2407 réponses à ce sujet

[BloodyMares]

The geth can be turned into allies, true, but it's something very difficult to achieve, and in any case they were a big foe during the 80% of the trilogy. Every geth you met except legion tried to kill you. Every single one.

Edi was a rogue AI too.

 

The catalyst is just saying that something that have proven to be a dangerous enemy (you have direct experience about that), in the future will be again a (more and more) dangerous enemy. This is absolutely plausible. In my playthrough, before meeting the catalyst, I deliberatly destroyed the geth, because I believe that they were not trustworthy, and in the future they could be as dangerous as the reapers. I've spent 3 games killing hordes of them, and now they are my friend? No way.

You can be doubtful about tech singularity (even if it almost insignificant, your direct experience of the potential peace between organics and synthetic must be taken into account), but call it absurd, irrational etc? Wtf man

Says who? The peace was actually very easy to achieve once everyone uses their brains. The only reason why the peace was difficult to achieve was because Gerrel was a stubborn jerk and refused to listen.

 

80%? How did you come to that exact number? In ME1 they were a main enemy but if you complete all the sidequests then they only take half the screen time. . ME2 undermined all of that and said that all these  Geth we fought were Heretics and accepted Sovereign's offer while the remaining Geth did not. So it means that it wasn't the Geth that were a threat, it was Sovereign and the Reapers that used Heretics for their goal. In ME3 we fight the true Geth, but once again they are Reaper controlled. And who started the conflict? Right, quarians. They attacked and the Geth out of despair submitted to Reapers in exchange for upgrades. So, no. Every single geth we've encountered were Reaper controlled and that's why they attacked us. They were just a tool for the Reapers. You don't blame a hammer that crushed someone's head. You blame the one that was holding the hammer.

 

EDI wasn't a rogue AI. It was a VI that gained consciousness. Her attack was that of an animal. It wasn't of ill intent but fear.

This is plausible but not the case in the current cycle of Mass Effect. Geth can be destroyed or befriended (The destruction of organics is inevitable you say?) and EDI is as loyal as most trusted friends.

 

So you just chose to believe the Catalyst over the Geth. Weird, since Reapers killed far more than the Geth.

[gothpunkboy89]

Says who? The peace was actually very easy to achieve once everyone uses their brains. The only reason why the peace was difficult to achieve was because Gerrel was a stubborn jerk and refused to listen.

 

 

Geth went kill all organics post Morning War.

 

Only agrees to be allies after the Reapers double cross them and threaten them with a force they couldn't possibly hope to stop by themselves.

[BloodyMares]

Geth went kill all organics post Morning War.

Went where? They didn't go beyond Perseus Veil. Intruders were killed (their intention doesn't matter, they are still intruders), not "all organics". Any synthetic intruder would be eliminated as well.

[gothpunkboy89]

Went where? They didn't go beyond Perseus Veil. Intruders were killed (their intention doesn't matter, they are still intruders), not "all organics". Any synthetic intruder would be eliminated as well.

 

Literally any ship that was not the Geth since the end of the Morning War has never been seen again. The Council even sent ambassadors to the Geth post Morning War in an attempt to negotiate a peace treaty. They were killed on sight by the Geth. Which is why all the races of the galaxy spend so many credits keeping a highly armed Fleet at their Relay connection to the Perseus Veil.

 

Intention does matter. In fact intention is 100% what matters. Because if I shoot someone with one intention I'm a murder looking at a couple decades in jail. And another intention I'm someone simply trying to defend myself.

 

See the big they they set up in ME 1 is that no ship ever gone into there intentionally or unintentionally has never come back. Which means the Geth don't even give a warning to turn back. Then destroying ships that refuse to comply. Their first and only action is to blow it to hell. That is why the Geth were the bad guys in ME 1. The entire game set up was them being inherently hostile towards organics. They had to do some quick and simple retcon to remove the Geth are inherently hateful of organic set up when they attempted to shift the story towards the dark energy set up which necessitated a different tone.

 

Which is were I think the problems start when ME 3 steered back towards the original concept of ME 1 which is the conflict between organic and synthetic races. Though I do like what they did with the Geth in ME 2 because it make them a lot more fleshed out and interesting then just evil robots that want to kill all organics like ME 1.

[kal_reegar]

Says who? The peace was actually very easy to achieve once everyone uses their brains. The only reason why the peace was difficult to achieve was because Gerrel was a stubborn jerk and refused to listen.

