Well, in the end, dealing with the Intelligence directly did prove to be the most effective way to deal with the reaper threat.
True but not in the seek out and destroy thus the hive mind set up cases all Reapers to deactivate set up Natureguy is trying to push.
True but not in the seek out and destroy thus the hive mind set up cases all Reapers to deactivate set up Natureguy is trying to push.
1. They do not know the intelligence is on the Citadel. It could be any were in some remote system or buried deep inside a planet or even be an actual planet for all they know.
2. The second the Reapers learn the Crucible needs the Citadel regardless of them knowing about the AI hidden in it they quickly attack and take over the Citadel with ease. Transporting it to Earth protected by the largest Reaper Fleet assembled in one spot. While still maintaining enough Reaper presence across the galaxy to continue with the harvest unobstructed. This fleet is still shown to be capable of engaging and wiping out the ENTIRE FLEET OF ALL RACES OF THE GALAXY.
3. If said intelligence was attacked by any of the races attempting to destroy it to effect the Reapers it would simply summon any and all near by Reapers to defend it from harm. Resulting in similar set ups that have already echoed across the galaxy. Organics put up a fight but are ultimately destroyed.
4. During the entire Reaper invasion 1 of 2 things are happening with any system the Reapers invade. 1 the population evacuates who ever they can leaving the rest to buy time for the others to escape and being left to be harvested. Or 2 the race(s) slow the Reaper advance at the cost of unsustainable casualties.
1) I already said that. That's not a reason to not try to learn about it.
2) And yet somehow they can't stop the Crucible from docking with the Citadel or stop Shepard and the Crucible from Destroying all of them.
3) And how long would it take for the Reapers to get there and stop them? Maybe they'd have some sort of suicide mission. Maybe it'd be too late. There are ways to set this type of thing up. It's been done before.
4) I don't know what your point is here. Secret projects continue to run.
What you seem to be missing is that the characters don't even have to do anything big. If they actually talked about it and gave any of the excuses you did as to why they can't actually act on it, that would be better.
I make no straw man you are simply more interested in being right rather then analyzing what is happening in the game world. You want to see them being stupid by not going after this mysterious guiding intelligence that no one has any clue exists or any idea of were to find it. Even Leviathan wouldn't have any idea were to start looking. So to satisfy that set up you are ignoring everything the game has shown is happening because you want to be right rather then correct.
The Reapers have the races of the galaxy against the ropes. It does not matter that there is some intelligence guiding the Reaper's actions the fact is the Reapers are actively attacking hundreds of worlds causing billions of causalities as they try and defend them. They need to take care of the Reapers first. If not out right destroying them all but simply getting hold of a weapon that allows the races of the galaxy to create a safe area that they can hold out against them. This links to my D Day example. The landing on the beaches of Normandy existed solely to give the Allies a secure foot hold in Europe so they could advance to the interior of it and ultimately Berlin.
Once the Reapers are either out right destroyed they could devote their time to finding that intelligence. Or if they at least gained a weapon capable of taking them down it would allow them to rally around it and at least create a defensive area that they could defend and give them time to find it.
It litearlly boils down to 2 choices
Choice A: They go with the long shot Crucible item that they physically have in their hands partially build and hope it works as it seems to claim to
Or
Choice B: Abandon the only tangible long shot they have to waste time chasing down rumor and speculation that only the Reapers would truly know anything about. All while the Reapers continue to harvest planet after planet.
You obviously don't know what a strawman actually is since you do it right after saying you don't.
I never suggested choice B. I didn't suggest abandoning the Crucible, but to make it the only thing they pursue is equally foolish given how little they know about it. There is no indication that they have to put literally all resources into the Crucible with nothing left to spare.
In LotR, Frodo and Sam went alone into Mordor while others saved Rohan and Gondor. After the battle of Minas Tirith, they attacked Gondor to give Frodo cover.
In The Matrix Revolutions, Neo goes into the Machine City and negotiates with some Central Intelligence while Zion is under attack.
