151 réponses à ce sujet

[Al Foley]

The spells have changed from game to game, so now i only can take what i see in game and i see no anti magic spells. Do not count origins as the series has pretty much changed its tone, direction, writing from it. We have gone from a dark fantasy pretender to high/steampunk fanatasy.

 

So no mana clash spells anymore im afraid.

We have them in Inquisition.  Quite powerful ones to.  Anti magic magic...ahem...has been a part of the series from the very beginning.  There are speslls specifically designed to counter the spells of other mages in Inquisition.  Whereas if you are not using those spells and the enemy has mages the fights can be much *much* more difficult.  Also In the Masked Empire (A prequel book to DA I) both the Elves Fellassan and Mihril (sp?) used anti magic magic against one another.  

 

Also lol.  

[Xilizhra]

The spells have changed from game to game, so now i only can take what i see in game and i see no anti magic spells. Do not count origins as the series has pretty much changed its tone, direction, writing from it. We have gone from a dark fantasy pretender to high/steampunk fanatasy.

 

So no mana clash spells anymore im afraid. Only seekers have mana clash now, templars ability is now more about denying magic IE reinforcing reality. 

You don't see Dispel Magic? We also never see Mana Clash in-game from any Seekers, so that's a direct contradiction with "i can only take what i see in game".

[zeypher]

Game lore says otherwise, if not name me one spell from inquisition which is anti magic spell. The only example we have and that too its said and not shown is cassandra telling of what her ability is.

 

EDIT: AH crap forgot about dispel, My bad. ( doesn't play mages T_T)

 

Initially i was hoping the mages and risk of possession etc  to be dealt with like that of psykers in 40k. But sadly its not so with enough mage sided writing bias that i wish they drop this issue and move on. That is why what trespasser endings did to again create mage issues is annoying. Im tired of mage this templar that crap and i wish writers would move on as well instead of beating a dead horse with their pro mage stick.

[Shienis]

It appears that some people here got the impression I hate the mages. I don't. I only don't believe that anarchy, ehm "freedom" solves all problems.

Something like this:

 

I'd be fine with siding with the mages if they actually had a plan for blood mages/evil mages. I'd be fine if they just wanted more oversight from them and less from the templars without tearing down a salvageable institution. I've yet to see anything like "evil mages are totally still gonna be a thing here's our solution to what the templars were supposed to do." I've yet to see that which leads me to believe were supposed to accept it doesn't. That mages can't be possessed without their consent or will (see the act 1 quest with the templars being possessed). Were supposed to accept no one will ever be evil again.

Which is terrible writing.

 

Bioware gave us entire world with stories that depict good and bad sides of both factions. They described rules on which the world is running, problems it had, solutions, reasons, motivations, personalities... And at the end of Trespasser they took half of that lore and flushed it into a toilet. "It works, because we said so." - If they wanted Thedas to be magical wonderland, they shouldn't have even depict the bad side of magic (plus those valid reasons for templars to exist) at all. 

 

So enjoy your "It works, but no one knows how," and I'll have to lower my expectations for games and return my hopes to books.

[Xilizhra]

Bioware gave us entire world with stories that depict good and bad sides of both factions. They described rules on which the world is running, problems it had, solutions, reasons, motivations, personalities... And at the end of Trespasser they took half of that lore and flushed it into a toilet. "It works, because we said so." - If they wanted Thedas to be magical wonderland, they shouldn't have even depict the bad side of magic (plus those valid reasons for templars to exist) at all. 

 

So enjoy your "It works, but no one knows how," and I'll have to lower my expectations for games and return my hopes to books.

Part of this is, I suspect, because Bioware had to cancel Exalted March, and I think part of it is specifically because people complained about the mage issue getting too much focus in the plot, so they decided to get it over with as soon as possible.

[Al Foley]

It appears that some people here got the impression I hate the mages. I don't. I only don't believe that anarchy, ehm "freedom" solves all problems.

Something like this:

 

 

Bioware gave us entire world with stories that depict good and bad sides of both factions. They described rules on which the world is running, problems it had, solutions, reasons, motivations, personalities... And at the end of Trespasser they took half of that lore and flushed it into a toilet. "It works, because we said so." - If they wanted Thedas to be magical wonderland, they shouldn't have even depict the bad side of magic (plus those valid reasons for templars to exist) at all. 

 

So enjoy your "It works, but no one knows how," and I'll have to lower my expectations for games and return my hopes to books.

