41 réponses à ce sujet

[Brass_Buckles]

This is just a thought I had, because there's a faith versus doubt theme throughout Inquisition.  We are given reasons to believe in the Maker, or the elven gods, and then we are given reasons not to.  I do not think that it is accidental that at the end of Trespasser we're basically told that the ancient elven pantheon weren't gods.  I do think we might be intended to question the veracity of that rather than just accept it.  Faith vs. doubt.

 

Okay, hear me out here:

 

In Trespasser, we learn from various codex entries that Solas declared himself Not Divine, and also insisted that the other elven gods were Not Divine.

 

He told us thereafter, when we met him, that they were mages.  Not gods.  Dorian comments that they would be just like Tevinter magisters, if that were the case.  He kind of gloats over it even.

 

But, one of the major themes of Inquisition was Faith vs. Doubt.

 

Solas is one person.  People in his own time, worshiped these beings as gods.  They worshiped Solas.

 

I'm not declaring that Solas is wrong.  I'm also not declaring that he is a god, but considering he's one of the very few ancient elves left, it's feasible for modern elves to see him as such.  After all, how did he manage it when no one else did?

 

However, what makes a god a god?  These beings were beyond being just elves, even in ancient times.  They were nearly impossible to kill.  They apparently formed from spirits, or something akin to spirits, and gave themselves bodies (other than maybe Ghilan'ain who appears to have begun as a mortal--but perhaps she too was a spirit made flesh).

 

We encounter the Avvar spirit-gods in Jaws of Hakkon, and we declare them simply to be spirits.  Not gods.  But they are gods to the Avvar.  It can't be denied that they are supernatural beings that can be called upon and asked for things.  They aren't big-G Gods, but they could be perceived as minor deities of a sort.

 

The ancient elven gods might not be gods by most of our standards, but given their origins and given their nature, and just how powerful they were?  They certainly do qualify, even if Solas disagrees.  It's a matter of perception.

 

My point is, even if you're playing a Dalish who has believed in the Creators his or her entire life, that doesn't mean they have to lose all of their faith because of what Solas says, any more than an Avvar has to stop believing in their gods because you "know" they are just spirits.  There's still room for faith, even if you accept that the ancient elven pantheon were effectively selfish, evil bullies (which they appear to have been).  It's the Dread Wolf who provides this information, and he's also revealed to be the destroyer of the ancient elven world.  His is only one point of view.

 

I am not saying that the ancient elven gods were necessarily good (it appears they weren't), or worthy of worship (they probably weren't).  But I am saying that whether or not they were gods really does depend on how you look at it.  They didn't fit Solas's definition.  They don't really fit my personal definition.  But, for some of my characters, they are still awe-inspiring enough to be gods.  What I am saying is it should be up to the player to decide, and that they can decide if their character still has any faith left or not, and if so, what shape that faith now takes.

[Just My Moniker]

Glory be to the Creators! 

[Drasanil]

Praise be to Elgar'nan! First of the Gods! Master of Elven Dickishness!

 

Seriously, depending on just how powerful they are, and they seem to be near god like just from Solas' actions alone, I could see elves still worshiping them as gods. Personally I love the more nuanced flawed personality they have [Solas might also be exaggerating their evil because he opposes them on ideological grounds] as opposed to the sort of hippy-dippy vibe they gave off reading the lore in earlier games. 

[Brass_Buckles]

Praise be to Elgar'nan! First of the Gods! Master of Elven Dickishness!

 

Seriously, depending on just how powerful they are, and they seem to be near god like just from Solas' actions alone, I could see elves still worshiping them as gods. Personally I love the more nuanced flawed personality they have [Solas might also be exaggerating their evil because he opposes them on ideological grounds] as opposed to the sort of hippy-dippy vibe they gave off reading the lore in earlier games. 

 

Well, they feel more like the ancient Greek or even Norse pantheon.  Very "human" as it were.

 

But my overall point is not to say that they are or aren't gods, but that the point of having someone say "No they aren't/weren't," even though it's one of them, was to make us question.  I don't think we were supposed to blindly accept Solas's word, even though he was one of them.  Maybe even because he was one of them (he was the Dread Wolf after all).  If you were a being with godlike power, other beings with godlike power might not seem very godlike to you.

