2424 réponses à ce sujet

[Natureguy85]

mmm no.

It's nobody's job.

You can't prove or disprove a statement like that (an historical/sociological general, recurrent trend, over a period of hundreds of human lives).

It's just a matter of possibility, clues, subjective perception, and how much you believe it plausible.

 

Plausible isn't enough to justify the Reapers.

 

 

 

Nazi's claim they are the savior of their group

 

ISIS claim they are the savior of their group

 

Geth claim to be the savior of their group

 

Reaper claim to be the savior of their group

 

Each one in their mind is doing what is best for their respective group.

 

Except the Reapers are not doing it for "their group" but supposedly for the Organics' sake.

 

 

 

And yet you are still justifying a the death of hundreds simply because someone else has a higher body count.

 

Using that logic I should be able to walk up to someone and stab them several times. And as long as they are alive I should suffer no repercussions from my actions. Because compared to people who have actually killed someone I have done less. There for I am still a saint for my actions.

 

That is kind of the hole you are digging with this line of logic.

 

He's not justifying it. The point is that the group with the larger body count is not in a moral position to denounce and police the group with the smaller body count. They don't have the moral authority or high ground.

[gothpunkboy89]

 

Except the Reapers are not doing it for "their group" but supposedly for the Organics' sake.

 

 

He's not justifying it. The point is that the group with the larger body count is not in a moral position to denounce and police the group with the smaller body count. They don't have the moral authority or high ground.

 

And yet each group also thinks they are doing what is best for everyone. I really didn't think I needed to explain that. Nazi's though they were removing the weak link in humanity to create the ultimate super race so to speak. ISIS is literally attempting to for-fill the prophecy of the end of days so all the specific Muslims they think are good can be saved and they will be rewarded.

 

He is justifying it because I pointed out how the Geth willingly went kill all organics post Morning War without warning or any provocation if they strayed into their territory by accident or other wise. Which directly contradicts the statement that they don't want conflict with organics. Because they were more then willing to kill any organic that got to close without a moment's hesitation. The only thing that changed that was the emergence of the Reapers which presented an over whelming force the Geth couldn't handle alone. Thus forcing them to ally with other races simply to protect themselves.

[KaiserShep]

Nazi's though they were removing the weak link in humanity to create the ultimate super race so to speak.

 

 

Sweet Gorilla of Magilla, do people really believe this crap? 

[Natureguy85]

And yet each group also thinks they are doing what is best for everyone. I really didn't think I needed to explain that. Nazi's though they were removing the weak link in humanity to create the ultimate super race so to speak. ISIS is literally attempting to for-fill the prophecy of the end of days so all the specific Muslims they think are good can be saved and they will be rewarded.

 

He is justifying it because I pointed out how the Geth willingly went kill all organics post Morning War without warning or any provocation if they strayed into their territory by accident or other wise. Which directly contradicts the statement that they don't want conflict with organics. Because they were more then willing to kill any organic that got to close without a moment's hesitation. The only thing that changed that was the emergence of the Reapers which presented an over whelming force the Geth couldn't handle alone. Thus forcing them to ally with other races simply to protect themselves.

 

You didn't feel the need to explain it because that was never your point and you're trying to recover now. It's quite obvious. The only similarity between the Nazis and the Reapers is the claim to be the pinnacle of existence. Your descriptions of the group's ideologies and goals are surprisingly accurate, but that makes them more like Cerberus than the Reapers. Although with both it's hard to know if they really believed it or if it was just their argument/excuse to amass power and control over the people.

 

The Geth don't want conflict with Organics. They were defending their territory, though you can certainly argue that they were overaggressive about it. They didn't leave their space to go fight anyone and would have been happy to live in their big space hub had the Quarians not destroyed it.

 

 

 

Sweet Gorilla of Magilla, do people really believe this crap? 

 

Gothpunkboy has a very "interesting and unique" view of history.

[gothpunkboy89]

You didn't feel the need to explain it because that was never your point and you're trying to recover now. It's quite obvious. The only similarity between the Nazis and the Reapers is the claim to be the pinnacle of existence. Your descriptions of the group's ideologies and goals are surprisingly accurate, but that makes them more like Cerberus than the Reapers. Although with both it's hard to know if they really believed it or if it was just their argument/excuse to amass power and control over the people.

