24 réponses à ce sujet

[Dieb]

G'day lasses & lads,

 

this is not a complaint at all, I am really just curious:

 

When designing new characters, do you have balancing them in relation to older characters in mind? Do you initially stick to following the concept of the character and worry about the quality of their resulting performance later? Are they deliberately supposed to be in a different league from the beginning?

 

I am observing that regardless of competence (judging by general behaviour such as opening doors, knowing their way around the maps, priorizing targets etc) especially with the Silent Sister, I have never once witnessed anyone struggling with her. Pala's survivability is almost perpetually self-sustaining, and her damage output is more than considerable, too (*cough* her starting skill is the bottom tree "supa-skill" of the Hunter and requires at least 7 level ups *cough*)

 

I know that Billy (?) once stated how balancing each character perfectly is not a priority when creating content - which I get - but some kits are evidently a lot more potent than others from just looking at their trees with a slight idea of how the game works; so since the devs have that knowledge plus infinity, I'm not even assuming it'd be an oversight.

 

Why am I writing this? I listened to a conversation between two group members, who argue that while they aren't useless, twin Silent Sisters would always be better than a single one paired with any other character. I don't believe that it is true in all cases, but acknowledge that it is for some, and I personally believe it shouldn't.

 

When a character is so strong that sheer overkill outclasses variety & team work, the "it's cooperative, hence less balancing" no longer cuts it, at least for me. BSN, what are your thoughts?

 

 

Thanks for listening, and have a great one today.

 

 

 

P.S.: No, I don't think the new classes should be nerfed because I hate fun. I really just want to know how their prowess comes to be, during the planning and how the BSN thinks about whichever philosophy.

[Silversmurf]

Took 40 materials to unlock them.  This was the initial justification for, and I quote from dev twitch stream "end game characters" 

[Minuos]

Number of lines of dialogue is inversely proportional to a character's capability.

 

For serious, though, I do see Silent Sisters die, but I feel like it's a lack of resistances issue. A newer player wouldn't get away with half the stuff I do as Pala, but I guess she just scales better with promotions than other characters, and I don't imagine she's as much fun without high crit chance. Saarebas has the trade-off of actually having to pay attention to use the spell you want to.

 

New characters are OP in pretty much every multiplayer game, however, more so the kind that make money by having an actual payment:content ratio, but still.

 

I'm not really against it. If newer players have a stronger-than-average character to work towards in the early days, they're more likely to stick around, which is good for the game, not that they're guaranteed to waste spend any money on it.

 

I'm just glad variety returns to the game once the new character novelty wears off.

[Kenny Bania]

lolbalance

[Domiel Angelus]

They are extremely powerful beyond all other characters once you've tricked them out or learned how they tick properly. Its the power creep that occurs when new characters come out because they want people to want them. Going back to ME3MP, the N7s were King until those darn Turians moved in and we all know it. That's exactly what has occurred here and we just need a rogue that gives Constitution using a Sword and Shield to complete the set of super build characters. 

 

This super character must be a Male Elven Grey Warden wielding a Sword and Shield that gets Warcry, Walking Fortress, Charging Bull, Livid+Unbowed, Stealth and a Wombo Combo that specifically targets Darkspawn to be on par with the two previous character builds.

[Sevumar]

It's probably a combination of things. I haven't seen anyone mention that they could be a result of better design from a team that is more comfortable and experienced. From Dragonslayer on, the new characters have stronger core concepts, better ability trees, and abilities that play together in a more natural way.

 

Some of the base characters have this feel too, but it's nowhere near as common. The trees are more likely to feel like a rearrangement of existing abilities and passives that came out of a bucket instead of being designed with that character in mind.

[Theghostof_timmy]

I imagine it's just a result of more experience with the game on the devs' part. When they made the first 12 characters, they had some abilities from SP that they had to mix and match in a way that they thought was balanced, fun, and played a role in a team. When the game was released, some combinations were more effective than others, and things like new gear and higher promotions allowed certain playstyles to become more effective than perhaps initially intended. By looking at what works and what doesn't, the devs learned new things about the game flow that they then applied to the new characters they created. The new characters aren't "better" necessarily, they are just more efficient. It's not a coincidence that the "best" of the original characters are the ones with the more efficient skill trees (ie. reaver, archer, keeper) and not trees loaded with very situational passives and difficult-to-reach abilities (templar, hunter, necromancer).

[ParthianShotX]

I'm just here because I heard the word "lass."

[JiaJM98]

Took 40 materials to unlock them.  This was the initial justification for, and I quote from dev twitch stream "end game characters" 

They aren't that "end game" at all... 40 materials, come on.

[scene_cachet]

I think the new mage might seem OP but she also makes everyone in your party OP with buffs. 

 

She is great support and it trickles down to the older characters.

 

However, would love to see the Keepers barrier cast on all players like the Serabas. 

[lcneed]

I think the new mage might seem OP but she also makes everyone in your party OP with buffs. 

 

She is great support and it trickles down to the older characters.

 

However, would love to see the Keepers barrier cast on all players like the Serabas. 

 

I would totally play the keeper more if she has group barrier (non-targeted).    I like the Saarebas because it is kind of lazy play.

[MGW7]

The new characters work, and are made knowing what does and does not work in the game.

 

The original characters were hit and miss. A lot of useless passives, a lot of abilities that don't work in the setting, and a severe limit on their utility.

 

The old characters get 4 powers each, and most of the powers don't work on their own, crippling the characters ability to work outside a highly coordinated group.

