151 réponses à ce sujet

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

Unless later works changed it, not legally they couldnt.

 

Tranquility in origins was explicitly limited to mages that had not gone through the Harrowing....it was why harrowed mages that committed a crime were set to a prison (that prison Lily - Jowan's girlfriend was sent to) instead

 

That is also why I honestly didn't understand Cassandra's reaction and the scandal of the seekers knowing how to reverse Tranquility. In the southern chantry, only those mages that were deemed either too weak or asked for it woud be Tranquil so why would you reverse the provess...

Ironically, I can see this knowledge being more important in Tevinter where tranquility was used more capriciously.

 

"Mages that were too weak" How is that not forcing tranquility on mages? And jowan was going to be forced tranquil.

[Xilizhra]

re: Orsion and Quentin

You know what...I jsut checked the wikia and here's what it states.

 

During the search, letters show that Quentin entertained correspondence^[2] with a certain "O". "O" also supplied him with dangerous, presumably illegal literature he needed to complete his necromantic ritual. During the final moments of the Templar-Mage conflict in Kirkwall, it is revealed that First Enchanter Orsino knew about Quentin's research^[3].

 

Nope, definitely looks like Orsino should be considered an accessory to murder.

In fact, that supports only my argument. Orsino had been in correspondence with Quentin before Quentin went crazy, but he cut that off after Quentin learned about the Harvester and Orsino locked away that research. Orsino was not helping Quentin during Quentin's murder spree, Quentin was using knowledge that they had worked on before.

[Catche Jagger]

"Mages that were too weak" How is that not forcing tranquility on mages? And jowan was going to be forced tranquil.

Jowan was a blood mage. He made a choice to practice illegal magic. He made a choice which would have an obvious consequence.

[Bleachrude]

In fact, that supports only my argument. Orsino had been in correspondence with Quentin before Quentin went crazy, but he cut that off after Quentin learned about the Harvester and Orsino locked away that research. Orsino was not helping Quentin during Quentin's murder spree, Quentin was using knowledge that they had worked on before.

 

How are you getting from that quote that Orsino was in contact with Quentin BEFORE he went crazy? There's nothing indicating a) Orsino stopped conversing with Quentin there is no indication that this was BEORE he went crazy and c) Orsino explicitly knew about his research into combining women to create his wife I'm really not understaning how that wikia entry absolves Orsino at all...

 

re: Weak mages

Given that how it is supposed to work that the first enchanter and the knight commander have to agree on it, there was a check on the system (again keep in mind that even in Kirkwall, Alrik had to hide his abuse of tranquility which shows that Alrik knew he was breaking the law)

[Xilizhra]

How are you getting from that quote that Orsino was in contact with Quentin BEFORE he went crazy? There's nothing indicating a) Orsino stopped conversing with Quentin there is no indication that this was BEORE he went crazy and c) Orsino explicitly knew about his research into combining women to create his wife I'm really not understaning how that wikia entry absolves Orsino at all...

Orsino says he stopped if you interrogate him on the templar path. And since the Harvester isn't actually the same thing as Quentin's wife reanimation project at all (the latter requires very careful surgery, the former just smashes a bunch of corpses together into one undead beast), it seems incredibly unlikely that Quentin would have worked on it while he was obsessively driven to recreate his wife.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Then they should have planned better instead of annuling player's choices and shoving pro-mages ending on everyone.

 

Yeah, it is a shame. While I am a pro-mage sort of guy myself, if players are going to pick pro-Templar options, that should be reflected as well. Fair's fair, right? It seems like Bioware these days is trying to have their cake and eat it too: they're constantly harping on the notion of player agency (the whole "choices and consequences" thing) as a selling point, yet ultimately end up cutting the plot branches to make their jobs easier.

 

I have to agree. It´s disappointing to see how the different endings are being equalized into a single one with just some text variations. As it is the only choices that seem to matter and carry over in DA games are the romances, everything else gets the equal treatment so all story arcs end up the same no matter what your PC did.

 

Indeed. It's a complete waste of storytelling possibilities too, particularly as the whole Mage-Templar War was pretty much dumbed down and papered over in the core game. Having to actually deal with the implications of, say, complete freedom for mages, or a return to the Circle system, in a much more in-depth manner would have been awesome. As it is, it just feels kinda shallow and thrown together.

