university, got an education and experience, applied for and got the job to prove they know what they're doing.
Based off of internet knowledge that you've openly admitted attaining. Not real world actual writing knowledge that you have learned. In other words, you are an armchair writer.
The people who work at Bioware are professional writers who went to university, got an education and experience, applied for and got the job to prove they know what they're doing.
What do you mean "real world writing knowledge?" I read books, I watch movies, and I read articles by writers, directors, and critics. I have write-ups by authors and a literature professor in my signature. I have studied the same writer's craft you'd learn in a classroom. I don't write, but that's irrelevant.
That's an argument from authority and therefore invalid on it's own. Plenty of people are bad at their jobs. Plenty of unqualified people get hired. They wrote ME3 to prove they don't know what they're doing.
Based off of internet knowledge that you've openly admitted attaining. Not real world actual writing knowledge that you have learned. In other words, you are an armchair writer.
The people who work at Bioware are professional writers who went to university, got an education and experience, applied for and got the job to prove they know what they're doing.
a piece of paper means nothing
Mhm. How many do actually have a degree in something writing related? Hudson is a mechanical engineer but well he was the project director. No clue what he use he got out of his education for the job.
Ok, one note about the reapers being trapped in dark space and Vigil contradicting himself:
Here is how I interpreted this when first playing ME1 (before ME2/3 came out). The chain of events would be:
- Sovereign activates Citadel relay
- Reapers come in and do their thing
- Reapers leave again through the Citadel relay into dark space
- Sovereign stays behind and closes realy
Rinse and repeat every 50.000 years.
At the time of ME1, it made sense that the reapers would be trapped in dark space because at the time of ME1 it wasn't established that reapers could fly FTL as long as they want without discharge points yet, that notion was only introduced in ME2/3 (on the contrary, even Sovereign needed the Mu relay to get to Illos back then). So if the Citadel's partner relay was beyond their discharge range, they would be trapped. While this is an incredibly vulnerable position to put themselves in, going that far out would also absolutely ensure that - even if discovered somehow through telescopes or whatever) - they could basically not be reached there (and Sovereign's arrogance also makes it pretty clear that they felt so surperior they just never considered this could become a trap).
Arising question: How did the reapers get the Citadel's partner relay into dark space?
Answer: Tow it as far as possible with FTL -> connect to the citadel -> fly the towing vessel through the relay -> discharge towing vessel -> fly back -> Tow relay further.
So back at the time of just ME1, there was no contradiction that I could see, the contradictions were really introduced with ME2 (especially it's ending and Arrival). Or did I miss anything?
Ok, one note about the reapers being trapped in dark space and Vigil contradicting himself:
Here is how I interpreted this when first playing ME1 (before ME2/3 came out). The chain of events would be:
- Sovereign activates Citadel relay
- Reapers come in and do their thing
- Reapers leave gain through the Citadel relay into dark space
- Sovereign stays behind and closes realy
Rinse and repeat every 50.000 years.
At the time of ME1, it made sense that the reapers would be trapped in dark space because at the time of ME1 it wasn't established that reapers could fly FTL as long as they want without discharge points yet, that notion was only introduced in ME2/3 (on the contrary, even Sovereign needed the Mu relay to get to Illos back then). So if the Citadel's partner relay was beyond their discharge range, they would be trapped. While this is an incredibly vulnerable position to put themselves in, going that far out would also absolutely ensure that - even if discovered somehow through telescopes or whatever) - they could basically not be reached there (and Sovereign's arrogance also makes it pretty clear that they felt so surperior they just never considered this could become a trap).
Arising question: How did the reapers get the Citadel's partner relay into dark space?
Answer: Tow it as far as possible with FTL -> connect to the citadel -> fly the towing vessel through the relay -> discharge towing vessel -> fly back -> Tow relay further.
So back at the time of just ME1, there was no contradiction that I could see, the contradictions were really introduced with ME2 (especially it's ending and Arrival). Or did I miss anything?
It's a fact that they must have been able to fly infinitely even back in ME1's lore, simply because of the fact that the only way you can make two pairs in a relay network is to manually fly to the location you plan to build one of them. If you want to make a relay in such-and-such system, you'll need to manually fly at FTL to reach it to begin construction. And the only way they could make two mass relays out in dark space (one to the Citadel, one to the Alpha Relay) is to fly out into dark space to begin construction. I see no plot hole here, I assumed even back in ME1 that the Reapers would be showing up by just traveling until they hit out galaxy.
