2483 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

Probably = speculation; prefer info gleaned from the game itself.

Speculation is not the same as complete guesswork. If the game wanders off in a different direction then unless it makes its case really well all it does is kill suspension of disbelief (or at best make me wonder what's really supposed to be going on - the EC Synthesis ending comes across entirely as a propaganda piece). Issues with a concept still exist no matter how much the writing chooses to ignore them, and players choosing to ignore them too are equally depressing.

[Han Shot First]

That is only a combo of organic/ synthetic materials, as are the Reapers. But Synthesis allows both to understand and comprehend the other's mindset; the reason why all hostilities end.

The Reapers are partly created from the indoctrinated minds of millions of their victims. Deprived of free will and individuality, these people have their minds merged with A.I. processes to create the gestalt intelligence of the Reapers, which is in turn leashed to the Catalyst's will in a master-slave relationship.

Synthesis allows that to continue, in addition to leaving the A.I. responsible for countless genocidal wars and the mass extinction of perhaps thousands of species, fully in control of a fleet of sentient warships capable of destroying all galactic life on a whim.

[Natureguy85]

Depends on which Shepard is being played at the time. Some take the Paragon path of rewrite; some take the Renegade path of destruction, but it is not tied to the aligned choice itself, as all of my Shepard's are Paragons. I try and select the better RP choice depending on their personalities.

Also, I am not a fan of ME2, and have only played it a few times (eg, ca.4 times); most choices are made by the Genesis 2 DLC, or by the game itself. And seeing as we know that one choice yields better results now, this may also influence future picks.

As for how it ties with the final options, Synthesis allies the Geth that remain; heretics or not.

Ok, so why is it ok to kill the geth there, but not with Destroy?

[Elhanan]

Speculation is not the same as complete guesswork. If the game wanders off in a different direction then unless it makes its case really well all it does is kill suspension of disbelief (or at best make me wonder what's really supposed to be going on - the EC Synthesis ending comes across entirely as a propaganda piece). Issues with a concept still exist no matter how much the writing chooses to ignore them, and players choosing to ignore them too are equally depressing.

Simply because you do not accept it does not equate to truth, or that others do accept it. Synthesis is presented in a way that many like myself do prefer over the other options.

[Elhanan]

The Reapers are partly created from the indoctrinated minds of millions of their victims. Deprived of free will and individuality, these people have their minds merged with A.I. processes to create the gestalt intelligence of the Reapers, which is in turn leashed to the Catalyst's will in a master-slave relationship.

Synthesis allows that to continue, in addition to leaving the A.I. responsible for countless genocidal wars and the mass extinction of perhaps thousands of species, fully in control of a fleet of sentient warships capable of destroying all galactic life on a whim.

Synthesis ends the need for indoctrination, as both organics and synthetics comprehend the mysteries of the other now. No more enslavement; no more need for the Catalyst to continue the cycles.

[Elhanan]

Ok, so why is it ok to kill the geth there, but not with Destroy?

Destroy ends ALL synthetic life; not only the Reapers.

[Han Shot First]

Synthesis ends the need for indoctrination, as both organics and synthetics comprehend the mysteries of the other now. No more enslavement; no more need for the Catalyst to continue the cycles.

There is nothing to suggest that the Catalyst doesn't survive the Synthesis ending. Quite the opposite in fact, since its demise is explicitly mentioned as a consequence for Destroy and Control, but not Synthesis.

The Reapers continued existence is a perpetuation of the slavery of those used to create them, since their minds remain merged with the millions of other organics and the A.I. processes used to create each Reaper.

Synthesis also perpetuates the enslavement of all the people used to create the monstrous Reaper foot soldiers.

Destroy annihilates the Catalyst, removes the Reaper threat eternally, and puts the poor slaves turned into mass murdering cybernetic machines out of their misery, all without denying people the free will to decide what to do with their own bodies. Losing EDI and the Geth is a high price to pay to be sure, but their "deaths" are not as permanent as deaths for organics. Machines can be rebuilt. EDI in fact was destroyed once before, and retained memories from her time before that "death."

[Elhanan]

There is nothing to suggest that the Catalyst doesn't survive the Synthesis ending. Quite the opposite in fact, since its demise is explicitly mentioned as a consequence for Destroy and Control, but not Synthesis.

The Reapers continued existence is a perpetuation of the slavery of those used to create them, since their minds remain merged with the millions of other organics and the A.I. processes used to create each Reaper.

Synthesis also perpetuates the enslavement of all the people used to create the monstrous Reaper foot soldiers.

Destroy annihilates the Catalyst, removes the Reaper threat eternally, and puts the poor slaves turned into mass murdering cybernetic machines out of their misery, all without denying people the free will to decide what to do with their own bodies. Losing EDI and the Geth is a high price to pay to be sure, but their "deaths" are not as permanent as deaths for organics. Machines can be rebuilt. EDI in fact was destroyed once before, and retained memories from her time before that "death."