 

The Geth don't want conflict with Organics. They were defending their territory, though you can certainly argue that they were overaggressive about it. They didn't leave their space to go fight anyone and would have been happy to live in their big space hub had the Quarians not destroyed it.

 

 

Gothpunkboy has a very "interesting and unique" view of history.

 

Actually it fits across all the group not just isolated to Reaper and/or Cerberus.  Indiscriminate murder of organics is kind of a big starter in a war with them. If they didn't want conflict with organics they went about it in the most idiotic way possible. I didn't know the North Korea approach was the best path for peace with other people.

 

Oh what part of my history is wrong?

[Natureguy85]

I don't feel like digging up old posts, so let's start where you leave out how North Korea invaded South Korea in order to compare the Geth to them.

[gothpunkboy89]

I don't feel like digging up old posts, so let's start where you leave out how North Korea invaded South Korea in order to compare the Geth to them.

 

No I compared the Geth's action of attack first ask questions never to North Korea's tactics of arrest forigners and sentence them to hard labor and ask questions never as long it serves their purpose.

 

http://www.telegraph...-in-arrest.html

 

Because North Korea will literally drag you onto their property simply so they can do with you as they like. Similar thing happens at the DMZ when they open the boarder 2-3 South Korean solider will literally lock hands to prevent someone from the North side from grabbing the solider and pulling them into the North Korean side so they can be imprisoned or executed.

 

Which again is why I likened it to how the Geth operated. Obviously they don't grab people and pull them into Geth space but they react very similarly at that point. Though with the Geth it is instant execution with no warning.

 

Your claim they don't seek conflict with organics and only want to be left alone doesn't mesh with their actions. By that logic if I started shooting anyone who walked onto my property or any dog who **** on my lawn I should still be considered a peaceful person using this logic you have presented.

[Natureguy85]

Because North Korea will literally drag you onto their property simply so they can do with you as they like. Similar thing happens at the DMZ when they open the boarder 2-3 South Korean solider will literally lock hands to prevent someone from the North side from grabbing the solider and pulling them into the North Korean side so they can be imprisoned or executed.

Which again is why I likened it to how the Geth operated. Obviously they don't grab people and pull them into Geth space but they react very similarly at that point. Though with the Geth it is instant execution with no warning.

So they're just like North Korea except not really. Nice.

You can't say its without warning. We have no idea what actually happened to behind the veil or what was due to the regular Geth vs. The Heretics. Remember that most of our examples of the Geth destroying ships was from Mass Effect 1 before they split the Geth into two factions.

[gothpunkboy89]

So they're just like North Korea except not really. Nice.

You can't say its without warning. We have no idea what actually happened to behind the veil or what was due to the regular Geth vs. The Heretics. Remember that most of our examples of the Geth destroying ships was from Mass Effect 1 before they split the Geth into two factions.

 

Actually very much like it. Close off isolationist state that tells it self that what they are doing is for the best. While at the same time doing the absolute worst to endear themselves to anyone but themselves. And despite the absolutely aggressive stance they have it is only a possible heavy retaliation that prevents outside powers from interfering for a while. Though in stead of China it is actually the Geth themselves.

 

We actually get a lot of history of the Geth's actions before the events of ME 1 where you can chalk it up to the Heretics. Unless Sovergin showed up and recruited them right after the Morning War it wasn't all them. And the regular Geth did nothing to attempt to warn Organics of the Heretics actions.

[Natureguy85]

Actually very much like it. Close off isolationist state that tells it self that what they are doing is for the best. While at the same time doing the absolute worst to endear themselves to anyone but themselves. And despite the absolutely aggressive stance they have it is only a possible heavy retaliation that prevents outside powers from interfering for a while. Though in stead of China it is actually the Geth themselves.

 

We actually get a lot of history of the Geth's actions before the events of ME 1 where you can chalk it up to the Heretics. Unless Sovergin showed up and recruited them right after the Morning War it wasn't all them. And the regular Geth did nothing to attempt to warn Organics of the Heretics actions.

 

And where is the aggression towards the neighboring powers? Where are the weapons tests to flaunt them? Is there a Geth overlord imprisoning dissidents? You are terrible at analogies. Just stop.

 

The Geth allowed the Heretics to leave. It would have been cool to challenge Legion on not actively fighting them earlier.