It's a fact that they must have been able to fly infinitely even back in ME1's lore, simply because of the fact that the only way you can make two pairs in a relay network is to manually fly to the location you plan to build one of them. If you want to make a relay in such-and-such system, you'll need to manually fly at FTL to reach it to begin construction. And the only way they could make two mass relays out in dark space (one to the Citadel, one to the Alpha Relay) is to fly out into dark space to begin construction. I see no plot hole here, I assumed even back in ME1 that the Reapers would be showing up by just traveling until they hit out galaxy.
Where did you get the idea that they jumped from a Relay to the Alpha Relay? I thought they were just flying to it via FTL.
Where did you get the idea that they jumped from a Relay to the Alpha Relay? I thought they were just flying to it via FTL.
...What.
To jump out of a mass relay requires you to jump into one, they're basically teleporters. There's two mass relays out in dark space, one connecting to the Citadel and one to that. The pulsing was them getting closer and closer to the Alpha's dark space pair, as they flew to it. Once they reached its pair, they could them jump to the Alpha relay and from there use it to start their harvest right then and there. Unless you think the Reapers have the magic ability to jump to the Alpha Relay without having an actual relay to get to it with, like teleporting into a teleporter without getting into one? Because if you do, that's utter nonsense. The only explanation is that the Alpha's pair was out in dark space just like the Citadel's pair is, but the Alpha's pair was closer to the galaxy than the Citadel one which is why they had to fly for over 2 years to reach the Alpha's pair.
To answer the OP's original question, as I'm very late to the thread, never synthesis as that destroys the galaxy races uniqueness and the diversity of organic and non organic life forms... and in Shepard's speech it was all 'freedom or death' so I don't buy that level of complete turnaround from the character
Control was what Tim wanted and was pushing for and again Shepard had been really clear all the way through that it was wrong and dangerous - again I know we are 'supposed' to take star brat at its word but from where I sit the only 'good' Reaper is a dead Reaper and let's not forget the amount of 'power' the controlling Shepard would have and we all know that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely
Destroy is the only choice that fits with the whole character arc of Shepard and her/his closest mentors Anderson/Hackett - its kill or be killed and thats a speech again that Shepard made on more than one occassion
Yes it calls for sacrifice but Shepard is a soldier and understands that sometimes you send those under your command to their deaths... Edi/Geth other AI's on the side of the 'good guys' are all combatants just like every organic being still in the fight including those throwing themselves at the Reapers (to their certain deaths) just to give Shepard/Anderson a chance to 'fire' up the 'I win' beam
That was the choice I made the first time and once the extended cut came out of course it seemed it was the only ending that gave even a glimmer of 'suspended disbelief' hope that Shepard may just survive... so there was no turning back and no doubt which ending I would always choose after that
(and yes I've seen them all on youtube)
Edit afterthought - but of course this is a choice that is personal to the player and other choices can just as easily be validated 
...What.
To jump out of a mass relay requires you to jump into one, they're basically teleporters. There's two mass relays out in dark space, one connecting to the Citadel and one to that. The pulsing was them getting closer and closer to the Alpha's dark space pair, as they flew to it. Once they reached its pair, they could them jump to the Alpha relay and from there use it to start their harvest right then and there. Unless you think the Reapers have the magic ability to jump to the Alpha Relay without having an actual relay to get to it with, like teleporting into a teleporter without getting into one? Because if you do, that's utter nonsense. The only explanation is that the Alpha's pair was out in dark space just like the Citadel's pair is, but the Alpha's pair was closer to the galaxy than the Citadel one which is why they had to fly for over 2 years to reach the Alpha's pair.
Do you have trouble reading or did you just have a compulsive need to be an undeservedly arrogant jackass? I said I thought they were traveling via FTL. You know, the way ships get around within star clusters in this setting. That's not teleportation.
I went looking for anywhere it was stated that they jumped from Dark Space, and of course did not find any, which is why I asked the question. However, your scenario is set up by the cutscenes. I forgot you can do Arrival before finishing ME2, which would mean the Reapers were still out in Dark Space. You could have just said that.
As a side note, I do think Arrival is better after finishing ME2 so that you talk to Harbinger the Reaper not Harbinger the Collector general.
Edit afterthought - but of course this is a choice that is personal to the player and other choices can just as easily be validated
Not narratively. You spelled it out well. All the endings violate the themes and story in some way, except for Refuse. However, Destroy does so the least. You can only give a subjective personal preference for the other endings.
Do you have trouble reading or did you just have a compulsive need to be an undeservedly arrogant jackass? I said I thought they were traveling via FTL. You know, the way ships get around within star clusters in this setting. That's not teleportation.
I went looking for anywhere it was stated that they jumped from Dark Space, and of course did not find any, which is why I asked the question. However, your scenario is set up by the cutscenes. I forgot you can do Arrival before finishing ME2, which would mean the Reapers were still out in Dark Space. You could have just said that.