The Catalyst may survive, but it has achieved it's purpose. It, the Reapers, and all other Synthetic life are now at peace with organics in this Galaxy. Not enslavement at all; free willed Synthesized life forms working in unison for a future peace.

[Inkvisiittori]

Destroy is the wrong choice. Catalyst tells us it won't solve anything: the cycle will continue, by choosing destroy we are only delaying the inevitable.

 

Synthesis is 'the final solution', but essentially choosing it means the synthetics succeeded in their goal of wiping out all organic life, personally I would never choose it.

 

Control is the best option. Shepard takes control of the Reaper Fleet and not only ends their attack, but also gains the most powerful fleet in the known world: it's what Illusive Man wanted, the next step for humanity, and a way to keep galactic peace and possibly end all wars. 

[Vigilant111]

Synthesis ends the need for indoctrination, as both organics and synthetics comprehend the mysteries of the other now. No more enslavement; no more need for the Catalyst to continue the cycles.

So synthesis IS a form of indoctrination? To my best understanding the purpose of indoctrination isn't to make organics understand synthetics and vice versa

[dorktainian]

synthesis and control allow the catalyst to ensure the one thing it wants.

 

Reaper survival.

 

If you destroy the reapers you destroy his army of huge killing machines, but as seen on thessia when talking to the AI, it just triggers another extinction cycle.  There are three patterns, all shown on thessia, all shown when you activate the crucible.

 

I speculated right at the beginning that the whole thing might just be a no win scenario.  Shepard cannot win.  Once the Catalyst has him there may be no way out but through one of the catalysts deluded reasoning scenarios.

 

or can he win?

 

The one thing Refuse gives shepard is the right to self determination without using reaper technology.  The crucible is more than likely reaper tech.  The citadel certainly is, as are the reapers themselves.  The petulant response of star jar "so be it" almost a middle finger to players who dare to think outside the box.

 

If the Dark energy plot had continued, would the Crucible have been the very thing that in an instant, assimilated all organisms into the reaper AI matrix to help find a solution? 

[angol fear]

Where is it shown that the catalyst wants the reaper survival ?

[Reorte]

Simply because you do not accept it does not equate to truth, or that others do accept it. Synthesis is presented in a way that many like myself do prefer over the other options.

All I am doing is looking at what it must mean, what it must involve to do that. You are just ignoring that. The game naturally raises the issue by introducting the concept. That's what science fiction very often does, but good science fiction then explores that concept and the issues and questions that arise from it. ME3 ignores them instead. I find it very sad that some people find that acceptable.

 

I have not said anything about the truth, but what I have said are the very real questions that the concept raises, and that the game does nothing whatsoever to address.

[Reorte]

The Catalyst may survive, but it has achieved it's purpose. It, the Reapers, and all other Synthetic life are now at peace with organics in this Galaxy. Not enslavement at all; free willed Synthesized life forms working in unison for a future peace.

I find it very hard to equate that with "free willed" - that's one of the issues I've been talking about. No need for actual enslavement if you can just change everyone's brains to behave the way you want, but is that really free will?

[Elhanan]

So synthesis IS a form of indoctrination? To my best understanding the purpose of indoctrination isn't to make organics understand synthetics and vice versa

In my version of the game, Indoctrination is the control of other's thinking to sway them towards paths that aid the next Harvest. No more Harvests with Synthesis.

[Elhanan]

I find it very hard to equate that with "free willed" - that's one of the issues I've been talking about. No need for actual enslavement if you can just change everyone's brains to behave the way you want, but is that really free will?

All working towards a collective goal, but as individual beings; not a hive mind, All understand one another; not hive mind control. Synthesis as presented FTW.

[Ieldra]

If, as a proponent of the Synthesis ending, I may say this:

 

Synthesis raises uncomfortable associations because the Reapers themselves are the product of an organic/synthetic synthesis, a product of upload technology, involuntary applied to the individuals of the harvested species. Now the Reaper Controller suggests another synthesis, which will also be applied regardless of the individual's opinion on the subject. It is not all that far-fetched to think that there's a catch, that the kind of Synthesis applied here will be similar to the Reaperization process in some way.

 

Of course, nowhere is this even suggested, but the association arises nonetheless. If I select the Synthesis ending nonetheless, it is because I think the chances outweigh the risks, because I am rather fond of changing the fundamentals of human existence - after all, being (just) human isn't all that great, however we like to delude ourselves into thinking so - and because I like the theme of "joining with the Other" (meaning synthetics, not the Reapers). As an aside, story logic would suggest that the catalyst dies along with Shepard, and since we have no other information I go with that.  

 

An no, nothing suggests that Synthesis results in a hive mind. People may associate that, but nowhere is it suggested.

