2368 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

Well, the last time it started, it was 300 years of relative peace, since the geth never bothered to branch out and try to consume any significant portion of the galaxy, at least not until Sovereign interfered and decided to gather a splinter faction within their group. Of course, it's altogether possible that nothing equal or greater than this happens for hundreds of years, and possible still that if it did start up again, the synthetics are simply wiped out, much like the rachni nearly were, and the galaxy at large just keeps on keeping on. 
 
In any case, my issue is more with the toll this takes on the narrative more than anything. The idea that every living thing in existence needs to be forcibly altered to flourish just seems like a horrid load of hogwash. There's just no way I can let that sort of thing cap off the journey I'd like for my Shepard. I mean, the fact that my Shepard can be good friends with EDI and be understanding of the geth makes a total disconnect. Is she so unique in all the universe that absolutely no one else is physically capable of "understanding" synthetics?

And it occurred in the times before that, and apparently, before then, too. The Catalyst is utilizing available data to make such a projected statement; not discarding unwanted parts of it to ease their choices.

And while it is mentioned, the Rachni are also more than bugs as the game history indicates. If alive, they help with the construction of the Crucible. But of course Shepard is allowed to make this call, too.

[Iakus]

Is this not putting abstract principles ahead of actual lives? Also, your analogy has nothing to do with anything.

Given this is a video game, no.

 

Also, the analogy is perfect:  Forcing people to change to fit someone else's version of "perfection"?

[Xilizhra]

Given this is a video game, no.

 

Also, the analogy is perfect:  Forcing people to change to fit someone else's version of "perfection"?

Control is forcing THE FEWEST PEOPLE POSSIBLE TO CHANGE. It's the only option that could possibly be construed as respect for life.

[Elhanan]

Control is forcing THE FEWEST PEOPLE POSSIBLE TO CHANGE. It's the only option that could possibly be construed as respect for life.

Well, unless the gigantic floating ego has a bad morning due to a lack of coffee....

[Xilizhra]

Well, unless the gigantic floating ego has a bad morning due to a lack of coffee....

That's up to your individual roleplaying. I can't imagine why so many people are rank pessimists.

[Natureguy85]

Well, unless the gigantic floating ego has a bad morning due to a lack of coffee....

 

You made me think of this

 

 

 

 

That's up to your individual roleplaying. I can't imagine why so many people are rank pessimists.

 

That was largely taken out of your roleplaying hands by the EC. It's also established or at the very least heavily implied that the Reapers Indoctrinate simply by existing, so that would continue.

[Xilizhra]

That was largely taken out of your roleplaying hands by the EC.

Disagreed. The lines in the EC change depending on how you roleplayed Shepard.

 

 

It's also established or at the very least heavily implied that the Reapers Indoctrinate simply by existing, so that would continue.

Then don't have organics ride in them. Easy.

[Natureguy85]

Disagreed. The lines in the EC change depending on how you roleplayed Shepard.

 

Only based on paragon vs renegade. Both are interventionist and problematic.

 

 

 

Then don't have organics ride in them. Easy.

 

Irrelevant. Reapers indoctrinate from a distance and are stomping around major cities.

[Xilizhra]

Only based on paragon vs renegade. Both are interventionist and problematic.

No, other choices as well.

 

 

Irrelevant. Reapers indoctrinate from a distance and are stomping around major cities.

Then every soldier who ever fought them would be indoctrinated, which clearly seems not to be the case.

[KaiserShep]

Control is forcing THE FEWEST PEOPLE POSSIBLE TO CHANGE. It's the only option that could possibly be construed as respect for life.

Well, no people really, unless you consider the reapers people (I sure as heck wouldn't).

I'd be more concerned about all those reanimated bodies floating about. I mean, where the heck would the husks and banshees live? Would the awakened brutes scream in horror at what they are? Implications, unpleasant.

[Iakus]

Control is forcing THE FEWEST PEOPLE POSSIBLE TO CHANGE. It's the only option that could possibly be construed as respect for life.

By forcing all of them to live as slaves.

 

Is that respecting life?  To hand over your future to Space Cthulhu?