No it does not solve all  problems but it does tend to avoid them, and maybe even make them lower in scale.  The problem with the Templar Order is, as it stood Pre-Inquisition two fold;  One no proper checks and balances.  No one checked them, certainly not the Chantry!  Not themselves.  Nor the mages who, again, did not have any role in policing themselves.  It was simply 'Templars versus Mages' Not Templars+ Mages working together for the betterment of all of Thedas.  This metely kicked the problem up to greater and greater heights and increased tensions.  Instead of having one lunatic mage being dealt with locally you had mages becoming issues of international importance whereas entire societies rose and fell on this very issue.  

 

...This is so frustrating.  How is disbanding the Bright Hand and forming a 'College of Enchaters' a disneyland for magic?  Nowhere did I get the feeling.  Nowhere did I get the feeling that the formation of the College of Enchanters was a perfect solution where the entire magic issue has been solved once and for all.  In fact quite the opposite because it adds more complexity to an already dangerous geo political situation.  Again the driving force in the future of the series won't be Templar versus Mage but mage versus mage.  Could you imagine the pain and suffering that such ideological schisms may resort to if they can't keep their dissagreements on the proper role of magic civil?  One side, or the other, could easily turn to blood magic and we would be in a situation worse then what we found at the beginning of Inquisiton.  Again, IDK.  But what we DO know from the slides in the main game and the Tresspasser DLC is there is tension between the two groups.  If BioWare really did what you (and others) are suggesting then there would be no Circles anymore.  

[Milan92]

Shh, You're ruining the Mage hate circle jerk

 

I can taste the irony from behind my pc.

[Lady Elsa]

A chantry circle and an independent college existing in competition is not necessarily a bad thing. Especially with Cas or Leliana as divine who are not going to force anyone. It gives mages options, it encourages the pro independence mages to act responsible so they can prove to rulers and commoners alike that their alternative is viable. It also encourages the loyalist circles not to go to extremes or face members deserting. It can be a way for a better system to arise in the future without turning everything upside down in one go. Plus what would Viv do without having someone to scheme against? 

 

I can see why they wanted to streamline for continuity sake and how there might be some endings where it makes less sense but personally I think its more interesting that they end up with two groups rather than one. 

[Iakus]

It's not common sense it's in game evidence.
Right, because any choice that isn't a Bioware Approved Choice^tm isn't allowed. You can't have a world state where it's impossible to have the college of enchanters so dispite having a world state where it's impossible to have the college of enchanters here's the college of enchanters.

It's the problem of save imports, not the mage conflict.  It's impossible to make the world states too varied because then so many divergent possibilities have to be accounted for in future games.

 

We can have massively divergent choices that do not factor into future games, or we have choices that carry over with much less variety.

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

Besides part of the idea of having mages *in* the Templar Order is to decrease the reliance of Lyrium on non mage Templars. 

Also interesting but mages need lyrium as well. In lore it's their extra oomph.

 

Yeah the biggest problem in the state of affairs in Thedas pre-Inquisition was that the mages did not have a role in polcing themselves.  The Templars are all fine and dandy as an organization but let the mages join.

That would imply a lot but it's an interesting solution.
I've said it once and I'll say it again the templars need to stick around for quite some time yet. Phase them out if you want but don't just dump the entire premise.

 

Had anyone ever thought about creating an order of knight enchanters? They could be used to replace templars and they would have the duty to hunt down blood mages and finding mage children to bring to the college for necessary study. After all, knight enchanters are not only one of the strongest kinds of mages there is, they could use dispell magic like an templar can use anti magic talents. And being mages themselves would certanly make them more resonable and fair minded when it comes dealing with their own kind.

OR They could work with templars? A random group of mages is gonna be scary at first. A group of templars AND mages increases visibility.

Which is good.

-snip-

 

...This is so frustrating.  How is disbanding the Bright Hand and forming a 'College of Enchaters' a disneyland for magic? 
-snip-

The leliana as divine + mage ally ending was the disney wonderland.
As was of course ignoring canon and making the college even in situations where it simply shouldn't exist. (Vivs as divine + templar ally = allow free mages???)

 

 

Shh, You're ruining the Mage hate circle jerk

Funny thing is I don't hate mages. I'm just realistic enough to think that dumping the templars is gonna be a very bad choice.
If I could allow the mages more, but not total, governance of themselves and have the templars hang back more, while increasing mage + templar unity and visibility working for thedas so the people stop wetting themselves every time a mage poofes out some fire I'd jump on it in a heart beat.
Alas that is an option that will never exist.

Modifié par AnUnculturedLittlePotato, 16 septembre 2015 - 05:55 .

