2368 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

One ending is a new beginning. Which is the point the Catalyst was stating. By our current standards synthesis is the pinnacle of evolution.

 

There's no such thing as a pinnacle to evolution. Evolution is like a web or tree with many branches.

[gothpunkboy89]

There's no such thing as a pinnacle to evolution. Evolution is like a web or tree with many branches.

 

And before each new higher branch is formed the lower one is the pinnacle of the tree.

[straykat]

Pinnacle means the very top. There's no such thing with evolution. It's a rather bleak view on life to say there is. But I can't expect much different from an AI. A shoddy AI at that.

 

Even the word Evolve exudes movement. Pinnacle is a more static word.

[Natureguy85]

That there is no such thing as a pinnacle of evolution is an issue of the real world believably, at least the way you guys are arguing about it.. This is similar to getting hung up on the real world scientific problems with Mass Relays.

 

The problem with Synthesis from that angle is that it is a lazy "push button, get Utopia" to be the good ending.

 

 

 

TIM's ideology was to use the Reapers to advance mankind and put them on a golden throne above all other races from now to the end of time.  I don't see the connection.

 

Synthesis is an eventuality. The difference is you can take the short cut that hurts literally no one. Or you can take the long way that has trillions of deaths and possible wiping out of all organic life before reaching that point.

 

TIM had a different purpose for Controlling the Reapers, but thematically, both are taking over the Reapers to achieve their purpose. My problem is that this was always presented as a bad idea that ended in disaster, much like the idea of using The One Ring from LotR.

 

 

 

Destroy, Control and Synthesis are choices that might result in the death of trillions of lives. Refuse is the only option that directly ensures the death of trillions of lives. This is a grand irony I find when people complain about synthesis not giving people a choice in them being altered. Refuse equally gives them no say in the matter and rather then being physically altered a bit and still you know alive. It simply makes it a 100% guarantee they will be killed.

 

But I guess a couple trillion lives are worth the price to stand on that soap box.

 

This is true, which is why some saw the inclusion of this ending as written to be Bioware flipping fans the bird.

[straykat]

That there is no such thing as a pinnacle of evolution is an issue of the real world believably, at least the way you guys are arguing about it.. This is similar to getting hung up on the real world scientific problems with Mass Relays.

 

The problem with Synthesis from that angle is that it is a lazy "push button, get Utopia" to be the good ending.

 

 

I just think the nature of evolution is an ongoing story. Or stories. While this is trying to saying there's an end to the story and it's what we're "supposed" to be. It's silly. Silly not just for saying there's an end.. but silly for saying there's an authority who says there's an end too. Suddenly it's a game with a referee deciding the rules? 

 

I'm not just criticizing some space magicky thing.. it's just ignoring the fundamental idea to even make this seem true.

[gothpunkboy89]

That there is no such thing as a pinnacle of evolution is an issue of the real world believably, at least the way you guys are arguing about it.. This is similar to getting hung up on the real world scientific problems with Mass Relays.

 

The problem with Synthesis from that angle is that it is a lazy "push button, get Utopia" to be the good ending.

 

 

 

 

TIM had a different purpose for Controlling the Reapers, but thematically, both are taking over the Reapers to achieve their purpose. My problem is that this was always presented as a bad idea that ended in disaster, much like the idea of using The One Ring from LotR.

 

 

 

 

This is true, which is why some saw the inclusion of this ending as written to be Bioware flipping fans the bird.

 

Every evolution reaches an apex before it changes into something else. You can only improve on something so much before it alters into something new. But I get the feeling you are taking things very literally just so you can contradict something in game. Even though the meaning of the statement is very clear.

 

So synthesis is push button and get utopia but control, destroy and refuse (for the next cycle) isn't? Different utopias to be sure but utopias none the less.

 

Thematically they are nothing like between control ending and what TIM had in mind. TIM had subjugation in mind Shepard does not. You miss the problem with your argument about One Ring and Control ending.