 

80%? How did you come to that exact number? In ME1 they were a main enemy but if you complete all the sidequests then they only take half the screen time. . ME2 undermined all of that and said that all these  Geth we fought were Heretics and accepted Sovereign's offer while the remaining Geth did not. So it means that it wasn't the Geth that were a threat, it was Sovereign and the Reapers that used Heretics for their goal. In ME3 we fight the true Geth, but once again they are Reaper controlled. And who started the conflict? Right, quarians. They attacked and the Geth out of despair submitted to Reapers in exchange for upgrades. So, no. Every single geth we've encountered were Reaper controlled and that's why they attacked us. They were just a tool for the Reapers. You don't blame a hammer that crushed someone's head. You blame the one that was holding the hammer.

 

EDI wasn't a rogue AI. It was a VI that gained consciousness. Her attack was that of an animal. It wasn't of ill intent but fear.

This is plausible but not the case in the current cycle of Mass Effect. Geth can be destroyed or befriended (The destruction of organics is inevitable you say?) and EDI is as loyal as most trusted friends.

 

So you just chose to believe the Catalyst over the Geth. Weird, since Reapers killed far more than the Geth.

 

1. it's difficult to achieve because in order to unlock it you need to have Legion alive, Tali admiral, do a few the subquest etc. So there are canon playthrough in which geth-quarian peace is not achieved.

 

2. 80%. All the geth you see (direct experience, right) except Legion are enemies in all ME1 (33%), all ME2 (33%) a a good portion of Me3 (15%). 80%, more or less. Wtf, man, 70%, 80%, 90%... who cares.

 

3. rogue VI, yes. Unimportant. Edi was a self-consciouss synth intelligence trying to kill every organic nearby.

 

4. Just because the geth have been pacified, it doens't mean that the future synth intelligence will be so easily dealt with... in order to assume that the catalyst is NECESSARLY wrong you need to assume that

 

a) nobody will ever create synth like the geth (lesson learned)

if point a) fails, you need to assume that

b ) organic will mantain the tech supremacy over them foverer

if point b ) fails, you need to assume that

c) superadvance synth intelligence will never not turn aggressive/genocidal

 

In other terms, you need to assume that NO ADVANCED, AGGRESSIVE SYNTH will ever rise again in the future

 

it is dangerous to make assumption based on ever, forever and never... you could be right, but surely the opposite assumption (your children will create new aggressive synth that will evolve faster than you) is not irrational or absurd.

 

 

5. I destroy the reapers too. I don't trust any kind of synth: if I could, I would have throw EDI out of the airlock the moment she became a sexbot, taking dangerous initiative without my consent.

Personally, I (my shep) don't give  a **** about the future of the galaxy, preserving organic from synth rage and thing like that. I believe that tech singularity is a perfeclty rational, possible/plausible scenario, but I really don't care about what is going to happen in a far future. I want all my enemies (the geth, the reapers, TIM) dead here and now, and that's it.

It's how I play RPG. You have tried to kill me? So I'll kill you. No chance to see end game credits alive. I don't care if you can be useful. Geth, rachni queen, Reapers... boom boom boom.

I take it personal

[BloodyMares]

Literally any ship that was not the Geth since the end of the Morning War has never been seen again. The Council even sent ambassadors to the Geth post Morning War in an attempt to negotiate a peace treaty. They were killed on sight by the Geth. Which is why all the races of the galaxy spend so many credits keeping a highly armed Fleet at their Relay connection to the Perseus Veil.

 

Intention does matter. In fact intention is 100% what matters. Because if I shoot someone with one intention I'm a murder looking at a couple decades in jail. And another intention I'm someone simply trying to defend myself.

 

See the big they they set up in ME 1 is that no ship ever gone into there intentionally or unintentionally has never come back. Which means the Geth don't even give a warning to turn back. Then destroying ships that refuse to comply. Their first and only action is to blow it to hell. That is why the Geth were the bad guys in ME 1. The entire game set up was them being inherently hostile towards organics. They had to do some quick and simple retcon to remove the Geth are inherently hateful of organic set up when they attempted to shift the story towards the dark energy set up which necessitated a different tone.

 

Which is were I think the problems start when ME 3 steered back towards the original concept of ME 1 which is the conflict between organic and synthetic races. Though I do like what they did with the Geth in ME 2 because it make them a lot more fleshed out and interesting then just evil robots that want to kill all organics like ME 1.

And all these deaths could be easily avoided. Claim the Perseus Veil as a rogue space and shut down the relay that links there. If one attempt to negotiate fails why send any more ships? It's clear they don't want to be disturbed.