[themikefest]

Destroy ends ALL synthetic life; not only the Reapers.

If they mean that much to you, rebuild the things.

[Elhanan]

If they mean that much to you, rebuild the things.

I can rebuild; but not resurrect. This is the difference seen between the Geth of old, and the newer ones. Synthesis means never having to kill them, or us.

Win; win....

[Natureguy85]

Destroy ends ALL synthetic life; not only the Reapers.

That's not an answer. The Geth are the strongest and largest representation of synthetic life in the series. So again I ask you, why is it okay to destroy a large number of them in Legion's loyalty mission?

[BloodyMares]

That's not an answer. The Geth are the strongest and largest representation of synthetic life in the series. So again I ask you, why is it okay to destroy a large number of them in Legion's loyalty mission?

Well, if at least one member of the robots is functioning then it's not a genocide, right?

[gothpunkboy89]

No, your point was just terrible and I threw it in your face.

 

 

 

None of those things are signs of wanting to kill organics. Trying to change the argument won't work on me.

 

No you didn't you created something else and then threw that self created creation in my face.

 

That sets up potential conflict. Conflict causes death and more conflict. Geth have the advantage in any fight. Think about how they won the Morning War. They sat around for a few months willingly being killed before starting to fight back. Dispite the Quarians having lots of military experience and going on the aggressive stance first the Geth over came all that shrugging off every lose they took and continued to advance like a god damn terminator till the Quarians were forced off their planets or face extintion at the hands of the Geth. And this is just when they were glorified VI's. 300 years later a very small portion of the Geth agreed to follow Sovergein and managed to curb stop not just Alliance Fleets but the entire Citadel Fleet. Possibly including the Flag Ship Destiny Ascenion. Doing so much damage that the Citadel had to be guarded by the relativly untouched Human Fleets for months before replacement ships from Asari, Turian and Salarians were able to be sent.

 

In both cases you couldn't have stacked the deck against the Geth anymore and yet in both cases they came out victorious or causing massive damage at the very least.

 

You keep trying to make it out to be about the Geth wanting to kill all humans. They don't need to want to kill all humans to wipe out humanity.  WWI was largely sparked due to the assassination of 1 man. Really going to assume something similar couldn't happen on the galactic scale particularly when dealing with a race that doesn't really give a **** about anyone else but themselves. And when pushed into war they don't stop till your nearly extinct.

[Elhanan]

That's not an answer. The Geth are the strongest and largest representation of synthetic life in the series. So again I ask you, why is it okay to destroy a large number of them in Legion's loyalty mission?

Because it does not end all of them; only the heretics. Destroy kills all synthetic life, even those allied to Shepard.

[gothpunkboy89]

If, as a proponent of the Synthesis ending, I may say this:

 

Synthesis raises uncomfortable associations because the Reapers themselves are the product of an organic/synthetic synthesis, a product of upload technology, involuntary applied to the individuals of the harvested species. Now the Reaper Controller suggests another synthesis, which will also be applied regardless of the individual's opinion on the subject. It is not all that far-fetched to think that there's a catch, that the kind of Synthesis applied here will be similar to the Reaperization process in some way.

 

Of course, nowhere is this even suggested, but the association arises nonetheless. If I select the Synthesis ending nonetheless, it is because I think the chances outweigh the risks, because I am rather fond of changing the fundamentals of human existence - after all, being (just) human isn't all that great, however we like to delude ourselves into thinking so - and because I like the theme of "joining with the Other" (meaning synthetics, not the Reapers). As an aside, story logic would suggest that the catalyst dies along with Shepard, and since we have no other information I go with that.  

 

An no, nothing suggests that Synthesis results in a hive mind. People may associate that, but nowhere is it suggested.

 

But how the Reapers are created at least given the limited knowledge we have still shows how very different. Besides the obvious turning the body into a slushy to be recombined to make the body of the Reaper. The memories and experiences of each person is simply copied to the Reaper's hard drive. Yea they are similar in the intent of combining synthteic and organic into a single being. But that is a lot like saying a job and slavery are the same thing.

 

And what fish hook could exist? That it will take over your mind and force you to not fight with each other and live in a galaxy with no conflict because conflict serves no logical purpose. Isn't living in a utopia were no one suffers, everyone has enough and there is no crueity all watched over by an all powerful being who enforces it's rules with being who have powers beyond our ability. Sounds like the basis of what christians consider heaven.

[BloodyMares]

And what fish hook could exist? That it will take over your mind and force you to not fight with each other and live in a galaxy with no conflict because conflict serves no logical purpose. Isn't living in a utopia were no one suffers, everyone has enough and there is no crueity all watched over by an all powerful being who enforces it's rules with being who have powers beyond our ability. Sounds like the basis of what christians consider heaven.

If people are not ready for a utopia, they will turn it into a dystopia. Google "Universe 25" and how it ended.