 

Is submission really preferable to extinction?

[Natureguy85]

No, other choices as well.

 

Well those other choices are what build your paragon and renegade bars. What other choices? They change the slides but how do they change the dialogue from Shepard-Catalyst?

 

 

Then every soldier who ever fought them would be indoctrinated, which clearly seems not to be the case.

 

Don't be silly. Soldiers and others do get Indoctrinated, but it does take time. During reconstruction we're talking about constant exposure for years and decades.

[Iakus]

 

Don't be silly. Soldiers and others do get Indoctrinated, but it does take time. During reconstruction we're talking about constant exposure for years and decades.

Yup, Liara warns everyone to stay away from the dead Reaper on Tuchanka when salvage crews started moving in.

[Xilizhra]

Well, no people really, unless you consider the reapers people (I sure as heck wouldn't).

I'd be more concerned about all those reanimated bodies floating about. I mean, where the heck would the husks and banshees live? Would the awakened brutes scream in horror at what they are? Implications, unpleasant.

They're not awakened in Control, they're still mindless.

 

 

By forcing all of them to live as slaves.

 

Is that respecting life?  To hand over your future to Space Cthulhu?

 

Is submission really preferable to extinction?

They're not bloody slaves. And yes, my submission is preferable to another's extinction. Especially since the submitted can still choose extinction if they want.

 

In any case the whole point of that question when Saren asked it is that it was meaningless because extinction would happen either way. Such is not the case here.

 

 

Well those other choices are what build your paragon and renegade bars. What other choices? They change the slides but how do they change the dialogue from Shepard-Catalyst?

• If a Paragon Shepard cured the genophage and Wrex leads the krogan, Shepard intends to give the many hope for a future and ensure that all have a voice in their future.
• If a Renegade Shepard cured the genophage and Wrex leads the krogan, Shepard vows to "right the wrongs of the past" and as well as to provide a voice for the weak.
• If a Paragon Shepard cured the genophage and Wreav leads the krogan, Shepard vows to "provide a voice for those too weak to speak for themselves."
• If a Renegade Shepard cured the genophage and Wreav leads the krogan, Shepard intends to ensure that "the strongest are not feared or reviled for their strength."
• If a Paragon Shepard sabotaged the cure, they desire to give the galaxy a chance for peace and let the mistakes of the past be fixed on their own accord.
• If a Renegade Shepard sabotaged the cure, they intend to act as a powerful leader who will put an end to the bickering of the many.

 

Don't be silly. Soldiers and others do get Indoctrinated, but it does take time. During reconstruction we're talking about constant exposure for years and decades.

Indoctrination is an active signal, isn't it? If a Reaper dies when the indoctrination button is pressed, indoctrination will keep going, but a Reaper could, I believe also turn indoctrination off.

[KaiserShep]

By forcing all of them to live as slaves.

Is that respecting life? To hand over your future to Space Cthulhu?

Is submission really preferable to extinction?

Technically, the whole slavery thing is kinda up in the air. I'd say it's more like ever-present Big Brother that watches and intervenes, which isn't that much better, but probably can't be construed as slavery, especially since the New Jack Catalyst can just make the reapers do all the work.

As for Indoctrination, that's probably still around in Control, but I can only assume it no longer occurs in Synthesis and Destroy. I'm settling with that for my own personal canon. I mean, it's the only way reconstruction would even work, what with massive reaper hulks just lying around everywhere.

[gothpunkboy89]

If you're a private soldier that's what you need to be concerned about. If you're a general you need to have a rather better strategy than "Right, we'll attack this, no idea what we'll do next." Every move part of a larger plan.

 

But you don't start to plan the invasion of Berlin till you have the Beaches of Normandy secured. In fact there is a long list of objectives you need to deal with before you start even thinking about invading Berlin.

 

You seem to overly complicate and at the same time overly simply what is going on specifically to be able to claim you are right. Contradicting yourself simply to be correct is silly.

[gothpunkboy89]

At the time we spoke to Sovereign we didn't know about the guiding intelligence at all. They don't know exactly what Sovereign meant. We also know that he was exaggerating when he talked of having no beginning, so why might he not be exaggerating or misleading with that statement?