[BloodyMares]

1. it's difficult to achieve because in order to unlock it you need to have Legion alive, Tali admiral, do a few the subquest etc. So there are canon playthrough in which geth-quarian peace is not achieved.

 

2. 80%. All the geth you see (direct experience, right) except Legion are enemies in all ME1 (33%), all ME2 (33%) a a good portion of Me3 (15%). 80%, more or less. Wtf, man, 70%, 80%, 90%... who cares.

 

3. rogue VI, yes. Unimportant. Edi was a self-consciouss synth intelligence trying to kill every organic nearby.

 

4. Just because the geth have been pacified, it doens't mean that the future synth intelligence will be so easily dealt with... in order to assume that the catalyst is NECESSARLY wrong you need to assume that

 

a) nobody will ever create synth like the geth (lesson learned)

if point a) fails, you need to assume that

b ) organic will mantain the tech supremacy over them foverer

if point b ) fails, you need to assume that

c) superadvance synth intelligence will never not turn aggressive/genocidal

 

In other terms, you need to assume that NO ADVANCED, AGGRESSIVE SYNTH will ever rise again in the future

 

it is dangerous to make assumption based on ever, forever and never... you could be right, but surely the opposite assumption (your children will create new aggressive synth that will evolve faster than you) is not irrational or absurd.

1. Ah, get ya. Gameplay reasons. Arbitrary.

2. And all of them are controlled by the Reapers. Why do you discount that I have no idea.

3. Kind of important. The Luna VI wasn't sentient before Cerberus recovered its remains and added Reaper Tech™. And thus the EDI was created.
4.
a) Yeah, that's what happened in the Prothean cycle and in the current cycle with the ban of AI research.
b ) Not forever but at least during the conflict as it was the case with the quarians until Reapers helped the Geth.
c) False. "Not always" is enough to break the "Always" claim. And for "Not always" to work there needs to be at least one example of peaceful synthetics.

You want to put your words into my mouth? It's what the Catalyst does though: Without the Reapers organic life will be gone forever, organics can never solve the conflict without the Reapers. I find it strange that you have problems with absolutes and yet you defend the Catalyst.
 

[kal_reegar]

 

1. Ah, get ya. Gameplay reasons. Arbitrary.

2. And all of them are controlled by the Reapers. Why do you discount that I have no idea.

3. Kind of important. The Luna VI wasn't sentient before Cerberus recovered its remains and added Reaper Tech™. And thus the EDI was created.
4.
a) Yeah, that's what happened in the Prothean cycle and in the current cycle with the ban of AI research.
b ) Not forever but at least during the conflict as it was the case with the quarians until Reapers helped the Geth.
c) False. "Not always" is enough to break the "Always" claim. And for "Not always" to work there needs to be at least one example of peaceful synthetics.

You want to put your words into my mouth? It's what the Catalyst does though: Without the Reapers organic life will be gone forever, organics can neversolve the conflict without the Reapers. I find it strange that you have problems with absolutes and yet you defend the Catalyst.
 

 

1. No, simply the quarian-geth peace is something that you could achive, or not. Again, it is a matter of possibility, and not inevitability.

 

2. No, they were not controlled. A portion of them freely decided to side with the reapers and wipe everyone out, and another portion decided to do nothing against the heretics and/or the reapers. If it were for them, reapers would have won in ME1.

 

3. on Chronos EDI explicitly says that she gains self awarness on the moon, when she was under attack, so...

 

4. 

a) yeah, sure. The lesson is learned forever. From your notion of time-span, I'm starting to believe that you're a butterfly or something like that, man. No rules, no ban, no lesson, is foverer. If you really believe that, ok, cool, but it's a little naive, imo. I refuse to be so sugary optimistic. 

yes, of course. No way that once in a while something that in 300 years evolve from gardening robot to a galactic superpower and almost reached the dyson sphere level can surpass us ...

c) again?

Historical/sociological "Always" = soon or later it will happen again.

Scientific "always" = it will happen all the time, in every situation. 

You people don't understand the difference, or don't want to understand it, and it's pretty bad, imo

[gothpunkboy89]

And all these deaths could be easily avoided. Claim the Perseus Veil as a rogue space and shut down the relay that links there. If one attempt to negotiate fails why send any more ships? It's clear they don't want to be disturbed.

 

They don't all use Relays to get there.

[BloodyMares]

They don't all use Relays to get there.

Then it's their own damn fault. You can't babysit everyone.

[gothpunkboy89]

Then it's their own damn fault. You can't babysit everyone.