 

You see the One Ring can not be used because it is literally a divine object. Sauron is an angel is converted to more Christian terminology. Mortal Man and Dwarf can not use the ring because they contain no divine power in them. The Elfs could control it for a short time because they have some divinity in them but since Sauron put so much of his power into it it is still well above the Elves level to control. Even other divine beings like Gandalf or Saruman could not control it because again Sauron is a higher order then they are and they have their limitations put on them. They are not allowed to directly confront Sauron even though they would have the combined power to fight him.

 

Once Shepard is uploaded into the Catalyst he/she is no longer a mortal man trying to control something as close to divine power as exists in the game world. It is a bad idea for TIM because giving the power of God to a man particularly a very ambitious man is always a bad idea. Once Shep is uploaded how ever it alters from a mortal man trying to control the One Ring to a being on par with Sauron controlling the One Ring. Which at that point it would be possible and wouldn't be a terrible idea.

 

You need to see the differences between the two set ups. TIM getting control and AI Shep getting control are about as similar any way shape or form as an apple and a cow is.

 

 

But the refuse ending isn't flipping anyone the bird. What is it with people and their overly sensitive reaction to things. Do these people also start screaming at anyone who doesn't say bless you after they sneeze? Do they go on long rants to friends, family and social media when someone doesn't hold the door open for them? Those people that think it is BioWare flipping them the bird are some of the most petty, thin skinned people in existence and are to be laughed at not taken seriously.

 

If you don't like the choices given your only other option is to refuse them and refusal has it's own cause and effect.

[straykat]

Destroy isn't a utopia. It's chaos.

 

It's up to you decide whether that's a good thing or not.

[themikefest]

destroy is excellent. It gives folks a future without having the threat of the reapers

[Natureguy85]

Every evolution reaches an apex before it changes into something else. You can only improve on something so much before it alters into something new. But I get the feeling you are taking things very literally just so you can contradict something in game. Even though the meaning of the statement is very clear.

 

Ah, your old fallback when you can't actually think of anything to say. I didn't even argue the point. I said it didn't really matter, but hey, why bother reacting to what I actually said, right?

 

Out of curiosity, the Catalyst says "final evolution of life." Go ahead and enlighten us as to what mystical meaning that is supposed to have.

 

 

 

So synthesis is push button and get utopia but control, destroy and refuse (for the next cycle) isn't? Different utopias to be sure but utopias none the less.

 

No, they are not utopias, but an existence without the Reapers. You really need to learn what words mean before you use them. Destroy might be pretty rough. Control and Refuse (for the next cycle) still paint pretty good hopeful pictures, though some of that depends on choices.

 

 

 

Thematically they are nothing like between control ending and what TIM had in mind. TIM had subjugation in mind Shepard does not. You miss the problem with your argument about One Ring and Control ending.

 

No, I don't. You don't understand what themes are. The point was that Control is bad, even if you have good intentions.  The Control ending says that it's fine as long as you have a pure heart. If you carry that over to LotR, you'd say that Gandalf or Frodo should use the Ring because they are good people.

 

 

 

You see the One Ring can not be used because it is literally a divine object. Sauron is an angel is converted to more Christian terminology. Mortal Man and Dwarf can not use the ring because they contain no divine power in them. The Elfs could control it for a short time because they have some divinity in them but since Sauron put so much of his power into it it is still well above the Elves level to control. Even other divine beings like Gandalf or Saruman could not control it because again Sauron is a higher order then they are and they have their limitations put on them. They are not allowed to directly confront Sauron even though they would have the combined power to fight him.

 

Actually, Sauron is the same order as Gandalf, the other wizards and the Balrog. Sauron may be stronger than them. but they are all Maiar. They can't control it because it has a will of its own and only serves Sauron. He designed it that way. Others can only use a small portion of its power, but it corrupts them and calls to Sauron and the Nazgul.

 

Awesome videos:

 

 

 

 

Credit to this article which also goes into what I was talking about as far as the theme of Control. This one too.