As a side note, I do think Arrival is better after finishing ME2 so that you talk to Harbinger the Reaper not Harbinger the Collector general.
I'm not being an arrogant jackack, I'm responding in confusion because your last post to me made no sense and thus confused me. That's what "what." means without a question mark, it means you made my mind go blank from how little sense you just made.
There's two mass relays in dark space. They kept the relays far apart, over 2 years apart in Reaper flight speed terms. They idle around the Citadel relay as their resting spot and immediately jump through when the Citadel relay activates. But it didn't. So they hoofed it the hard way to the next relay, the Alpha's pair. They flew at FTL until they got close enough to the AR's pair that they started making the Reaper artifact pulse. Enter Shepard, who destroys the Alpha Relay and makes it so the one in dark space no longer links to anywhere and thus won't work. So instead of the shortcut they planned to use, they have to then spend another 8 months flying until they actually reach the first relay of the Milky Way itself.
Get it now? So where's your issue with that above paragraph, what did I get wrong? Also, the ME2 ending cutscene doesn't show them arriving. It looks that way, but that's because the galaxy is massive. They were still a minimum of 8 months away, since ME3 takes places 8 months after ME2 ends. Thing is, there's the Alpha's pair out there. Whether they have already passed it by that ending cutscene or whether they're just beginning to get to it is irrelevant. Fact is, whether it's ahead or behind them doesn't matter. There's a relay that they planned to use that isn't the Citadel relay, and all relays need a pair. Always. So that means there MUST be a second relay in dark space. And that MUST mean that they already had the capability to travel infinitely, if they were to fly all the way out to dark space to build them in the first place.
I'm not being an arrogant jackack, I'm responding in confusion because your last post to me made no sense and thus confused me. That's what "what." means without a question mark, it means you made my mind go blank from how little sense you just made.
There's two mass relays in dark space. They kept the relays far apart, over 2 years apart in Reaper flight speed terms. They idle around the Citadel relay as their resting spot and immediately jump through when the Citadel relay activates. But it didn't. So they hoofed it the hard way to the next relay, the Alpha's pair. They flew at FTL until they got close enough to the AR's pair that they started making the Reaper artifact pulse. Enter Shepard, who destroys the Alpha Relay and makes it so the one in dark space no longer links to anywhere and thus won't work. So instead of the shortcut they planned to use, they have to then spend another 8 months flying until they actually reach the first relay of the Milky Way itself.
Get it now? So where's your issue with that above paragraph, what did I get wrong? Also, the ME2 ending cutscene doesn't show them arriving. It looks that way, but that's because the galaxy is massive. They were still a minimum of 8 months away, since ME3 takes places 8 months after ME2 ends. Thing is, there's the Alpha's pair out there. Whether they have already passed it by that ending cutscene or whether they're just beginning to get to it is irrelevant. Fact is, whether it's ahead or behind them doesn't matter. There's a relay that they planned to use that isn't the Citadel relay, and all relays need a pair. Always. So that means there MUST be a second relay in dark space. And that MUST mean that they already had the capability to travel infinitely, if they were to fly all the way out to dark space to build them in the first place.
Ok so it's the reading problem one. Got it.
I understand the plot perfectly fine, thanks. What I didn't think about is the second Relay in Dark Space which is only implied via cutscene rather than stated anywhere.
Ok so it's the reading problem one. Got it.
I understand the plot perfectly fine, thanks. What I didn't think about is the second Relay in Dark Space which is only implied via cutscene rather than stated anywhere.
No, not a reading problem. Your second paragraph makes that abundantly clear. You know what else is implied in cutscene rather than directly stated? That there's a pair to the Citadel relay either. Neither are shown, neither are said to actually be relays. The citadel is said to be a relay, but its pair could be a giant space teapot for all we know. Are you going to doubt it's a relay simply because it's not explicitly stated to be one? Do you know anything else the Alpha Relay's pair could be, the thing they'll use to jump to it from dark space?
No, not a reading problem. Your second paragraph makes that abundantly clear. You know what else is implied in cutscene rather than directly stated? That there's a pair to the Citadel relay either. Neither are shown, neither are said to actually be relays. The citadel is said to be a relay, but its pair could be a giant space teapot for all we know. Are you going to doubt it's a relay simply because it's not explicitly stated to be one? Do you know anything else the Alpha Relay's pair could be, the thing they'll use to jump to it from dark space?
Actually the pair to the Citadel was implied by dialogue. The Teapot would also still be a Relay, just like the Citadel is a Relay despite being different from other Relays. Looking only at what is in Arrival, my understanding that the Reapers flew to the Alpha Relay via FTL was perfectly valid. The only thing that shows this to not be the case is the end cutscene of the main campaign and then only if Arrival is played before finishing the game.