[Al Foley]

 

Also interesting but mages need lyrium as well. In lore it's their extra oomph.

 

That would imply a lot but it's an interesting solution.
I've said it once and I'll say it again the templars need to stick around for quite some time yet. Phase them out if you want but don't just dump the entire premise.

 

OR They could work with templars? A random group of mages is gonna be scary at first. A group of templars AND mages increases visibility.

Which is good.

The leliana as divine + mage ally ending was the disney wonderland.
As was of course ignoring canon and making the college even in situations where it simply shouldn't exist. (Vivs as divine + templar ally = allow free mages???)

 

 

Funny thing is I don't hate mages. I'm just realistic enough to think that dumping the templars is gonna be a very bad choice.
If I could allow the mages more, but not total, governance of themselves and have the templars hang back more, while increasing mage + templar unity and visibility working for thedas so the people stop wetting themselves every time a mage poofes out some fire I'd jump on it in a heart beat.
Alas that is an option that will never exist.

 

Extra oomph implies not needing.  

 

I never said I want to dump the entire presence in the context of DA having the Templars around make a lot of sense.  

 

Not sure how much choice they would have with at best an greatly weakened Templar Order.  I mean sure it does seem a little far fetched but I am willing to give them a bit of a pass because it is aslso possible.  

 

Who says it will never exist?  Can you tell the future or know the minds of the writers?  I ask this question only because again a lot of people seem to be assuming a lot of things from just a few epilogue slides.  The mere exisistance of Knight Enchanters In the Chantry Heirarchy as a thing, suggests that such Templar-mage unity might be a thing in the near future.  And we know from Ameridan it was in eons past.  

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

Extra oomph implies not needing.  

 

I never said I want to dump the entire presence in the context of DA having the Templars around make a lot of sense.  

 

Not sure how much choice they would have with at best an greatly weakened Templar Order.  I mean sure it does seem a little far fetched but I am willing to give them a bit of a pass because it is aslso possible.  

 

Who says it will never exist?  Can you tell the future or know the minds of the writers?  I ask this question only because again a lot of people seem to be assuming a lot of things from just a few epilogue slides.  The mere exisistance of Knight Enchanters In the Chantry Heirarchy as a thing, suggests that such Templar-mage unity might be a thing in the near future.  And we know from Ameridan it was in eons past.  

But they'll still need the same amount of lyrium. I guess it is shuffled about but still.
Finally someone see's that the templars serve a purpose and you can't just get rid of them.
How is it at best greatly weakened?
If it does exist or will exist I'd like to see it. I'd rather not guess at how everything's gonna work and if every things gonna be ok.
All we really have are epilogue slides though.

[The Baconer]

But they'll still need the same amount of lyrium. I guess it is shuffled about but still.

 

According to what?

[Lumix19]

But they'll still need the same amount of lyrium. I guess it is shuffled about but still.
Finally someone see's that the templars serve a purpose and you can't just get rid of them.
How is it at best greatly weakened?
If it does exist or will exist I'd like to see it. I'd rather not guess at how everything's gonna work and if every things gonna be ok.
All we really have are epilogue slides though.

Just replace templars with Seekers and I could probably get on board. Lyrium addiction is far too much for my taste. The Seekers are the much more viable alternative, same powers but little danger.

[Sifr]

To be honest, I'm glad that the Bright Hand was chucked in favour of the College in most worldstates... because when you really think about it, the "Bright Hand" is an even dafter sounding name than "The Circle" for a magical organisation that's supposed to command respect.

 

A rather petty reason, I know, but a good name for your brand is important.

[Bleachrude]

Question:

 

Wouldn't the College of Enchanters suffer from the same problem as many think of the Templars, namely no oversight? Technically, the Chantry and the Seekers WERE the oversight for the Tmplars (but didn't enforce that enough apparently)...but the college of enchanters doesn't have to answer to anything....

 

Why wouldn't it be more corrupt than the Templars? People point to Knight Enchanters and the belief that as mages, they would be fair and reasonable towards mages but here's the thing...they would ALSO be more biased for mages and thus be more willing to "look the other way" when mages DO bad things.

 

I mean, what was Orsino's excuse for being a douche and helping that blood mage? 

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

Question:

 

Wouldn't the College of Enchanters suffer from the same problem as many think of the Templars, namely no oversight? Technically, the Chantry and the Seekers WERE the oversight for the Tmplars (but didn't enforce that enough apparently)...but the college of enchanters doesn't have to answer to anything....

