2368 réponses à ce sujet

[gothpunkboy89]

Valar Morghulis. The same can't be said about Reapers if you don't have a handy plot device such as the Crucible.

 

Maybe but for those 50,000 years between harvests you are allowed do do what ever you want without any interference from them.

[BloodyMares]

Maybe but for those 50,000 years between harvests you are allowed do do what ever you want without any interference from them.

Yay! I guess I should thank them for that.

[dorktainian]

Maybe but for those 50,000 years between harvests you are allowed do do what ever you want without any interference from them.

 

there are no words for this level of indoctrination.

[Dantriges]

Radio isn't on so you wouldn't hear it.

 

You are busy driving and looking at the road so you wouldn't see it

 

Dunno what kind of radio you have in mind, but the radio in my cars for puh the last 15 years only switch stations when the radio is actually working.

 

No idea where you think the radio is located, but mine is still in my peripheral vision when looking on the road so in case I take a peek at the radio (or the climatronic) for some reason, I still see the road.

[gothpunkboy89]

there are no words for this level of indoctrination.

 

Every action has a reaction. Every vice has it's cost.  Eventually everyone has to pay the piper for their song.

 

Besides isn't that the general attitude of the destroy is best option crowd? After all conflict is not solved and death of all organics is still well possible. Yet them living for their life span anyways is ok even if it means trillions of their great grandchildren will die.

[Natureguy85]

Every action has a reaction. Every vice has it's cost. Eventually everyone has to pay the piper for their song.

Besides isn't that the general attitude of the destroy is best option crowd? After all conflict is not solved and death of all organics is still well possible. Yet them living for their life span anyways is ok even if it means trillions of their great grandchildren will die.

So was Saren right? Is submission preferable to extinction?

[gothpunkboy89]

So was Saren right? Is submission preferable to extinction?

 

Who said anything about submission?

[Natureguy85]

Who said anything about submission?

 

Control is submitting to TIM or at least his ideology of Control. It's also the galaxy submitting to the Reapers, now under new and less homicidal management. Synthesis is submitting to the Catalyst's argument and purpose.

[straykat]

Control is submitting to TIM or at least his ideology of Control. It's also the galaxy submitting to the Reapers, now under new and less homicidal management. Synthesis is submitting to the Catalyst's argument and purpose.

 

Destroy is the only liberating choice. Synthesis has no authoritarian element, but it's not liberating as far as evolution or potential goes. It just sees one path and speaks in terms of ideals. That doesn't free anyone or let anyone be creative. It's like forcing a specific diet and telling everyone they must listen to the same music style for eternity. And they'll never have a chance to go back and see what could or could not be done otherwise.

[Elhanan]

Destroy is the only liberating choice. Synthesis has no authoritarian element, but it's not liberating as far as evolution or potential goes. It just sees one path and speaks in terms of ideals. That doesn't free anyone or let anyone be creative. It's like forcing a specific diet and telling everyone they must listen to the same music style for eternity. And they'll never have a chance to go back and see what could or could not be done otherwise.

I see nothing in Synthesis that forces every living creature to lose their individuality. All creatures now have Organic and Synthetic DNA; not one mass produced mindset. And the past civilizations add to the known culture, so new cultural achievements are apparently possible, too.

But the Reapers now understand Organic life, and Organics now comprehend Synthetics, so past grievances can be set aside to make peaceful advances in both.

[BloodyMares]

I see nothing in Synthesis that forces every living creature to lose their individuality. All creatures now have Organic and Synthetic DNA; not one mass produced mindset. And the past civilizations add to the known culture, so new cultural achievements are apparently possible, too.

What if I don't want any synthetic DNA in my previously organic body? Humans and other species are often driven by emotion, not logic. Imagine I am one of those people. How am I supposed to live with myself now that I was altered in this horrible way? How can I get rid of this? Is suicide my only option? Because I won't accept this new reality no matter how hard I try. And there will be many of those people. Their freedom doesn't matter? And what about those zombie husks? Are they happy? Are they accepted into society or are they hated for what they've done? Do they have any freedom of choice?

[straykat]

What if I don't want any synthetic DNA in my previously organic body? Humans and other species are often driven by emotion, not logic. Imagine I am one of those people. How am I supposed to live with myself now that I was altered in this horrible way? How can I get rid of this? Is suicide my only option? Because I won't accept this new reality no matter how hard I try. And there will be many of those people. Their freedom doesn't matter? And what about those zombie husks? Are they happy? Are they accepted into society or are they hated for what they've done? Do they have any freedom of choice?

 

I know I would kill myself. Too bad everyone is happy in the slides. Would be nice to see one person with their hands waving in the air or something. "WTF?"

[Elhanan]

What if I don't want any synthetic DNA in my previously organic body? Humans and other species are often driven by emotion, not logic. Imagine I am one of those people. How am I supposed to live with myself now that I was altered in this horrible way? How can I get rid of this? Is suicide my only option? Because I won't accept this new reality no matter how hard I try. And there will be many of those people. Their freedom doesn't matter? And what about those zombie husks? Are they happy? Are they accepted into society or are they hated for what they've done? Do they have any freedom of choice?