 

So your giving murder a pass because people accidentally wonder into their territory thanks to problems like navigation loss. Which rather then Geth warn then and direct them away from their space they simply shoot to kill first.

 

Is that what you are saying?

[BloodyMares]

So your giving murder a pass because people accidentally wonder into their territory thanks to problems like navigation loss. Which rather then Geth warn then and direct them away from their space they simply shoot to kill first.

 

Is that what you are saying?

Well, yes because these occasional wanderers are nowhere near the numbers that Reapers kill. Simple math.

[gothpunkboy89]

Well, yes because these occasional wanderers are nowhere near the numbers that Reapers kill. Simple math.

 

Oh so groups can kill as many people as they want as long as they don't reach Nazi level murder rates right? So what is all that big fuss about ISIS? They haven't reached Nazi level deaths yet have they? We will have to make sure we stop them once they reach that level because before that it is all harmless fun.

 

Question. Are you continuing to try and argue this point out of sense of pride? Or is it some other reason you have dug yourself a 6 foot deep hole and do not seem to want to throw down your shovel yet?

[Obadiah]

This fictional monologue from my Shepard post-Destroy (a riff on the speech from V for Vendetta) kind of encapsulates my feelings on using Destroy:

Shep: The problem is that Catalyst had been studying us for over a million years - it knew us better than we knew ourselves.

In the Decision Chamber, as it spoke, I suddenly had this feeling that everything was connected. It was like I could see the whole thing, one long chain of events, a cycle of life and violence, that I could see back from the Leviathan empire. I felt like I could see everything that had happened, and everything that was going to happen. It was like a perfect pattern laid out in front of me.

And I realized that we, Humanity, Leviathan, the Alliance, the Council, the Catalyst, were all part of it, and all trapped by it.

Other: Do you know what will happen?

Shep: No, it was a feeling. That's why I fired that horrible weapon. But I can guess, we'll build Synthetics again, and they will rebel. Maybe there will be peace, and maybe there conflict. But with so much chaos, someone, like Gavin Archer or Xen, will do something stupid.

And when they do, things will turn nasty.

And then our side will be forced to do... the only thing we know how to do.

And then...

DUN DUNNN!!!

Spoiler

[Natureguy85]

tech singularity = a quick way to indicate the moment in which synth will become super-mega advanced, unstoppable and kill everyone

 

And how what the catalyst is saying is crazy?

The geth can be turned into allies, true, but it's something very difficult to achieve, and in any case they were a big foe during the 80% of the trilogy. Every geth you met except legion tried to kill you. Every single one.

Edi was a rogue AI too.

 

The catalyst is just saying that something that have proven to be a dangerous enemy (you have direct experience about that), in the future will be again a (more and more) dangerous enemy. This is absolutely plausible. In my playthrough, before meeting the catalyst, I deliberatly destroyed the geth, because I believe that they were not trustworthy, and in the future they could be as dangerous as the reapers. I've spent 3 games killing hordes of them, and now they are my friend? No way.

You can be doubtful about tech singularity (even if it almost insignificant, your direct experience of the potential peace between organics and synthetic must be taken into account), but call it absurd, irrational etc? Wtf man

 

If they aren't turned into allies, they are destroyed. They were a foe because of the Reapers. All those Geth we fought were Reaper troops. The Luna AI went crazy and was defeated by 3 soldiers. EDI helped save her organic friends.

 

That's not what the Catalyst says at all because it isn't specific to the Geth. There's never any indication that the Geth are somehow more dangerous than any Organic opponent Shepard faces. Thinking the Geth are untrustworthy is perfectly legitimate, particularly after they make a point of showing dishonesty, or at least withholding information, by Legion. However, there is no reason to fear a tech singularity within the context of Mass Effect. You're pulling in thoughts from outside the narrative.

[BloodyMares]

Oh so groups can kill as many people as they want as long as they don't reach Nazi level murder rates right? So what is all that big fuss about ISIS? They haven't reached Nazi level deaths yet have they? We will have to make sure we stop them once they reach that level because before that it is all harmless fun.

 

Question. Are you continuing to try and argue this point out of sense of pride? Or is it some other reason you have dug yourself a 6 foot deep hole and do not seem to want to throw down your shovel yet?

Does stopping ISIS result in a much more civillian death than the ISIS attacks cause? I don't think so.  
The Reapers however when they arrived killed much more people than the Geth ever killed. It's hypocritical of the Reapers to think of themselves as saviors against the evil Geth when they kill so much people themselves.

Same question to you I guess. What hole are you talking about? I'm continuing because this is interesting. Talking about different points of view hardly counts as digging a hole.