 

So yes.  I think we were supposed to question, and then roleplay our character's continued/renewed/reshaped faith or lack thereof accordingly.  Which was the point of this thread.

 

Case in point:  Our Inquisitors survived, miraculously.  They were involved in various miraculous events.  But you could always say the Maker wasn't the cause, or you could say that the Maker WAS the cause.  When you met Mythal, if you were an Andrastian, that would have possibly shaken your faith; if you were Dalish and believed in the Creators, you suddenly had more reason to believe in them.

 

Then comes Trespasser, and your Dalish faith--which already had been set up to have gotten so many things wrong--is now given even shakier ground by... Fen'harel.

 

Okay, well, if you are a firm believer as a Dalish, then why are you listening to anything from Fen'harel?  Or if you accept that Fen'harel might not be who you thought, that doesn't necessarily mean he's right in this.  He is fallible.  He accidentally ended the world, after all.  There's room for both faith (possibly even unchanged) and for doubt, as well as a fresh perspective on one's faith.  Much as that goes for Andrastianism in the main game, it goes for the Dalish beliefs in Trespasser.

 

Just some food for thought.

[Roamingmachine]

Bravo, OP. You're one of the few who actually get it judging by the topics here recently.

[rpgfan321]

Those are good food for thought.

 

And yeah, how the Inquisitor survived all those events in the game remains miraculous and hard to fathom in my opinion. Believe in the Maker or not, it is still incredible that somehow the Inquisitor was the one who interfered with Corypheus (and Solas), survived a blast that blasted everyone down to skeletons, escaped the Fade (Nightmare demon) physically twice, and lead a group so diverse in its make-up to save the world. Even as I played the game, the stakes were getting to a ridiculous level. 

 

Also what about the communities that stem from those faiths? In ancient civilizations, the gods and goddessses were important figures but the rituals, murals, and temples were built by those who worshipped them and interpreted the deities as time passed. Wouldn't those interpretations carry on the good values each of the deities represented to the people? By praying and honoring respective rituals to those gods/goddesses, people were honoring what those divine figures represented and try to reflect the same values in their every day lives. 

 

Believing in communities and group of people that stem from such worship. Wouldn't that also be a show of faith?

 

Dalish Inquisitors find out their foundation of deities to be completely wrong, and based on centuries of misinterpretation. But I don't think the findings discount the community it has brought together and the good values it has taught to generations of Dalish elves. It kept the Dalish going as a group of people with a sense of identity and purpose. Even if the facts of Dalish deities are wrong, faith can still be directed toward more to modern elves, kind of like humanism. Faith, by definition, doesn't have to be a theism. It's trust toward a set of beliefs.

[rpgfan321]

On another note, I know the Qunari Inquisitor are Tal-Vashoth from the start, but Trespasser did go deep with Qunari and their lore next to elven lore enlightenment.

 

Could the same faith crisis apply to Qunari Inquisitors? Now that they've seen first hand what the Qun are willing to do to rest of Thedas?

[Al Foley]

"What is a god, but one who is worshipped by those underneath?"  

 

Never thought I'd be quoting from the Ori so directly.  

 

But anyways, I agree. Solas is, at least as far as DA is concerned, a God in everything but name.  He wields tremendous power, is able to shape reality.  Etc.  This seems to be 'a god' and treating him as such does not lead to him being overestimated.  

[AstraDrakkar]

On another note: Bioware has done a lot to tear down the belief system of the dwarves and the elves in their games. Any theories on how and when they are gonna tear down the beliefs of the Qun and/or the Chantry?

[Ardent Blossom]

Faith and doubt are indeed central to Inquisition.

 

Here's my two cents: It is dangerous to put anyone up on a pedestal. Gods, heroes, prophets, beauties, royalty, Inquisitors...they can be dangerous people simply because of the faith and fear they inspire. That faith and fear is their true power regardless of if they are divine, powerful mages, rich beyond belief, or physically intimidating. They can use that faith and fear to control the world (for better or for worse). It is dangerous to give any one person or group of people that much power. 