[Xilizhra]

Indeed. It's a complete waste of storytelling possibilities too, particularly as the whole Mage-Templar War was pretty much dumbed down and papered over in the core game. Having to actually deal with the implications of, say, complete freedom for mages, or a return to the Circle system, in a much more in-depth manner would have been awesome. As it is, it just feels kinda shallow and thrown together.

Also, impossible. The only thing that can be shown in that much depth is a single path without choice, so that would require an automatic pro-mage/pro-templar path.

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

Jowan was a blood mage. He made a choice to practice illegal magic. He made a choice which would have an obvious consequence.

The point was that a mage criminal wasn't going to be sent to aeonar but was gonna be tranq'd.

 

 

re: Weak mages

Given that how it is supposed to work that the first enchanter and the knight commander have to agree on it, there was a check on the system (again keep in mind that even in Kirkwall, Alrik had to hide his abuse of tranquility which shows that Alrik knew he was breaking the law)

How is that not forcing it on people? So 2 people need to agree to forcibly tranq a mage it's still forced.

 

Yeah, it is a shame. While I am a pro-mage sort of guy myself, if players are going to pick pro-Templar options, that should be reflected as well. Fair's fair, right? It seems like Bioware these days is trying to have their cake and eat it too: they're constantly harping on the notion of player agency (the whole "choices and consequences" thing) as a selling point, yet ultimately end up cutting the plot branches to make their jobs easier.

 

 

Indeed. It's a complete waste of storytelling possibilities too, particularly as the whole Mage-Templar War was pretty much dumbed down and papered over in the core game. Having to actually deal with the implications of, say, complete freedom for mages, or a return to the Circle system, in a much more in-depth manner would have been awesome. As it is, it just feels kinda shallow and thrown together.

Over simplifications tend to do that to stories.

 

Also, impossible. The only thing that can be shown in that much depth is a single path without choice, so that would require an automatic pro-mage/pro-templar path.

Then they shouldn't have offered it to us.

[Catche Jagger]

I don't know why everyone is shocked by how this ended up. They simply brought all of the variables more into line with the Default World State: Cass Divine, Free Mages. Now, regardless of player choice, there is an independent College and a Circle.

Is this stupid? Hell yeah. Is it surprising? No. This is just like the fate of the Inquisition. It is either disbanded entirely or weakened and put under the control of Divine Victoria. Bioware was not going to leave that many variables up in the air.

[zeypher]

I don't know why everyone is shocked by how this ended up. They simply brought all of the variables more into line with the Default World State: Cass Divine, Free Mages. Now, regardless of player choice, there is an independent College and a Circle.

Is this stupid? Hell yeah. Is it surprising? No. This is just like the fate of the Inquisition. It is either disbanded entirely or weakened and put under the control of Divine Victoria. Bioware was not going to leave that many variables up in the air.

This was always given, what annoys me and what i have stated repeatedly is that a game should have the same starting and finishing point as that allows better continuity. All the choices and consequences should happen between those two points. I hate the concept of choices carrying in to future games because it is just talk and it not feasible to do it anyways. Instead do the choice and consequence within the game itself.

[Bleachrude]

re: Jowan

 

Jowan was an apprentice and thus he could be subject to Tranquility. The reason why Irving thought Jowan should be made tranquil was that he didn't think Jowan had what it took to survive a Harrowing. Tranquility, at least in the southern chantry is NOT supposed to be a punishment and furthremore could not be used against mages that were Harrowed. It was an option for non harrowed mages since the other option was instead of possession which invariably lead to death. Again, what was a possible choice in the inquisition side quest - "Sit In Judgement" was LEGALLY not allowed according to Chantry doctrine since both Alexius and Erimond were tevinter mages and had been harrowed.

 

I do wonder though what happens to Aeonar in this new world state especially since I think many mages (outside of those from noble families) actually led something of a sheltered existence. We see in Origins and Awakening that TYPICALLY punishment is pretty harsh for example - Daveth was a thief and he was going to be hung  and in awakening, as Arl, you can mete out some pretty harsh punishment all of which would be legal (for relatively minor crimes including stealing just two bushels of corn AND desertion to check up on your family. Hell, you could execute someone based on circumstantial evidence).

 

 

Indeed, tranquility could now be argued to be a punisment since the inquisition used it as such. 

[Drasanil]

The point was that a mage criminal wasn't going to be sent to aeonar but was gonna be tranq'd.