[Natureguy85]

Oh so groups can kill as many people as they want as long as they don't reach Nazi level murder rates right? So what is all that big fuss about ISIS? They haven't reached Nazi level deaths yet have they? We will have to make sure we stop them once they reach that level because before that it is all harmless fun.

 

Question. Are you continuing to try and argue this point out of sense of pride? Or is it some other reason you have dug yourself a 6 foot deep hole and do not seem to want to throw down your shovel yet?

The problem with that analogy is that it's the Nazis coming in claiming to be saviors against the other group.

[Natureguy85]

 

4. Just because the geth have been pacified, it doens't mean that the future synth intelligence will be so easily dealt with... in order to assume that the catalyst is NECESSARLY wrong you need to assume that

 

a) nobody will ever create synth like the geth (lesson learned)

if point a) fails, you need to assume that

b ) organic will mantain the tech supremacy over them foverer

if point b ) fails, you need to assume that

c) superadvance synth intelligence will never not turn aggressive/genocidal

 

In other terms, you need to assume that NO ADVANCED, AGGRESSIVE SYNTH will ever rise again in the future

 

it is dangerous to make assumption based on ever, forever and never... you could be right, but surely the opposite assumption (your children will create new aggressive synth that will evolve faster than you) is not irrational or absurd.

 

 

I've told you many times already, but you need to realize that we don't have to assume or show that "that the Catalyst is NECESSARILY wrong." It is the one making the absolutist claim. We just have to argue that it might be wrong. It has the burden of proof, not Shepard.

[kal_reegar]

 

 

 We just have to argue that it might be wrong. It has the burden of proof, not Shepard.

 

well, of course it might be wrong! I personally believe that he is wrong.

but being potentially wrong and being crazy/irrational are two different things.

[Natureguy85]

well, of course it might be wrong! I personally believe that he is wrong.
but being potentially wrong and being crazy/irrational are two different things.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. You're changing your argument now. You've been arguing that it's our job to prove the Catalyst wrong, which it's not. Its premise is not based on any evidence in game, however rational you think it is otherwise. However its proposed solution of the Reapers certainly is.

[kal_reegar]

 

 

. You've been arguing that it's our job to prove the Catalyst wrong, which it's not. Its premise is not based on any evidence in game, however rational you think it is otherwise. However its proposed solution of the Reapers certainly is. 

 

mmm no.

It's nobody's job.

You can't prove or disprove a statement like that (an historical/sociological general, recurrent trend, over a period of hundreds of human lives).

It's just a matter of possibility, clues, subjective perception, and how much you believe it plausible.

[gothpunkboy89]

The problem with that analogy is that it's the Nazis coming in claiming to be saviors against the other group.

 

Nazi's claim they are the savior of their group

 

ISIS claim they are the savior of their group

 

Geth claim to be the savior of their group

 

Reaper claim to be the savior of their group

 

Each one in their mind is doing what is best for their respective group.

[gothpunkboy89]

Does stopping ISIS result in a much more civillian death than the ISIS attacks cause? I don't think so.  
The Reapers however when they arrived killed much more people than the Geth ever killed. It's hypocritical of the Reapers to think of themselves as saviors against the evil Geth when they kill so much people themselves.

Same question to you I guess. What hole are you talking about? I'm continuing because this is interesting. Talking about different points of view hardly counts as digging a hole.

 

And yet you are still justifying a the death of hundreds simply because someone else has a higher body count.

 

Using that logic I should be able to walk up to someone and stab them several times. And as long as they are alive I should suffer no repercussions from my actions. Because compared to people who have actually killed someone I have done less. There for I am still a saint for my actions.

 

That is kind of the hole you are digging with this line of logic.

[Obadiah]

I think the proper analogy is: game wardens on a reserve, who every once in a while let in the hunters to cull the herd so the wildlife doesn't get out of hand.

[BloodyMares]

And yet you are still justifying a the death of hundreds simply because someone else has a higher body count.

 

Using that logic I should be able to walk up to someone and stab them several times. And as long as they are alive I should suffer no repercussions from my actions. Because compared to people who have actually killed someone I have done less. There for I am still a saint for my actions.

 

That is kind of the hole you are digging with this line of logic.

So just like you are justifying the death of billions of that Reapers killed.

Argumentum ad absurdum. I'm not saying that the Geth are saint. All I'm saying is that they are a much lesser evil than the Reapers. Sure, Geth should be "punished". Quarians intended to do exactly that until the Reapers interfered.

Whatever.