Even in the terrible Phantom Menace they attacked the droid control ship with fighters while the ground troops fought droids in the city and the swamps.
Let us also not forget your Commander Locke example is proven wrong as it is the prophecy that saves the day not his personal actions.
Of course he was proven wrong; he was against the Protagonist and him being special. However, the movies were better for his existence. It created a clash of ideologies and personalities between Morpheus and Locke. It made sense that there were people, including some in authority, that didn't buy into the idea of the Prophecy and the One and wanted to focus on fighting conventionally, particularly because that is what he knew best.
TL;DR
The new about an intelligence guiding the Reapers is big news. The reaction to it is perfectly reasonable. The Reapers which are the tools of the intelligence are the main threat. Figure out a way to destroy or disable the tools and the intelligence is no longer a threat and can be dealt with at a later time. But the main priority now is finding a way to destroy, disable or at least combat the Reapers in some way shape or form that allows for some chance of victory to happen before any other move is made.
It's not big news. Nobody cares. The story doesn't care until the Catalyst just shows up. And then his only purpose is to put the ending choices in context and explain them.
The bold is a game too late and could have been solved by finding and dealing with the intelligence in some way for all they knew.
Only because information was very limited. There was no one that knew where this thing was, so there was no lead to even bother following. If the galaxy learned where it was, you can bet that nuking the Citadel would be an option on the table.
If that doesn't work, just have Shepard get in the drivers seat and drive it into the nearest sun since it has engines
Only because information was very limited. There was no one that knew where this thing was, so there was no lead to even bother following. If the galaxy learned where it was, you can bet that nuking the Citadel would be an option on the table.
And the second they found out about it the Catalyst would have called Reapers into defend it.
Here is the problem with that set up.
1. To do so would require complete evacuation of the Citadel. Something that would cause panic across the galaxy as the last bastion of hope is being evacuated. Something the Reapers would notice
2. The Keepers still exist on the Citadel and well within game reason that they would react defensively if the Citadel was attacked closing the arms and attacking any ground troops.
3. The Citadel is much larger then it seems to be in game. They kind of struggle to show size comparisons. Nuking it with ships would take a lot of time to do any real damage to it. Even longer if the Keepers managed to close the arms.
4. During all that the Catalyst can simply send out an SOS and using the Relay system a Fleet of Reapers can be there in moments. They moved from the Charon Relay to Earth which is ~ 7.5 billion km in like 10 minutes. And they would come barreling in guns blazing. Kind of an odd reverse order of ME 1 were the Alliance came in guns blazing to kill Sovereign.
5. After they have slaughtered all those ships and the Keepers start repairing the inside the Reapers seal it shut and leave a guard around it to keep it safe. Which would lead to the exact same set up as already in ME 3 Priority Earth. The difference being how ever is they are now down a fairly decent amount of ships due to the terrible attempt to take out the Citadel leaving them weakened and still relying on the Crucible to stop the Reapers.
1) I already said that. That's not a reason to not try to learn about it.
2) And yet somehow they can't stop the Crucible from docking with the Citadel or stop Shepard and the Crucible from Destroying all of them.
3) And how long would it take for the Reapers to get there and stop them? Maybe they'd have some sort of suicide mission. Maybe it'd be too late. There are ways to set this type of thing up. It's been done before.
4) I don't know what your point is here. Secret projects continue to run.
What you seem to be missing is that the characters don't even have to do anything big. If they actually talked about it and gave any of the excuses you did as to why they can't actually act on it, that would be better.
You obviously don't know what a strawman actually is since you do it right after saying you don't.
I never suggested choice B. I didn't suggest abandoning the Crucible, but to make it the only thing they pursue is equally foolish given how little they know about it. There is no indication that they have to put literally all resources into the Crucible with nothing left to spare.
In LotR, Frodo and Sam went alone into Mordor while others saved Rohan and Gondor. After the battle of Minas Tirith, they attacked Gondor to give Frodo cover.