 

 

 

 

 

Once Shepard is uploaded into the Catalyst he/she is no longer a mortal man trying to control something as close to divine power as exists in the game world. It is a bad idea for TIM because giving the power of God to a man particularly a very ambitious man is always a bad idea. Once Shep is uploaded how ever it alters from a mortal man trying to control the One Ring to a being on par with Sauron controlling the One Ring. Which at that point it would be possible and wouldn't be a terrible idea.

 

TIM would be uploaded in the same way. So wouldn't that also be fine since he would suddenly be a superior being? And again, Gandalf and Sarumon were on the level with Sauron. Why didn't Gandalf just take the Ring from Frodo right at the beginning and take care of business?

 

 

 

You need to see the differences between the two set ups. TIM getting control and AI Shep getting control are about as similar any way shape or form as an apple and a cow is.

 

No, they aren't because the issue is that Control is bad, regardless of who is doing the Controlling. Again, this is like saying Gandalf should have used the Ring because he's a good guy.

 

Now if you want to take issue with the idea that Control and the Reapers are presented in a similar way to the Ring, then that's a different discussion.

 

 

 

But the refuse ending isn't flipping anyone the bird. What is it with people and their overly sensitive reaction to things. Do these people also start screaming at anyone who doesn't say bless you after they sneeze? Do they go on long rants to friends, family and social media when someone doesn't hold the door open for them? Those people that think it is BioWare flipping them the bird are some of the most petty, thin skinned people in existence and are to be laughed at not taken seriously.

 

If you don't like the choices given your only other option is to refuse them and refusal has it's own cause and effect.

 

Blah blah blah, self righteous rant. No substance as usual. Nobody cares.

 

Rejection of the choices given should have been in the original game and should have been a path to victory somehow. There are ways to have set that up, but it would have fit with the themes and tone of the series.

[Elhanan]

destroy is excellent. It gives folks a future without having the threat of the reapers

Well, until the cycle repeats at least. And as a bonus, no Synthetic life at all to help with repairs, exploration, etc.

[themikefest]

Well, until the cycle repeats at least. And as a bonus, no Synthetic life at all to help with repairs, exploration, etc.

If you want to believe the cycle will repeat, go ahead. If it does, the galaxy can deal with it without having the reapers around

[gothpunkboy89]

Ah, your old fallback when you can't actually think of anything to say. I didn't even argue the point. I said it didn't really matter, but hey, why bother reacting to what I actually said, right?

 

Out of curiosity, the Catalyst says "final evolution of life." Go ahead and enlighten us as to what mystical meaning that is supposed to have.

 

You are nit picking about evolution not having a pinnacle even though it can. You can only improve something so much before it changes into something new. Creatures like sharks, crocodiles, lampreys and horseshoe crabs show very little variations from fossil records. You could say with a high degree of accuracy they are the pinnacle of evolution for their species given how little they have changed over millions of years.

 

There is no mythical meaning behind it it is exactly as it says. The end point of our evolutionary progress which is the integration of technology into ourselves to improve ourselves drastically. Unless you believe in something closer to Interstellar film that states Humanity will eventually evolve beyond moral bodies into being of energy capable of traveling across the 4th dimension (time) at will.

 

No, they are not utopias, but an existence without the Reapers. You really need to learn what words mean before you use them. Destroy might be pretty rough. Control and Refuse (for the next cycle) still paint pretty good hopeful pictures, though some of that depends on choices.

 

Utopia is in the mind of the creator. What you find to be a utopia isn't what I would find to be a utopia. Each choice creates a post Reaper utopia based on that choice. Synthesis is no more flip a switch and instantly every thing is perfect anymore then the other ending choices. Honestly it almost seems like you are some how jealous of synthesis ending some how.

 

 

No, I don't. You don't understand what themes are. The point was that Control is bad, even if you have good intentions.  The Control ending says that it's fine as long as you have a pure heart. If you carry that over to LotR, you'd say that Gandalf or Frodo should use the Ring because they are good people.