 

The new characters have more flexibility, and fit into the game better.

The Avaar gets to use up to 7 abilities in combat,

the Virtuoso can carry as many as he needs limited only by skill points,

and Isabella makes up for limited powers with great passives, and powerful utility.

 

Pala has a selection of the good powers, and the stronger passives, meaning although she is limited, she is solid, and has fewer weaknesses than the old characters.

 

The Sarabass has taken things a step farther, her passives are monstrous, her powers are potent and flexible, and she carries a selection of 12 different capabilities in one. She is built to bring he power level of a single player character, and does so effectively.

 

The newer characters were made to shine in multiplayer using the knowledge of the original successes, and failures, so they always feel better.

[Rolenka]

Parts of the Wikipedia entry explain it well:

 

Power creep is the gradual unbalancing of a game due to successive releases of new content. As new expansions or updates are released, new game mechanics, units, equipment and/or effects are introduced, usually stronger than previously existing content.

 

 

Despite what some of the article suggests, I don't believe it really happens on purpose. Unless overtly so, such as when releasing a new tier of content.

[nanotm]

dunno they nerfed the archer quite hard, pre patch one long shot generates 20 kills on peri from the one row, post patch it maybe gets one before being deflected to the floor but still generating whole map agro .....

 

serabas was massively weak until I got the pride staff and even then she's still not that great without a barrier spammer to keep her up, I know its down to not being a promotion lord but I just don't have enough hours to get there and probably never will unles they get rid of the xp cap that was added to beat people who are now using perma guard /barrier hack for full team and a dozen dmg buffs on those white lvl 20 greatswords ....... who still clear peri in under 8 mns ...... 

[Yallegro]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned this yet, but aren't new characters supposed to be the main incentive to continue playing?

 

If a class wasn't a little OP players wouldn't have jumped on them the way they did.

[Beerfish]

[Dieb]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned this yet, but aren't new characters supposed to be the main incentive to continue playing?

 

I'm not really against it. If newer players have a stronger-than-average character to work towards in the early days, they're more likely to stick around, which is good for the game, not that they're guaranteed to waste spend any money on it.

 

They are extremely powerful beyond all other characters once you've tricked them out or learned how they tick properly. Its the power creep that occurs when new characters come out because they want people to want them.

 

I am as surprised as you are.

[Robbiesan]

 

Ahhh.. the sight of seeing a Phantom not impaling.. never grows old.

[BreakJohn]

um?... personally i feel most of the "new" characters don't even stand up to the best of the originals, case in point: i love the Avaar and at one point it was my favorite kit in the game, but i'd be delusional if i thought it was better than the Reaver. yea the silent sister is easily one of the best kits in the game i'll give you that, but its not like the archer or Isabella are that far behind her. Then we come to the mages, once people get over the Saarebas's shiny newness they'll notice she isn't cut from the same cloth the other top tier kits are, sure she is good but far from great. plus with the new belts/gear/rebalancing some of the older mages(i'm looking at you AW) are now in contention for being "best mage".

[Robbiesan]

I think the new mage might seem OP but she also makes everyone in your party OP with buffs. 

 

She is great support and it trickles down to the older characters.

 

However, would love to see the Keepers barrier cast on all players like the Serabas. 

 

This.  BW pls, make it so.

[ruggie]

They're gonna nerf her barrier. So many just stand and barrier never killing anything. So annoying.

[Theghostof_timmy]

um?... personally i feel most of the "new" characters don't even stand up to the best of the originals, case in point: i love the Avaar and at one point it was my favorite kit in the game, but i'd be delusional if i thought it was better than the Reaver. yea the silent sister is easily one of the best kits in the game i'll give you that, but its not like the archer or Isabella are that far behind her. Then we come to the mages, once people get over the Saarebas's shiny newness they'll notice she isn't cut from the same cloth the other top tier kits are, sure she is good but far from great. plus with the new belts/gear/rebalancing some of the older mages(i'm looking at you AW) are now in contention for being "best mage".

The avvar was the $h!t until Nightmare came out. Then the enemies were like, "yo dawg, I herd u liek having at least one of your attacks being completely useless, so that's what I did"* On perilous he (probably)set speed records.

 

*actual quote

[Yallegro]

Yallegro, on 14 Sept 2015 - 9:47 PM, said:

I'm surprised nobody mentioned this yet, but aren't new characters supposed to be the main incentive to continue playing?

 

Minuos, on 14 Sept 2015 - 2:54 PM, said:

I'm not really against it. If newer players have a stronger-than-average character to work towards in the early days, they're more likely to stick around, which is good for the game, not that they're guaranteed to waste spend any money on it.

 

Domiel Angelus, on 14 Sept 2015 - 3:40 PM, said:

They are extremely powerful beyond all other characters once you've tricked them out or learned how they tick properly. Its the power creep that occurs when new characters come out because they want people to want them.

 

 

Wups

[Zorinho20_CRO]

Nothing beats Drellgod with  Nova/j

 

As Rolenka said,power creep in full force.Next character will be Star metal golem  carrying awakened Sha-Brythol bolter on his back.

[Domiel Angelus]

Nothing beats Drellgod with  Nova/j

 

As Rolenka said,power creep in full force.Next character will be Star metal golem  carrying awakened Sha-Brythol bolter on his back.

 

 

Nope, nope, nope. I've already called it S+S Elven Rogue/Grey Warden He'll get all the defensive powers and pretty much no offensive capability at all but hey funniest combo ever: Warcry, drag everything to one side and then when they think they're about to get a hit in.....Stealth!