 

In Inquisition people start calling the PC Your Worship and the Herald of Andraste. They even sing a hymn when you survive Haven! Your PC could very easily become a religious figure just like Andraste. Now if you role play that you believe you were chosen then ok, whatever. I think if the Herald was chosen by anyone it was likely by Mythal--another nudge at history to help her on her path to revenge.

 

Frankly, the fact that the Myth of the Herald spreads so quickly and causes the people of Thedas to so easily seek and abide by the Inquisitor's judgement on issues from who should be the new Divine to if the Grey Wardens should be exiled, made me assume every religion in Thedas is false. It is as if the writers were trying to get us to compare our PCs to Andraste just to get us to question the religions of Thedas--to show us how they may have come to be in the first place. Your character gets more and more powerful as the base game and DLCs progress. It becomes quite obvious how an outsider could perceive a powerful mage or powerful military leader as a god.

 

Throughout the base game and the DLCs we've seen how modern recollections of Thedas' past are wrong from the elven gods to Inquisitor Ameridan. Certainly Solas perspectives on the elven pantheon could be biased and not 100% accurate, but I'd assume he has a much better idea of what they were/are than modern elves do. I don't see the value in blind faith in false gods. 

 

My Inquisitor is a humanist (or whatever the pan racial version of that word would be in Thedas). She has faith in the people (and The People) and doubts anyone who claims to be more than a person. Oh, and spirits are people too! I got along a little too well with Solas. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

Yeah, that's a fair critique of what defines a god or divine figure.

 

The Creators were worshiped by people and called 'gods,' and so therefore are, if were going by a broad understanding of the term. To me the revelation about the them wasn't that they were powerful mages, but that they were tyrannical monsters that enslaved their own people, murdered one of their own for power and attempted to destroy the world for their own ends. For me personally that makes them no better than Corypheus (their actual worse, really) and thus totally undeserving of worship. Their just powerful monsters or unjust rulers to be. And I'd imagine that if the Dalsih were to find this out and discover further evidence of the history of their 'gods' than I'd hope they'd abandon them. 

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, that's a fair critique of what defines a god or divine figure.

 

The Creators were worshiped by people and called 'gods,' and so therefore are, if were going by a broad understanding of the term. To me the revelation about the them wasn't that they were powerful mages, but that they were tyrannical monsters that enslaved their own people, murdered one of their own for power and attempted to destroy the world for their own ends. For me personally that makes them no better than Corypheus (their actual worse, really) and thus totally undeserving of worship. Their just powerful monsters or unjust rulers to be. And I'd imagine that if the Dalsih were to find this out and discover further evidence of the history of their 'gods' than I'd hope they'd abandon them. 

If the history of the Chantry, or even RL religion, says anything, it's that being an obviously tyrannical monster is no obstacle to being worshiped.

[SgtSteel91]

Is it really wrong for the Dalish to worship what is essentially their own re-imagining of the Elven Gods, even if the truth was they were nothing like their stories, if it meant they could carve out their own identity and stand against assimilation from Humanity and the Qun?

[Reznore57]

My Dalish doesn't loose his faith at the end of Trespasser.

Because he just can't do it ...His stance on the Maker is , he may exist , he may not, but it's a human God .

So the whole Evanuris are like Tevinter mages , it ment to him there are no Gods watching out for the elves , and he can't accept that.

So I guess he lies to himself , and think Solas is a God , and maybe it's just some kind of test.

Mythal is also out there and just like she helped with Corypheus , she will come through and help him again if he prays enough.(Doesn't  know Mythal might have been killed , RP wise it's a good thing I think my Dalish would put his head on an oven if he knew...)

 

And I think he would probably not think too much about the other Gods...

Anyway I'm not sure how it's going to end but it's possible he would end up Andrastian in a couple of years.

[LobselVith8]

On another note: Bioware has done a lot to tear down the belief system of the dwarves and the elves in their games. Any theories on how and when they are gonna tear down the beliefs of the Qun and/or the Chantry?

Given how Inquisition handled the Chantry and the recton of Drakon? Never.

[Xilizhra]

On another note: Bioware has done a lot to tear down the belief system of the dwarves and the elves in their games. Any theories on how and when they are gonna tear down the beliefs of the Qun and/or the Chantry?