 

The fact that they can't beat the Reapers in a conventional war is exactly why they should go after whatever is controlling or leading them. It might be their only chance for all they know. Why put all their eggs in the Crucible basket considering they don't know what it is or what it does and don't have a necessary piece?

 

 

 

 

If I'm getting beaten by that boss so badly, but could leave and beat the final boss, therefore not needing to fight the boss that's beating me, then sure I would.

 

D-Day was just one operation and cost thousands of lives. If they could have taken out Hitler's house and made the D-Day invasions unnecessary, then sure they would have. It wasn't that the beaches were a more pressing concern, it's that taking them was necessary to strike the interior of Europe.

 

As of Leviathan, the Alliance is shown to be using resources for things other than shooting the Reapers with guns or building the Crucible.

 

 

How much of direct Reaper statements were later retconned or contradicted in later games? Not other characters like VI's statements but direct statements by Reapers?

 

And what would the guiding intelligence do if attacked? Would it just be floating there undefended? A ripe easy target for even the lowest solider to blow up easily? No it wouldn't. It would have it's own defenses and if attacked it would summon every Reaper to it. Which would then lead to said conventional war that it is already established the citizens of the galaxy can not beat the Reapers in. What part about this very basic logic are you not understanding.

 

Yes they don't know exactly what the Crucible will do but hat is kind of the point. The Reapers are such an over whelming enemy that they can't beat any other way they are pinning their hopes on a hail mary 80 yard throw for a touch down to win the Super Bowl.

 

 

Yes that is my entire point. That is why they didn't drop everything and go right after what ever unseen power is in charge of the Reapers. The unseen power would simply use the Reapers to defend it self. They would have to deal with the Reapers first before they would have a shot at the person in charge. Much in the same way the Allies needed D-Day to get a secure foot hold to allow them to strike at the interior of Europe.

[BloodyMares]

But you don't start to plan the invasion of Berlin till you have the Beaches of Normandy secured. In fact there is a long list of objectives you need to deal with before you start even thinking about invading Berlin.

You are correct that the plan to invade Berlin didn't occure at once. But this was a logical assumption that this step would be necessary to end the war. In the Reaper war the goal is to defeat the Reapers. The question is how. The long list of objectives is based on the intel. In any war intel is crucial. You need to gather info about enemy force numbers, locations, commanders, etc. Once you know that, only then you can plan out your tactics.

[Natureguy85]

 

They're not bloody slaves. And yes, my submission is preferable to another's extinction. Especially since the submitted can still choose extinction if they want.

 

In any case the whole point of that question when Saren asked it is that it was meaningless because extinction would happen either way. Such is not the case here.

 

No, it wasn't meaningless because Shepard will make comments indicating that submission is not preferable to extinction, separate from comments that Saren is wrong and the Reapers would still destroy them.

 

 

 

• If a Paragon Shepard cured the genophage and Wrex leads the krogan, Shepard intends to give the many hope for a future and ensure that all have a voice in their future.
• If a Renegade Shepard cured the genophage and Wrex leads the krogan, Shepard vows to "right the wrongs of the past" and as well as to provide a voice for the weak.
• If a Paragon Shepard cured the genophage and Wreav leads the krogan, Shepard vows to "provide a voice for those too weak to speak for themselves."
• If a Renegade Shepard cured the genophage and Wreav leads the krogan, Shepard intends to ensure that "the strongest are not feared or reviled for their strength."
• If a Paragon Shepard sabotaged the cure, they desire to give the galaxy a chance for peace and let the mistakes of the past be fixed on their own accord.
• If a Renegade Shepard sabotaged the cure, they intend to act as a powerful leader who will put an end to the bickering of the many.

 

Indoctrination is an active signal, isn't it? If a Reaper dies when the indoctrination button is pressed, indoctrination will keep going, but a Reaper could, I believe also turn indoctrination off.

 

Ok, well that is better that it makes some slight difference. However, Shepard still has to be active to achieve those goals. How is he going to provide a voice for the weak? He doesn't talk merely of preventing or stopping violence.