 

Oh I understand themes the problem is you are confusing things. See the reason control is bad with TIM is because again mortal man trying to control the power of god (metaphorically speaking) is always a bad idea. Shepard when uploaded literally and metaphorically transcends his mortal body and becomes a god himself. Thus he is capable of controlling the power and not letting it corrupt him.

 

If Gandalf or Frodo suddenly gained the same power as Tom Bombadil then yea they could use it. Because the Ring wasn't even capable of turning him invisible and gives so few cares about the Ring Gandalf is legitimately afraid he would lose it.

 

Actually, Sauron is the same order as Gandalf, the other wizards and the Balrog. Sauron may be stronger than them. but they are all Maiar. They can't control it because it has a will of its own and only serves Sauron. He designed it that way. Others can only use a small portion of its power, but it corrupts them and calls to Sauron and the Nazgul.

 

And yet again Tom Bombadil was able to use it and wasn't effected slightly by it. Sauron is known for manipulating man, elf, dwarf and other though their ambition. The Ring works the same way and best highlighted by Galadriel's and Sam's reaction to the Ring. Neither of them wanted to do bad things but wanted to do good working on their ambition to improve the world it effects them. And that is why the Ring had no effect on Tom because he had no ambition to be used against him. Like wise the Hobbits are so resistant to the effects of it because they are so content with their own life that they have no real ambition to be manipulated and corrupted.

 

And this is were you start to lose the connection between the two. TIM getting control the Reapers or the One Ring is a bad thing because his life is an obsession with ambition which would be manipulated and altered corrupting him. Or at least corrupting him even more depending on were you stand on his ideology. Which is why it is a bad thing. Once Shepard is uploaded he loses all that ambition that would cause him to be corrupted with the power.  Shepard at that point becomes Tom Bombadil and is incapable of being corrupted anymore by the power.

 

You really seem to be confusing themes with each other just so you can take a jab at the game even when the themes you are trying to connect don't actually connect without some mental gymnastics and a blow torch to wield the non fitting pieces together. I kind of consider it cheating when you shave off the corners of a square peg then use a hammer to force it though a round hole.

 

TIM would be uploaded in the same way. So wouldn't that also be fine since he would suddenly be a superior being? And again, Gandalf and Sarumon were on the level with Sauron. Why didn't Gandalf just take the Ring from Frodo right at the beginning and take care of business?

 

But he wouldn't have. Nothing about his attempts to develop control over the Reapers ever hinted at him doing that. Everything TIM was shown to be doing was all about controlling them using their own technology against them. That is why he didn't build his own Crucible that is why he went out of his way to attempt to sabotage the actions of Shepard by stealing the plans initially and why it took the VI from Thessia. Why he was doing the experiments in Sanctuary. Even if you remove the fact he was indoctrinated and thus would be incapable of being uploaded because the Catalyst would never allow it. None of his actions even vaguely hint at him knowing or even guessing about the real ability to control the Reapers.  He could have opened the Citadel arms long before Shepard reached it. He could have waited for it to dock then uploaded himself but he didn't.

 

It is statements like this that make me question if you actually played the game or actually remember what happened in it.

 

No, they aren't because the issue is that Control is bad, regardless of who is doing the Controlling. Again, this is like saying Gandalf should have used the Ring because he's a good guy.

 

Now if you want to take issue with the idea that Control and the Reapers are presented in a similar way to the Ring, then that's a different discussion

 

No it isn't. Someone trying to control something they don't understand and don't have the ability to understand in their current form is a bad thing. But once you transcend those limitations and you are not driven by greed, ambition and power seeking. Gandalf could not use the ring because his ambition to stop Sauron and help everyone would get the better of him.

 

But by all means please keep beating this dead horse some more.

 

Blah blah blah, self righteous rant. No substance as usual. Nobody cares.

 

Rejection of the choices given should have been in the original game and should have been a path to victory somehow. There are ways to have set that up, but it would have fit with the themes and tone of the series.