[gothpunkboy89]

And where is the aggression towards the neighboring powers? Where are the weapons tests to flaunt them? Is there a Geth overlord imprisoning dissidents? You are terrible at analogies. Just stop.

 

The Geth allowed the Heretics to leave. It would have been cool to challenge Legion on not actively fighting them earlier.

 

No you just miss the point I'm making by taking some parts literally and other parts not literally. It is actually rather amazing how far you jump from what I say to what you say what I said. I've never had so many words put in my mouth before. We should have at least gone out to dinner first.

 

That being said they made no effort to learn about Heretics even if they didn't agree with them. They made no effort to contact organics about the Heretics. Post Sovereign defeat they still choose to make no contact with organics. Sending a single unit with the express purpose of finding Shepard simply so they can help themselves and no one else. As soon as that unit could no longer find Shepard it abandoned that and went on missions only about the Geth. Geth say one thing but their actions have proven other wise time and time again.

[BloodyMares]

That being said they made no effort to learn about Heretics even if they didn't agree with them. They made no effort to contact organics about the Heretics. Post Sovereign defeat they still choose to make no contact with organics. Sending a single unit with the express purpose of finding Shepard simply so they can help themselves and no one else. As soon as that unit could no longer find Shepard it abandoned that and went on missions only about the Geth. Geth say one thing but their actions have proven other wise time and time again.

You jump to the extremes. It's either "be a saint, warn everybody" or "be a mass-murderous race that kills all organics". How about something gray? Yes, the true Geth don't warn organics because they don't really care. The geth don't trust organics but it doesn't mean that they are outright hostile. They are open to the prospect of making peace but they chose to simply stay out of the conflict. Yes, it may not contribute to their good image but it's not really relevant. We're discussing if the geth mean harm and want to kill organics. They don't. The rest doesn't matter. Not being a savior doesn't mean being a killer.

[Natureguy85]

No you just miss the point I'm making by taking some parts literally and other parts not literally. It is actually rather amazing how far you jump from what I say to what you say what I said. I've never had so many words put in my mouth before. We should have at least gone out to dinner first.

 

No, your point was just terrible and I threw it in your face.

 

 

That being said they made no effort to learn about Heretics even if they didn't agree with them. They made no effort to contact organics about the Heretics. Post Sovereign defeat they still choose to make no contact with organics. Sending a single unit with the express purpose of finding Shepard simply so they can help themselves and no one else. As soon as that unit could no longer find Shepard it abandoned that and went on missions only about the Geth. Geth say one thing but their actions have proven other wise time and time again.

 

None of those things are signs of wanting to kill organics. Trying to change the argument won't work on me.

[gothpunkboy89]

You jump to the extremes. It's either "be a saint, warn everybody" or "be a mass-murderous race that kills all organics". How about something gray? Yes, the true Geth don't warn organics because they don't really care. The geth don't trust organics but it doesn't mean that they are outright hostile. They are open to the prospect of making peace but they chose to simply stay out of the conflict. Yes, it may not contribute to their good image but it's not really relevant. We're discussing if the geth mean harm and want to kill organics. They don't. The rest doesn't matter. Not being a savior doesn't mean being a killer.

 

Isn't your reasoning the Catalyst is wrong about synthetics and organics and that the Geth aren't a threat based on equal extremes?  It is a rather interesting though process you follow as well.

 

Geth were given multiple chances to extend a hand out towards Organics to attempt to show they at least mean no harm. They failed to do so time and time again. When they get into a jam and an organic offers to help them regardless of their past they lie their ass of to them time and time again for their own needs.

 

They show a fundamental lack of understanding of organics. They are highly independent and feel that no one but the Geth should be able to tell the Geth what to do. They have and will accept no restrictions to themselves other then they feel suits them.

 

There will be problems. And if enough problems start or people start trying to tell the Geth what to do it will come to blows. When it comes to blows the Geth are shown to be very unforgiving. On par with the likes of Krogan.

[BloodyMares]

Isn't your reasoning the Catalyst is wrong about synthetics and organics and that the Geth aren't a threat based on equal extremes?  It is a rather interesting though process you follow as well.

 

Geth were given multiple chances to extend a hand out towards Organics to attempt to show they at least mean no harm. They failed to do so time and time again. When they get into a jam and an organic offers to help them regardless of their past they lie their ass of to them time and time again for their own needs.