 

Well that's a good question. All we know is that the dead Reaper continued to Indoctrinate. It would make sense that they could turn it off. I would have thought so after ME1. But ME2 messes with that. What was it Indoctrinating when it was shot in space?

 

 

But you don't start to plan the invasion of Berlin till you have the Beaches of Normandy secured. In fact there is a long list of objectives you need to deal with before you start even thinking about invading Berlin.

 

That's not true at all, nor is it applicable to this hypothetical situation. Taking the beaches was required to take Berlin. The point of going after the Intelligence would be the hope that taking it out would stop the Reapers and you wouldn't have to fight all of them, like when the Control ships are taken out in The Avengers or The Phantom Menace.

 

 

 

 

And what would the guiding intelligence do if attacked? Would it just be floating there undefended? A ripe easy target for even the lowest solider to blow up easily? No it wouldn't. It would have it's own defenses and if attacked it would summon every Reaper to it. Which would then lead to said conventional war that it is already established the citizens of the galaxy can not beat the Reapers in. What part about this very basic logic are you not understanding.

 

The intelligence is sitting undefended on the Citadel, which is not captured by the Reapers until the end of the game. I don't see anyone rushing to stop Shepard from shooting the tube. They don't know this at the time, but it's no reason to not look into it. Leviathan shows they have teams on special projects other than the Crucible.

 

 

 

 

Yes they don't know exactly what the Crucible will do but hat is kind of the point. The Reapers are such an over whelming enemy that they can't beat any other way they are pinning their hopes on a hail mary 80 yard throw for a touch down to win the Super Bowl.

 

 

Yes that is my entire point. That is why they didn't drop everything and go right after what ever unseen power is in charge of the Reapers. The unseen power would simply use the Reapers to defend it self. They would have to deal with the Reapers first before they would have a shot at the person in charge. Much in the same way the Allies needed D-Day to get a secure foot hold to allow them to strike at the interior of Europe.

 

Who said they should drop everything? Can you just once argue against what I said rather than a strawman?

 

The Crucible is unknown and unproven. While anything should be pursued at this point, why put everything into it and nothing else? Where's the Commander Locke character from The Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions who doesn't believe in the prophecy and is doing everything he can to win in a way he knows how? That's some compelling conflict.

[themikefest]

Indoctrination is an active signal, isn't it? If a Reaper dies when the indoctrination button is pressed, indoctrination will keep going, but a Reaper could, I believe also turn indoctrination off.

That's only if the mass effect core is still functional. The derelict reaper and the reaper the batarins found still had the core functioning which led to folks being indoctrinated. When Sovereign was destroyed, its core was destroyed. As far as I know, there are no reports of anypne being indoctrinated from those pieces

[Natureguy85]

That's only if the mass effect core is still functional. The derelict reaper and the reaper the batarins found still had the core functioning which led to folks being indoctrinated. When Sovereign was destroyed, its core was destroyed. As far as I know, there are no reports of anypne being indoctrinated from those pieces

 

Although they did bother to shield the piece in Leviathan.

[themikefest]

Although they did bother to shield the piece in Leviathan.

Bryson might of thought it would prevent indoctrination when he really didn't need it. Made him sleep easier at night. The turians didn't seem to worry about it when making the thannix weapon. There was no reports of any turian being indoctrinated.

 

If it did prevent indoctrination, why didn't he tell Hackett? Maybe he did and Hackett just waved it away. Don't know.

 

Possible Bioware overlooked this when making the dlc

[gothpunkboy89]

That's not true at all, nor is it applicable to this hypothetical situation. Taking the beaches was required to take Berlin. The point of going after the Intelligence would be the hope that taking it out would stop the Reapers and you wouldn't have to fight all of them, like when the Control ships are taken out in The Avengers or The Phantom Menace.

 

 

The intelligence is sitting undefended on the Citadel, which is not captured by the Reapers until the end of the game. I don't see anyone rushing to stop Shepard from shooting the tube. They don't know this at the time, but it's no reason to not look into it. Leviathan shows they have teams on special projects other than the Crucible.

 

 

Who said they should drop everything? Can you just once argue against what I said rather than a strawman?