In The Matrix Revolutions, Neo goes into the Machine City and negotiates with some Central Intelligence while Zion is under attack.
Even in the terrible Phantom Menace they attacked the droid control ship with fighters while the ground troops fought droids in the city and the swamps.
Of course he was proven wrong; he was against the Protagonist and him being special. However, the movies were better for his existence. It created a clash of ideologies and personalities between Morpheus and Locke. It made sense that there were people, including some in authority, that didn't buy into the idea of the Prophecy and the One and wanted to focus on fighting conventionally, particularly because that is what he knew best.
It's not big news. Nobody cares. The story doesn't care until the Catalyst just shows up. And then his only purpose is to put the ending choices in context and explain them.
The bold is a game too late and could have been solved by finding and dealing with the intelligence in some way for all they knew.
The basis of your argument is that they should have reacted more strongly to the revelation of some mysterious entity directing and controlling the Reapers. You have yet to show how this lack of reaction about learning this is actually wrong. All your statements are based on what if and/or simply looking into the realm of possibility which is endless. You don't actually show any hard facts from the game that would support your statement other then stating they should have done this or that. Which is pure hindsight without adding in cause and effect of the actions. I use in game reasons why they would ignore that information and focus on the Reapers as well as use logical cause and effect reasons why.
Show the proof to validate your complaints before your complaints are taken seriously by anyone but yourself and other people that think just like you.
Your movie examples are terrible examples because that is exactly what happens in game with the Crucible anyways. Using it as proof of going after the guiding intelligence behind the Reaper actions isn't very valid.
Hackett just like Aragon, soldiers in Zion and the Gungans buy time for the protagonist Shepard/Frodo/Neo/Anakin to stop the bad guy to stop the antagonist. Trying to use that to validate a completely unsupported claim that they should have gone full tilt on looking for the Reaper guiding intelligence is not supported by any of these statements. Mostly because it is again build on a big big super Citadel size if. That if being of course they are actually dependent on the guiding intelligence to survive. And in all your movie examples it is 100% known that the antagonist of Sauron/Machines/Droids are dependent and controlled by a centralized location and destroying it would cause the collapse. Particularly since the actions of the Reapers in ME 1, 2 and 3 all show they are capable of independent thought and action and not 100% dependent on the guiding intelligence.
Their less then big reaction to the news about a guiding intelligence fits with the over all game and is not some form of bad writing, story set up or what ever it is you want to classify it as. The Reapers are the current primary enemy. They need some way to fight back against them first. It is already taking every ounce of every race's resources to hold the combat lines as it is. To divert any resources to chase something that no one has ever found any hint about or would have no idea were to even start not Shepard or even Leviathan would have even the vaguest idea is stupid in the purest sense of the word. With more and more system falling under Reaper control it would make any attempt to follow any leads more and more dangerous ensuring that not only would the Reapers learn what they are trying to do much like they did with Leviathan. Having Reapers then actively hunting down any group trying to find answers for it if not simply out right taking the Citadel. Leaving them back at square one anyways.
They're not bloody slaves. And yes, my submission is preferable to another's extinction. Especially since the submitted can still choose extinction if they want.
In any case the whole point of that question when Saren asked it is that it was meaningless because extinction would happen either way. Such is not the case here.
A gilded cage is still a cage.
And the question stands. Is it better to be a servant, to live and work and worship according to the prescripts of another power, however "benevolent" it may be, than to fight and perhaps die for your freedom?
If Saren wasn't being fed a line of BS, would he have been right to do what he did in ME1?
Nice and dandy, still the Catalyst couldn´t or wouldn´t even call Fixit Felix eh Sovereign, after the protheans smashed their nice trap setup.
Sr lost a bit track of the debate. Was he one one of the guys who argued about the Catalyst being unable to perceive the manipulation, not interested in actually having any kind of control over the CItadel or something else?
Nice and dandy, still the Catalyst couldn´t or wouldn´t even call Fixit Felix eh Sovereign, after the protheans smashed their nice trap setup.