 

They show a fundamental lack of understanding of organics. They are highly independent and feel that no one but the Geth should be able to tell the Geth what to do. They have and will accept no restrictions to themselves other then they feel suits them.

 

There will be problems. And if enough problems start or people start trying to tell the Geth what to do it will come to blows. When it comes to blows the Geth are shown to be very unforgiving. On par with the likes of Krogan.

Well...not really. Reapers aside, I didn't say the Catalyst is wrong per say, I have no idea about the past cycles so I assume it may be right about them. But based on what I know about the Prothean and the current cycles, I'd say that its data is outdated at least. 

And why would they extend a hand? I said they are open to the idea but they are not craving it. The quarians started the conflict and it is the quarians that need to make a first step. The geth realize that quarians see them as a threat so why bother. Yes, they lie but Legion explains why they didn't tell the truth about their plans. Shepard may care about the geth, but others don't and wouldn't agree to help.

Elaborate please why is that a bad thing. It's called self-determination. Geth do their own thing and let organics do the same. I see no hostility.

Yes, on par. And yet the game didn't try to sell that krogan would destroy every other species and to be honest they are far more threatening than the geth. So, if we can trust the krogan with Wrex in charge, why can't we trust the geth with Legion in charge? Even the Geth VI is less hostile than Wreav.
 

[dorktainian]

The Catalyst is just plain wrong.  His reasoning is utterly bonkers.  Organics will this... Synthetics will this...  it's all garbage.  It fails to address the here and now and utterly rejects any attempts for shep to call it on its BS.  Ultimately it is indoctrinating shepard into choosing an end where the reapers survive.

[Elhanan]

The Catalyst is just plain wrong.  His reasoning is utterly bonkers.  Organics will this... Synthetics will this...  it's all garbage.  It fails to address the here and now and utterly rejects any attempts for shep to call it on its BS.  Ultimately it is indoctrinating shepard into choosing an end where the reapers survive.

And bring peace where the other options leave ruin or domination. Synthesis FTW....

[dorktainian]

And bring peace where the other options leave ruin or domination. Synthesis FTW....

no.  synthesis is not good.  look at the collectors.

[Elhanan]

no.  synthesis is not good.  look at the collectors.

That is only a combo of organic/ synthetic materials, as are the Reapers. But Synthesis allows both to understand and comprehend the other's mindset; the reason why all hostilities end.

[Reorte]

That is only a combo of organic/ synthetic materials, as are the Reapers. But Synthesis allows both to understand and comprehend the other's mindset; the reason why all hostilities end.

Believe that and you'll believe anything. It might, just might, do that if you probably destroy all individuality, and at least change everyone's brains, and both of those ideas are far more horrific than the conflicts. Even then understanding someone doesn't mean you're not going to fight them. For example two greedy (or desperate) people fighting over the same thing probably understand each other very well indeed.

Synthesis commits a real atrocity without even plausibly achieving anything.

[Elhanan]

Believe that and you'll believe anything. It might, just might, do that if you probably destroy all individuality, and at least change everyone's brains, and both of those ideas are far more horrific than the conflicts. Even then understanding someone doesn't mean you're not going to fight them. For example two greedy (or desperate) people fighting over the same thing probably understand each other very well indeed.

Synthesis commits a real atrocity without even plausibly achieving anything.

Probably = speculation; prefer info gleaned from the game itself.

[Natureguy85]

Probably = speculation; prefer info gleaned from the game itself.

Out of curiosity, do you rewrite or destroy the Heretics?

[Elhanan]

Out of curiosity, do you rewrite or destroy the Heretics?

Have done both.

[Natureguy85]

Have done both.

I'm sure, but which is your preferred one and why?

[Elhanan]

I'm sure, but which is your preferred one and why?

Depends on which Shepard is being played at the time. Some take the Paragon path of rewrite; some take the Renegade path of destruction, but it is not tied to the aligned choice itself, as all of my Shepard's are Paragons. I try and select the better RP choice depending on their personalities.

Also, I am not a fan of ME2, and have only played it a few times (eg, ca.4 times); most choices are made by the Genesis 2 DLC, or by the game itself. And seeing as we know that one choice yields better results now, this may also influence future picks.

As for how it ties with the final options, Synthesis allies the Geth that remain; heretics or not.