 

The Crucible is unknown and unproven. While anything should be pursued at this point, why put everything into it and nothing else? Where's the Commander Locke character from The Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions who doesn't believe in the prophecy and is doing everything he can to win in a way he knows how? That's some compelling conflict.

 

1. They do not know the intelligence is on the Citadel. It could be any were in some remote system or buried deep inside a planet or even be an actual planet for all they know.

 

2. The second the Reapers learn the Crucible needs the Citadel regardless of them knowing about the AI hidden in it they quickly attack and take over the Citadel with ease. Transporting it to Earth protected by the largest Reaper Fleet assembled in one spot. While still maintaining enough Reaper presence across the galaxy to continue with the harvest unobstructed. This fleet is still shown to be capable of engaging and wiping out the ENTIRE FLEET OF ALL RACES OF THE GALAXY.

 

3. If said intelligence was attacked by any of the races attempting to destroy it to effect the Reapers it would simply summon any and all near by Reapers to defend it from harm. Resulting in similar set ups that have already echoed across the galaxy. Organics put up a fight but are ultimately destroyed.

 

4. During the entire Reaper invasion 1 of 2 things are happening with any system the Reapers invade. 1 the population evacuates who ever they can leaving the rest to buy time for the others to escape and being left to be harvested. Or 2 the race(s) slow the Reaper advance at the cost of unsustainable casualties.

 

I make no straw man you are simply more interested in being right rather then analyzing what is happening in the game world. You want to see them being stupid by not going after this mysterious guiding intelligence that no one has any clue exists or any idea of were to find it. Even Leviathan wouldn't have any idea were to start looking. So to satisfy that set up you are ignoring everything the game has shown is happening because you want to be right rather then correct.

 

The Reapers have the races of the galaxy against the ropes. It does not matter that there is some intelligence guiding the Reaper's actions the fact is the Reapers are actively attacking hundreds of worlds causing billions of causalities as they try and defend them. They need to take care of the Reapers first. If not out right destroying them all but simply getting hold of a weapon that allows the races of the galaxy to create a safe area that they can hold out against them. This links to my D Day example. The landing on the beaches of Normandy existed solely to give the Allies a secure foot hold in Europe so they could advance to the interior of it and ultimately Berlin.

 

Once the Reapers are either out right destroyed they could devote their time to finding that intelligence. Or if they at least gained a weapon capable of taking them down it would allow them to rally around it and at least create a defensive area that they could defend and give them time to find it.

 

It litearlly boils down to 2 choices

 

Choice A: They go with the long shot Crucible item that they physically have in their hands partially build and hope it works as it seems to claim to

 

Or

 

Choice B: Abandon the only tangible long shot they have to waste time chasing down rumor and speculation that only the Reapers would truly know anything about. All while the Reapers continue to harvest planet after planet.

 

Let us also not forget your Commander Locke example is proven wrong as it is the prophecy that saves the day not his personal actions.

 

 

TL;DR

The new about an intelligence guiding the Reapers is big news. The reaction to it is perfectly reasonable. The Reapers which are the tools of the intelligence are the main threat. Figure out a way to destroy or disable the tools and the intelligence is no longer a threat and can be dealt with at a later time. But the main priority now is finding a way to destroy, disable or at least combat the Reapers in some way shape or form that allows for some chance of victory to happen before any other move is made.

[KaiserShep]

The new about an intelligence guiding the Reapers is big news. The reaction to it is perfectly reasonable. The Reapers which are the tools of the intelligence are the main threat. Figure out a way to destroy or disable the tools and the intelligence is no longer a threat and can be dealt with at a later time. But the main priority now is finding a way to destroy, disable or at least combat the Reapers in some way shape or form that allows for some chance of victory to happen before any other move is made.

 

Well, in the end, dealing with the Intelligence directly did prove to be the most effective way to deal with the reaper threat. 

[themikefest]

There is nothing that says Leviathan doesn't know the intelligence is on the Citadel. The reason why is because Bioware forgot to have Shepard ask Leviathan if it knew about the catalyst. Funny since Shepard can ask about the crucible.