 

No self righteous rant. It is amusing as heck that people would genuinely feel like BioWare is insulting them with refuse ending. And best encapsulates everything wrong with the gamers across all games. When developers do something or change something and their ego automatically assumes it was done specifically go ****** them the gamer off.

 

Rejection is not a path to victory since it is already stated and shown that the galaxy can not take on the Reapers in any conventional warfare. Rejecting the choices offered to you thanks to the Crucible means you are again needing to rely on conventional warfare to win. I do agree that it should have been in the vanilla game but it was added in because players demanded an option besides the the original choices.  Players wanted to be able to refuse the options. They are given that choice with the rather obvious consequences of that action. Then complain that it is an insult to them.

 

And I thought Trump had a massive ego.

[Iakus]

Well, until the cycle repeats at least. And as a bonus, no Synthetic life at all to help with repairs, exploration, etc.

Who says the cycle will repeat itself?  Besides the broken VI/AI that is the Catalyst?  I'm not about to trust its judgement there

 

It's the "no synthetic life at all" part that makes the choice problematic

[Reorte]

Every evolution reaches an apex before it changes into something else. You can only improve on something so much before it alters into something new.

Wrong, that's not what evolution is.

[Elhanan]

If you want to believe the cycle will repeat, go ahead. If it does, the galaxy can deal with it without having the reapers around

Or any other Synthetic form of life until it does start again. And seeing as it has occurred before in past cycles, data appears to suggest a repeat performance for the future.

[Natureguy85]

Or any other Synthetic form of life until it does start again. And seeing as it has occurred before in past cycles, data appears to suggest a repeat performance for the future.

 

There is no data, at least not any presented to the player.

[themikefest]

Or any other Synthetic form of life until it does start again. And seeing as it has occurred before in past cycles, data appears to suggest a repeat performance for the future.

It has occurred in the past except the reapers were around to harvest instead of sitting back to see if the machines would wipeout all organics. But the catalyst can't do that thanks to Leviathan the idiot.

 

The protheans seem to be holding their own in their cycle until dumb-dumb and its toys interfered. The same with the geth and quarians. The quarians would've destroyed the geth if the reapers never interfered.

 

I would guess other cycles were doing well against the machines until the reapers decided to interfere.

[Elhanan]

There is no data, at least not any presented to the player.

Javik offers testimony to others while on board the Normandy.

[Reorte]

Javik offers testimony to others while on board the Normandy.

Of machines that, IIRC, were also getting beaten. There is no data suggesting that organic-machine conflict is any more noteworthy than organic-organic conflict.

[Dantriges]

They nova´d the Zha´til after their empire was in ruins and the Zha´til allied themselves with the Reapers. Makes you wonder if Javik knows the whole story and sounds a lot like the Prothean empire reached an agreement pre Reaper or that they were kept around simply for propaganda/scapegoat purposes. Pre war: We need to stay united aginst the threat of the machines. After the Reapers: Oh they are actually fighting us, bam, problem solved.

[Elhanan]

Of machines that, IIRC, were also getting beaten. There is no data suggesting that organic-machine conflict is any more noteworthy than organic-organic conflict.

Reapers....

[Dantriges]

Headstart because their organic masters sucked at controlling their AIs, but had a lot of tech. And well, the Catalyst actually sucked at reasoning, too. He just sold it better. Every other AI was a joke.

[Natureguy85]

Javik offers testimony to others while on board the Normandy.

 

Javik is optional DLC and therefore not plot integral, even though he should be.

[gothpunkboy89]

Javik is optional DLC and therefore not plot integral, even though he should be.

 

Just because it is DLC doesn't make it not plot integral.

[BloodyMares]

Just because it is DLC doesn't make it not plot integral.

The thing is, you can't explain plot through DLC because not everyone can have it. All the necessary things for the main plot should be in the base game that has no DLC. Either make these DLC free so everyone can experience them or don't include plot-relevant information in these DLC like they did with Arrival and Leviathan DLCs.