Sr lost a bit track of the debate. Was he one one of the guys who argued about the Catalyst being unable to perceive the manipulation, not interested in actually having any kind of control over the CItadel or something else?
Nice attempt. Fact is the alteration didn't actually cause the plan to fail. Simply delayed it because like any even semi intelligent person they didn't put all their eggs in one basket. Added they only altered the signal sent to the keepers to get them to activate the relay. If I change the radio station in your car would you notice it? No you wouldn't not until you tried to turn on the radio and found it playing classical opera.
I also said the keepers close the citadel arms as a means to protect it in case of such an attack. After all their entire existence is set up around maintaining and up keeping it. They are able to remote activate the mass relay it would be logical for them to be able to close the arms as a way to protect the citadel from attack.
I also never stated the Catalyst was direct control of Reapers. But acts more similar to a manager and associate set up. Which the Catalyst sending out a request for protection from the races trying to destroy it would be responded to by the Reapers much in the same way if your manager asked you for help you would go help them.
A gilded cage is still a cage.
And the question stands. Is it better to be a servant, to live and work and worship according to the prescripts of another power, however "benevolent" it may be, than to fight and perhaps die for your freedom?
If Saren wasn't being fed a line of BS, would he have been right to do what he did in ME1?
Then we are all living in a gilded cage right now.
Nice attempt. Fact is the alteration didn't actually cause the plan to fail. Simply delayed it because like any even semi intelligent person they didn't put all their eggs in one basket. Added they only altered the signal sent to the keepers to get them to activate the relay. If I change the radio station in your car would you notice it? No you wouldn't not until you tried to turn on the radio and found it playing classical opera.
Yeah, I don´t need that anyways, is a nice excuse after the fact.
Wasn´t the catalyst actually sitting in the car that was part of it, yaddayaddayo, when these pesky four eyed radiostation changers snuck in?
Then we are all living in a gilded cage right now.
If a single, totally unaccountable entity rules my life, then yes.
If a single, totally unaccountable entity rules my life, then yes.
So literally any government ever in existence. Were they make the rules and you must follow them. You break the rules and they punish you.
Yeah, I don´t need that anyways, is a nice excuse after the fact.
Wasn´t the catalyst actually sitting in the car that was part of it, yaddayaddayo, when these pesky four eyed radiostation changers snuck in?
And yet if we were sitting in the car I could still alter the radio station without you knowing it. All it is is turning a nob or pressing a button.
So literally any government ever in existence. Were they make the rules and you must follow them. You break the rules and they punish you.
A government is not a single entity (barring absolute dictatorships) And many governments allow their people to elect their leaders.
Not perfect, but better than Space Cthulhu getting to decide if I live or die each day.
And yet if we were sitting in the car I could still alter the radio station without you knowing it. All it is is turning a nob or pressing a button.
Oh, in your analogy you are actually sitting in my car at the same time as I do?
Well I am neither blind nor deaf.
A government is not a single entity (barring absolute dictatorships) And many governments allow their people to elect their leaders.
Not perfect, but better than Space Cthulhu getting to decide if I live or die each day.
Naivety is the greatest gift ever. US congress approval rating is ~ 20% if that. Their reelection rate is nearly 90%.
The FCC a non elected government body answerable only to the President decided all on their own that radio and tv were not protected by the first amendment rights. Which is why shows like South Park or any stand up comedy you hear out side of HBO is censored with bleeps even though it is completely adult orientated.
The lists continue on endlessly with US at least. And while I might be misunderstanding the lexicon of UK political set up but groups called shadow cabinets not the most trust worthy sounding group to me.
And they might not out right kill you but they throw you in jail for years to decades at a time. Which enters you into the ungodly mess and hell hole that is our prison system and the debilitating after effects that makes it a struggle simply to have a job due to having a criminal record.
There are days I would much prefer the Reapers over current set up.
Oh, in your analogy you are actually sitting in my car at the same time as I do?