As the choices are death for a species, domination over a species, or having mixed DNA to all species, I prefer the latter choice. As Shepard makes the call solo for any of them, the choice is not up for a vote.

[Natureguy85]

Destroy is the only liberating choice. Synthesis has no authoritarian element, but it's not liberating as far as evolution or potential goes. It just sees one path and speaks in terms of ideals. That doesn't free anyone or let anyone be creative. It's like forcing a specific diet and telling everyone they must listen to the same music style for eternity. And they'll never have a chance to go back and see what could or could not be done otherwise.

Well that's pretty authoritarian. You're right that it's not on-going, but Shepard imposes it on the galaxy.

Destroy does what he was sent there to do, just with new, sad consequences. I've talked before or elsewhere about the forced pathos of using Earth as the focus. I wonder how things would go if it was Earth always being destroyed, not Synthetics.

[Natureguy85]

I know I would kill myself. Too bad everyone is happy in the slides. Would be nice to see one person with their hands waving in the air or something. "WTF?"

Well they do have that blank look in the cutscene with the soldiers and husks.

[dorktainian]

As the choices are death for a species, domination over a species, or having mixed DNA to all species, I prefer the latter choice. As Shepard makes the call solo for any of them, the choice is not up for a vote.

 

So you would have unlimited genetic mutation of entire species over killing the reapers?  

 

I would rather just do what shepard did in refusing to listen to starjar and not use the crucible.

[straykat]

Well that's pretty authoritarian. You're right that it's not on-going, but Shepard imposes it on the galaxy.

Destroy does what he was sent there to do, just with new, sad consequences. I've talked before or elsewhere about the forced pathos of using Earth as the focus. I wonder how things would go if it was Earth always being destroyed, not Synthetics.

 

Even with the sad consequences, I would be open to seeing what AI do eventually as well. And even that is liberating, since the Reapers aren't involved to disrupt or change the course of everything again. Whatever their original intentions with AI, they did more harm than good.. and used outdated info from the era of Leviathan to condemn everyone for millions of years. People deserve how it works out without all of that ****. For better or worse. But sometimes when just one jerk leaves a party, everyone enjoys themselves.

 

No matter how scary the AI relationship with organics, that too should develop on it's own terms. I don't think it's inevitable that we'd be doomed because of it. The Catalyst came from a time of nothing but slaves and masters. And those slaves who were killed by AI were probably not well equipped to defend themselves. They were slaves. How creative could they have been? And then Leviathan assumes it's a problem of organics? Rather their own problem of being slavers.

 

But yeah, in any case, this is what we're sent to do. /rant off

[gothpunkboy89]

Control is submitting to TIM or at least his ideology of Control. It's also the galaxy submitting to the Reapers, now under new and less homicidal management. Synthesis is submitting to the Catalyst's argument and purpose.

 

TIM's ideology was to use the Reapers to advance mankind and put them on a golden throne above all other races from now to the end of time.  I don't see the connection.

 

Synthesis is an eventuality. The difference is you can take the short cut that hurts literally no one. Or you can take the long way that has trillions of deaths and possible wiping out of all organic life before reaching that point.

[Elhanan]

So you would have unlimited genetic mutation of entire species over killing the reapers?  
 
I would rather just do what shepard did in refusing to listen to starjar and not use the crucible.

Failing to do anything has never been an option for my gameplay; still have yet to see that outcome.

[dorktainian]

TIM's ideology was to use the Reapers to advance mankind and put them on a golden throne above all other races from now to the end of time.  I don't see the connection.

 

Synthesis is an eventuality. The difference is you can take the short cut that hurts literally no one. Or you can take the long way that has trillions of deaths and possible wiping out of all organic life before reaching that point.

 

OK.  Let's assume you are correct.  You can theoretically save trillions of lives by flicking the green switch - thereby ensuring we all reach the pinacle of evolution.  Now have a think about that for a moment.  What do the reapers consider the pinacle of evolution?  What does star jar consider the pinacle of evolution?

 

Now look at it from the enemy's perspective.  If all else fails, how would you convince an organic not to press the 'reaper self destruct' button?  How would you ensure the survival of your 'species' of murdering machines? Another reason for not choosing Synthesis is that Synthesis is the very thing Shepard has been fighting against since he met Saren.  

 

Who is to say Synthesis doesn't kill everyone and upload them into a Reaper mainframe?

 

Everything is of reaper origin, ergo you must assume that the crucible itself is of reaper design.  Why would the reaper general want you to use it?

 

It's tempting isnt it?  To use the crucible on the promise of what might be.  You can control the Reapers, You can even Destroy the reapers.  Or you can become the reapers (or a reaper with the collective intelligence of you and all sentient creatures alive at the time of your 'choice').  You can however choose to do things on our own terms by refusing the use of the crucible and fighting on.  (cut to the crucible going 'out' and shep being alone in space)

 

I would rather refuse to use their technology and its promise to perform an action which has no guarantee of actually occurring.  Each to their own tho.

[Iakus]

I know I would kill myself. Too bad everyone is happy in the slides. Would be nice to see one person with their hands waving in the air or something. "WTF?"