 

As Bleachrude mentioned, Jowan was already slotted for tranquility before he became a mage criminal because he was [rightfully] deemed too much of a dingus to carry on wielding magic. That he subsequently became a criminal and further validated his dingus status doesn't change that.

 

It always grated me on how easy Jowan got off in the end, he deserved so much worse for all the crud he pulled. 

[Shienis]

re: Jowan

 

Irving didn't think of Jowan as "too weak to survive Harrowing", the reason was because Jowan turned to blood magic.

 

WOT2, page 110, Irving about Jowan:

"All mages have their strengths and weaknesses. I have known mages who were forces of nature - masters of the primal school - whom I wouldn't let near me with a healing spell or a bandage. We all have limitations; our task is to identify them and work with them. And Jowan... well, Jowan's troubles came from unmet expectation, the perceived distance between 'should' and 'is'. He never achieved things he believed were well within reach; he was disappointed in himself and thought we would be, too. We never were. If he hadn't turned into blood magic, there would have been no cause to make him Tranquil. All that happened after was a result of that decision. I think he regretted in the end, but regret counts for little. Once you take the first step into the forbidden school, there is no stepping out again."

 

(unless there's some errata somewhere that contradicts this, of course)

[Drasanil]

Thanks for clearing that up Shienis, though Jowan was still a dingus well deserving of the brand given all that happened. I do wonder why Irving left books on blood magic in the public library which apprentices could readily get their hands on? Then again maybe that was the point, catch the dolts who thought they could cheat their way ahead/past the harrowing?

[Shienis]

Thanks for clearing that up Shienis, though Jowan was still a dingus well deserving of the brand given all that happened. I do wonder why Irving left books on blood magic in the public library which apprentices could readily get their hands on? Then again maybe that was the point, catch the dolts who thought they could cheat their way ahead/past the harrowing?

 

If such books were indeed in a public part of library, then it was huge oversight from Irving's (and all senior enchanters') part. However they also might be in some area with restricted access, kept for information/research/whatever purposes and Jowan found a way to get in or convinced someone with permission *coughUldredcough* to get them for him... Hard to say what was the case here, both options are possible.

[Sifr]

Thanks for clearing that up Shienis, though Jowan was still a dingus well deserving of the brand given all that happened. I do wonder why Irving left books on blood magic in the public library which apprentices could readily get their hands on? Then again maybe that was the point, catch the dolts who thought they could cheat their way ahead/past the harrowing?

 

What better way to weed out the troublemakers who'll turn to forbidden magic, than to put a bunch of books on how to do it right in the middle of the library, with a giant arrow and massive glowing neon sign that says "Do not do this cool thing!"

 

[Drasanil]

 

If such books were indeed in a public part of library, then it was huge oversight from Irving's (and all senior enchanters') part. However they also might be in some area with restricted access, kept for information/research/whatever purposes and Jowan found a way to get in or convinced someone with permission *coughUldredcough* to get them for him... Hard to say what was the case here, both options are possible.

 

Uldred helping someone that wasn't Uldred? That even harder to believe than Irving just being incompetent or leaving the books out as a trap 

[Shienis]

Uldred helping someone that wasn't Uldred? That even harder to believe than Irving just being incompetent or leaving the books out as a trap 

 

well... true... but... theoretically... he might need a certain amount of exposed blood mages to divert attention from himself.  

[Bleachrude]

re: Jowan

 

Irving didn't think of Jowan as "too weak to survive Harrowing", the reason was because Jowan turned to blood magic.

 

WOT2, page 110, Irving about Jowan:

"All mages have their strengths and weaknesses. I have known mages who were forces of nature - masters of the primal school - whom I wouldn't let near me with a healing spell or a bandage. We all have limitations; our task is to identify them and work with them. And Jowan... well, Jowan's troubles came from unmet expectation, the perceived distance between 'should' and 'is'. He never achieved things he believed were well within reach; he was disappointed in himself and thought we would be, too. We never were. If he hadn't turned into blood magic, there would have been no cause to make him Tranquil. All that happened after was a result of that decision. I think he regretted in the end, but regret counts for little. Once you take the first step into the forbidden school, there is no stepping out again."