Well I am neither blind nor deaf.
Radio isn't on so you wouldn't hear it.
You are busy driving and looking at the road so you wouldn't see it
Love it. Keep up with the analogies. I always need a good laugh
Love it. Keep up with the analogies. I always need a good laugh
When you boil everything down to who is right not what needs to be done to prevent future blood shed. Honestly not really caring what your opinion is anymore.
I'll just refer you to Iakus' post above.
First off, I'm kinda surprised that you generally like my posts. I always just assumed the opposite heh, but thanks! (and I mean that sincerely)
Secondly, yeah, while I am exaggerating a bit for fun, I do think the writers of ME2 were just indulging their own fantasies and ideas they had. I can only imagine how the original idea for Thane went down
"So I have this awesome idea for a character. He's this uber badass alien assasin who's been trained from birth to be an expert killer, who knows kung-fu, and spouts off religious sounding lines and he wears a leather jacket. He is also super-fast and stealthy that he can vanish even when the camera is on him."
"Okay, what's his role in the story?"
"He doesn't have one, but won't it be totally awesome to have a monk-assasin?"
Note that I also said "cool" alongside "edgy", obviously some characters contains more of one than the other. Jack was mostly teenage edgy with the super evil experiments and Michael Vick-esque fighting ring. Thane is another, but on the "cool" scale of it. Even the old cast was not exempt from this. Garrus went from higly competent cop-on-the-edge to space punisher and Liara from shy, nerdy archeologist to ruthless information broker. Almost every character was turned into a (edgy) badass™.
True. I like the way Shamus Young put it:
Thane: I would be honored to help you fight the collectors, Shepard. Who is my target?
Shepard: Pardon?
Thane: I’m assassin. I assume you need me to assassinate somebody?
Shepard: (Shrugs) Beats me. We have no idea what the collectors are like or how we’re going to stop them.
Thane: So why are you asking me to join you now?
Shepard: I dunno. The quest journal says to go get people to join. I figure it’ll all just work out somehow.
However, it would seem that the characters were written by different people than wrote the plot, so I can't blame them for their characters not being used well.
There are days I would much prefer the Reapers over current set up.
Then I feel very sorry for you.
Because with a human government, there is at least hope that things can be changed. With the Reapers, you exist because they allow it and will end because they demand it.
Then I feel very sorry for you.
Because with a human government, there is at least hope that things can be changed. With the Reapers, you exist because they allow it and will end because they demand it.
Yea hope that it will change? You do realize the same jokes and ribs about problems with the government from shows that existed when my parents were kids are still viable right?
The basis of your argument is that they should have reacted more strongly to the revelation of some mysterious entity directing and controlling the Reapers. You have yet to show how this lack of reaction about learning this is actually wrong. All your statements are based on what if and/or simply looking into the realm of possibility which is endless. You don't actually show any hard facts from the game that would support your statement other then stating they should have done this or that. Which is pure hindsight without adding in cause and effect of the actions. I use in game reasons why they would ignore that information and focus on the Reapers as well as use logical cause and effect reasons why.
Show the proof to validate your complaints before your complaints are taken seriously by anyone but yourself and other people that think just like you.
Your movie examples are terrible examples because that is exactly what happens in game with the Crucible anyways. Using it as proof of going after the guiding intelligence behind the Reaper actions isn't very valid.
Hackett just like Aragon, soldiers in Zion and the Gungans buy time for the protagonist Shepard/Frodo/Neo/Anakin to stop the bad guy to stop the antagonist. Trying to use that to validate a completely unsupported claim that they should have gone full tilt on looking for the Reaper guiding intelligence is not supported by any of these statements. Mostly because it is again build on a big big super Citadel size if. That if being of course they are actually dependent on the guiding intelligence to survive. And in all your movie examples it is 100% known that the antagonist of Sauron/Machines/Droids are dependent and controlled by a centralized location and destroying it would cause the collapse. Particularly since the actions of the Reapers in ME 1, 2 and 3 all show they are capable of independent thought and action and not 100% dependent on the guiding intelligence.