It's unnecessary. The qunari are blatantly evil and the Chantry is blatantly wrong.

[LobselVith8]

It's unnecessary. The qunari are blatantly evil and the Chantry is blatantly wrong.

I don't think that's their intention, considering how anti-Dalish the main game of Inquisition was, between the vitriol spewed against the People by main and minor characters and the blatant rectons to vilify the People (the "three mage"), while the Chantry is consistently put in a positive light by a myriad of characters we're surrounded by and the Qunari got rectons to include pro-transgender views and female fighters despite their Origins tunnel vision.

[Hellion Rex]

It's unnecessary. The qunari are blatantly evil and the Chantry is blatantly wrong.

Yeah, while the elves got entirely pooped on, the Qunari got put in a very negative light, and DAI has definitely poked some holes in the Chantry.

[SgtSteel91]

On another note: Bioware has done a lot to tear down the belief system of the dwarves and the elves in their games. Any theories on how and when they are gonna tear down the beliefs of the Qun and/or the Chantry?

 

I think they've shown enough of the Qun to say that while it may give certainty to the aimless or promises equality to the oppressed, it utterly cracks down on individuality and will stop at nothing to convert the rest of the world. As for the Chantry, Inquisition does show how ineffectual and corrupt it really is. But while you can't tear the institution down, its next leader will work to bring about much needed reforms (what kind of reforms and how they are enacted depends on who you want elected).

[rpgfan321]

Is it really wrong for the Dalish to worship what is essentially their own re-imagining of the Elven Gods, even if the truth was they were nothing like their stories, if it meant they could carve out their own identity and stand against assimilation from Humanity and the Qun?

That's a good question.

 

I think there's a codex that questions the Dalish authority on elven history and its retelling. The name I think was Keeper Gisharel of Ralaferin Clan? How much did Gisharel knew about Arlathan? Did the Keeper knowingly decide to lie? What were the early days of Dalish like? I don't think we ever meet the Ralaferin Clan in-game to know who that person is. Given the history of Dalish clans started, the elves were in a pretty bleak state: slaves, lost their pride as people, lost the foundation of elven empire, etc.

 

Given the truth behind vallaslins and the time when Dalish were starting to form, which should be the time when elvish slaves were so prevalent, I don't think the entire truth about Arlathan would have brought the modern elves together. But I guess the treatment of elves after the fall of Arlathan must have been really bad if such details were (possibly and knowingly?) lost with time.

[Hellion Rex]

Is it really wrong for the Dalish to worship what is essentially their own re-imagining of the Elven Gods, even if the truth was they were nothing like their stories, if it meant they could carve out their own identity and stand against assimilation from Humanity and the Qun?

That is a very good question. I would have issue if they were gonna worship the enslaving, mass murdering versions of their gods. But I see no issue with them worshiping the ideals they initially believed that their gods embodied.

[Xilizhra]

I don't think that's their intention, considering how anti-Dalish the main game of Inquisition was, between the vitriol spewed against the People by main and minor characters and the blatant rectons to vilify the People (the "three mage"), while the Chantry is consistently put in a positive light by a myriad of characters we're surrounded by and the Qunari got rectons to include pro-transgender views and female fighters despite their Origins tunnel vision.

The Chantry is portrayed as a barely functional obstructionist mess, and the only people who get it to work properly are the ones who rebel against it. And the Dalish themselves barely appear in Inquisition; when they do appear in the Exalted Plains, they're represented by the nicest and most reasonable clan in the series thus far (also, one you can't kill). As for the qunari, Iron Bull's dialogue with Cassandra makes it fairly clear that the qunari would declare her to be a man; that Krem is actually transgender is a convenient coincidence (also, DA2 was the one that introduced female fighters who weren't in the antaam).

[SgtSteel91]

That is a very good question. I would have issue if they were gonna worship the enslaving, mass murdering versions of their gods. But I see no issue with them worshiping the ideals they initially believed that their gods embodied.

 

Food for thought; the Old and New Testament.

[Hellion Rex]

Food for thought; the Old and New Testament.

Ooooooo, touche. And this is why I really don't pay attention to a lot of the Old Testament as a Catholic.

[Roamingmachine]

Food for thought; the Old and New Testament.

DING! DING! DING!