Actually the pair to the Citadel was implied by dialogue. The Teapot would also still be a Relay, just like the Citadel is a Relay despite being different from other Relays. Looking only at what is in Arrival, my understanding that the Reapers flew to the Alpha Relay via FTL was perfectly valid. The only thing that shows this to not be the case is the end cutscene of the main campaign and then only if Arrival is played before finishing the game.
I... You... What? You think they're manually flying to the Alpha Relay directly? How in the bloody hell does that work? If they were flying towards it, a relay WITHIN THE MILKY WAY, then that would mean they don't need the Alpha Relay at all and blowing it up would have done absolutely nothing. The point was to stop them from reaching the Milky Way, that's the sodding point of destroying their entrance to it. If the proximity that the artifact was detecting was them getting closer the the Alpha Relay itself, then they would have shown up right then instead of 8 months later.
You either have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, or this is you purposefully being obtuse as some kind of trolling tactic. Seriously, are you trying to not make sense?
I... You... What? You think they're manually flying to the Alpha Relay directly? How in the bloody hell does that work? If they were flying towards it, a relay WITHIN THE MILKY WAY, then that would mean they don't need the Alpha Relay at all and blowing it up would have done absolutely nothing. The point was to stop them from reaching the Milky Way, that's the sodding point of destroying their entrance to it. If the proximity that the artifact was detecting was them getting closer the the Alpha Relay itself, then they would have shown up right then instead of 8 months later.
You either have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, or this is you purposefully being obtuse as some kind of trolling tactic. Seriously, are you trying to not make sense?
No, because even for Reapers, Relays make travel faster. As Kenson says, without the Alpha Relay, it will take them months or years to reach another Relay. The Relay Network is that important to travel. Go read the codex entry on Mass Relays.
It's a fact that they must have been able to fly infinitely even back in ME1's lore, simply because of the fact that the only way you can make two pairs in a relay network is to manually fly to the location you plan to build one of them. If you want to make a relay in such-and-such system, you'll need to manually fly at FTL to reach it to begin construction. And the only way they could make two mass relays out in dark space (one to the Citadel, one to the Alpha Relay) is to fly out into dark space to begin construction. I see no plot hole here, I assumed even back in ME1 that the Reapers would be showing up by just traveling until they hit out galaxy.
Where in ME1 is that stated?
Counter-indications:
a) In ME1, the relay network is described as consisting of primary (fixed relays) and secondary relays that realign frequently => Relays can be aligned after being built.
b ) In ME1, they can align the Mu Relay to the Refuge system relay (where Ilos is) despite the fact that it moved after being hit by the super nova shockwave => Relays can be aligned after being moved
c) In ME3, they can just move something as big as the Citadel (granted, that is an ME3 one and by that time, things got really weird anyway but in ME1, there was no reason why one (especially reapers) couldn't tow a relay either) => It is possible to tow something as big (or bigger) as a relay.
==> You could build the entire network in the same manner that I described earlier.
RE: Arrival plot: This is actually interesting. I always interpreted arrivals plot such that the reapers fly into the Bahak system from dark space via FTL. This is because of two things:
- First time I played Arrival, it was after finishing ME2
- Kensen says that the specialty of the Alpha Relay is that it links directly to the Citadel (which is why the reapers want it. On the shuttle, she says "We found proof that the reapers will be arriving in this system. When they get here, they'll use its Mass Relay to travel throughout the galaxy" (this implied to me that they do not use the relay to get to this system in the first place.) She goes on "Doing that [destroying the Alpha Relay] would stop the reaper's invasion. Even at FTL speeds it would take months or years before they got to the next relay." )this implied to me that after Arrival, the reapers would be "stuck" in the Viper Nebula and it takes them that long to get out). It's mainly the way she says all this stuff, how she pronounces things, that just lead me to think this way (and I know I am not the only one with this interpretation)
But I will admit, ultimately, no one specifies clearly how the reapers get to Bahak and the interpretation that there is a second dark space relay that leads to Bahak has a bunch of advantages:
- Playing Arrival before the ME2 ending makes a bit more sense (at the ending of ME2, we clearly see the reapers still in dark space, I always assumed this was just an inconsistency between Arrival and the main game)
- Given that ME3 reveals the reapers speed to be over 24 ly/day they should not take months or years to get to the next relays (always took that for an inconsistency between Arrival and ME3)
So, that's interesting. Would be cool to find out if it is stated for certain anywhere how the reapers are supposed to arrive in Bahak, I couldn't find any reference that makes this clear.
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