Their less then big reaction to the news about a guiding intelligence fits with the over all game and is not some form of bad writing, story set up or what ever it is you want to classify it as. The Reapers are the current primary enemy. They need some way to fight back against them first. It is already taking every ounce of every race's resources to hold the combat lines as it is. To divert any resources to chase something that no one has ever found any hint about or would have no idea were to even start not Shepard or even Leviathan would have even the vaguest idea is stupid in the purest sense of the word. With more and more system falling under Reaper control it would make any attempt to follow any leads more and more dangerous ensuring that not only would the Reapers learn what they are trying to do much like they did with Leviathan. Having Reapers then actively hunting down any group trying to find answers for it if not simply out right taking the Citadel. Leaving them back at square one anyways.
This has to do with writing. I am questioning the purpose of the revelation. As it stands, it's meaningless other than to be "foreshadowing" for the Catalyst.
The Catalyst was a huge mistake from a writing perspective but there it is. So I'm commenting on ways to have better used that revelation on Thessia to make it as important as you claim it is.The characters don't care and if the characters don't care, the audience won't either. I am doing "what if" because the writing is terrible and my purpose is the think of ways it could have been done better. Pointing out mistakes only has value if you learn from it and do better next time. So yes, some of my ideas aren't in the game because they are ways to improve what is there. I don't know what you mean by "proof" since I'm talking about better alternatives.
No, you did not use in game reasons. You used flawed thinking based on a poor understanding of real-world military strategy.
The Aragorn defending Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith were separate from what Frodo was doing. The only analog is the attack on the Black Gate. Some of the soldiers in Zion didn't believe in the One so they weren't buying time for anything. The Gungans were a distraction for the other attack, yes, so you have me there for once. And there's a good argument to be made that they should have retreated both forces once the fighters got in the air. However, having all 3 going was more dramatic. (It may have been too much, actually, but that's a different conversation.)
The games don't show any of that independence. You only talk to one at a time. They are all doing the same thing. All you have is Sovereign's statement. And while they might have different personalities, they might still be dependent on the Central Intelligence. That was the case for the Zerg Cerebrates in StarCraft. You still can't avoid Strawmen, I see. I never said "go full tilt." Had they looked into it at all or even considered it, that would have been better.
You like to whine that others are more interested in being right than correct, which we all see as an obvious attempt to not have to address the arguments. However, this is clearly you since you aren't even satisfied that I said the characters could have used your list of excuses and the mere fact that they considered it would have been an improvement. But you'll keep telling me the revelation is a big deal without being able to tell me why it matters.
Their less then big reaction to the news about a guiding intelligence fits with the over all game and is not some form of bad writing, story set up or what ever it is you want to classify it as. The Reapers are the current primary enemy. They need some way to fight back against them first. It is already taking every ounce of every race's resources to hold the combat lines as it is. To divert any resources to chase something that no one has ever found any hint about or would have no idea were to even start not Shepard or even Leviathan would have even the vaguest idea is stupid in the purest sense of the word. With more and more system falling under Reaper control it would make any attempt to follow any leads more and more dangerous ensuring that not only would the Reapers learn what they are trying to do much like they did with Leviathan. Having Reapers then actively hunting down any group trying to find answers for it if not simply out right taking the Citadel. Leaving them back at square one anyways.
Apparently you miss how this applies to both the Crucible and the Leviathan research.
So literally any government ever in existence. Were they make the rules and you must follow them. You break the rules and they punish you.
Yeah, to a point, which is why I support limited, decentralized government.
Radio isn't on so you wouldn't hear it.
You are busy driving and looking at the road so you wouldn't see it
I have never seen a car radio where you can change the station when the radio is off.
Yea hope that it will change? You do realize the same jokes and ribs about problems with the government from shows that existed when my parents were kids are still viable right?
Valar Morghulis. The same can't be said about Reapers if you don't have a handy plot device such as the Crucible.
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