 

Why wouldn't it be more corrupt than the Templars? People point to Knight Enchanters and the belief that as mages, they would be fair and reasonable towards mages but here's the thing...they would ALSO be more biased for mages and thus be more willing to "look the other way" when mages DO bad things.

 

I mean, what was Orsino's excuse for being a douche and helping that blood mage? 

It doesn't actually solve anything.
It's the ole Who watches the watchman thing.

[Catche Jagger]

I'm... alright with the way things ended up.

My major concerns about complete mage autonomy are resolved through having the Circle still exist, and as long as templars and/or Seekers still exist, then there is still some force that can act against criminal mages or abominations.

I don't find the resultant situation to be my ideal, but it is certainly a step up from having a independent College alone.

[Xilizhra]

Question:

 

Wouldn't the College of Enchanters suffer from the same problem as many think of the Templars, namely no oversight? Technically, the Chantry and the Seekers WERE the oversight for the Tmplars (but didn't enforce that enough apparently)...but the college of enchanters doesn't have to answer to anything....

 

Why wouldn't it be more corrupt than the Templars? People point to Knight Enchanters and the belief that as mages, they would be fair and reasonable towards mages but here's the thing...they would ALSO be more biased for mages and thus be more willing to "look the other way" when mages DO bad things.

 

I mean, what was Orsino's excuse for being a douche and helping that blood mage? 

This is the situation that literally every law enforcement agency runs into; mages would be no different from city guards in the employ of nobles and the like. At worst, it's not worse than the templars, and since it eliminates the whole imprisonment/reckless-endangerment-via-Harrowing/Tranquility mess of the Circles, it has an inherent advantage.

As for Orsino, A. he wasn't actually collaborating with Quentin, and B. he feared that Meredith would Annul the Circle if she found out about Quentin.

[Bleachrude]

Maybe I haven't played the game in a while but I thought Orsino got his knowledge of how to become a harvester via Quentin.

 

More importantly, even if he (orsino) though Meredith would annul the circle, that doesn't mean he couldn't a) send a warning anonymously and/or NOT COMMUNICATE with the man. This also proves my point about mages being more sympathetic to other mages, Hell, we even see this in Inquisition when Connor is talking about the fuilt and his ellow mage basically says, "oh itisn't that important".

 

Now that I think of it...as well, doesn't the Leandra storyline take lace during Act 2 when Meredith is being affected by the red lyrium sword but is STILL sane enough to outright reject Alrik's Tranquility solution?

 

Personally, my main problem with the "free mages" is that it SHOULD result in the various governments taking over.  Again, pre Inquisition, there was no magical armsrace since the mages were under the purview of the Chantry and thus kept out of war between the nations. I cant see Neverra who have had a long history of magic users but restricted from actual use in war due to the Chantry now not deciding to use mages in war.

 

ESPECIALLY given that we know that in Neverra at the least, mages already lived wih their families (for example, given Neverra's expansion phase that it is in, why would Cassandra's uncle restrict himself from the front lines). And that still leaves out Tevinter. Some have said that the nest game is going to be mage vs mage conflict set in Tevinter (again, how isn't this a case of magic users being special snowflakes) but why would Antiva or any of the Free Marcher states be more assured with the fact that with a much reduced Templar presence to counter Tevinter. 

 

Someone said that the setting has become disneyified and I tend to agree given the reaction to what has occurred in most endings. and ironically it is the lack of reaction by national entities. We KNOW for a fact that even as modern as Ferelden is in ethics, not once during the Landsmeet do we hear an argument against Loghain about pressganging people. Imprisoning a noble - yeah, that's a negative but conscription of the common folk? Nope.

 

There's another question I actually wonder though...where the hell _IS_ the college of enchanters located? This is the same problem I had with inquisition...it basically carves its own ministate out of an existing country without negative consequences....HOW?

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

This is the situation that literally every law enforcement agency runs into; mages would be no different from city guards in the employ of nobles and the like. At worst, it's not worse than the templars, and since it eliminates the whole imprisonment/reckless-endangerment-via-Harrowing/Tranquility mess of the Circles, it has an inherent advantage.

As for Orsino, A. he wasn't actually collaborating with Quentin, and B. he feared that Meredith would Annul the Circle if she found out about Quentin.

It actually doesn't. Tevinteter still tranqualizes mages.

[Bleachrude]

I think people forget that both Tranquility and the Harrowing were originally created by the Tevinters. Tranquility as a punishment (the Chantry used it as an escape) and the Harrowing were used by both as a way to test mages against demonic influence.