Getting Smilies Painted On Your Soul

[Iakus]

OK.  Let's assume you are correct.  You can theoretically save trillions of lives by flicking the green switch - thereby ensuring we all reach the pinacle of evolution.  Now have a think about that for a moment.  What do the reapers consider the pinacle of evolution?  What does star jar consider the pinacle of evolution?

 

Thinking you have reached perfection or "the final evolution" is the first step towards stagnation and eventual obsolescence.

[BloodyMares]

Thinking you have reached perfection or "the final evolution" is the first step towards stagnation and eventual obsolescence.

Exactly. There is no such thing as the "pinnacle of evolution". With each evolution you have a new challenge that makes you evolve even further.

[gothpunkboy89]

OK.  Let's assume you are correct.  You can theoretically save trillions of lives by flicking the green switch - thereby ensuring we all reach the pinacle of evolution.  Now have a think about that for a moment.  What do the reapers consider the pinacle of evolution?  What does star jar consider the pinacle of evolution?

 

Now look at it from the enemy's perspective.  If all else fails, how would you convince an organic not to press the 'reaper self destruct' button?  How would you ensure the survival of your 'species' of murdering machines? Another reason for not choosing Synthesis is that Synthesis is the very thing Shepard has been fighting against since he met Saren.  

 

Who is to say Synthesis doesn't kill everyone and upload them into a Reaper mainframe?

 

Everything is of reaper origin, ergo you must assume that the crucible itself is of reaper design.  Why would the reaper general want you to use it?

 

It's tempting isnt it?  To use the crucible on the promise of what might be.  You can control the Reapers, You can even Destroy the reapers.  Or you can become the reapers (or a reaper with the collective intelligence of you and all sentient creatures alive at the time of your 'choice').  You can however choose to do things on our own terms by refusing the use of the crucible and fighting on.  (cut to the crucible going 'out' and shep being alone in space)

 

I would rather refuse to use their technology and its promise to perform an action which has no guarantee of actually occurring.  Each to their own tho.

 

Catalyst defines the pinnacle of organic evolution that complete integration of technology into the organic body used to not only compensate for it's short comings but enhance it well beyond what evolution would be capable of doing. Which if you pay attention is exactly what is happening in the ME and even our universe.  You really think a light weight computer that can fit on your wrist and activates a holographic display and interface is actually necessary? How about VI programs that handle a variety of tasks from simulation running to checking your e-mails for you. And with each introduction of new technology does it not increase the quality of life for everyone who gets a hold of it?

 

An easier way to convince an organic not to press the Reaper self destruct button is to simply leave them bleeding to death on the lower floor and not invite them up for a talk. You ignore the tap dancing elephant in the room that Shepard after dealing with TIM pushes a button opening the arms. The Crucible docks and nothing happens and Shepard has no idea what is happening. Shepard then blacks out from his/her injuries. We then see the platform rise despite Shepard not doing anything which leads to the Catalyst waking Shepard up to talk to him/her. If the entire point of the Catalyst's conversation was to prevent Shepard from destroying the Reapers literally all it had to do was leave Shepard alone and he/she would have died of his/her injuries in the bowels of the citadel and never had to worry about it.

 

https://youtu.be/axvRQ7gPrUI?t=56m20s

 

Seriously unless Shepard spontaneously gained the same powers as Neo from the Matrix movies if all that Catalyst wanted is to prevent the destruction of the Reapers all it had to do was leave Shepard alone.

 

The ending says that it doesn't kill everyone and upload them into a Reaper mainframe. This also directly ignores that doing so would violate the very action the Catalyst is trying to do. The Catalyst only targets advanced organic life leaving room for less advanced life to develop and take the place. Or to put it another way like buying a gun to protect yourself and you family then shooting them all in the head to protect them from being hurt.

 

All technology is not of Reaper design the original Mass Effect technology was created by the Leviathan race. With it they used it to spread across the galaxy. Now the Reapers certainly improved on it since it does not seem like the Relay System existed during Leviathan's time. And they certainly left scraps from previous cycles behind to help speed up the development of current cycle. But to state everything is of Reaper origin is a lot like saying all (insert race) are (insert stereotype).

 

Yes you can do many things and that is the point. The Catalyst gives Shepard the choice on how to proceed with future events. The Cycle is breaking down and a new action is needed to protect organics from the conflict with synthetics.

 

Destroy, Control and Synthesis are choices that might result in the death of trillions of lives. Refuse is the only option that directly ensures the death of trillions of lives. This is a grand irony I find when people complain about synthesis not giving people a choice in them being altered. Refuse equally gives them no say in the matter and rather then being physically altered a bit and still you know alive. It simply makes it a 100% guarantee they will be killed.

 

But I guess a couple trillion lives are worth the price to stand on that soap box.

[gothpunkboy89]

Exactly. There is no such thing as the "pinnacle of evolution". With each evolution you have a new challenge that makes you evolve even further.

 

One ending is a new beginning. Which is the point the Catalyst was stating. By our current standards synthesis is the pinnacle of evolution.