 

(unless there's some errata somewhere that contradicts this, of course)

 

ITHAT MAKES NO SENSE (sorry for shouting but argh....this is a contradiction)

 

In Origins, the whole point of Aeonar is because you couldn't tranquil harrowed mages and the reason why Jowan didn't take the harrowing was because he was thought to be too weak to take the harrowing. If Irving didn'tt hink there was any chance of him being made tranquil then he should have taken the harrowing.

 

 

re: World of thedas vol 2

From the various quotes posted from that book, I get the distinct impression it has some contradictions with established lore AND has a pro-mage bias.

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

Jowan was always going to be tranq'd because he was a blood mage.

[LobselVith8]

Question:

Wouldn't the College of Enchanters suffer from the same problem as many think of the Templars, namely no oversight? Technically, the Chantry and the Seekers WERE the oversight for the Tmplars (but didn't enforce that enough apparently)...but the college of enchanters doesn't have to answer to anything....

Why wouldn't it be more corrupt than the Templars? People point to Knight Enchanters and the belief that as mages, they would be fair and reasonable towards mages but here's the thing...they would ALSO be more biased for mages and thus be more willing to "look the other way" when mages DO bad things.

I mean, what was Orsino's excuse for being a douche and helping that blood mage?

Some people who disagree with the Chantry controlled Circles point to the degree of power that templars had over mages as the issue - "dominion over mages by divine right", as Cullen said.

ITHAT MAKES NO SENSE (sorry for shouting but argh....this is a contradiction)

In Origins, the whole point of Aeonar is because you couldn't tranquil harrowed mages and the reason why Jowan didn't take the harrowing was because he was thought to be too weak to take the harrowing. If Irving didn'tt hink there was any chance of him being made tranquil then he should have taken the harrowing.


re: World of thedas vol 2
From the various quotes posted from that book, I get the distinct impression it has some contradictions with established lore AND has a pro-mage bias.

Greagoir told Irving that Jowan would be made tranquil; as he can admit to the mage protagonist, it's a matter of survival. He even concedes in his dialogue that he isn't privy to the actual evidence against Jowan.

Irving's a moderate (Aequitarian), but he isn't fond of the system, which is why he may come across that way to you. As he says, "And Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all Tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness."

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

Some people who disagree with the Chantry controlled Circles point to the degree of power that templars had over mages as the issue - "dominion over mages by divine right", as Cullen said.

 

And mages will be different...how exactly? People in power will always try and use it to benefit them.

[Bleachrude]

And mages will be different...how exactly? People in power will always try and use it to benefit them.

THIS.

 

People point to the previous system as being prone to abuse but that's because the Seekers weren't doing a hood job at all. As people like to point out, if Elthina had simply done SOMETHING (even just give Meredith a stern reprimandm anything) it wouldve helped. The system HAD checks 0 the Chantry and the seekers and since neither were directly involved, at least they would be less biased (either for or against the mages as a templar would be since they lived with the mages in the circle).

 

The college of enchanters has who overseeing them now? It SHOULD lead to more abuses given simple human nature (although I'm almost 100% sure Bioware is going to portray the college of enchanters as perfectly perfect except for a bad apple here and there aka the system iteslf isn't inherently wrong but just certain individuals unlike the previous system where it seems like the problem was the system itself).

 

re: Jowan 

Again..this makes NO sense. Perhaps I'm missing something here but if irving was scared that jowan was to be made Tranquil,why exactly was Jowan kept from taking the harrowing?

[Shienis]

re: Jowan 

Again..this makes NO sense. Perhaps I'm missing something here but if irving was scared that jowan was to be made Tranquil,why exactly was Jowan kept from taking the harrowing?

 

I haven't found anything about when is the Harrowing supposed to happen for the apprentice, except it's kept secret until it comes. So I assume the First Enchanter, maybe along with senior Enchanters, choose the time when they think the apprentice is ready. So maybe Irving didn't deem Jowan ready, (at least partially because of the "I can't do it, I'm not good enough" attitude) which Jowan interpretted as unworthy. 

[LobselVith8]

And mages will be different...how exactly? People in power will always try and use it to benefit them.

Mages having autonomy is quite different than templars having "divine right" over mages, although no one pretends that it's going to be a perfect system - simply better than mages living in a toxic environment where their magic is viewed as a "curse" and they are at the mercy of a military that is taught it has dominion over them.

I'm simply giving you my input since you asked. You and I aren't going to budge on the matter, so I'm not under the impression that you or I will change the mind of the other.