 

I think people forget that Tranquility wasn't a punishment and that harrowed mages at least in the southern Chantry couldn't be made Tranquil without their consent.

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

I think people forget that both Tranquility and the Harrowing were originally created by the Tevinters. Tranquility as a punishment (the Chantry used it as an escape) and the Harrowing were used by both as a way to test mages against demonic influence.

 

I think people forget that Tranquility wasn't a punishment and that harrowed mages at least in the southern Chantry couldn't be made Tranquil without their consent.

They could actually.

[Xilizhra]

Maybe I haven't played the game in a while but I thought Orsino got his knowledge of how to become a harvester via Quentin.

 

More importantly, even if he (orsino) though Meredith would annul the circle, that doesn't mean he couldn't a) send a warning anonymously and/or NOT COMMUNICATE with the man. This also proves my point about mages being more sympathetic to other mages, Hell, we even see this in Inquisition when Connor is talking about the fuilt and his ellow mage basically says, "oh itisn't that important".

He did... before Quentin's wife died. Quentin was always a necromancer, but he didn't go crazy until his wife died and he focused all of his efforts on bringing her back. The letter in his lair was from the days when Orsino and Quentin did collaborate, but that ended before Quentin's killing spree began.

 

 

Now that I think of it...as well, doesn't the Leandra storyline take lace during Act 2 when Meredith is being affected by the red lyrium sword but is STILL sane enough to outright reject Alrik's Tranquility solution?

Meredith doesn't have the sword in Act 2.

 

 

Personally, my main problem with the "free mages" is that it SHOULD result in the various governments taking over.  Again, pre Inquisition, there was no magical armsrace since the mages were under the purview of the Chantry and thus kept out of war between the nations. I cant see Neverra who have had a long history of magic users but restricted from actual use in war due to the Chantry now not deciding to use mages in war.

 

ESPECIALLY given that we know that in Neverra at the least, mages already lived wih their families (for example, given Neverra's expansion phase that it is in, why would Cassandra's uncle restrict himself from the front lines). And that still leaves out Tevinter. Some have said that the nest game is going to be mage vs mage conflict set in Tevinter (again, how isn't this a case of magic users being special snowflakes) but why would Antiva or any of the Free Marcher states be more assured with the fact that with a much reduced Templar presence to counter Tevinter. 

 

Someone said that the setting has become disneyified and I tend to agree given the reaction to what has occurred in most endings. and ironically it is the lack of reaction by national entities. We KNOW for a fact that even as modern as Ferelden is in ethics, not once during the Landsmeet do we hear an argument against Loghain about pressganging people. Imprisoning a noble - yeah, that's a negative but conscription of the common folk? Nope.

 

There's another question I actually wonder though...where the hell _IS_ the college of enchanters located? This is the same problem I had with inquisition...it basically carves its own ministate out of an existing country without negative consequences....HOW?

It's located in Cumberland, Nevarra. That was the headquarters before the war, and it'll probably become so again.

 

The other details, I confess, would be good to know, and perhaps the next World of Thedas will tell us so. I wish they had gone into more detail. But just because they didn't doesn't mean that I think it's impossible.

 

 

It actually doesn't. Tevinteter still tranqualizes mages.

Tevinter doesn't give a damn about anyone's freedom, so this is hardly surprising.

[Bleachrude]

Unless later works changed it, not legally they couldnt.

 

Tranquility in origins was explicitly limited to mages that had not gone through the Harrowing....it was why harrowed mages that committed a crime were set to a prison (that prison Lily - Jowan's girlfriend was sent to) instead

 

Yeah, I know in Inquisition you as the inquisitor can pass judgement on one of the venatori and make them tranquil but this SHOULD not have been an option given that it was agaisnt Chantry doctrine.

 

That is also why I honestly didn't understand Cassandra's reaction and the scandal of the seekers knowing how to reverse Tranquility. In the southern chantry, only those mages that were deemed either too weak or asked for it woud be Tranquil so why would you reverse the provess...

Ironically, I can see this knowledge being more important in Tevinter where tranquility was used more capriciously.

 

re: Orsion and Quentin

You know what...I jsut checked the wikia and here's what it states.

 

During the search, letters show that Quentin entertained correspondence^[2] with a certain "O". "O" also supplied him with dangerous, presumably illegal literature he needed to complete his necromantic ritual. During the final moments of the Templar-Mage conflict in Kirkwall, it is revealed that First Enchanter Orsino knew about Quentin's research^[3].

 

Nope, definitely looks like Orsino should be considered an accessory to murder.